The teacher is picking favorites.. I'm seriously thinking of dropping out of college

[farleyknight]

I've noticed something: Most teachers have very complex intellectual needs but are still humans and have very simple emotional needs.

A little background: I'm currently taking an intro physics course. I'm not a physics major, I am a computer science major, but this seemed like an appriopriate forum, since there are a lot of math geeks who might understand my situation. Regardless, the class is a requirement, so might as well go forward with it.

The first couple tests were relatively straight foward. They were mostly like the homework we've had. I struggled to understand some of the concepts, and thanks to some helpful people in the homework forum, I actually understood it well and got 113 on the previous test.

But yesterday, our test was just enough outside the HW to put me into a fright-paralysis.. You know, deer in the headlights type of moment.. I probably bombed it, although I'm definitely not the only one.

Ruminating over the questions, I came to realize that at least one in particular was specifically designed for one student in particular, who had seemed to impress the teacher with his curiosity to learn beyond the textbook. It was a question (or set of questions) related to potential energy graphs.

Now in theory, I could have gotten it. I mean, he put up the answer sheet immediately after the test and none of the answers was terribly complicated. It was probably more my fear and lack of genuine interest in the topic that threw me off.

However, if this were a mere isolated incident, I would just blow it off and continue as if it didn't happen. But I'm beginning to notice a pattern. Let me tell you a few more stories.

Case #1: In my linear algebra class, just this last summer, the teacher began the class with a discussion of fields. Now, I knew what a field was before coming to the class, but for some reason, he goes on about it for nearly two or three classes about how fields are related to matrices and vectors. And I'm like "WTF? Why are you bringing this up?" Turns out, this guy did some research into the Riemann Zeta hypothesis for his PhD thesis, which, IIRC, is related to finite fields. I dropped the class because of a very embarrassing mistake.. Mostly due to my self esteem and depression than to my abilities.

Case #2: About 3/2 years ago, I was in my intro discrete math class. The guy was well known to be an ******* but that information was not well known to me, so I ended up in that class with only 10 other people, all of us clueless about the material. When he introduced first order logic, I found it to be very intuitive. I had been writing software for at least 3 years prior, and you ask yourself similar questions about proof of correctness. When he sees that I actually understood the concepts, despite his lack of teaching, he starts throwing in stuff even more complicated stuff, related to abstract algebra and category theory. In particular, threw in a question related to the powerset functor, which I guessed at, and almost had.. As turns out he did research in topoi, which apparently makes use of that particular functor. I drop out due to financial problems, and also because this guy starts creeping me out and staring directly at me while teaching the class.

Case #3: I retake my discrete math class, and have a much better appreciation for mathematics as a whole. I walk in there somewhat scared, but I notice this particular teacher is actually a little personable. After a few tests, I notice he doesn't go very far beyond the text, and actually makes it clear that the homework and the tests are the same format. After the 7th or 8th week, he starts throwing in ideas into the lecture that seem familar to me. I come to find out that he too was a category theorist, and was straying a little bit from the standard curiculum. I start talking to him about this strange and abstract subject and we end up pretty friendly during and after class... He throws in a few simple proofs about associativity of functions and whatnot into the tests. Needless to say, I ace all of them without a problem.

The only conclusion I can come to is that some teachers, especially the PhD's, are lonely in their ivory towers. They've studied their specialization for nearly a decade and, at the very least, want to see at least one or two out of the hoards of students that enroll become genuinely interested in the topic they are teaching. After all, they have the power, might as well try and convert a couple to their religion, right?

That said, I think the only way to "win" at the college game is to know ahead of time what the teacher's areas of research and interest are. If you're not aware of them, you're going to fall flat on your face when questions start showing up that are outside the range of the textbook.

If my derivation is correct, then teachers are nothing more than functions of their years of experience. What they have studied is what will be on the tests. So then college is not an "institution" the way federal government or standardized tests are an institution. College is way more like a church or business, where there are technical hurdles, such as knowledge and skill, but there's also the relationship between students and teachers, or even better, students, teachers, and the subject matter. As I move up to higher level courses, this relationship seems to play a more important role than the dilligence of the student alone.

I never let my schooling interfere with my education. -Mark Twain

If that is the case, then the only way I can continue my education and hold my level of self esteem is to leave school for some period of time and continue my journey as an autodidact. At some point in the future, I would return. But I wouldn't even bother to take a class unless I talked to the teacher ahead of time. And if I didn't like their attitude, I wouldn't even bother registering, even if it was a requirement.

[TMFKAN64]

I've noticed something: Most teachers have very complex intellectual needs but are still humans and have very simple emotional needs.

I've noticed something too... when I drop something, it tends to fall down, not up. I mean while we're sharing the obvious... :-)

If that is the case, then the only way I can continue my education and hold my level of self esteem is to leave school for some period of time and continue my journey as an autodidact.

There is a lot more to education than learning a bunch of facts. College is also about learning discipline and how to work with others who may have different motivations and points of view.

I hope for your sake that you are both a genius and independently wealthy. Because otherwise, I foresee a lot of difficulties for you in later life.

[ParisAsta]

Yea, they try and covert if you show that you might like the subject matter. Sometimes people are not sure what they want to do. So a little push or guidance is not always a bad thing. Also it is exciting to see someone show an interest int something that you like. I try and covert my niece every time I help her with her homework, by showing her division and other ways of doing things, other than working with a 1000 chart (she is in elementary school). I bought her a cheap telescope cause she said that she liked looking at the stars. I am not sure if she was saying that to be nice. The feeling that someone else likes, what I like was grand, thus I wish to nuture that feeling and hopefully she will learn something from it. Professors are people too, and I don't think are any different.

As for going whats outside the realm of the text book. I have taken a few physics, geology, biology classes and not once did they go outside what was written in the book. My biology professor was a Marine Biologist, she studied sharks, not one shark question came up, not one. One physics professor, astrophysicist, nothing ever came up on the test that dealt with his area of study in the subject, expect for the time where the book went over what he researched. Even then he glossed it over. Geology professor, he was all about ocean geology (or something to that nature), never came up on a test, never. He talked about the odd jobs he had as a geologist but that was about it, but it never was on a test.

If you are looking for someone to just teach the book, then that is not what college is about. It is about the ability to learn and to grasp idea's and then expand on them to work with other concepts. If need be that means using more than just your text book to supplement what you are being taught in class.

[farleyknight]

I've noticed something too... when I drop something, it tends to fall down, not up. I mean while we're sharing the obvious... :-)



There is a lot more to education than learning a bunch of facts. College is also about learning discipline and how to work with others who may have different motivations and points of view.

I hope for your sake that you are both a genius and independently wealthy. Because otherwise, I foresee a lot of difficulties for you in later life.

I work at an insurance company. We sell software to bankers. I don't make tons of money, but I'm doing fairly well, I think. I didn't have any college experience when I started, just some random software projects. I'm not 100% sure, but I think those projects have gotten the attention of my previous employers and probably outweight the fact that I'm not a college grad.

Oh yea, and I think I remember reading somewhere, on this site, that if you're not graduating from a top school, that your best bet is to work on your resume / portfolio. I think that is probably a better use of my time than pulling my hair trying to impress jaded teachers.

BTW, I do intent to finish, once I figure out how teachers actually think.

[farleyknight]

If you are looking for someone to just teach the book, then that is not what college is about. It is about the ability to learn and to grasp idea's and then expand on them to work with other concepts. If need be that means using more than just your text book to supplement what you are being taught in class.

It's hard to address this because I both agree and disagree with you.

On the one hand, truely creative thought does go beyond the text book. On the other hand, there are some ideas that you might never consider until you see it in print. I don't think I have any real passion for physics as a theory. Most of my classmates are engineering majors, and so many of the homework problems are structured in that way.

I do have a passion for physics in terms of computer simulation (of course, I'm a comp sci guy), so much so I wrote some simple particle system scripts to describe gravity. Mostly just fun, but it is a fascinating idea.

So, in that case, maybe I did go beyond the text book. But I didn't go beyond the text book in the way that the teacher wanted, which is how you're suppose to get good grades, apparently.

[seycyrus]

Buddy,

You're finding a reason to dislike every teacher/and or course. Suck it up, pass the class and move on to higher level things.

I see no evidence whatsoever that your instructor is favoring others.

[Pattonias]

A conversation with your teacher can go a long way. If you are having these problems with the course work most teachers are happy to help out a student who is interested in doing well in the course. You just have to make sure to be respectful and at least appear to be genuinely interested in the course.

I don't think these PhD's are trying to force you into their subject as much as this information is what they know. They merely like to use these examples because they have spent nearly a decade studying the topic and probably understand the class work in terms of its application to their life's work.

I think many students will find that they appreciate a teacher who can be excited about their work over a teacher who is reading to them from a book. I know I already know how to read from a book and never like it when I am paying for someone else to read to me.

[TMFKAN64]

Oh yea, and I think I remember reading somewhere, on this site, that if you're not graduating from a top school, that your best bet is to work on your resume / portfolio. I think that is probably a better use of my time than pulling my hair trying to impress jaded teachers.

What, trying to impress jaded bosses? :-)

My point was that, for better or for worse, this is how the world works. People are always more favorably inclined towards people who are interested in the same things that they are interested in... whether they are college professors or insurance company hiring managers.

[twofish-quant]

If my derivation is correct, then teachers are nothing more than functions of their years of experience. What they have studied is what will be on the tests. So then college is not an "institution" the way federal government or standardized tests are an institution. College is way more like a church or business, where there are technical hurdles, such as knowledge and skill, but there's also the relationship between students and teachers, or even better, students, teachers, and the subject matter. As I move up to higher level courses, this relationship seems to play a more important role than the dilligence of the student alone.

Pretty much, but you say this as if you think it's a bad thing when it isn't.

Also if you think that the Federal government and standardized testing is free from the influence of human relationships, then well.......

The other thing is that I think you have a very restrictive and ultimately quite self-defeating idea of what an education is. One thing that you learn in college, is that if you are doing too well in a class that means that class is too easy, and I should be trying something harder.

[Feldoh]

As you said in all of these cases, you could have gotten all of these "reach" problems right.

That's the point of school, is to teach you not only the material but how to use that material, how to apply it.

Regardless of why they are doing it the practice of making students think outside of their comfort zones is a good thing.

[farleyknight]

Buddy,

You're finding a reason to dislike every teacher/and or course. Suck it up, pass the class and move on to higher level things.


Actually, you're right, I am trying to just that. I have been battling depression for a number of years and I posted this rant to get a second opinion, since I know mine is biased.

I see no evidence whatsoever that your instructor is favoring others.

Well, that's a bit difficult one your part.. I was trying to paint a picture of what I'm experiencing, not give you all the data.. But that said, I just talked to two of my classmates, and they too bombed the test.. He might not be picking favorites, but he's definitely trying to separate the wheat from the chaff..

[twofish-quant]

BTW, I do intent to finish, once I figure out how teachers actually think.

It's really quite simple. You spend hours and hours trying to pull teeth to present material students that would rather be somewhere else, that when someone actually has some genuine interest in the material, it's quite refreshing.

[farleyknight]

What, trying to impress jaded bosses? :-)

Yes.

(Hint: Most bosses are not that bright)


My point was that, for better or for worse, this is how the world works. People are always more favorably inclined towards people who are interested in the same things that they are interested in... whether they are college professors or insurance company hiring managers.

Oh yeah, I was mildly aware of this, just didn't know deep this sentiment ran. Now I know and now I will use this to better plan my future. Thanks.

[DaleSpam]

If something so minor and so common bothers you this much then I agree, you probably should drop out. I don't see how it is anything that you haven't run into in your career, but if it bothers you in an academic setting then just stick with work.

[twofish-quant]

Well, that's a bit difficult one your part.. I was trying to paint a picture of what I'm experiencing, not give you all the data.. But that said, I just talked to two of my classmates, and they too bombed the test.. He might not be picking favorites, but he's definitely trying to separate the wheat from the chaff..

Or maybe he is just being tough. One thing that I liked about the school that I went to is that typical everyone bombed the test. There are usually a 150 points on the test, and you often are doing great if you get 70. If anyone got anywhere close to a perfect score, that meant the test was not hard enough.

[TMFKAN64]

Oh yes, thanks to twofish-quant for reminding me to comment about this...

teachers are nothing more than functions of their years of experience.

NOBODY is anything more than a function of their years of experience, regardless of what they do.

[farleyknight]

It's really quite simple. You spend hours and hours trying to pull teeth to present material students that would rather be somewhere else, that when someone actually has some genuine interest in the material, it's quite refreshing.

Bing! Now just to figure out how each particular teacher thinks, before I take the class.. Then I can take a good guess as to what will be covered on each test, and stay ahead of the game instead of fail.

[TMFKAN64]

He might not be picking favorites, but he's definitely trying to separate the wheat from the chaff..

I hope he is... that's his job, after all.

[farleyknight]

I hope he is... that's his job, after all.

Okay, okay, so suppose this is the case. I actually agree that this is how teachers should work. I watched nearly all of my classmates drop discrete math when I took it the second time. So this is something I've seen and can't necessarily disagree with.

But here is my point: I only passed the second time because I took the time (the time being about 9 months) to read other math books and try to understand how to do proofs. If this is a similar mechanism, then I would have to repeat the same pattern: Drop the class, study physics on my own terms for 3/4 of a year, and then retake the course and actually do well..

And then what about the next teacher who teaches XXX? Drop the class, study XXX for a year, then come back..

I dunno.. That would take while to finish, don't you think?

[Saladsamurai]

Okay, okay, so suppose this is the case. I actually agree that this is how teachers should work. I watched nearly all of my classmates drop discrete math when I took it the second time. So this is something I've seen and can't necessarily disagree with.

But here is my point: I only passed the second time because I took the time (the time being about 9 months) to read other math books and try to understand how to do proofs. If this is a similar mechanism, then I would have to repeat the same pattern: Drop the class, study physics on my own terms for 3/4 of a year, and then retake the course and actually do well..

And then what about the next teacher who teaches XXX? Drop the class, study XXX for a year, then come back..

I dunno.. That would take while to finish, don't you think?


Maybe you need to re-evaluate how much time you should be devoting to a particular class during the regular semester?

Do you work while you are in school? If so, how much? How much time do you really spend studying for each class?

I am not implying that you have bad study habits, but perhaps it is a possibility?

College is a full time job. If you are working full time on top of that, one of the two will probably suffer.


On a side note: Depression can be a really tough thing to deal with on your own, as I am sure you are aware. Hopefully you have some help in this regard? If not, that might be something to look into.

It's awfully tough to be motivated to work and to be motivated to study when you are not even motivated about life in general.

Wish you well. :smile:

Casey

[twofish-quant]

But here is my point: I only passed the second time because I took the time (the time being about 9 months) to read other math books and try to understand how to do proofs. If this is a similar mechanism, then I would have to repeat the same pattern: Drop the class, study physics on my own terms for 3/4 of a year, and then retake the course and actually do well..

Or you can check to see if the syllabus for that class is available, and start going through the material before the class. If it's a big enough class, you can just attend the lectures, do the homework and when you have to take the class "for real" then it should be a breeze.

[rootX]

I've noticed something: Most teachers have very complex intellectual needs but are still humans and have very simple emotional needs.

... But I wouldn't even bother to take a class unless I talked to the teacher ahead of time. And if I didn't like their attitude, I wouldn't even bother registering, even if it was a requirement.

Good comedy.

Thank you, that my day :smile:

[Pattonias]

I'm thinking that you may need to reconsider higher education as a whole. Or perhaps you could consider ITT tech. You won't have to interact with your teachers at all.

[farleyknight]

Good comedy.

Thank you, that my day :smile:

Glad I made you laugh but you probably wouldn't if you heard (and experienced) some of the horror stories I have.. Community college is the ghetto of academia and it's full of the pricks with no people skills.

Oh, if you liked that, try out this survey I just received 5 seconds ago, from my college:


8. Are you currently attending CCP * full-time or * part-time?
9. What do you feel needs to be changed or added to the Mathematics Program in order to improve the program?
10. Are you satisfied with the Math instruction you received? * Yes * No
11. Are you satisfied with the support you received from the Math faculty?
12. If yes, please give an example of the type of support you received
13. If no, what type of support were you looking for and did not receive


it goes on from there.. It's great..

[Sorry!]

I'm pretty sure this is a COMMON thing in ALL universities... weeding out of courses... take your tuition for year one but that's that. If you don't deserve to move on in the course then so be it do it again or find something else. You're gonna get no where complaining on an internet forum about it. Especially to a large group of highly intellectual people such as what we have on this forum here... (myself not included haha :smile:)

[farleyknight]

I'm pretty sure this is a COMMON thing in ALL universities... weeding out of courses... take your tuition for year one but that's that. If you don't deserve to move on in the course then so be it do it again or find something else. You're gonna get no where complaining on an internet forum about it. Especially to a large group of highly intellectual people such as what we have on this forum here... (myself not included haha :smile:)

Oh yea, I know this is just a silly rant.. This isn't the first, and probably not the last, although probably the last on this forum.. I didn't really expect this to change anything. But I did get some noteworthy replies. I just wanted to poke a hole in the whole "unbiased academia" concept.. Nothing should be too sacred to denounce.

[farleyknight]

Maybe you need to re-evaluate how much time you should be devoting to a particular class during the regular semester?

Physics has been the most demanding this semester. Most of my classmates would agree that the homework is rather tedious and time consuming, but only help you marginally to understand the ideas.

Do you work while you are in school? If so, how much? How much time do you really spend studying for each class?

I'll plead the fifth on the work part, but I study nearly 20-30 hours a week. If it wasn't for this annoying eating and sleeping routine, I'd probably be up to 50-60 hours a week.

I am not implying that you have bad study habits, but perhaps it is a possibility?

Yeah, I'm not sure.. I managed to maintain a 3.9, despite all my course withdrawls.. I think I can only maintain my composure when the teachers actually care about the students.

On a side note: Depression can be a really tough thing to deal with on your own, as I am sure you are aware. Hopefully you have some help in this regard? If not, that might be something to look into.

The only support I have for my depression is my friends, who hate the world and also constantly depressed.. We get together and have hate parties were we hate stuff.. It's great.

[Sorry!]

What I think you should do is man up and grow some balls. Not everyone in this world is rooting for you and not everyone is going to or has to care for you. Hopefully things work out for you in life.

[Moonbear]

I hope he is... that's his job, after all.

EXACTLY!!! I think the problem the OP is having is he hasn't decided yet if he'd rather be the wheat or the chaff. Let's see, university faculty teaching on subjects they actually research and know well, and teach current material rather than regurgitating the textbook you could have read for yourself...oh, the horror! :rolleyes: Most people would be cheering to have the pleasure of such a course, not whining about it. You don't seem to be saying there's anything wrong with the exams, they all seem to cover material included in lecture or other assignments, and the chief complaint seems to be that they challenged the students. That's the POINT of exams, to challenge students, not just hand everyone an A for showing up.

[farleyknight]

EXACTLY!!! I think the problem the OP is having is he hasn't decided yet if he'd rather be the wheat or the chaff. Let's see, university faculty teaching on subjects they actually research and know well, and teach current material rather than regurgitating the textbook you could have read for yourself...oh, the horror! :rolleyes: Most people would be cheering to have the pleasure of such a course, not whining about it. You don't seem to be saying there's anything wrong with the exams, they all seem to cover material included in lecture or other assignments, and the chief complaint seems to be that they challenged the students. That's the POINT of exams, to challenge students, not just hand everyone an A for showing up.

Hi there Mr. Moonbear. You seem to be late for the party. You'd see that the problem I describe is a bit more complicated than that. If I wanted an A for reading the book, I'd take liberal arts. No. I want an A for reading the advanced books, too. And also for doing hard problems. If the assigned book is not advanced, and it doesn't have hard problems, then it's like feeding a grown man apple sauce for months and wondering why he can't win in a boxing match.

Go back and read (or re-read) my original post, and particularly cases #1-3. Those are examples that I have seen personally where the instructor took material from other sources in order to "beef up" the test. My conjecture is that this teacher is doing this as well, and keeping fully in mind that one student in particular has already read and understands material from one of these other sources.

[Pengwuino]

That said, I think the only way to "win" at the college game is to know ahead of time what the teacher's areas of research and interest are. If you're not aware of them, you're going to fall flat on your face when questions start showing up that are outside the range of the textbook.

No. If a professor gives you a question outside of the scope of the class in an exam, and you have other students who can confirm this, you have grounds to bring it to the attention of the chair of the department. I can't imagine this being acceptable in any department.


If that is the case, then the only way I can continue my education and hold my level of self esteem is to leave school for some period of time and continue my journey as an autodidact. At some point in the future, I would return. But I wouldn't even bother to take a class unless I talked to the teacher ahead of time. And if I didn't like their attitude, I wouldn't even bother registering, even if it was a requirement.

You're going to have to deal with being taught or under people you don't like, that's life. If you drop out of school, then you... well, gotta live life as a college dropout... in return for avoiding a couple annoying occasions in classes. hardly worth it in my opinion.

[farleyknight]

No. If a professor gives you a question outside of the scope of the class in an exam, and you have other students who can confirm this, you have grounds to bring it to the attention of the chair of the department. I can't imagine this being acceptable in any department.

Haha.. you know what..? This guy IS the department head! It's life great??

You're going to have to deal with being taught or under people you don't like, that's life. If you drop out of school, then you... well, gotta live life as a college dropout... in return for avoiding a couple annoying occasions in classes. hardly worth it in my opinion.

Well, I might not drop out entirely, but I might take an extended amount of time off to figure out my next move. If sucking up to the teachers and learning their history makes you a likable student, which in turn gives you a good grade, then it would behoove me to do so, with consistent studying being the baseline.

[lisab]

Well, I might not drop out entirely, but I might take an extended amount of time off to figure out my next move. If sucking up to the teachers and learning their history makes you a likable student, which in turn gives you a good grade, then it would behoove me to do so, with consistent studying being the baseline.

Perhaps you're right. I've found there's nothing like minimum-wage, low-status, hard-labor jobs to really motivate you to swallow your pride and do what you need (not want) to do, in order to reach your goals.

[farleyknight]

Perhaps you're right. I've found there's nothing like minimum-wage, low-status, hard-labor jobs to really motivate you to swallow your pride and do what you need (not want) to do, in order to reach your goals.

Hi Lisab! Actually, I agree with you, but you may not have read all the posts on this thread: I'm already employed as a software engineer, making an okay-ish living, so I don't have to worry about that. But yes, you're right, minimum wage sucks enough to motivate most people.

[Cyrus]

What school do you go to?

[lisab]

Hi Lisab! Actually, I agree with you, but you may not have read all the posts on this thread: I'm already employed as a software engineer, making an okay-ish living, so I don't have to worry about that. But yes, you're right, minimum wage sucks enough to motivate most people.

Yeah, you're right, I've been following this thread just on an off all day, as I was at work.

So are you tied (geographically or otherwise) to this particular college?

[farleyknight]

Yeah, you're right, I've been following this thread just on an off all day, as I was at work.

So are you tied (geographically or otherwise) to this particular college?

Actually, it's more of a financial tie. I started before I was doing software, and wanted to save money. But in the process, I've learned that it's a really crappy place to do much of anything, unless you're just going for a certification in nursing or something.. It's a 2-year school. If you're a Philly resident you'd know about CCP, I'm sure.

If/when I finish at this place, there is a 4-year school in the area (Temple University) where most of my courses will transfer. I was talking to a friend of mine who managed to finish up his courses and move onto to that school and told me that 1) the computer science faculty is much better (it's joke where I'm at) and 2) the physics guys are actually reasonable if physics isn't your major.

Actually he went Drexel, Temple & CCP, and told me that his intro physics classes where tougher at CCP than at Drexel, which practically floored me because Drexel is a brand name for you (physics) guys, I'm sure!

So I think I might transfer sooner rather than later.. But I'm not sure yet..

[lisab]

Actually, it's more of a financial tie. I started before I was doing software, and wanted to save money. But in the process, I've learned that it's a really crappy place to do much of anything, unless you're just going for a certification in nursing or something.. It's a 2-year school. If you're a Philly resident you'd know about CCP, I'm sure.

If/when I finish at this place, there is a 4-year school in the area (Temple University) where most of my courses will transfer. I was talking to a friend of mine who managed to finish up his courses and move onto to that school and told me that 1) the computer science faculty is much better (it's joke where I'm at) and 2) the physics guys are actually reasonable if physics isn't your major.

Actually he went Drexel, Temple & CCP, and told me that his intro physics classes where tougher at CCP than at Drexel, which practically floored me because Drexel is a brand name for you (physics) guys, I'm sure!

So I think I might transfer sooner rather than later.. But I'm not sure yet..

It might be worth the small application fee to go ahead and apply, even if you're not sure you want to go yet. If you're accepted, it will be an option that you don't have now.

[farleyknight]

Wow, that's some very good advice.. I had thought about that, but wasn't quite sure.. I'll probably give that a go next time I get a free weekday off.

Thanks for reading my horrible rant and giving me some level-headed advice!

[lisab]

Wow, that's some very good advice.. I had thought about that, but wasn't quite sure.. I'll probably give that a go next time I get a free weekday off.

Thanks for reading my horrible rant and giving me some level-headed advice!

You're welcome, and the best of luck to you.

[Pattonias]

Congrats on the fairly epic rant. I have one about how Matt Damon is one of the most overrated actors of all time. I think in future rants you should avoid trying to argue with the people who are trying to give you honest advice. It seems pretty obvious as this thread progressed that you had already decided on your course of action and did not really want or need any input.

As a college student, I feel a lot of similar frustrations. I think this will be a problem wherever you go though as these problems seem to be fairly typical. Eventually, you will need to just suck it up and drive on.

[Saladsamurai]

Congrats on the fairly epic rant. I have one about how Matt Damon is one of the most overrated actors of all time. I think in future rants you should avoid trying to argue with the people who are trying to give you honest advice. It seems pretty obvious as this thread progressed that you had already decided on your course of action and did not really want or need any input.

As a college student, I feel a lot of similar frustrations. I think this will be a problem wherever you go though as these problems seem to be fairly typical. Eventually, you will need to just suck it up and drive on.


I can reply for the OP on this one: "Oh yeah... I already know all that. I just <insert meaningless response here>"

I am seeing a pattern to all of his responses.

[arildno]

University courses are NOT just to hasten students through a standard curriculum; it is ALSO a winnowing process whereby active researchers become aware of students with particular potentials.

Science is NOT some objective, floating-about system; rather, it is composed of numerous RESEARCH GROUPS that through interaction on a daily basis are able to advance science a little bit within their primary field of research.

The PhD's are NOT generally lonely and neurotic, but they ared definitely out looking for someone they could prssure the university into employing as a new resource.

As long as the lecturer does not stray too far from the topic at hand, I don't see any problem with their techniques for checking out future colleagues.

[Moonbear]

I'll probably give that a go next time I get a free weekday off.


This is still sounding very non-committal. I think you have already made up your mind that you aren't ready or motivated for college and need time off. It comes through in every response you make here. So, you know yourself best...take the time off. Maybe you'll get a new outlook about education and change your mind later and go back, or maybe you'll just decide it isn't something you're really all that interested in doing and not return. I'm pretty sure you're just looking for validation of your decision, and I'll give it to you...if you really aren't motivated to learn what is being taught in your courses, you are wasting your time and money and denying a seat in the classroom for someone who is more motivated. So, drop out. Just don't blame it on the teachers, other students, or any other circumstances. Realize it is your decision based on what motivates you and interests you. There is no obligation to attend college, so if it isn't the right thing for you, don't do it.

[farleyknight]

Wow.. Thank you for your response Mr. Moonbear. But I feel like you're more replying out of emotions then a genuine critique. You seem to be skipping over some important points I've made like you did last time.. Regardless, even though coming back to this thread is like beating a dead horse, I feel I must respond..

This is still sounding very non-committal. I think you have already made up your mind that you aren't ready or motivated for college and need time off.

Well it shouldn't sound non-committal. I have physics 5 days out of the week, so I don't have a day off.. erg.. let me stop being hateful for a moment.

It comes through in every response you make here. So, you know yourself best...take the time off. Maybe you'll get a new outlook about education and change your mind later and go back, or maybe you'll just decide it isn't something you're really all that interested in doing and not return. I'm pretty sure you're just looking for validation of your decision, and I'll give it to you...if you really aren't motivated to learn what is being taught in your courses, you are wasting your time and money and denying a seat in the classroom for someone who is more motivated. So, drop out. Just don't blame it on the teachers, other students, or any other circumstances. Realize it is your decision based on what motivates you and interests you. There is no obligation to attend college, so if it isn't the right thing for you, don't do it.

Ok, just to restate one of my points, the purpose of this rant was to make it clear that academia is just as prone to politics and favoritism as is any other human institution. I know at least a few teachers who have cracked jokes on how stupid and corrupt business people are.. Well, guess what? So are teachers! Get off your high horse. Power corrupts, no matter where it is, even if it's worshiping logic instead of mammon.

But that said, if climbing the academic ladder is like climbing the corporate ladder, than I will just have to step back and rethink my approach, thus the need for time off. It's clear that "being smart" is only half the game to get where I want to go.

[arildno]

It's Ms. Moonbear, by the way! :smile:

[farleyknight]

It's Ms. Moonbear, by the way! :smile:

Whoops, sorry about that!

[BobG]

EXACTLY!!! I think the problem the OP is having is he hasn't decided yet if he'd rather be the wheat or the chaff. Let's see, university faculty teaching on subjects they actually research and know well, and teach current material rather than regurgitating the textbook you could have read for yourself...oh, the horror! :rolleyes: Most people would be cheering to have the pleasure of such a course, not whining about it. You don't seem to be saying there's anything wrong with the exams, they all seem to cover material included in lecture or other assignments, and the chief complaint seems to be that they challenged the students. That's the POINT of exams, to challenge students, not just hand everyone an A for showing up.

No. If a professor gives you a question outside of the scope of the class in an exam, and you have other students who can confirm this, you have grounds to bring it to the attention of the chair of the department. I can't imagine this being acceptable in any department.


University courses are NOT just to hasten students through a standard curriculum; it is ALSO a winnowing process whereby active researchers become aware of students with particular potentials.

Science is NOT some objective, floating-about system; rather, it is composed of numerous RESEARCH GROUPS that through interaction on a daily basis are able to advance science a little bit within their primary field of research.

The PhD's are NOT generally lonely and neurotic, but they ared definitely out looking for someone they could prssure the university into employing as a new resource.

As long as the lecturer does not stray too far from the topic at hand, I don't see any problem with their techniques for checking out future colleagues.

Interesting cross section on what tests are supposed to accomplish. Actually, I agree with Pengwuino.

When you're developing a course, the first thing you should do is figure out what the objectives are; what the student should know or be capable of doing at the end of the course.

The second thing you should do is figure out how you can tell if the student has met the course objectives - in other words, write your tests.

After your tests are written, you should develop the lectures, labs, homework, etc with the goal of making sure the student is capable of meeting the objectives (provided he does the work, of course).

This doesn't mean the tests have to be simple regurgitation of facts, either. It just means the student should have seen similar type "challenges" long before the test came along. In other words, the tests shouldn't present anything new.

The "challenges" and "bait" for finding new talent is something that should be initially presented in labs, homework assignments, and projects - not the tests. In other words, they should take place in an environment where the student can do a little outside research or ask some questions.

Letting professors write their own tests is a recipe for disaster, and not just because the tests might be too hard. Within a specific program, some courses are prerequisites for the next course down the line. If the professor veers from the expected course objectives to teach their own favorite subjects, then the next professor is faced with a problem: spend time teaching his students material they should have learned last course or just plow ahead and tell the students they need to catch up on their own as quickly as possible? If the second class is also a prerequisite for another course, can the professor even afford to do the former without dooming his entire class to being unprepared for the next course?

And what does a professor do when a third of their class has already been taught half the material in the course, but is totally unprepared for the other half (the professor in the prerequisite course really, really liked some of the material, so they didn't have time for the other stuff)? A third of their class is just plain unprepared (a different professor in the prerequisite course was the "easy" professor that all the students liked)? A third of their class knows the basics, just as the course objectives were designed to do?

[arildno]

I might agree with the penguin that when it comes to the actual EXAMS, then a more conservative and standardized way of testing should be employed.

But, as I read the OP, it was not JUST about the exam per se, but also had grievances about the lectures and the interaction between the teacher and the students.

I don't see why the teacher can't use his lectures in a course to broach topics possible tangential to the core curriculum, but central to the research group(s) on that university

[NeoDevin]

Bob and Pengwuino,
The professor must cover the material of the course, yes, and the tests must test that material. On these I agree with you. But to say that a professor shouldn't be able to extend the material a little, give some applications from their own research I can't agree with. In my view, most of an exam should be devoted to covering the material in the course, with a small portion (say, 5-10% ish) for extensions. This allows the exam to differentiate between students who actually understand the material, and can apply it to new problems from those who just memorized the textbook.

[BobG]

Bob and Pengwuino,
The professor must cover the material of the course, yes, and the tests must test that material. On these I agree with you. But to say that a professor shouldn't be able to extend the material a little, give some applications from their own research I can't agree with. In my view, most of an exam should be devoted to covering the material in the course, with a small portion (say, 5-10% ish) for extensions. This allows the exam to differentiate between students who actually understand the material, and can apply it to new problems from those who just memorized the textbook.

We only have a difference of where those types of things should be presented, not on whether they should be presented. Is it a matter of "you understand the material or you don't" (the test option) or a matter of "here's an opportunity to build an understanding of what we've taught you" (presenting it on a lab, project, or extra homework problem)?

And I think labs, projects, and homework can be part of a student's grade, so there's still differentiation. And, believe me, even when presented in an environment where they could figure this out with some extra work, there's plenty of students that will just accept the lower grade. In fact, I think some would rather get the test option. Having the opportunity to figure something out and still accepting the lower grade just makes them feel like the losers they are.

I don't see why the teacher can't use his lectures in a course to broach topics possible tangential to the core curriculum, but central to the research group(s) on that university

If those topics are central to research groups on that university, the entire department ought to be on the same page. Students shouldn't be punished by the 'minority' research group searching for a little respect among the rest of the department.

In any event, it's not broaching tangential subjects that are the problem. The professor just has to have enough discipline that everyone (including the other professors) knows what to expect from students that complete his courses.

[Pattonias]

TBO I have never had a class that the problems you are describing were as severe as you say they are. Perhaps a different university would suit you better.

[farleyknight]

I might agree with the penguin that when it comes to the actual EXAMS, then a more conservative and standardized way of testing should be employed.

But, as I read the OP, it was not JUST about the exam per se, but also had grievances about the lectures and the interaction between the teacher and the students.

I don't see why the teacher can't use his lectures in a course to broach topics possible tangential to the core curriculum, but central to the research group(s) on that university

Actually, I don't see why they can't either. I'm glad you read my OP because while I am complaining, I have more to say than just "the tests are hard". Some people are making me out to be like some whiny baby. No, I'm a whiny adult!

Anyways, as far as research topics brought up in a sophomore level intro course, I actually can't say I completely disagree. It's just that, it seem counterintutive that when you ask the question "What do I have to do to well in the course?" The response ends up being "Screw that copy of Lang - Intro to Linear Algebra.. Go buy a copy of Abstract Algebra - Dummit and Foote!" And guess what, I like abstract algebra..! So I'm not so much complaining about should/shouldn't this material be brought up but more complaining about is it implicit/explicit that this will be brought up.

If I had known that elementary quantum theory was going to be on my physics test, I would have went out and bought some books on it and started reading it. Actually they mentioned a book briefly during the lecture, I can't remember the name of it, but it had to do with kinetic energy being negative because certain particles had velocities that were complex values, not real values in the macroscopic world. So the potential energy equation on the test looked like a wild animal compared to the stuff in our text book.

It's one of those things: If you're quick on your feet and know the stuff like the back of your hand, you might know what's going on and probably pick up on the new ideas right away. On the other hand, the question wasn't some brand new original idea, just a standard question from a more advanced book you haven't read yet.. If you say that advanced text book, you'd know exactly what the teacher was doing..

I hope that makes my position more clear.

[BobG]

TBO I have never had a class that the problems you are describing were as severe as you say they are. Perhaps a different university would suit you better.

What does TBO mean? To be objective? To be obnoxious? To be opulent? To be ornery? To be ordained? To be olfactory? To be obfuscutatory? (the urban dictionary is just no help on this one)

Actually, I'm surprised one person could come with as many examples as the OP did and some of those are kind of weak. Those sort of problems are definitely the exception, but you're really lucky if you've never seen it happen.

[farleyknight]

What does TBO mean? To be objective? To be obnoxious? To be ordained?

Actually, I'm surprised one person could come with as many examples as the OP did and some of those are kind of weak. Those sort of problems are definitely the exception, but you're really lucky if you've never seen it happen.

Perhaps they are weak, I agree.. I might be tearing a great big gap out of a very small pinhole. But nevertheless, this is what teachers use to gauge your level of ability.. and I take any measurement of that pretty seriously.

[Noxide]

I don't understand.

Are you surprised that people with Ph.D's in Organic Chemistry teach organic chemistry rather than the philosophy of basket weaving?

[Saladsamurai]

Go study already!

[NeoDevin]

I think there should be some extension type questions on the exam, though obviously not the majority. They should test the students' ability to apply the material in ways that they have not necessarily seen before. However, they shouldn't be what differentiates a good student from a poor one, but rather what differentiates a good student from a great one.

A poor, but basic understanding of the material should get a student a passing mark, C or B- or so. Knowing just the material presented in class, but knowing it really well should be enough to get ~B+ or A- or so, to get an A or A+, I would expect the students to be able to take that material and apply it to new situations.

Obviously this is with the caveat that the new problem types presented on the exam are actually solvable with the material covered in class.

[NeoDevin]

Anyways, as far as research topics brought up in a sophomore level intro course, I actually can't say I completely disagree. It's just that, it seem counterintutive that when you ask the question "What do I have to do to well in the course?" The response ends up being "Screw that copy of Lang - Intro to Linear Algebra.. Go buy a copy of Abstract Algebra - Dummit and Foote!" And guess what, I like abstract algebra..! So I'm not so much complaining about should/shouldn't this material be brought up but more complaining about is it implicit/explicit that this will be brought up.
...
It's one of those things: If you're quick on your feet and know the stuff like the back of your hand, you might know what's going on and probably pick up on the new ideas right away. On the other hand, the question wasn't some brand new original idea, just a standard question from a more advanced book you haven't read yet.. If you say that advanced text book, you'd know exactly what the teacher was doing..

Put it this way, to do well in the course, you should know the Intro book well. To do exceptionally in the course, you should either know beyond that (study the Abstract Algebra book) or be able to apply the concepts in new situations as you go. Personally I have always assumed it was implicit that one or two such questions would be on the test.