Should we get vaccinated?

[DaveC426913]

Simple question:
Do you believe everyone who can do so should get vaccinated, or no?

[waht]

Simple question:
Do you believe everyone who can do so should get vaccinated, or no?

Only if you have stocks in the company producing the vaccines.

[Evo]

Yes, you should get vaccintaed. I get vaccinated every year and do not get sick.

Like I said in another thread, even if you personally don't care if you get the flu, you could infect someone that could die from it.

My employer offers free vaccinations in our office evey year, and no one gets sick. this year, due to the media hype, that had to order thousands of extra vaccines because they maxed out on the appointments so quickly.

I'd like people that vote no to say why.

Are you afraid of getting vaccinated, and if yes, why are you afraid?

[lisab]

I recently had H1N1, I think. It wasn't severe at all, in my case. I missed two days of work.

But as far as I know, I've never had the seasonal flu. Everyone I know who has had it (the real thing, not a cold or food poisoning) says it's just horrible, aches and pains and fever for many days, sometimes over a week.

A few years ago a coworker was on chemo, and we were asked to get a seasonal flu vaccination (voluntarily). So I did, of course, and with no ill effects.

I get one every year now. Perhaps I'll get through my whole life and never get the flu :smile:.

[Moonbear]

If you work in a healthcare setting, around children, have any susceptibility of respiratory illnesses (asthma, smoker, past history of pneumonia after flu), then definitely get vaccinated. If you are otherwise healthy, it's optional, and might be best to leave the vaccine available to those who need it more. There are some issues for those who may be immuno-compromised, and should discuss it with a physician. They're more susceptible to catching flu and having serious complications, but also are susceptible to serious complications from the vaccination too. If you have an egg allergy, absolutely do not get it (the vaccines are still made in eggs).

To me, the risk of an adverse reaction to the vaccination (and there is always a risk) needs to be carefully weighed against the risk of developing the illness or serious complications from it.

That, and the vaccine isn't even available here yet, and my students already are spreading the H1N1 flu around, so I figure by the time it's available, it'll be a waste of time and money...I'll either have had the flu, or been exposed and be immune from exposure. I think they're distributing it to health and EMS workers first.

Evo, your anectdotal evidence is only that. I have NEVER gotten a seasonal flu vaccine, and also have not gotten sick with seasonal flu. Most of us already have immunity to a lot of flus just from all of our childhood exposures.

[DaveC426913]

I'd like people that vote no to say why.It's over-hyped - a knee-jerk reaction. It's just the flu. Hundreds of people die every year from flu yet they are not hyped like this.

[Evo]

It's over-hyped - a knee-jerk reaction. It's just the flu. Hundreds of people die every year from flu yet they are not hyped like this.I absolutely agree that this flu is over hyped, see my posts here http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=348634

At the same time, I think getting a flu shot, if you are not allergic, is a smart thing to do. When I switched companies I found it odd that almost no one gets sick in the winter, then I found out two years later that almost everyone that works there gets flu shots. Now I get them too.

[*-<|:-D=<-<]

Sure, if you want to get a Microsoft funded CIA super-duper drug company microchip installed in your brain through your blood stream (yes Windows 7 is that good apparently) so our evil lizard crocodile overlords can monitor you from their evil-inside-dormant-volcano-castle™ (*death lasers sold separately), then go ahead!

On a more serious note I will be getting the vaccine when I can, news channels reports it's just hit Norway kind of big.

[Pinu7]

I am still a teenager so I still have an irrational shot-phobia.

I will not get it as long as I can still convince my mom that "the H1N1 vaccine will have a 100% chance of causing AIDS."

[rootX]

It's over-hyped - a knee-jerk reaction. It's just the flu. Hundreds of people die every year from flu yet they are not hyped like this.

but then there was Spanish Flu

[Evo]

To me, the risk of an adverse reaction to the vaccination (and there is always a risk) needs to be carefully weighed against the risk of developing the illness or serious complications from it..Isn't the risk of problems from the flu actually higher than the risk of serious adverse reactions to the vaccine?

[jimmysnyder]

I'm getting the vaccine. I figure at my age what's the chance I'll become autistic?

[Moonbear]

Isn't the risk of problems from the flu actually higher than the risk of serious adverse reactions to the vaccine?

No, because the flu going around is actually very mild. The incidence of severe complications is low, even if the media is hyping it as something more than that. Keep in mind that one of the vaccines being used is a nasal spray which is a LIVE vaccine, not an attenuated vaccine. In many areas, it's the only version of the vaccine available. There is a risk that the live vaccine itself can infect you with the flu, especially if you are in one of the at-risk populations.

Now, in the other thread, you mentioned the risk of spreading flu to someone who is more susceptible, and that is why health care workers are being asked to get vaccinated, as is anyone who works or lives with someone susceptible. But, the best thing anyone can do to avoid infecting anyone else is just to stay home if they think they have flu, and not return until they are cleared by a doctor. And, it is helpful if employers are reasonable about their sick time policies and allow any employees who need to stay home longer to do so. As I'm telling my students, if they get sick, the first thing they need to do is get better. If they feel better but aren't cleared to return to classes yet, and want to get caught up from home, I'm helping them get make-up work by email. If necessary, I'll give them incompletes so they have extra time to catch up if they are out for an extended time and can't catch up before the end of the semester (though, I think they are getting more studying done while stuck home in bed than when they are well and running around socializing).

If it was the swine flu I caught this summer, the biggest reason it's going to spread easily is that it doesn't make you all that sick. That means people are more likely to keep going to work while they have it, and just think they have a cold rather than flu. And, more people will catch it this year because it's different enough from other flus that most people don't already have immunity.

[GeorginaS]

I knew there is a potential for a reaction to the seasonal flu vaccination, but it's a killed virus. It's my understanding (and of course there's a very good chance I'm entirely wrong) that contracting the disease from the inoculation doesn't happen. I got the seasonal flu shot last year because I was travelling out of country during flu season and our Travel Health Clinic recommended it. I got the seasonal flu shot this year because one of my co-workers is receiving chemo treatments and we're asking everyone in the office to do their best to take extra precautions because he has a compromised immune system. (We even managed to get our building to install hand sanitiser dispensers at the front and back doors of the building.)

And, we'll all get H1N1 vaccination too. It just got approved in Canada this past week, and they're asking healthy people to hold off until high-risk people get their shots first.

All flu shots are free to everyone this year. Generally they're free to high risk people, and we other folks pay for ours. There was a loophole to that, though, where all you had to do was say you were around high-risk people and you'd get your shot for free. I paid for mine. I don't mind contributing.

But should you get it? My GP always argued, no, that perfectly healthy people should not. He was high-risk being a GP and all, and he didn't get flu shots, because he wanted his body to develop its own immunities to the bugs. He didn't ever catch the flu in the eighteen years I've known him. I haven't ever had a flu shot prior to last year either and not had problems. A couple of friends of mine, who didn't get flu shots last year, and got the flu and said they wished someone would have put them out of their misery. I guess the muscle/joint/bone pain is pretty incredible. So, I don't know. There's a load of anecdotal evidence in both directions. And, with the seasonal flu shot, they're only guessing at which few pose the greatest risk any given year but don't always guess right, and a totally different strain takes off like mad.

H1N1, though, they do know is circulating and, while it's no worse than any other in terms of the effects of it, it has already crossed back from humans to pigs once again. So getting some relatively safe exposure to help build immunity before it mutates and crosses species yet again (if it hasn't already) is likely a good plan. And the more people who have immunity to a particular disease, the better off we all are, because then, even the people who aren't inoculated benefit from herd immunity.

I can't say I'm yet a believer in the seasonal flu vaccination, because there are too many variables in terms of what may or may not hit. (Plus, I get wicked swelling in my arm from that shot that makes me whine a great deal.) But I think a H1N1 shot is a good plan because it is one specific disease we know is behaving weirdly and we need to give the most vulnerable in our populations the most help and best chance we can.

[Moonbear]

I'm getting the vaccine. I figure at my age what's the chance I'll become autistic?

Actually, I have a friend with autistic children who is really struggling with whether to get them the vaccine or not. They have very altered immune systems, and have severe reactions to vaccinations. But, they are also in one of the populations of high risk for complications from the swine flu. We were just talking about this the other day. She said that she's not surprised people believe vaccines cause autism if they didn't notice the autism before the childhood vaccines were given. Her children were already clearly demonstrating signs of autism prior to any childhood vaccines, but had severe and bizarre reactions to the vaccines that set them back..so bad she thought one of them had a stroke. She has been looking into it, because her kids have unusual immune cells always present whenever they have blood draws for anything, and it seems this is very common in autistics. So, she always very carefully weighs the risk of severe illness against the almost certain severe reactions to vaccination before allowing any vaccinations now.

[Moonbear]

And, we'll all get H1N1 vaccination too. It just got approved in Canada this past week, and they're asking healthy people to hold off until high-risk people get their shots first.

Note that the primary seasonal flu this year is also an H1N1 virus. It gets very confusing. The CDC is calling the seasonal one "Seasonal H1N1" and the swine flu "2009 H1N1." I don't think that makes it much less confusing, since both are going around in 2009.

I just don't have a lot of confidence in the seasonal vaccines, partly because they are guessing every year, and partly because they need to give it every year. It seems that if you've gotten a bout of flu, you have immunity for a long time, yet the vaccine doesn't seem to provide that long term immunity that people need to keep getting it annually. With the swine flu vaccine, at least they know it's protecting against the actual virus going around, not just a guess at what one might go around.

One of my parents' friends is on immunosuppressants following a lung transplant. She's in one of those very high risk categories, so gets the flu vaccine every year, and then every year spends a week being sick from the reaction to the vaccine. I have to really think long and hard about how a vaccine would work in someone with a suppressed immune system, though, because I would think the immunosuppression would prevent the vaccine from doing anything.

[jimmysnyder]

Actually, I have a friend with autistic children who is really struggling with whether to get them the vaccine or not.
Is she afraid they'll become even more autistic? The vaccine-autism link is so well known to be a deliberate fraud that the only people still pushing it are those whose 15 minutes are up and they can't let go.

[NeoDevin]

But should you get it? My GP always argued, no, that perfectly healthy people should not. He was high-risk being a GP and all, and he didn't get flu shots, because he wanted his body to develop its own immunities to the bugs. He didn't ever catch the flu in the eighteen years I've known him.

I would recommend getting a new GP. One who uses evidence and science based medicine, and doesn't put his patients at risk.

[OmCheeto]

If you work in a healthcare setting, around children, have any susceptibility of respiratory illnesses (asthma, smoker, past history of pneumonia after flu), then definitely get vaccinated. If you are otherwise healthy, it's optional, and might be best to leave the vaccine available to those who need it more. .......

I agree, but you forgot one group:

* USDA confirms H1N1 in Minnesota pig (http://www.capitalpress.com/orewash/TH-h1n1-102309-infobox)
Updated: Saturday, October 24, 2009 11:03 AM
H1N1 in pigs was inevitable, producers say
Industry reiterates that meat even from diseased swine is safe
By TIM HEARDEN
Capital Press

Now that the H1N1 virus has been detected in at least one pig shown at the Minnesota State Fair, the U.S. pork industry is taking the development in stride -- and hoping everyone else will, too. Poor pigs.... :frown:

From the Ontario pdf (http://www.health.gov.on.ca/english/providers/program/pubhealth/flu/flu_09/bulletins/flu_bul_01_20091023.pdf) from the other thread:

Among the 28 confirmed cases that have died, 25 (89%) had underlying chronic medical conditions reported,.....

Among cases that are currently or have previously been hospitalized, a number of underlying medical conditions have been reported, including but not limited to diabetes, cardiovascular conditions, renal conditions and pulmonary conditions.

humans that is.

[GeorginaS]

I just don't have a lot of confidence in the seasonal vaccines, partly because they are guessing every year, and partly because they need to give it every year. It seems that if you've gotten a bout of flu, you have immunity for a long time, yet the vaccine doesn't seem to provide that long term immunity that people need to keep getting it annually. With the swine flu vaccine, at least they know it's protecting against the actual virus going around, not just a guess at what one might go around.

That's what I was trying to say, Moonbie. The seasonal vaccine is a studied guess that I haven't ever had much confidence in, but H1N1 is different.

Here, as best I know, we're getting the regular flu vaccine and H1N1 all by itself. The regular vaccine has already long been out (although there's a huge push this year to get as many people vaccinated as possible with loads, and loads of flu shot clinics opening up everywhere) and we've already got the shot. People I know are now all waiting the requisite time period before going for H1N1, which was only approved this week at any rate.

I would recommend getting a new GP. One who uses evidence and science based medicine, and doesn't put his patients at risk.

He didn't. And he's one of the most brilliant diagnosticians I've ever met; the breadth of his knowledge on all things medical -- including less-than-conventional stuff -- along with his diligence to remain as absolutely current as he can in terms of information and new developments has made him the very best doctor I've had in my life. He has, for the 17 years I've known him, been nothing but stellar.

[Monique]

I have to really think long and hard about how a vaccine would work in someone with a suppressed immune system, though, because I would think the immunosuppression would prevent the vaccine from doing anything. That's true, it's the same with elderly people who don't have a well-working immune system: they don't build up long-term immunity with one shot. The Netherlands is going to give these immunocompromised groups a second 'booster' shot of the vaccine, because otherwise you might as well not vaccinate them at all.

[magpies]

If the virus mutates enough the vac will have been worthless I believe anyone know if this is correct or not?

[BobG]

Yes, you should get vaccintaed. I get vaccinated every year and do not get sick.

Like I said in another thread, even if you personally don't care if you get the flu, you could infect someone that could die from it.

My employer offers free vaccinations in our office evey year, and no one gets sick. this year, due to the media hype, that had to order thousands of extra vaccines because they maxed out on the appointments so quickly.

I'd like people that vote no to say why.

Are you afraid of getting vaccinated, and if yes, why are you afraid?

I avoid flu vaccinations like the plague and March 2008 was the first time I missed a day of work/school because of illness since March 1970 (neither were the flu).

Why am I afraid of flu shots? Because they're different each year. I assume they've been tested and are mostly safe, but no one puts out products with a 100% flawless rate (Avandria, Paxil, Vioxx, Fen Phen, among others (http://www.drugrecalls.com/)). While the chance of any vaccine being harmful is very small, the more different drugs you ingest, the larger the chance of getting a harmful one.

I think it's a good idea to limit all drug use (including vaccines) only to those drugs that you have an actual need for. I rarely get sick and recover quickly when I do (colds, etc). I don't consider myself to carry much risk of dying from the flu.

Even more importantly, shots hurt.

[russ_watters]

Simple question:
Do you believe everyone who can do so should get vaccinated, or no? I do, but I don't care enough to take the time out of my day to do it.

[Topher925]

If the virus mutates enough the vac will have been worthless I believe anyone know if this is correct or not?

Yes, this is exactly what happens and is why there are new flu vaccines every year. Your flu shot from 2 years ago is going to do nothing against the modern strains that exist now. And probably within a year, the main flu virus going around now will then mutate into something else which you will need another new vaccine for.


I personally never get flu shots anymore. The only time I've ever been severely ill from a flu virus was actually when I got a flu shot. Since I stopped getting them, I've stopped getting sick. I of course don't recommend this for everyone though. Some people do need to get vaccinated, its just not for me.

[rootX]

I am not going to get it but I hope most people would get it :biggrin:

[Evo]

I've only had the flu twice, once when I was 20 and then 4 years ago. I had never bothered with the vaccine before. But after that last bout, I'd rather risk side effects (which I have never had) than go through another episode like that. Georgina is right, the bone/joint/muscle pain is excrutiating. I think most people think they had the flu, when it was only a bad cold, or it was a very mild flu. Once you have a bad case, you will be camping out waiting for the vaccine.

I am pro-vaccine, but that's based on my actually having had a serious case of flu. I guess if you haven't been that sick, it's not an issue.

[Evo]

For those that are afraid of the vaccine. Maybe this will help.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090927/ap_on_he_me/us_med_swine_flu_side_effects

[JasonRox]

As I'm telling my students, if they get sick, the first thing they need to do is get better. If they feel better but aren't cleared to return to classes yet, and want to get caught up from home, I'm helping them get make-up work by email. If necessary, I'll give them incompletes so they have extra time to catch up if they are out for an extended time and can't catch up before the end of the semester (though, I think they are getting more studying done while stuck home in bed than when they are well and running around socializing).


I had one student walk in my seminar to tell me he's not feeling well and can't make it today. He said it all quiet.

I spoke loud and clear to him so the rest of the class can hear... "If you are sick or feel sick, do NOT come to school. Do NOT come to school. I don't care if you have a quiz, assignment due, do NOT come to school." The rest of the class heard. This is true regardless of which flu season whether it was 10 years ago, or in the midst of H1N1 as of now. You DON'T go out when you're sick. It's NOT that difficult.

It's my 4th year as a Teaching Assistant, and I must say that kids are really getting dumber every year. I used to expect students to know what a derivative is coming out of high school. Now, my expectations are... I have my fingers crossed in hopes they are comfortable adding fractions.

[Monique]

There are always these people who are very proud that they never missed a single day of work and come in no matter how sick they are and then say "oh, I'm feeling so sick, but I'm still here to do my job" :rolleyes:

[GeorginaS]

The debate for whether or not I should have been vaccinated decided, all I can say now is, owwwww! I'm whining.

[Count Iblis]

It's over-hyped - a knee-jerk reaction. It's just the flu. Hundreds of people die every year from flu yet they are not hyped like this.

It may be the case that the Swine flu is overall as deadly as ordinary flu and quite a but milder that ordinary flu in most cases. But then the statistics also show that 30% of the people that died from it were young and healthy. That's definitely not what happens in case of ordinary flu.

[Evo]

I got my flu vaccination yesterday. No reaction. I haven't had the H1N1 vaccination though, but I will if it becomes available. I had the swine flu back in 1976, so perhaps I have some small amount of immunity, even though it's mutated.

[Alfi]

If anyone here has paid for the shot, how much was it?

[rootX]

Personally, I am hearing a lot that lots of people are taking sick leaves these days. I was also sent home when they found that my coworker got swine flu as a precaution. I went to doctor to get I am good certificate (He refused to do a flu check on me because I need to have some symptoms) but I didn't ask for the shot- shots hurt! :shy:

[Norman]

I got my regular season flu vaccination today. And 20 minutes ago, I was notified that a child at the daycare both my kids attend tested positive for H1N1... my daughter is only 5 months old and my son is 2, so it is a little scary to consider them getting it...

So, in all likelihood, the arrival of the H1N1 vaccine will not be in time to matter for my family... (we don't have access to it yet here).

[Sorry!]

I got my regular season flu vaccination today. And 20 minutes ago, I was notified that a child at the daycare both my kids attend tested positive for H1N1... my daughter is only 5 months old and my son is 2, so it is a little scary to consider them getting it...

So, in all likelihood, the arrival of the H1N1 vaccine will not be in time to matter for my family... (we don't have access to it yet here).

Why's it taking so long to get the vacinations to some areas?

Kind of worrisome. It's a good thing they can deploy upwards of 200 000 soldiers to any part of the world pretty much over night with all the necessary equipment etc. though.

[Count Iblis]

You can also make your bunker ready, just in case...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7379741.stm

Alex Steffen, a journalist and editor based in Seattle, is one of those "daring to prepare" for a coming "tiny apocalypse".

"The systems we rely on are brittle and facing strain," he says. "Here in Seattle we are vulnerable to earthquakes and I also live near a big volcano. Climate change is causing more extreme weather events. There could be a global bird flu outbreak or some other pandemic."

For these reasons, Steffen and his girlfriend have stocked six weeks' worth of food in their basement and have invested in a water-purifying kit. "We are taking precautions," he says, referring to himself as an "urban liberal survivalist".

[NeoDevin]

I got my swine flu vaccine today!

[Alfi]

If anyone here has paid for the shot, how much was it?

Why is it so hard to get a single answer to my question?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

How much ?

[Count Iblis]

Why is it so hard to get a single answer to my question?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

How much ?


I have to pay €25 for the ordinary flu vaccine. :grumpy:

[skeptic2]

There are so many unknowns it's difficult to answer a question like this. What if the virus mutates and becomes much more deadly. Will the existing vaccine still offer protection.

I understand vaccines typically take about 6 weeks to reach full potency. What will the H1N1 situation be in 6 weeks?

My 12 yo daughter contracted the flu about 2 weeks ago. The doctor said since it was too early for the regular flu season she assumed all flu right now was the swine flu. My daughter was better in one day.

It would seem that in order to stop the flu from spreading, each infected person would on the average be able to infect less than one other person. If the probability of infecting someone you come in contact with is 0.4 and you come in contact with 5 other people, you potentially could infect 2 other people. However, if over 50% of the population were immune either by vaccination or by previous exposure, it's likely the flu wouldn't be able to spread.

[GeorginaS]

H1N1 shot is the one I had last night. It's entirely free, here, with loads of clinics available. The wait-times are still up to 5 hours at some clinics. I lucked out with no wait-time last night.

Lots of muscle aches today and a very sore arm. I think I'll live.

[NeoDevin]

I work (study) in a cancer facility, so mine are free, and I hardly have to wait in line at all.

[Sorry!]

Flu shots are free here too... Just a pretty long wait time like 7 hours for some people and at the moment they are only giving the vaccination to those who are at greatest risk. Next week they will move ahead allowing more people. I don't think there is anywhere in Ontario that doesn't have access to the vaccination and there is enough vaccination for every person in the province to be vaccinated. They are also opening up extra clinics and keeping them open later and the hospitals/clinics are also doing their part in dealing with flu patients.

I find it incredible that areas in the USA apparently have no access to the vaccination...

[lisab]

Why is it so hard to get a single answer to my question?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

How much ?

I've never had to pay for a flu vaccine, my work gives them free.

[NeoDevin]

I find it incredible that areas in the USA apparently have no access to the vaccination...

It's that "world leading" health care system they have.

[Evo]

It's a shame that so many people have to go out of their way to get the vaccine and pay for it. I only started getting the vaccine because it's free and they come to our office an give them to us and I also got a bag full of great gifts.

[DaveC426913]

I also got a bag full of great gifts.

Hm. I think I could be bribed into getting a shot if they plied me with chocolate and toys....

[rootX]

@Ontario:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5j__YCUUWjWBvmmVjg0VP5K0o4kgA

I don't know how much these vaccines cost but meeting with the demand looks like a tough job.

[drankin]

I've never gotten a flu shot. Actually, I don't remember the last time I was sick. At least not in a way that wasn't self inflicted. Someone else can have my shot.

[Sorry!]

@Ontario:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5j__YCUUWjWBvmmVjg0VP5K0o4kgA

I don't know how much these vaccines cost but meeting with the demand looks like a tough job.

Hmm the Minister of health for Ontario said we already have enough vaccine to allow everyone in the province to get vaccinated as well Ontario is one full week ahead of schedule... Obviously there will be huge line ups to get vaccinated though.

[NeoDevin]

Hmm the Minister of health for Ontario said we already have enough vaccine to allow everyone in the province to get vaccinated as well Ontario is one full week ahead of schedule... Obviously there will be huge line ups to get vaccinated though.

The problem isn't supply of the vaccine, it's enough workers to meet the demand.

[Sorry!]

The problem isn't supply of the vaccine, it's enough workers to meet the demand.

Well yeah who wouldn't expect there to be long line ups and a waiting time to get the vaccine? Would people rather it get mailed to their house... would love to see the outcome of that.

In that article it compares whats going on here to a third world nation. That's probably one of the most rediculous statements I've ever seen... this person should go live in a developing nation for a week... of their choice. They can even live in the city if they like; the ignorance of some people.

[NeoDevin]

I'm sending my wife and son off to wait in those line-ups (they are similar in Alberta) tomorrow morning. I only had to wait in line for about 5 minutes for mine, there are perks for going to school at the Cross Cancer Institute.

[rootX]

The problem isn't supply of the vaccine, it's enough workers to meet the demand.

I was thinking of something like vending machines .. :rofl: but I guess it is hard to make anything work efficiently in this case.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/46634000/jpg/_46634817_flujab_ap.jpg
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/8332597.stm

[rootX]

Hmm the Minister of health for Ontario said we already have enough vaccine to allow everyone in the province to get vaccinated as well Ontario is one full week ahead of schedule... Obviously there will be huge line ups to get vaccinated though.

http://www.reuters.com/article/companyNewsAndPR/idUSN2938021620091030

[NeoDevin]

How hard could it be to self-administer a vaccination? The only problem then would be how to deal with those rare few who have a serious reaction.

[Sorry!]

http://www.reuters.com/article/companyNewsAndPR/idUSN2938021620091030

Makes you wonder whats really going on around town. lol. Thanks for the articles.

And self-administered vaccinations would be interesting. My mom has self-administered needles but they are specially designed that even a monkey could do it. Even then she needed to go through some course as well a nurse had to come in to our house the first time to show her properly how to do it.

I remembered in biology we learnt about technologies that would enable this to be possible...

++ http://www.bio-medicine.org/biology-technology-1/NIH-Funds-Vaccine-Research-for-Needle-free-and-Self-Administered-Protection-Against-Pandemic-Influenza-3270-1/


I also recall my sister needing a vaccination of some sort. My dad had to buy it from the pharmacy and bring it to our family doctor for him to inject her with it. Would it have been dangerous for us to do it at home?

... I personally wouldn't want to give everyone in our country a virus. Since the vaccinations right now require an injection it takes quite a bit so if some people grouped together their vaccinations bam large quantities of the virus no?

[Alfi]

Why is it so hard to get a single answer to my question?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

How much ?

My apologies. When I re-read that, it sounds very harsh. It was not meant to be.

[GeorginaS]

My apologies. When I re-read that, it sounds very harsh. It was not meant to be.

Sorry Alfi, but I have no clue. That's why I mentioned it's free here, in Canada, not because I'm bragging but because that's the reason I don't have any information. Where are you at that it's going to cost you?

[OmCheeto]

It may be the case that the Swine flu is overall as deadly as ordinary flu and quite a but milder that ordinary flu in most cases. But then the statistics also show that 30% of the people that died from it were young and healthy. That's definitely not what happens in case of ordinary flu.

It appears not to be true for this strain:

Total deaths: 1396 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_flu_pandemic_by_country)
Ped deaths: 95 (http://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/index.htm#MS)

roughly 14%

And a report last month showed that a majority of the children who died were not healthy.

67% (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5834a1.htm) had one or more of the high-risk medical conditions.

Though they did say the following:

All children aged ≥6 months and caregivers of children aged <6 months should receive influenza A (H1N1) 2009 monovalent vaccine when available.

The CDC says that around 16 million vaccines (http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/vaccination/vaccinesupply.htm) have been shipped so far, or about enough for 1 in 20.

[JasonRox]

I got the vaccine shot three times yesterday. I went to 3 clinics. I figured I play it safe and get it 3 times.

[Pagan Harpoon]

I reckon the chances of my getting swine flu are close to 0%. I reckon if I get swine flu, the chances of me dying from it are still close to 0%. The chance of me dying from swine flu (almost 0%)2, that is very very unlikely.

[Sorry!]

I reckon the chances of my getting swine flu are close to 0%. I reckon if I get swine flu, the chances of me dying from it are still close to 0%. The chance of me dying from swine flu (almost 0%)2, that is very very unlikely.

Great conclusion mate.

[DaveC426913]

I reckon the chances of my getting swine flu are close to 0%. I reckon if I get swine flu, the chances of me dying from it are still close to 0%. The chance of me dying from swine flu (almost 0%)2, that is very very unlikely.

I'll bet that perfectly healthy 13 year old boy had the exact same logic.

[Pagan Harpoon]

I am not familiar with the 13 year old boy story, but I think I can guess the significant part. If he had thought about it, then yes, he probably would have had the same logic - and it remains perfectly sound logic, regardless of the fact that he died (I presume). There are any number of extremely low probability possibilities that result in my death that could easily be eliminated. For example, I might get shot such that I would have survived if I had had a small metal shield in my shirt pocket. I don't doubt that lots of people have died in such a manner.

[Pagan Harpoon]

I think that's unfair. If nobody disagrees that the odds of my dying from swine flu are extremely low indeed... ridiculously low, then why should I give any special status to that potential death over all of the other very unlikely ones?

[Sorry!]

I think that's unfair. If nobody disagrees that the odds of my dying from swine flu are extremely low indeed... ridiculously low, then why should I give any special status to that potential death over all of the other very unlikely ones?

Because this one effects other people around you not just yourself.

[Pagan Harpoon]

I think the almost 0% chance of my getting it is sufficiently close to 0% for me to disregard it completely, even putting aside the fact that my life would still be in almost no danger if I were infected. By this I mean that for my not being vaccinated to affect people around me, I would first need to be infected and that is itself very unlikely... very very unlikely. If you judge it to be sufficiently likely to warrant getting vaccinated for the greater good, then go ahead, but calling me an idiot is unfair.

In addition to this... surely, it is the responsibility of the people who might be at risk of dying from it to have themselves vaccinated and not rely on other people vaccinating themselves to avoid transmitting it to them?

[rasmhop]

I think that's unfair. If nobody disagrees that the odds of my dying from swine flu are extremely low indeed... ridiculously low, then why should I give any special status to that potential death over all of the other very unlikely ones?

I disagree with your odds. I believe your odds of getting swine flu is probably above "almost 0%" whatever that means (my guess would be at least 1%, but I'm not a doctor of course). A potentially pandemic disease needs some sort of critical mass to become a pandemic and I don't believe we have reached that yet, and hope we won't. However I think there is a pretty large chance that it will happen and then the probability of getting swine flu is going to be pretty high. Also you're only evaluating the event that you die, but you also have to consider that 1) getting the swine flu, but not dieing, is likely an unpleasant event. 2) if a lot of people do like you, then the odds of it turning pandemic is much larger.

As for the comparison with getting shot: If there was a (medical) shot against getting shot and I was offered it for free, then I would certainly accept it.

Personally I'm getting my shot next Monday. One thing I don't really understand is why there are such ridiculous waiting times. Don't people reserve a time slot to get the shot, or do they just turn up? Personally I had a call from a nurse at the hospital who told me I was offered a for free shot and that I should set up a time with my GP within the next couple of weeks. My GP informs me that there may be 30mins of waiting, but that's it.

[Pagan Harpoon]

Wearing the small metal shield in my shirt pocket is equivalent to a vaccine against getting shot in that particular part of my chest.

I think that you overestimate the possibility of my getting swine flu, but we can't discuss that properly, I expect. I will accord no credence to the porposition that swine is or might be pandemic until I at least know of a single person who has or had it. Every case that has been reported to me has come through some sort of mass communication, the news and so on. I find that the fact that I don't know anyone who has told me that they know someone who knows someone who had swine flu is somewhat incongruent with the view of the situation that is being presented by the media.

[Sorry!]

Wearing the small metal shield in my shirt pocket is equivalent to a vaccine against getting shot in that particular part of my chest.

I think that you overestimate the possibility of my getting swine flu, but we can't discuss that properly, I expect. I will accord no credence to the porposition that swine is or might be pandemic until I at least know of a single person who has or had it. Every case that has been reported to me has come through some sort of mass communication, the news and so on. I find that the fact that I don't know anyone who has told me that they know someone who knows someone who had swine flu is somewhat incongruent with the view of the situation that is being presented by the media.

I've gotten swine flu and regular flu this year. I also know a few people who have gotten swine flu... Imagine that you're grandma had caught swine flu from someone she worked with and she died from it...

[Pagan Harpoon]

If that had happened, I expect that I might feel differently about it. Similarly, if my grandmother had died in a car crash recently, I would be wary of getting into a car, but that hasn't happened.

Edit - Ah, I see, your implication was different - however, I maintain my position. At the present, I have not been personally touched by this, so I can be perfectly logical about it - it is the responsibility of those at risk of death to have themselves vaccinated, if they don't and get the disease and die, that is their own lookout. If the situation that you described were to happen and that would obscure my view, that is irrelevant. A hypothetical situation of similar worth - what if I were put up for adoption when I was born and turned out a completely different person with a less logical mind, then my view would be different.

[rasmhop]

Wearing the small metal shield in my shirt pocket is equivalent to a vaccine against getting shot in that particular part of my chest.
Yes, and if the vaccine worked in that way I probably wouldn't bother to take it, but as the vaccine will actually protect me more like a bulletproof vest than a metal shield. I don't walk around with a metal shield in my pocket.

I think that you overestimate the possibility of my getting swine flu, but we can't discuss that properly, I expect. I will accord no credence to the porposition that swine is or might be pandemic until I at least know of a single person who has or had it. Every case that has been reported to me has come through some sort of mass communication, the news and so on. I find that the fact that I don't know anyone who has told me that they know someone who knows someone who had swine flu is somewhat incongruent with the view of the situation that is being presented by the media.
I totally agree that at the moment it isn't a pandemic and that it's blown out of proportions by the media. If we were 100% sure that the number of infections wouldn't increase dramatically, then I probably wouldn't bother. The reason I take the shot is that I believe it may become a pandemic. However you're probably right that at the moment laypeople (which I am) can't really have a rational discussion about the probabilities and I accept you choice to attribute a smaller probability to the event of you getting swine flu. Finally some anecdotal support: I actually know 2 people that were confirmed infected and plenty who believe they were, but were told that they should do nothing, but stay indoors and call the hospital in case the symptoms worsened considerably. I'm aware that anecdotal evidence isn't a rational basis for making a decision and that most people who believe they have the swine flu probably don't, but I thought I would provide a counterpoint to your "I don't know anyone infected".

[rootX]

Is there a number for people who got the flu shots but still got sick?

[Evo]

Waiting until everyone around you has the flu before you get the vaccine isn't a good idea. Although the vaccine becomes effective after only 2 weeks, the earlier in the season you can get it, the better.

I'm not allergic to eggs, so there is no reason for me to not get the vaccine. Get the shot and not get sick or not get it and risk getting sick. It's a no brainer to get the shot for me. Yes, the risk of getting the flu is extremely small, but the "real" flu, not the colds people get that they call the flu, is so painful, that not getting the vaccine doesn't even cross my mind.

I've only been getting the vaccine for the last few years since my second, and hopefully last bout of flu.

Now if they would develop a vaccine for clumsiness, I'd be perfect.

[lisab]

Wearing the small metal shield in my shirt pocket is equivalent to a vaccine against getting shot in that particular part of my chest.

I think that you overestimate the possibility of my getting swine flu, but we can't discuss that properly, I expect. I will accord no credence to the porposition that swine is or might be pandemic until I at least know of a single person who has or had it. Every case that has been reported to me has come through some sort of mass communication, the news and so on. I find that the fact that I don't know anyone who has told me that they know someone who knows someone who had swine flu is somewhat incongruent with the view of the situation that is being presented by the media.

About 50% of the employees in my building have had it (including me), and there were about 5 more out sick this week.

Full disclosure: no one went to the doctor to confirm it's H1N1. However, the CDC states on their website (http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/update.htm):

Almost all of the influenza viruses identified so far are 2009 H1N1 influenza A viruses. These viruses remain similar to the virus chosen for the 2009 H1N1 vaccine, and remain susceptible to the antiviral drugs oseltamivir and zanamivir with rare exception.

So I think it's safe to assume that a flu-like illness spreading around an office at this time (with all the classic H1N1 symtoms) is likely H1N1.

[Sorry!]

What about what we were talking about earlier. The self-administered vaccinations what you guys think about that idea huh? Evo...lisa?

[lisab]

What about what we were talking about earlier. The self-administered vaccinations what you guys think about that idea huh? Evo...lisa?

Hmm, I must have missed those posts. By self-administered, you mean giving yourself a shot? Probably a bad idea.

But I think the issue isn't who gives the shot, it's whether you should get it or not.

I voted yes.

[Evo]

What about what we were talking about earlier. The self-administered vaccinations what you guys think about that idea huh? Evo...lisa?It's silly, it takes just as long to hand someone a syringe of the vaccine as it does to inject them. The health department is starting to track who gets the vaccine so it makes even less sense to give it to someone and never know if they actually injected it.

It literally took less than two minutes for me to get my vaccine. I walked in, handed the woman my information sheet (for tracking), sat down, she did an alcohol swab, said "1,2,3", placed a bandaid over the injection, and it was over. Of course it was done privately at my place of employment and they scheduled appointments, they alloted 5 minutes per appointment, but it didn't take half of that.

[DaveC426913]

It literally took less than two minutes for me to get my vaccine.Here, people have waited in line for as much as 7 hours.

[Evo]

Here, people have waited in line for as much as 7 hours.Yes, it's a problem with the number of workers in a public clinic.

If you live in the US, Walgreens pharmacies give the shots and there are no lines. In areas where there are no Walgreens, other pharmacies offer the shots, even my grocery store gives them. My doctor gives them. I think there may be problems in Canada?

But are we talking seasonal flu shots or H1N1? I wonder if people realize that they are two different shots?

[rasmhop]

Here, people have waited in line for as much as 7 hours.

But it didn't take 7 hours to administer a shot. Obviously health clinics can't just put out a box of syringes for people to take. People will have to be given instruction on how to properly administer it, how to recognize bad reactions to the shot, what to do in case of adverse effects, etc. They will probably also have to show some id and be recorded in a database. In addition many people will have questions, and a lot of people are afraid enough of needles not to want to take it themselves. I would guess that we would see about as long a waiting time if people could self-administer, but with a much larger rate of incorrectly administered vaccines.

I personally take some medication that I have to inject on a biweekly basis using an auto-injector. I believe this is one of the simplest delivery systems for injections yet it took at least 10 minutes for a nurse to tell me all she had to and they required for my first shot to be administered at the hospital, and the second I could take myself but I had to be at the hospital so they could observe whether I was able to perform the injection correctly. I was also told that lots of people don't like to self-administer the injection. In addition I believe an auto-injector is fairly expensive and if we have to buy millions of them, then it could cost quite a lot and I doubt we can just give people ordinary syringes to perform the vaccine.

[NeoDevin]

I think there may be problems in Canada?

A big part of the problem was that they delayed approving the vaccine. Add to this a few well publicised healthy teens dying, and demand went way up.

My wife waited 4 hours in line today to get hers.

[noblegas]

No. Nobody should be vaccinated against their will. Besides, all US citizens do not have the same level of immunity to the new strain of flu. Some americans immune system will easily fight it off and some immune system will have a hard time fighting off the strain of flu.

[Evo]

No. Nobody should be vaccinated against their will. Besides, all US citizens do not have the same level of immunity to the new strain of flu. Some americans immune system will easily fight it off and some immune system will have a hard time fighting off the strain of flu.No one is being vaccinated against their will.

There is no natural immunity to the flu.

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/viruses/change.htm

[OmCheeto]

About 50% of the employees in my building have had it (including me), and there were about 5 more out sick this week.


So how many people are there in your building and how many have died. We need to keep the statistical hysteria (http://urban-science.blogspot.com/2009/10/h1n1-vaccination-hysteria-part-2-should.html) going.

[lisab]

So how many people are there in your building and how many have died. We need to keep the statistical hysteria (http://urban-science.blogspot.com/2009/10/h1n1-vaccination-hysteria-part-2-should.html) going.

Well, a coworker died about a year ago. OK so it wasn't from flu, but that's totally irrelevant.

There are about 35 people in the building (after 2 rounds of layoffs :cry:).

[Evo]

About 50% of the employees in my building have had it (including me), and there were about 5 more out sick this week.

Full disclosure: no one went to the doctor to confirm it's H1N1. However, the CDC states on their website (http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/update.htm):

Almost all of the influenza viruses identified so far are 2009 H1N1 influenza A viruses. These viruses remain similar to the virus chosen for the 2009 H1N1 vaccine, and remain susceptible to the antiviral drugs oseltamivir and zanamivir with rare exception.

So I think it's safe to assume that a flu-like illness spreading around an office at this time (with all the classic H1N1 symtoms) is likely H1N1.Unless it's diagnosed though, we can't even say it was the flu.

This year seems to be odd that no one has had a cold, it's all the flu.

[lisab]

Unless it's diagnosed though, we can't even say it was the flu.

This year seems to be odd that no one has had a cold, it's all the flu.

But typically with a cold, there's lots of congestion. This (that everyone in my building is getting) is mostly characterized with fever, chills, aches, and incredible fatigue. Sore throat, too, and just a sniffle, maybe, but no congestion at all. No sneezing, either.

But true, it's not confirmed...yet I strongly suspect it's H1N1.

[OmCheeto]

But typically with a cold, there's lots of congestion. This (that everyone in my building is getting) is mostly characterized with fever, chills, aches, and incredible fatigue. Sore throat, too, and just a sniffle, maybe, but no congestion at all. No sneezing, either.

But true, it's not confirmed...yet I strongly suspect it's H1N1.

So you still might be contagious? And here I'm going to be in your neighborho (http://www.fosswaterwayseaport.org/index.php?p=HotNews10.09.09)od tomorrow and was going to stop by and give you a big hug.

If you see someone in a little black truck honking and waving while driving away in the morning, it was me.:redface:

[GeorginaS]

You know, if I caught swine flu, I'm young and healthy, and while it might be a really lousy experience, the odds of my body being able to fight it off on its own are really good. So, I figure I'm in good shape that way.

Now, a friend of mine, who happens to also be someone I work with, is going through chemotherapy treatments right now. He immune system is badly suppressed. He got the vaccination, but who knows what kind of anti-body response his body is going to be able to muster right now? What if I bring the live virus to him, because I figure I don't have to worry about me. I'll survive. He's already fighting for his life as a result of a very serious colon tumour he acquired and had to have removed. He has a wife, who is also my friend, and children, both young and old.

And he's just one person in my life. His wife, who is my friend, has a brother who is HIV positive. He's living a very normal life on his meds. We socialise at family gatherings on special occasions. His immune system isn't anything to write home about either.

And then I looked at a picture I had taken this past September when my parents were visiting. I took them out to dinner for their 49th anniversary and invited my friends and a couple who are friends of my parents. In that picture is my father, whose immune system is trying to pull itself back together from treatments for prostate cancer last year. There's my mother's friend, A, standing behind them, and she was just diagnosed with her fourth case of cancer and would have surgery and start treatments within two weeks of that picture. My friend who'd had the recent cancer operation was also in that picture. We all look like a perfectly normal group of people. Yet in that shot of seven people were three people in various stages of fighting cancer and whose immune systems are not up to the fight of a flu. It made me wonder how many people I interact with every day, or even simply share space with, in the grocery store, or out shopping. How many people are so much more vulnerable than I am, who appear perfectly fine.

Lastly, I have an adorable neighbour. Her name is Winnie. She's in her early eighties and had a mastectomy for breast cancer ten years ago. She's in a number of high-risk groups. Winnie is the most adorable woman. I want to adopt her as my grandmother. We stop in the hallway and chat fairly regularly. If Winnie's door is open when my cat wanders into the hallway for her promenade, she wanders directly into Winnie's place and makes herself at home. That provokes the best laugh from Winnie who's amazed at how quiet Bean is. She's a delight. Her chances of surviving a flu aren't great.

I have all of these people around me, ones I know about and ones I'd have no idea, and if I'm walking around carrying a specific flu that's travelling fairly quickly and I could have warded it off with a shot, but I only concern myself with me, then what good am I? Seriously? Sure, it's not "that bad" of a flu as compared to some of the others. Granted. And surely I'd have no problem overcoming it. It's targeted. We know specifically that this one flu is making its rounds -- unlike the other seasonal flus. I'd be a pretty lousy member of society if I didn't care about people like my friend, my friend's brother, my father, my mother's friend, and Winnie.

Yes. I got my H1N1 shot.

[GeorginaS]

The wait time here is long because they're administering the seasonal flu shots and H1N1 shots in public clinics. Yes, you can call your doctor and make an appointment to go in and get your shots, but most doctors' offices are setting up their own clinics too. The question is manpower.

The biggest clinic near my place (close to both where I live and work) first had a seasonal flu clinic in a mall last week. They opened at 7 in the morning and finished off at 8 at night. Wait time, from going in, filling out the form, just plain waiting, getting the shot, and then waiting an extra 15 minutes afterwards, all told, took about an hour. They had a lot of nurses on hand.

H1N1 came in this week, and wait times skyrocketed. I don't imagine doctors' offices were any better off. People were waiting between 2 and 5 hours to get their shot.

Yes, they're just walk-in clinics. You don't call for an appointment. You just go. And however many people are there ahead of you, you wait behind them. Our building that I work in has generally had clinics in-house for flu shots yearly, but this year there's been such a push by the government to get people inoculated, that health providers short of staff and we don't have the luxury of private clinics in every office building. We aren't short of the vaccine, and we aren't short of space to do it. We're short of people to administer the shots. One clinic I was at had pulled five nurses from a less busy clinic elsewhere in town to handle the load they had. That's just how it is. And people are very willing to patiently wait their turn.

[Count Iblis]

http://search.hp.my.aol.fi/aol/redir?src=image&clickedItemURN=http%3A%2F%2Finfo-wars.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2009%2F08%2FSwine_Flu_Hysteria _by_Latuff2.jpg&moduleId=image_details.jsp.M&clickedItemDescription=Image Details

[jreelawg]

Evolutionally who will survive longest, vaccine takers or non vaccine takers?

For example, if group a gets vaccinated, and most survive, then they pass on their genes untested. Our natural mechanism for long term survival (evolution) will bypass any kind of flu resistant selection. Meanwhile in group b, nobody takes vaccines, and everyone with poor flu resistance die, then their population becomes more flu strong.

But, if 500 years of mass vaccinations pass by, and everyone relies on vaccines to fight flues, and vaccine makers make a bad guess on the vaccine, and the world gets exposed, we have ourselves a plague?

Or I guess you could say that maybe populations who take vaccines will evolve to withstand low dose toxic injections.

Then there is the question of how the immune system naturally adapts to fight viruses. Is there a better resistance built up getting a flu than getting vaccinated. Other wise, people who dodge the flu year by year are more likely to eventually get it and die in the long run, and evolution would go the other way. Then another option would be that a flu wipes everyone out but the vaccine takers.

For the greater good, and for your risk of dying, I just am not sure how that would pan out in the long term, I think by any calculation it's going to be a gamble, and there is a strong component of chance.

Anyways the flu isn't really what kills you, most of the time it's pneumonia. So I guess it's more complicated.

I guess you could say that at some point there may be a nano vaccine so to speak, and we might even have the opportunity to become immortal. I somehow doubt I'll be able to afford it though.

As for the hype, I haven't seen any statistics back it up.

Anyone get a pneumonia vaccine?

[NeoDevin]

Evolutionally who will survive longest, vaccine takers or non vaccine takers?

For example, if group a gets vaccinated, and most survive, then they pass on their genes

It works better if you just ignore the rest of what you wrote.

[jreelawg]

It works better if you just ignore the rest of what you wrote.

I'm thinking long term, on the evolutionary scale.

You could argue that technology will make adaptation irrelevant.

I still would need to know wether getting the vaccine makes you more likely to pass on genes. There is a possibility that getting vaccines all your life will make you less likely to for all I know.

[Count Iblis]

But humans won't exist in biological form for very long:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/broadband/tx/singularity/


So, what matters for our long term survival is the ability to defend against computer virusses.