Red lights [Archive] - Physics Forums

OmCheeto

Oct31-09, 11:25 AM

If I'm coming up on a light that just turned red, I take my foot off the gas and just coast up to it. For no apparent reason, this drives people behind me crazy. Just today I had some guy speed up around me a thousand MPH and cut in front of my really fast as if to say "take that for going slow", just so he can come to a quick stop 20 yards later. And then he just stared at me through his side mirror, I guess waiting for me to give him a look or something so he can get out with his gun and shoot me or whatever it is crazy people do nowadays.
Anyway, this is just something that I won't relent on. I refuse to waste my gas, speeding up to a red light or a train crossing when a train is coming just to appease the lunatics behind me.
I love it when someone speeds up in the other lane, stops at a light 50 yards ahead and then I coast up and pass him just as it turns green. I didn't waste my gas or my break pads and I'm now ahead of him again.
But of course I'm smart enough to realize that not everyone can drive like that, since we'd have roads backed up with people coasting up to red lights. So I guess we need the stupid people to keep the roads clear. The people who speed up to a train stop just so they can slam on the breaks as if they thought the mile long train would just vanish by the time they reached the crossing.
It's not their fault they're stupid and can't put 2 and 2 together, but they don't have to be crazy about it.

First off, I drive exactly as you do. Secondly, binary drivers don't seem to bother me as much as they used to. There seem to be fewer of them since gas prices have gone up.

Binary? Ok, I just made that up. They consider the brake and gas pedals to have only two possible positions: not pressed, and to the floor. And of course they have to have their foot on one of the pedals at all times, otherwise they might forget where they are.

I like to talk to them in a nice quiet voice with my windows rolled up without pointing fingers or honking and say to them; "You get bad gas mileage, because you are an idiot." But usually I will shorten this to; "..... because you are an idiot." because it covers all of the things other people do. Saying it out loud seems to have a more calming effect on me than just thinking it. This may be how chanting mantras got started back in the olden times when rude camel drivers would cut you off.

Aummmm.......... Aommmm...... Ommmm... says you are an idiot, Ommmm says you are an idiot...

Try it. It works.

:smile:

leroyjenkens

Oct31-09, 12:16 PM

I applaud your efforts in not wasting unnecessarily, but if this is happening a lot, then maybe you are coasting a bit too slow. How slow, anyway? 15, 10, 5 mph? Do you have automatic transmission? Sometimes just coasting with automatic makes the car go faster.

I'd personally get a little irked if it was so slow that I'd need to brake while "idling" forward.

Remember, there is more than one way to drive, and everyone thinks that "they" are driving correctly. Meet them partially. You already have the attitude that will save you in the long run. Occasionally allowing a little bit more speed won't be noticeable.

You will NEVER please everyone, so don't try. But also, don't try to tick off people just because they are stupid or unaware.
If the speed limit is 45, which it is most of my way home from work, I'll get down to maybe between 30-35. Not really that slow at all, but about 30-35 MPH slower than these "people" behind me want to go.

I always give people my fuel saving tip, but they don't seem to want to listen. They either don't understand, or don't believe me, but it's "use your brakes as least as possible". It's really simple. My car stays in motion and I save all that kenetic energy I built up. Everyone else is slamming on their breaks at every red light and having to get all that weight moving again. Plus it saves on changing brake pads.
First off, I drive exactly as you do. Secondly, binary drivers don't seem to bother me as much as they used to. There seem to be fewer of them since gas prices have gone up.

Binary? Ok, I just made that up. They consider the brake and gas pedals to have only two possible positions: not pressed, and to the floor. And of course they have to have their foot on one of the pedals at all times, otherwise they might forget where they are.
That's a good term for them. Seems like some people hop in their car, say "time to go" and just floor it until they're at their destination.
I like to talk to them in a nice quiet voice with my windows rolled up without pointing fingers or honking and say to them; "You get bad gas mileage, because you are an idiot." But usually I will shorten this to; "..... because you are an idiot." because it covers all of the things other people do. Saying it out loud seems to have a more calming effect on me than just thinking it. This may be how chanting mantras got started back in the olden times when rude camel drivers would cut you off.

Aummmm.......... Aommmm...... Ommmm... says you are an idiot, Ommmm says you are an idiot...

Try it. It works.

Honestly, I just usually call them a bunch of obscenities or I'll make fun of them. For instance, I'll make fun of their little collage football flag waving or if they have a smashed tail light, I'll explain to them (to myself) how driving like that is the reason they got smashed. I usually end up making myself laugh, so it turns out good. They're the ones who will probably end up having the jaws of life cut them out of their car sometime in the future.

russ_watters

Oct31-09, 12:30 PM

If the speed limit is 45, which it is most of my way home from work, I'll get down to maybe between 30-35. Not really that slow at all, but about 30-35 MPH slower than these "people" behind me want to go. What do you mean by that? Do you mean you always drive 10-15mph below the speed limit or just when coasting to a stop light? If you are driving that slow a lot of the time, then you are driving way too slow.

I also take my foot off the gas as soon as I see a stop light in front of me (that I won't make it through) turn yellow, even if I'm still a quarter mile from it, but I've never had someone go around me to beat me to the light.

My last boss was so impatient, he'd go around people if he thought they should have gone through a yellow light - running long red lights! He's had his license suspended a bunch of times...

OmCheeto

Oct31-09, 12:31 PM

I always give people my fuel saving tip, but they don't seem to want to listen. They either don't understand, or don't believe me, but it's "use your brakes as least as possible". It's really simple. My car stays in motion and I save all that kenetic energy I built up. Everyone else is slamming on their breaks at every red light and having to get all that weight moving again. Plus it saves on changing brake pads.

You may be a candidate to drive an electric/hybrid vehicle.

Watch 2:45 thru 5:30 on the following video.

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Being one with your vehicle is even more satisfying when it is one of the most efficient vehicles on the planet.

Ommmmmmm..............

turbo-1

Oct31-09, 12:41 PM

Timber is the big industry in these parts, so we have to share the road with pulp trucks, log trucks, chip trucks, etc. With the cost of fuel, parts, and maintenance, they tend to coast gently to red lights, too. Most towns have noise ordinances forbidding the use of engine brakes within town limits, and truckers don't want to wear out their brake shoes any sooner than necessary.

It's a fact of life, so we all live with it. The infuriating drivers are the passive-aggressive ones that drive 5-10 mph under the posted limit when traffic is heavy or they're in a no-passing zone, then speed right up if it looks you might have an opportunity to get around them.

Moonbear

Oct31-09, 02:35 PM

What do you mean by that? Do you mean you always drive 10-15mph below the speed limit or just when coasting to a stop light? If you are driving that slow a lot of the time, then you are driving way too slow.

I also take my foot off the gas as soon as I see a stop light in front of me (that I won't make it through) turn yellow, even if I'm still a quarter mile from it, but I've never had someone go around me to beat me to the light.

Same here, if I'm not going to get through a light, if it's yellow, I take my foot off the gas preparing to stop for it and have not had people race around me or anything like that, even when I still lived in NJ where everyone drives in a big hurry with no gaps between cars (when I left NJ, I had to learn that people in other states consider that tailgating...ha ha).

But, if you're not getting to the light before it turns green again, that's going to drive people pretty bonkers. And, if you've already been driving like a snail the whole way, taking most of the distance between lights just to get up to the speed limit again, it might just be that people use the opportunity of you slowing down even more to pass you and get ahead of you once the light turns.

There's generally a happy medium somewhere between flooring the gas and slamming on the brake for every light and just toddling along so that you end up stopped at every light (you're not going to save much gas if you spend a lot of time idling at long lights you could have gotten through if you drove a little faster between them).

If a lot of people are passing you, you might want to speed up some. If you feel like you're passing everyone, you might want to slow down some (it's probably a speed trap or cop ahead...ha ha). If you really are just stubborn about the speed you're driving, then if you want to go slow, keep over as far right as possible so others who want to go faster can get around, and if you want to drive fast, stick to the left lane so people can pull to the right out of the way (and if the right lane has no spaces between cars, don't ride the bumper of the person in front of you in the left lane if they are still gaining on them and looking for a place to get over). And for some (many?) people, the time saved getting to their destination is worth more than a few cents worth of gas.

See, easy. Driving well generally just requires paying attention to everything around you and adjusting accordingly.

Moonbear

Oct31-09, 02:39 PM

It's a fact of life, so we all live with it. The infuriating drivers are the passive-aggressive ones that drive 5-10 mph under the posted limit when traffic is heavy or they're in a no-passing zone, then speed right up if it looks you might have an opportunity to get around them.

Oh, yes, I encounter drivers like that often, but I'm not sure they're "passive agressive" so much as the ones gabbing on their cell phones who slow down and drift along as they stop paying attention to the road instead of their call, then speed up again when they finally notice you trying to pass them or when they end their call. There are plenty of days I'd like to replace my car horn with a recorded message that shouts, "get off the phone and drive!"

Sorry!

Oct31-09, 02:56 PM

What do you mean by that? Do you mean you always drive 10-15mph below the speed limit or just when coasting to a stop light? If you are driving that slow a lot of the time, then you are driving way too slow.

I also take my foot off the gas as soon as I see a stop light in front of me (that I won't make it through) turn yellow, even if I'm still a quarter mile from it, but I've never had someone go around me to beat me to the light.

My last boss was so impatient, he'd go around people if he thought they should have gone through a yellow light - running long red lights! He's had his license suspended a bunch of times...

Around here if you drive slow like that you will be pulled over and you will probably end up with a ticket. It's really dangerous driving slow causes a lot of accidents.

206PiruBlood

Oct31-09, 03:08 PM

I don't understand it, around here people give so much effort to get a car length ahead; weaving through traffic at 50 mph only to slam on their breaks moments later at a light, stop sign, etc. I usually drive 5-10 mph over the speed limit and virtually everyone behind me seems so impatient, it's unbelievable some times! Although, only on rare occasion do I observe other drivers going this "slow."

Alfi

Oct31-09, 03:08 PM

I'm a school bus driver.
If I could set up cameras around my bus, I could make a documentary about BAD drivers.

I learned to drive in a standard transmission car by my mother. She would put a glass (three quarters full) of water on the dash. I learned to drive such that it would not spill.
:)

turbo-1

Oct31-09, 03:19 PM

I learned to drive in a standard transmission car by my mother. She would put a glass (three quarters full) of water on the dash. I learned to drive such that it would not spill.
:)I learned to drive when I was 10-11 years old. My father bought an old Willys Jeep, and until he got the extra bucks to fix it up, the throw-out bearing and clutch didn't work. The clutch was engaged all the time. I learned to speed shift without using the clutch. I'd put the transmission and transfer case in low-low so the resistance was low enough to start the engine on the starter motor, then shift up by sound and feel, bouncing through the fields.

Believe me, I would have spilled all the water and broken the glass, too. :tongue:

rootX

Oct31-09, 03:36 PM

Red lights
I hate red lights. I wish the person who made the red lights should have died before coming up with that idea. :devil: I also hate people in the front of the lines who decide to stop too early. Include those also who would take few seconds to accelerate when it turns green. I pass through about 20 light on my way to the work and back, and my happiness correlates with the number of the green lights I see.

TheStatutoryApe

Oct31-09, 05:02 PM

I sometimes get annoyed by people who coast slowly to the stop light but only the really slow ones. For some of these people I have to come to nearly a complete stop and let them get ahead of me because they are going slower than my car does even when I am not using the accelerator at all.

What really annoys me though is when I am trying to pull out onto a street and someone is snail pacing it to the light giving me the option of either wildly dashing out in front of them (which I do not do but rarely) or waiting for them and all of the traffic approaching behind them to pass before I can get on the road.

Monique

Oct31-09, 05:34 PM

For some reason I have a whole other association with red lights, I think it is time for me to get my drivers license and move to a different apartment :rolleyes:

DaveC426913

Oct31-09, 05:49 PM

There is a downside to what you're doing, even to drivers who aren't simply being pinheads.

By driving slowly when coming up to a light, it means that you (and they) must have your attention at 100% all the time. Personally, I find that fatiguing to do. Coming up to a stop and waiting there has the advantage of allowing you to rest momentarily, let your attention go, refocus your eyes, etc. before resuming.

If you are ahead of me, forcing me to drive continually, you are forcning me to drive in an unnatural and fatiguing manner.

leroyjenkens

Oct31-09, 06:00 PM

What do you mean by that? Do you mean you always drive 10-15mph below the speed limit or just when coasting to a stop light? If you are driving that slow a lot of the time, then you are driving way too slow.

He asked me how slow I'm coasting at. If it's 5 - 15 MPH, so I responded by saying I get down to about 30-35 at the slowest. That's about the point I'm reaching the light.
I also take my foot off the gas as soon as I see a stop light in front of me (that I won't make it through) turn yellow, even if I'm still a quarter mile from it, but I've never had someone go around me to beat me to the light.
Really? I wanna move to your town. It happens to me all the time. I've even had a guy behind me right on my butt when I was coasting up to a train crossing. The train was obviously there and a big line of cars was there, but I was coasting up to it and I looked in my rear view mirror and this guy is flipping out in his car because I'm going so slow. So when he finds an oppening, he speeds up around me about 50 MPH all the way up to the line of cars, then stops. About 30 seconds later, I coast up right beside him.
What did he accomplish? Well I guess he got me back for making him have to go slow. He sped around me really fast and that gets back at me somehow.
You may be a candidate to drive an electric/hybrid vehicle.

I want a hybrid, but it's expensive to replace the battery. I'm waiting for an atomic fusion fueled car.
There's generally a happy medium somewhere between flooring the gas and slamming on the brake for every light and just toddling along so that you end up stopped at every light (you're not going to save much gas if you spend a lot of time idling at long lights you could have gotten through if you drove a little faster between them).
True, but sometimes it's like a guessing game. If you go fast, will you make it, or will you end up having to slam on your brakes? If you go slow, will you end up hitting the light or will the light turn red and then green again by the time you get to it?
If a lot of people are passing you, you might want to speed up some. If you feel like you're passing everyone, you might want to slow down some (it's probably a speed trap or cop ahead...ha ha). If you really are just stubborn about the speed you're driving, then if you want to go slow, keep over as far right as possible so others who want to go faster can get around, and if you want to drive fast, stick to the left lane so people can pull to the right out of the way (and if the right lane has no spaces between cars, don't ride the bumper of the person in front of you in the left lane if they are still gaining on them and looking for a place to get over). And for some (many?) people, the time saved getting to their destination is worth more than a few cents worth of gas.

I try to drive between the speed limit and 5 MPH over, but not over that. People still pass me. But it's not really the driving part that this issue is about, it's about the people who speed up ahead of you just to stop at the red light ahead.
Around here if you drive slow like that you will be pulled over and you will probably end up with a ticket. It's really dangerous driving slow causes a lot of accidents.
I think that's a misplaced cause. That's like blaming video games for kids shooting up the schools.
Someone is speeding and they hit a guy who's going slow, and it's the slow guy who caused the wreck?
I don't understand it, around here people give so much effort to get a car length ahead; weaving through traffic at 50 mph only to slam on their breaks moments later at a light, stop sign, etc. I usually drive 5-10 mph over the speed limit and virtually everyone behind me seems so impatient, it's unbelievable some times! Although, only on rare occasion do I observe other drivers going this "slow."
Seems like no matter how fast you go, there's always someone behind you, riding your butt, wanting you to go faster.
It's almost like everyone is observing my speed and whatever speed I'm going, they all adjust their speed so they're all going faster than me.
I hate red lights. I wish the person who made the red lights should have died before coming up with that idea. I also hate people in the front of the lines who decide to stop too early. Include those also who would take few seconds to accelerate when it turns green. I pass through about 20 light on my way to the work and back, and my happiness correlates with the number of the green lights I see.
That's exactly the way I feel.

And while we're on the subject of people stopping at lights, I hate the people who stop either too far ahead of the line or too far behind it when they're in a turn lane. Do these people not know that there's metal detectors on the ground to detect that their car is there? How do they think the light detects that they're there? Magic?
And I hate the timing on some of these lights. On my way to work there's about 3 lights that have the turn lane automatically turn green while I'm waiting to go straight and there's NEVER anybody there to turn. It's automatic and not triggered. That's ridiculous. And it's been that way for years. And to top it off, there's a website I can go to to complain about traffic timing, which I've done several times, yet they still haven't bothered to do anything about it.
There's also this road on my way home from work that has a side road on it. There's a light there and the side road gets a green light for about 5 times longer than the main road. So I always see a line of cars and trucks there, waiting for nobody, at this long red light. Then theirs turns green and then red again pretty soon, so people are forced to run it, otherwise traffic would build up too much. It's been like this for about a year now. It hadn't always been like that, someone changed it.
What really annoys me though is when I am trying to pull out onto a street and someone is snail pacing it to the light giving me the option of either wildly dashing out in front of them (which I do not do but rarely) or waiting for them and all of the traffic approaching behind them to pass before I can get on the road.
Now if I see somebody waiting at the side road, I'll speed up a little. I'm a pretty courteous driver, but I refuse to waste my gas on my 15 mile trip home from work just so I can appease some nutcase behind me. He can speed around me all he wants, but I spend enough gas already going to and from work to waste it.

Sorry for the long post.
There is a downside to what you're doing, even to drivers who aren't simply being pinheads.

By driving slowly when coming up to a light, it means that you (and they) must have your attention at 100% all the time. Personally, I find that fatiguing to do. Coming up to a stop and waiting there has the advantage of allowing you to rest momentarily, let your attention go, refocus your eyes, etc. before resuming.

If you are ahead of me, forcing me to drive continually, you are forcning me to drive in an unnatural and fatiguing manner.
It's no different than if the light was green and we didn't have to stop. Or do you only get fatigued when you have to go slower than the speed limit?

jimmysnyder

Oct31-09, 06:22 PM

I have a Honda Civic Hybrid. When I slow down enough, the engine shuts off while the car continues to roll. I move for free. It's not enough to retire on, but I like the idea so much that once in a while I stop on the highway just to see it work.

OmCheeto

Oct31-09, 06:40 PM

It's no different than if the light was green and we didn't have to stop. Or do you only get fatigued when you have to go slower than the speed limit?

How fatiguing can it be to place ones car into neutral when one is approaching a red light? If everyone did this, wouldn't they all coast down at pretty much the same rate?

You're not an ex-bicyclist are you? I can't imagine a bicyclist pedaling up to a red light at a constant speed and brake at the last moment. It simply doesn't make sense.

Perhaps we need an extra tail light on vehicles. I thought it might help out if we had a green light when we've our foot on the accelerator. It would remove some of the psychic requirements in trying to determine what the hell the guy in front of us is doing.

Moonbear

Oct31-09, 06:52 PM

I try to drive between the speed limit and 5 MPH over, but not over that. People still pass me. But it's not really the driving part that this issue is about, it's about the people who speed up ahead of you just to stop at the red light ahead.
Most people drive about 5 over nowadays, so the person driving exactly the speed limit tends to be seen as "slow." But, that's really not a big deal, since you're certainly entitled to choose to obey the law (as long as you're not going 5 under all the time). But, if people want to hurry up and wait, I don't see any reason to even give them a second thought. If they're in such a rush, let them go ahead of you. If they're just rushing ahead to sit at the same light you're stopping at, then they've accomplished nothing, but at least you won't have them tailgating you the rest of the drive.

Someone is speeding and they hit a guy who's going slow, and it's the slow guy who caused the wreck?
Nobody said anything about someone speeding and hitting someone who's going slow. If someone is driving well under the speed limit, they are a hazard even to those just going the speed limit. People have to start braking and passing, and increases the chances of an accident. Of course that's different if everyone is just stuck in traffic and can't go any faster. But if the road is generally open and people can drive the speed limit, suddenly encountering someone crawling along is a bad thing.

Seems like no matter how fast you go, there's always someone behind you, riding your butt, wanting you to go faster.
It's almost like everyone is observing my speed and whatever speed I'm going, they all adjust their speed so they're all going faster than me.
Then maybe you need to drive a little faster if EVERYONE seems to be doing that.

And while we're on the subject of people stopping at lights, I hate the people who stop either too far ahead of the line or too far behind it when they're in a turn lane. Do these people not know that there's metal detectors on the ground to detect that their car is there? How do they think the light detects that they're there? Magic?

I hate that too...and maybe those are the lights people are trying to speed up around you at? Maybe they are afraid that the light won't change for your direction if nobody is at the stop line fast enough? We have lights like that around here, not just for turn lanes, but where each of the 4 directions is allowed to go at a different time (because of the hills, you wouldn't be able to see someone trying to turn left until you were in the intersection already); they are on sensors, so if nobody is on the 4th side when it is that side's turn, the light changes instead for the first side, skipping the 4th, so if you miss it by a few seconds, you end up waiting for all three directions to go again before you get your turn.

Regarding Stat. Ape's point, the ones who really drive me bonkers are the people who turn right on red in front of you so you have to slow down even though you have the green light, and then they CRAWL! If they were in such a hurry to make that turn before you got through the intersection, they should step on the gas and get out of the way.

And, Monique, :rofl: Yes, I think you need to move to a new neighborhood. :rofl:

Monique

Oct31-09, 07:13 PM

And, Monique, :rofl: Yes, I think you need to move to a new neighborhood. :rofl: I know, but my bicycle does get near 24-h surveillance though :biggrin:

When I am going to take a crash-course in driving I think red lights are going to be the least of my problem, more all the pedestrians and bicyclers who have never heard of red traffic lights :rolleyes: Besides that I'm afraid that I'll park the car in one of the canals, but that's another issue.

DaveC426913

Oct31-09, 07:18 PM

How fatiguing can it be to place ones car into neutral when one is approaching a red light? If everyone did this, wouldn't they all coast down at pretty much the same rate?
You must still give 100% of your attention, no matter how fast or slow you're going*. But you're making much less progress.

*Actually, it requires more attention as you are approaching stopping since one must ensure one's speed is changing at the correct rate.

Stopping is the place where the most accidents occur. It requires far more mental distnace/speed estimations than any other time.

Your habit of coasting is actually dragging out and prolonging the very window wherein accidents are most likely to occur, not just for you, but everyone around you.

Moonbear

Oct31-09, 07:46 PM

I know, but my bicycle does get near 24-h surveillance though :biggrin:

When I am going to take a crash-course in driving I think red lights are going to be the least of my problem, more all the pedestrians and bicyclers who have never heard of red traffic lights :rolleyes: Besides that I'm afraid that I'll park the car in one of the canals, but that's another issue.

I can't believe you managed to live in Detroit without learning to drive.

leroyjenkens

Oct31-09, 07:46 PM

Most people drive about 5 over nowadays, so the person driving exactly the speed limit tends to be seen as "slow." But, that's really not a big deal, since you're certainly entitled to choose to obey the law (as long as you're not going 5 under all the time). But, if people want to hurry up and wait, I don't see any reason to even give them a second thought. If they're in such a rush, let them go ahead of you. If they're just rushing ahead to sit at the same light you're stopping at, then they've accomplished nothing, but at least you won't have them tailgating you the rest of the drive.

Normally I just think "what an idiot" and be done with it. But today was different, like the story I told, the guy sped up and purposely swerved into my lane cutting me off real close to my car really fast when the other lane was completely open. He did that purposely as if to get back at me for going slow. And then he eyed me in his side mirror the whole time I was at the red light. If I had honked my horn or something, I'm sure there would've been an incident. That guy was undoubtedly crazy, or his wife just left him or something.
I just wanted to find out if anyone else thought I did something abominable, or if I just encountered a lunatic.
Then maybe you need to drive a little faster if EVERYONE seems to be doing that.
The point I was getting at was sort of in jest. If I drove faster, everyone else would speed up even faster. It's like they always have to go faster than me, no matter what speed I'm going.
Regarding Stat. Ape's point, the ones who really drive me bonkers are the people who turn right on red in front of you so you have to slow down even though you have the green light, and then they CRAWL! If they were in such a hurry to make that turn before you got through the intersection, they should step on the gas and get out of the way.
I hate it when people speed up in front of me when I have to turn right at the red and they get in front of me in my lane because there's 1 car in the other lane and they want to be 1 car length further. So they block me from turning right, so I have to sit through the whole light. But they don't care.

Or what about those people who speed up behind you, then at the very last second, before clipping your bumper, they get in the other lane? Those people need to be banned from driving.
Or the people who come onto an on-ramp behind you, then soon as there's an opening, they speed up and try to go past you, not allowing you to get on the high way. But if you start getting on before they can pass you, they act as if they're perplexed as to where this car in front of them came from.
Your habit of coasting is actually dragging out and prolonging the very window wherein accidents are most likely to occur, not just for you, but everyone around you.
Seems sort of like nitpicking. Accidents happen everywhere, but surely someone slamming into me can't be my fault just because I'm going a little slower on the way up to a red light.
On the contrary, if I was behind someone and they had tinted windows or something and it didn't allow me to see cars in front of him, him hitting his brakes hard behind a line of cars would be more dangerous than him just going slow up to the line of cars. An unexpected braking is more dangerous than someone just going slow. If they're going slow, I figure it's for a reason, which is that they're soon going to have to stop.
But why am I suddenly responsible for crazy people behind me flipping out and doing something crazy?

Monique

Oct31-09, 08:05 PM

I can't believe you managed to live in Detroit without learning to drive. Sometimes I also don't believe it, but I think you should learn how to drive before you get to Detroit. I managed to get everything done on a bicycle, for the long trips (over 7 miles) I used to go with friends.

TurtleMeister

Oct31-09, 08:10 PM

You may be a candidate to drive an electric/hybrid vehicle.
Actually, it's the guy who goes around you and makes a hard stop that would benefit more from the electric/hybrid. Well, energy saving wise that is.

Do these people not know that there's metal detectors on the ground to detect that their car is there? How do they think the light detects that they're there? Magic?
This is most irritating to me when the driver is making a left turn onto a side road which has a left turn sensor. Instead of staying in his lane he crosses over into the sensor of the left turn lane triggering the red light. All the traffic on the main road then has to stop for nothing.

And I hate the timing on some of these lights. On my way to work there's about 3 lights that have the turn lane automatically turn green while I'm waiting to go straight and there's NEVER anybody there to turn. It's automatic and not triggered. That's ridiculous.
I have my own nick names for three different kinds of lights. Timer lights, sensor lights, and smart lights. The latter is quite rare. One of the annoyances of sensor lights is the type that changes immediately when a car on the side road pulls up to it. All vehicles on the main road must come to a stop to let this one vehicle turn. The light changes back and all vehicles on the main road accelerate. Moments later another car pulls up on the side road and the cycle repeats. What a waste! I can see little excuse for this with todays technology. The cost savings in gas would probably dwarf the cost of making it a smart light.

OmCheeto

Oct31-09, 08:13 PM

You must still give 100% of your attention, no matter how fast or slow you're going*. But you're making much less progress.

*Actually, it requires more attention as you are approaching stopping since one must ensure one's speed is changing at the correct rate.

Stopping is the place where the most accidents occur. It requires far more mental distnace/speed estimations than any other time.

Your habit of coasting is actually dragging out and prolonging the very window wherein accidents are most likely to occur, not just for you, but everyone around you.

I've yet to be rear ended coasting to a stop light, nor have I been in an accident while at the wheel*. Other peoples inattentiveness should not require me to drive like they are paying for my gas.

*There was this time when I was about 12 when I broadsided an automobile while riding my bicycle down the wrong side of the road at full speed. I still have the divot in my shin bone to show for that.

Moonbear

Oct31-09, 08:14 PM

Or what about those people who speed up behind you, then at the very last second, before clipping your bumper, they get in the other lane? Those people need to be banned from driving.
Or the people who come onto an on-ramp behind you, then soon as there's an opening, they speed up and try to go past you, not allowing you to get on the high way. But if you start getting on before they can pass you, they act as if they're perplexed as to where this car in front of them came from.

I'm seeing a pattern here. I think you need to start using the gas pedal a little more. I do that on the on ramps too, when the moron in front of me isn't accelerating up to a reasonable speed to merge. When you reach the end of the ramp, you should be going the speed of traffic you're merging with. If you haven't stepped on the gas hard enough, you're again making others slow down for you and making it more dangerous for the people behind you to find their opening...or making it more likely they'll just slam into you if they're trying to watch the openings in traffic and you're not accelerating as you should be.

OmCheeto

Oct31-09, 08:43 PM

I'm seeing a pattern here. I think you need to start using the gas pedal a little more. I do that on the on ramps too, when the moron in front of me isn't accelerating up to a reasonable speed to merge. When you reach the end of the ramp, you should be going the speed of traffic you're merging with. If you haven't stepped on the gas hard enough, you're again making others slow down for you and making it more dangerous for the people behind you to find their opening...or making it more likely they'll just slam into you if they're trying to watch the openings in traffic and you're not accelerating as you should be.

Now this is really turning into a "How to drive" free for all.......

One should always leave room in front for (non-jerk-wad cutter)people to merge.

Always use your blinkers when changing lanes.

Never accelerate like you are Shirley Muldowney (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirley_Muldowney) on steroids.

remember, wiki is our friend: most crashes related to speed involve speed too fast for the conditions.

And I would not characterize coasting to a red light as being too slow.

regardless of what those idiots at wiki post: evidence shows that the risk of having a crash is increased both for vehicles traveling slower than the average speed, and for those traveling above the average speed.

Evo

Oct31-09, 08:54 PM

Moonbear

Oct31-09, 09:08 PM

On highways, they have maximum and minimum speeds posted, 60 maximum and 45 minimum is very common. Of course, if you are going the minimum, you are expected to be in the right hand slow lane, not the faster left lane. Unfortunately, some people don't get this. It *is* in the driver's license handbook.
We don't have minimum speed limits posted here. I seem to see that more commonly the further west I travel. But, then we have some really steep mountain highways, so there are usually extra lanes for slower vehicles to stay right and big signs telling them to do so (I think it's pretty standard in most states that if you're going to drive more than 5 under the limit, you should put on your flashers and stay right to indicate to other drivers that you can't go any faster).

What I hate even more are the people that slow down when they approach a light that has been green for awhile, then when it turns yellow, they gun it and speed through the intersection, causing you to miss the light. I want to use my phaser on these people.
Oh, that really is annoying. I haven't seen that in a long time though. I used to encounter that a lot in OH, people slowing down for green lights. I wanted to get a cattle prod to help them move along.

Lately I've just been frustrated with people being slow in general, for no particular reason. Just yesterday, as I was heading to work, in the right lane was a big dump truck. Okay, I know why they are moving slow, because those don't accelerate quickly and need a long time to stop, so can't just barrel down the road. But, then in the left lane, next to the dump trunk was someone in a minivan driving JUST AS SLOW as the dump truck. C'mon, I KNOW a minivan can accelerate faster than a dump truck. And if for some reason you can't, then get over in the right lane behind the truck and let everyone else pass. Getting caught at lights and stuck behind slow people can easily add 10 min to my commute to work...and it's not that long of a commute to begin with, so 10 min is a substantial amount of time to add to it.

DaveC426913

Oct31-09, 11:10 PM

I've yet to be rear ended coasting to a stop light,
Well, you've run rings around me logically now 'aven't you? :biggrin:

OmCheeto

Oct31-09, 11:30 PM

Well, you've run rings around me logically now 'aven't you? :biggrin:

Logic? No man.... Statistics! There you are. I've never taken the class, but I feel I'm an expert with all this swine flu thing. By tomorrow morning, you and I 'll be the only ones left alive to run the forum, and we won't have to worry about any directional thing (http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=348682&page=5).

And please don't be coasting to any red lights, as I'm out of coffee, and I'll be a bit in a hurry......

jimmysnyder

Nov1-09, 03:14 AM

If you are ahead of me, forcing me to drive continually, you are forcning me to drive in an unnatural and fatiguing manner.
Not so. You are free to come to a complete stop if you wish to.

fuzzyfelt

Nov1-09, 07:17 AM

OmCheeto

Nov1-09, 08:38 AM

I find that often a turning lane opens up close to the traffic lights, and although the main lights are red the turning arrow is green and coasters sometimes don't consider those behind that may wish to catch the green arrow to turn. Other than that, I find most traffic around me very considerate. I like this song, and often find it rather apt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2UUvG-XuQs

Actually, the above is one of several instances where I will adjust my driving habits.
1. Someone behind wants to make the green left turn. Maintain velocity until the last moment to facilitate their move. Forcing someone to sit at a light is a greater waste than the nano ounce of gas you'll save by coasting.
2. A vehicle of larger mass pulls up behind me as the light turns green. Accelerate to minimize the larger vehicles loss of kinetic energy.

The highway is a system, and overall losses should be minimized, regardless of how cheap I am. o:)

But when traffic is bumper to bumper, I see no legitimate reason to let sociopathic drivers in front of me, and feel no remorse nor guilt when they rear end someone in the next lane because they were too busy looking and cursing at me for "cutting them off" to notice that their line of traffic had stopped. :devil:

Nice song by the way.

We should have more music.

Mambo No. 8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsqlDQKaMAU)

leroyjenkens

Nov1-09, 08:46 AM

BobG

Nov1-09, 09:46 AM

The simpler solution is to just stomp on the gas, accelerating to a speed that turns the red lights green due to Doppler shift.

BobG

Nov1-09, 10:40 AM

I learned to drive in a standard transmission car by my mother. She would put a glass (three quarters full) of water on the dash. I learned to drive such that it would not spill.
:)

My mom used to do this, except with a cup of hot coffee. With seven kids in the car, the youngest used to wind up sitting in the middle of the front seat. If he screamed, my mom knew she'd stepped on the gas a little too hard.

Actually, she was a little more coordinated than that. We used to have a cinder Y driveway, with my dad's car on one side of the Y and my mom's on the other. With seven kids in the car on schoolday mornings, my mom had to release a little frustration, so would spin the tires as she backed up from her side of the Y to my dad's side of the Y, slam on the brakes and neatly snatch the sliding cup of coffee, then spin the tires as she drove down the driveway. All frustration having been burnt off, she was able to slow down to a safe speed by the end of the driveway and drove safely to school the rest of the way (except for the morning she forgot to check the passenger side mirror and made a right turn in front of a shocked bicycle rider).

Then my dad started carpooling and his car suddenly started appearing on his side of the Y at the exact same time we were leaving for school. Things suddenly got very hairy .... for my little brother, at least - the rest of us kids thought it was hilarious (even though a little painful, since we didn't dare laugh or even smirk out loud).

(By the way, this was the same little brother that went through most of his childhood with no 'M' encyclopedia. His childhood sucked. In fact, I think it's more than coincidence that he never had any children of his own.)

Chi Meson

Nov1-09, 11:31 AM

Well, you've run rings around me logically now 'aven't you? :biggrin:

Intercourse the penguin!

DaveC426913

Nov1-09, 12:51 PM

(By the way, this was the same little brother that went through most of his childhood with no 'M' encyclopedia.
For our younger members:

An 'encyclopedia' is a Wikipedia published in book form.

Hm.

A 'book' is a website that has been burned onto paper.

Ah...

'Paper' is...

...

Oh go text your parents about it.

fuzzyfelt

Nov2-09, 06:00 AM

Actually, the above is one of several instances where I will adjust my driving habits.
1. Someone behind wants to make the green left turn. Maintain velocity until the last moment to facilitate their move. Forcing someone to sit at a light is a greater waste than the nano ounce of gas you'll save by coasting.
2. A vehicle of larger mass pulls up behind me as the light turns green. Accelerate to minimize the larger vehicles loss of kinetic energy.

The highway is a system, and overall losses should be minimized, regardless of how cheap I am. o:)

But when traffic is bumper to bumper, I see no legitimate reason to let sociopathic drivers in front of me, and feel no remorse nor guilt when they rear end someone in the next lane because they were too busy looking and cursing at me for "cutting them off" to notice that their line of traffic had stopped. :devil:

Nice song by the way.

We should have more music.

Mambo No. 8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsqlDQKaMAU)

Agreed!
That was a good youtube, thanks Om.

Burma

BobG

Nov2-09, 10:41 AM

I also take my foot off the gas as soon as I see a stop light in front of me (that I won't make it through) turn yellow, even if I'm still a quarter mile from it, but I've never had someone go around me to beat me to the light.

Really? I wanna move to your town. It happens to me all the time. I've even had a guy behind me right on my butt when I was coasting up to a train crossing. The train was obviously there and a big line of cars was there, but I was coasting up to it and I looked in my rear view mirror and this guy is flipping out in his car because I'm going so slow. So when he finds an oppening, he speeds up around me about 50 MPH all the way up to the line of cars, then stops. About 30 seconds later, I coast up right beside him.
What did he accomplish? Well I guess he got me back for making him have to go slow. He sped around me really fast and that gets back at me somehow.

This is why most people should keep on living on the East coast or the West coast. They're crazy.

Living in the Midwest is much more relaxing in lots of ways and driving is one of them. Some people are actually courteous even when they're in their cars.

There are exceptions where it makes sense to pass someone just to get in front of them before a stop light. There might not be an immediate gain, but both adjacent lanes are going to fill up with traffic at a stop light. If you wait to pass, you're still stuck behind a slow driver, but now with no opportunity to pass. Realistically, an opportunity to pass is an opportunity to pass - if the driver ahead of you has already shown they're going to drive slower than you, then you take advantage of it (this isn't the case when a driver is coasting towards a light and will almost certainly speed back up once the light turns green).

leroyjenkens

Nov2-09, 11:35 AM

There are exceptions where it makes sense to pass someone just to get in front of them before a stop light. There might not be an immediate gain, but both adjacent lanes are going to fill up with traffic at a stop light. If you wait to pass, you're still stuck behind a slow driver, but now with no opportunity to pass. Realistically, an opportunity to pass is an opportunity to pass - if the driver ahead of you has already shown they're going to drive slower than you, then you take advantage of it (this isn't the case when a driver is coasting towards a light and will almost certainly speed back up once the light turns green).
That's what happens a lot on my 30 minute drive from work. Someone will be behind me coasting up to a red light, they'll think that's how fast I go all the time, they'll get in the other lane, I'll speed up and get pretty far ahead and then they'll get back in my lane behind me, or behind a few cars that got directly behind me when he moved.

I'm just really sick of bad/crazy drivers. I was watching Trauma: Life in the ER yesterday night and even if I didn't hear what happened to the person, when I hear their injuries, like torn aortas, I know it was a car accident. People go to great lengths to just get a few yards closer to their destination, endangering entire families with their stunts they pull on the road and I refuse to accomodate them.

DaveC426913

Nov2-09, 12:30 PM

... when I hear their injuries, like torn aortas, I know it was a car accident. People go to great lengths to just get a few yards closer to their destination, endangering entire families with their stunts they pull on the road and I refuse to accomodate them.
This is a generalization and far too broad a brush-stroke. You've gone from your behaviour on the road to presuming how everyone else behaves and why they behave that way and what you think happens to them.

leroyjenkens

Nov2-09, 01:11 PM

This is a generalization and far too broad a brush-stroke. You've gone from your behaviour on the road to presuming how everyone else behaves and why they behave that way and what you think happens to them.

I'm just making the generalization that drivers who take risks and drive recklessly cause accidents. I think that's fair.

DaveC426913

Nov2-09, 02:36 PM

I'm just making the generalization that drivers who take risks and drive recklessly cause accidents. I think that's fair.

Yes but your premise does not lead to this. Driving up to a stoplight instead of coasting has nothing to do with taking risks or driving recklessly. Essentially what you've committed is the logical fallacy of "straw man". (Or is it "red herring"? I always forget the difference....)

leroyjenkens

Nov2-09, 03:04 PM

Yes but your premise does not lead to this. Driving up to a stoplight instead of coasting has nothing to do with taking risks or driving recklessly. Essentially what you've committed is the logical fallacy of "straw man". (Or is it "red herring"? I always forget the difference....)
I also mentioned their "stunts". How is driving up to a stoplight a stunt?

DaveC426913

Nov2-09, 04:58 PM

I also mentioned their "stunts". How is driving up to a stoplight a stunt?

Uh. Right. That too. So, three ways you've made a non sequitur between your premise and your conclusion.

Sorry!

Nov2-09, 05:23 PM

I'm just making the generalization that drivers who take risks and drive recklessly cause accidents. I think that's fair.

I have already stated anyways that it is people who drive as YOU are the main cause of a lot of accidents. On the highway in the city everywhere.

The way you're coming off to me right now is quite arrogant and selfish.

You're one person and you're saying that you're not going to accomodate everyone else on the road because of a few accidents you saw on a T.V. show (which you don't even know if it was from a car accident you pressume so based on the injuries???)

It's the rest of the drivers on the road that are forced to accomodate you whether they are driving around you or slowing down behind you they are still forced to accomodate your rediculous driving habit.

leroyjenkens

Nov2-09, 06:32 PM

Uh. Right. That too. So, three ways you've made a non sequitur between your premise and your conclusion.

Why is my premise automatically stuck on people who simply don't slow down up to a red light? We've been talking about all kinds of traffic related problems we have throughout the entire thread, yet you're holding me to one specific thing that none of my other posts can slightly divert from.
But regardless, the original post was about a guy who cut me off really fast. I guess you don't see that as dangerous.
I have already stated anyways that it is people who drive as YOU are the main cause of a lot of accidents. On the highway in the city everywhere.
That's great. You can state you're the president of the united states, that doesn't make it true.
The main cause of accidents are careful drivers and not drunk or reckless drivers. Ok buddy, whatever you say.
The way you're coming off to me right now is quite arrogant and selfish.

You're one person and you're saying that you're not going to accomodate everyone else on the road because of a few accidents you saw on a T.V. show (which you don't even know if it was from a car accident you pressume so based on the injuries???)

It's the rest of the drivers on the road that are forced to accomodate you whether they are driving around you or slowing down behind you they are still forced to accomodate your rediculous driving habit.
I'm coming off arrogant and selfish because I won't accomodate what I deem as reckless driving, yet those other people aren't arrogant and selfish for not accomodating anyone else? It amazes me that you don't see how that should go both ways.
So how fast you should be going is now dictated by how fast the guy behind you wants to go?
You tell me what I should do. Should I just floor it up to the red light so I can appease the impatiant guy behind me, since me going 5-10 MPH slower on the way up to a red light is apparently the end of the world? That's what it sounds like.
I'm arrogant and selfish because I don't want to speed up to a red light, which forces people behind me not to speed up to a red light? That doesn't even come close to making sense. That's just a complete miss.

I have a ridiculous driving habit? That just seems like a baseless cheapshot. You didn't even bother to elaborate what's ridiculous about it. Saving money is ridiculous? That's brilliant logic right there.
Why are you getting hostile? I can only conclude you're the type of driver that we're all complaining about, since you're suddenly getting so defensive about it.
Sorry I think people should be more careful than they are driving a giant metal weapon.

Sorry!

Nov2-09, 08:45 PM

That's great. You can state you're the president of the united states, that doesn't make it true.
The main cause of accidents are careful drivers and not drunk or reckless drivers. Ok buddy, whatever you say.

I'm coming off arrogant and selfish because I won't accomodate what I deem as reckless driving, yet those other people aren't arrogant and selfish for not accomodating anyone else? It amazes me that you don't see how that should go both ways.
So how fast you should be going is now dictated by how fast the guy behind you wants to go?
You tell me what I should do. Should I just floor it up to the red light so I can appease the impatiant guy behind me, since me going 5-10 MPH slower on the way up to a red light is apparently the end of the world? That's what it sounds like.
I'm arrogant and selfish because I don't want to speed up to a red light, which forces people behind me not to speed up to a red light? That doesn't even come close to making sense. That's just a complete miss.

I have a ridiculous driving habit? That just seems like a baseless cheapshot. You didn't even bother to elaborate what's ridiculous about it. Saving money is ridiculous? That's brilliant logic right there.
Why are you getting hostile? I can only conclude you're the type of driver that we're all complaining about, since you're suddenly getting so defensive about it.
Sorry I think people should be more careful than they are driving a giant metal weapon.

Who is drunk and how is driving PROPERLY reckless? Driving IMPROPERlY is reckless, everyone on the road expects you to drive properly so they can anticipate what you will do. If you're randomly coasting to a stop from way out no, your not driving properly. It doesn't matter if you're saving money protecting the forest or the bears; it's all about safe-driving.

Where are you from I might add because if you drive slowly as you've been saying you will get pulled over and given a ticket where I'm from (around Toronto).
You may not believe it, or want to poke fun at it by trying to make it look like I'm lying but that's the facts.

As well no I wouldn't consider myself a reckless driver as I don't even drive. Nice try on the 'your only defensive because you do it.' As well I can speak my opinion here since I have friends who are currently in police foundations, friends who have already graduated police foundations, and friends who are part of the police force. As well this exact topic (people driving slowly) came up in one of my law class debates.

TurtleMeister

Nov3-09, 12:29 AM

I've never seen minimum speed limits posted for streets with red lights. I think that aggressive driving is far more of a safety issue than is driving too slow (on these types of roads).

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/injury/enforce/aggressdrivers/aggenforce/define.html
Some behaviors typically associated with aggressive driving include: exceeding the posted speed limit, following too closely, erratic or unsafe lane changes, improperly signaling lane changes, failure to obey traffic control devices (stop signs, yield signs, traffic signals, railroad grade cross signals, etc.).

It's very annoying when I encounter drivers who zigzag in and out of lanes just to gain a few car lengths. Really, how much difference will it make in the time it takes for them to reach their destination? However, it is also annoying when I encounter drivers who are driving too slow. But this is not unsafe, unless I make it unsafe by doing the things listed in the above quote.

Sorry!

Nov3-09, 01:02 AM

I've never seen minimum speed limits posted for streets with red lights. I think that aggressive driving is far more of a safety issue than is driving too slow (on these types of roads).

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/injury/enforce/aggressdrivers/aggenforce/define.html

It's very annoying when I encounter drivers who zigzag in and out of lanes just to gain a few car lengths. Really, how much difference will it make in the time it takes for them to reach their destination? However, it is also annoying when I encounter drivers who are driving too slow. But this is not unsafe, unless I make it unsafe by doing the things listed in the above quote.

I'm pretty sure it's called impeding traffic. If you cause yourself to become an obstacle to other cares and impede the flow of traffic you can get a ticket.

I've looked it up not only is it something that the OPP/regional ontario police forces enforces it is also found all over the states mostly for the highways but it doesn't mean the law isn't there for in cities/towns it only means that the police of these areas are less likely to enforce it.

TurtleMeister

Nov3-09, 01:31 AM

Yes, I can agree that if you make yourself an obstacle for no reason then that is a problem. You just have to use some common sense. A guy slowing down or drifting to a red light is not impeding traffic. Look at it this way, if you rear end the guy who do you think will get the ticket? If you race to get around him and cause an accident, who do you think will get the ticket? I don't think making the claim that the other guy was impeding traffic will work as your defense.

TheStatutoryApe

Nov3-09, 02:57 AM

I'm coming off arrogant and selfish because I won't accomodate what I deem as reckless driving.... ?
Driving properly requires that you "accommodate" poor drivers. That does not mean that you ought to drive improperly yourself of course, there are other ways of preventing issues. If you have people continually champing at the bit and swerving around you at high speeds when you are coasting at below the speed limit then maybe you should speed up a bit. I coast up to red lights as well but I normally drive at or just above the speed limit and my car stays at about the speed limit as I coast to the light. It may start dropping off more when I am nearly at the light. Personally my car does not like to accelerate from a slow coast so I always try to make sure that I am either at a complete stop or still at a decent clip before the light changes. I do not generally have people swerving to get around me except the crazies driving 90+ on the freeways.

Its the responsibility of everyone on the road to prevent accidents not just to drive as they see fit, including those who see fit simply to drive by the rules. If you say to yourself "well I'm driving properly and they are not so if they get in an accident it will be their fault" then you are not thinking properly. Yeah, if they plow into your car or side swipe you while driving stupid then it is their fault. But you will still have a wrecked car in the shop and possibly injuries. Is being able to say you were driving properly and its all their fault going to erase that? So if you can reasonably (<---before you choose to respond to this please remember this word) change your driving habits to accommodate these people and so reduce the likelihood of an accident would that not be better than being in a hospital and being able to say that it was supposedly all their fault?

Some behaviors typically associated with aggressive driving include: exceeding the posted speed limit, following too closely, erratic or unsafe lane changes, improperly signaling lane changes, failure to obey traffic control devices (stop signs, yield signs, traffic signals, railroad grade cross signals, etc.).
When you are driving the speed limit and the person in front of you is driving bellow the speed limit you are likely to wind up rather close to their bumper before you are able to adjust your speed properly for a safe following distance unless of course you just slam on your brakes and come quickly to a slower speed which is at least as unsafe as following closely behind someone. And if this person is going to slow for your taste and you decide to get around them your now slower speed due to being behind someone driving under the speed limit makes your lane change into a lane with traffic going at the speed limit (probably also with the people approaching behind you changes lanes to not be behind the slow person) inherently less unsafe.

leroyjenkens

Nov3-09, 10:21 AM

Who is drunk and how is driving PROPERLY reckless?
You said people who drive like me are the main cause of a lot of accidents. Do you have any stats to back that up, or do you just say stuff like that for effect?
Driving IMPROPERlY is reckless, everyone on the road expects you to drive properly so they can anticipate what you will do. If you're randomly coasting to a stop from way out no, your not driving properly. It doesn't matter if you're saving money protecting the forest or the bears; it's all about safe-driving.
If I take my foot off the gas at a stop light, it's not random, is it? Yes, "randomly" taking my foot off the gas and coasting would be improper. But since I don't do that, I'm not driving improperly.
Where are you from I might add because if you drive slowly as you've been saying you will get pulled over and given a ticket where I'm from (around Toronto).
Florida.
I never said I drive slow. Where are you pulling that from? And even if I did drive slow, if I'm not driving under the minimum, there's no reason I would get a ticket.
But if I go to Toronto, I'll remember not to drive slow. As ambiguous a statement as that is, I appreciate it.
You may not believe it, or want to poke fun at it by trying to make it look like I'm lying but that's the facts.
Well I believe you, there's minimum speed limits. But what exactly would the cop be pulling you over for if you're not going below the minimum? Is there a minimum speed limit in Toronto, or do you not know what the minimum is until you get a ticket for it?
As well no I wouldn't consider myself a reckless driver as I don't even drive. Nice try on the 'your only defensive because you do it.'
I'm not trying to insult you, but you seemed to get defensive and really adamant about it. And saying my driving style is ridiculous, without even giving me a reason why.
As well I can speak my opinion here since I have friends who are currently in police foundations, friends who have already graduated police foundations, and friends who are part of the police force. As well this exact topic (people driving slowly) came up in one of my law class debates.
You can speak your opinion regardless of all that. I welcome anyone's opinion. But it seemed rather irrational to say my driving style is ridiculous when I believe it's completely logical. Could you explain why you think it's ridiculous?
Ridiculous is a strong word. By saying it's ridiculous, that's implying my driving style is completely backwards and needs an overhaul to rectify it. Or were you just saying that for effect?
I'm pretty sure it's called impeding traffic. If you cause yourself to become an obstacle to other cares and impede the flow of traffic you can get a ticket.
If you going the minimum impedes traffic, then they need to increase the minimum. It's as simple as that. It's the burden of the city to fix that problem, not you.
Driving properly requires that you "accommodate" poor drivers. That does not mean that you ought to drive improperly yourself of course, there are other ways of preventing issues. If you have people continually champing at the bit and swerving around you at high speeds when you are coasting at below the speed limit then maybe you should speed up a bit.
I don't go much below the speed limit when coasting up to the red light. I know some of you are picturing me poking along at 10 MPH. If the speed limit is 45, I don't even get down to 30 before hitting the light. That's not slow enough to warrant some of the behavior I've seen.

But why is it my responsibility to speed up when someone wants to speed around me recklessly? I could speed up and people would still be doing it.
I coast up to red lights as well but I normally drive at or just above the speed limit and my car stays at about the speed limit as I coast to the light.
I do too. It's just that I know the timing of the lights on my way home from work, so if I'm 100 yards from this specific light, I know I can take my foot off the gas and about the time I reach it, it'll be turning green. I don't get down too slow, but normally people go about 10-15 MPH above the speed limit, so of course that's too slow for them.
Its the responsibility of everyone on the road to prevent accidents not just to drive as they see fit, including those who see fit simply to drive by the rules. If you say to yourself "well I'm driving properly and they are not so if they get in an accident it will be their fault" then you are not thinking properly. Yeah, if they plow into your car or side swipe you while driving stupid then it is their fault. But you will still have a wrecked car in the shop and possibly injuries. Is being able to say you were driving properly and its all their fault going to erase that? So if you can reasonably (<---before you choose to respond to this please remember this word) change your driving habits to accommodate these people and so reduce the likelihood of an accident would that not be better than being in a hospital and being able to say that it was supposedly all their fault?

You're completely right. And I do a lot of things that prevent accidents. Like if I'm about to change lanes and I see in my rear view mirror some maniac coming up behind me about 100 MPH and changing lanes, I'll just stay in my lane and let that guy pass. Legally I could just let him hit me or cause a huge accident with someone else and it wouldn't be my fault, but I don't want to deal with that. I'd rather just honk my horn and call him some names.
I've also been forced to run red lights because as I'm coming up to the light, a guy is like 2 inches from my bumper. If I stopped, he would hit me. They intimidate me into running it, which of course, they do too. I could have stopped and caused an accident, but again, I don't want to deal with that.
That's one reason cops need to crack down on tailgaters. Speeding is looked at as like the number one thing cops will give you a ticket for, but sometimes speeding isn't really that big of a deal. If you've got an open road and you go like 60 in a 45, that's not NEARLY as dangerous as tailgaters and those people who change lanes 2 inches from your bumper while speeding up behind you.
When you are driving the speed limit and the person in front of you is driving bellow the speed limit you are likely to wind up rather close to their bumper before you are able to adjust your speed properly for a safe following distance unless of course you just slam on your brakes and come quickly to a slower speed which is at least as unsafe as following closely behind someone. And if this person is going to slow for your taste and you decide to get around them your now slower speed due to being behind someone driving under the speed limit makes your lane change into a lane with traffic going at the speed limit (probably also with the people approaching behind you changes lanes to not be behind the slow person) inherently less unsafe.
You can see when you're coming up on someone who is going slower than you. It's not like you can only recognize their speed when you get 10 inches from their bumper.
That's what I hate, people come speeding up behind me going over the speed limit, then slow down really quickly right before they smack into me. They saw my car there, but to me it looks like they tried to intimidate me into going faster, or to make me change lanes.
But that's the thing, some people will speed up behind you and right before they hit you, they change lanes. How do I know who is and who isn't going to do that? So if I change lanes for this guy speeding up behind me, he may change lanes too, thinking I'm gonna stay in that other lane.
People, inexplicably, don't realize that other drivers don't know their intentions. For instance, sometimes I'll be merging onto a highway and someone will give me like 2 inches to get in. I don't know his intentions, so I'm wary of getting over until he sits there for a few seconds indicating he's not trying to speed past me.
I'm a courteous driver, so I give people like 10 feet to get in, so they know my intentions.

BobG

Nov3-09, 11:05 AM

everyone on the road expects you to drive properly so they can anticipate what you will do.

The communication part of driving is the key. It's the reason for a lot of our traffic laws. Everyone knows who gets to go first, and who has to yield, etc. Just remember that the intent of the laws are more important than the laws themselves.

If you're driving the speed limit in the left lane of the interstate, it's you that's doing something that other drivers don't anticipate. If you stop at a yellow light in Monday morning rush hour traffic, expect to hear cars skidding behind you as all 20 cars behind you are in total shock at what you just did.

There's two parts to learning how to drive: learn the laws; learn the local driving rythyms. They don't always coincide and obnoxiously taking the position that every other driver is wrong for failing to anticipate that there might be one driver that adheres religiously to the law is driving improperly.

That has little to do with the original post, since typing what a person does at stoplights isn't sufficient to give a good picture. Passing at a stop light could be a reasonable action or an unreasonable action. There isn't enough info to tell.

None the less, the frequency of problems a driver has is an indication of whether he's driving 'properly'. Infrequent problems are due to jerks that fail to fit into the local traffic environment. Frequent problems are an indication that you might be the jerk.

leroyjenkens

Nov3-09, 12:02 PM

If you're driving the speed limit in the left lane of the interstate, it's you that's doing something that other drivers don't anticipate.
And convenient store robbers don't anticipate the clerk to fight back, that doesn't mean the clerk is wrong. People who are speeding are breaking the law, not the person going the speed limit. Heck, the guy going the speed limit is close to breaking the law himself. Any faster and he's breaking the rules.
The speed limit isn't a suggestion. Because people so often go faster than the speed limit, everyone tends to disregard it. People have even created the myth that you're "allowed" to go 5 over. That's just simply not true. You can technically be pulled over for going 1 MPH over.
They don't always coincide and obnoxiously taking the position that every other driver is wrong for failing to anticipate that there might be one driver that adheres religiously to the law is driving improperly.

Think about what you're saying. You're saying I'm supposed to anticipate that everyone else won't anticipate what I'm going to do. 100% of the anticipation is suddenly on me. No one else is held responsible for not anticipating something?
None the less, the frequency of problems a driver has is an indication of whether he's driving 'properly'. Infrequent problems are due to jerks that fail to fit into the local traffic environment. Frequent problems are an indication that you might be the jerk.

That's not necessarily true. It's not that simple. A lot of other people may have just as many problems, they're just not as vocal about it as I am. I have a friend who doesn't do the coasting up to red lights thing, but he complains about traffic more than I do.

The only way to tell who is at fault is to analyze each specific incident. If each one indicates that the other people are at fault, then the sheer quantity of problems doesn't change that fact.
There isn't a giant grey area with traffic laws, where you're allowed (or expected) to bend certain laws and break others.
It's pretty bad when someone who follows the rules is deemed a jerk.

Sorry!

Nov3-09, 12:10 PM

Tobias Funke

Nov3-09, 12:17 PM

Kind of off topic, but wouldn't it be nice if bike riders stopped at red lights like they're supposed to? I don't know why they get mad at me for walking in front of them when they should be stopped.

DaveC426913

Nov3-09, 12:26 PM

Kind of off topic, but wouldn't it be nice if bike riders stopped at red lights like they're supposed to?AHAHAHA! While we're at it, wouldn't it be nice if the Moon were made of gold?

BobG

Nov3-09, 12:43 PM

Kind of off topic, but wouldn't it be nice if bike riders stopped at red lights like they're supposed to? I don't know why they get mad at me for walking in front of them when they should be stopped.

Communication! Communication! Communication!

A broomstick through the front spokes will communicate your feelings a little more effectively than getting run over will.

And the best part is that bicycle riders rarely carry guns. Of course, the worst part is that you just armed them with a broomstick and he's probably in a lot better shape than you. He's going to catch you eventually and do really bad things to you with that broomstick.

leroyjenkens

Nov3-09, 02:49 PM

While the speed limit is the 'limit' your suppsoed to go on these roads you're actually supposed to go with the flow of traffic. Did you ever go through driving school? This is one of the most important things they teach you and it's always repeated again and again; do not disturb the flow of traffic.
This contradicts what the police enforce. They have speed traps where they pull people over one by one. There's a road on the way to my gym and the flow of traffic is always above the speed limit. They'll have cops hiding in one of the side streets with a radar detector and they'll pull tons of people over one by one. I'm never speeding, or at least not as much as the other people, and I never get pulled over.
When's the last time you've heard of someone getting a ticket for disturbing the flow of traffic?

turbo-1

Nov3-09, 02:56 PM

When's the last time you've heard of someone getting a ticket for disturbing the flow of traffic?Want to test this? Try driving 45 mph on an interstate highway. 20mph under is a whole lot more disruptive than 20 mph over because people don't expect it, and they'll close on you very quickly.

Monique

Nov3-09, 03:02 PM

Want to test this? Try driving 45 mph on an interstate highway. 20mph under is a whole lot more disruptive than 20 mph over because people don't expect it, and they'll close on you very quickly. Legal minimum speed is 40 mph on interstate highways right? It may be disruptive (mainly because people are driving faster than the max speed), but it doesn't break a law.

turbo-1

Nov3-09, 03:15 PM

Legal minimum speed is 40 mph on interstate highways right? It may be disruptive (mainly because people are driving faster than the max speed), but it doesn't break a law.At least in Maine, I believe the legal minimum on I-95 is 45 mph, except in severe weather conditions. You can and will be ticketed for that kind of violation. "Driving to Endanger" is a pretty broad offense with a wide range of penalties (at the discretion of the judge and with the input of the officer) and it doesn't require you to drive at excessive speeds to earn the fine.

Drive that slow on the Mass Pike, the NJ throughway, etc, and the troopers will get quite creative about issuing citations. If you are not driving at least 5-10 mph over the posted limit, they will see you as an obstruction to the orderly flow of traffic. It's perverse, but speed limits are not enforced consistently from state to state.

leroyjenkens

Nov3-09, 03:25 PM

At least in Maine, I believe the legal minimum on I-95 is 45 mph, except in severe weather conditions. You can and will be ticketed for that kind of violation. "Driving to Endanger" is a pretty broad offense with a wide range of penalties (at the discretion of the judge and with the input of the officer) and it doesn't require you to drive at excessive speeds to earn the fine.

Drive that slow on the Mass Pike, the NJ throughway, etc, and the troopers will get quite creative about issuing citations. If you are not driving at least 5-10 mph over the posted limit, they will see you as an obstruction to the orderly flow of traffic. It's perverse, but speed limits are not enforced consistently from state to state.
That's entrapment.
If they don't want people going 45, it's THEIR responsibilty to raise the minimum speed limit. Them telling you that you can go 45, then ticketing you because you do so is criminal.
Honestly, I'd have to see proof of this before I believe it. You can't expect people to break the law to avoid breaking a different law.
And just because everybody is going that fast, doesn't mean a cop won't single you out.

jimmysnyder

Nov3-09, 04:40 PM

Drive that slow on the Mass Pike, the NJ throughway, etc, and the troopers will get quite creative about issuing citations. If you are not driving at least 5-10 mph over the posted limit, they will see you as an obstruction to the orderly flow of traffic.
NJ Turnpike? I don't recall seeing a posted minimum anywhere in NJ, but there are portions of the state I haven't been to yet. A few years back they increased the upper limit on I-295 from 55 to 65, but not on all portions of the highway. You need to keep your eyes open for the changes and that seems to me more dangerous than it needs to be. When they upped the limit, there was a stern warning from the governor that going even 1 mile over the new limit would result in a ticket. That never occured (except for that profiling thing) and it is rare to see anyone doing less than 70. Many do 75.

BobG

Nov3-09, 04:56 PM

And convenient store robbers don't anticipate the clerk to fight back, that doesn't mean the clerk is wrong.

Actually, a convenience store clerk that fights back is wrong.

If the store has reasonable practices to make sure large sums of cash don't accumulate anywhere accessible to either the store robber or the clerk, then the store can't lose enough money to make it worthwhile to risk a store clerk's life. In fact, it's common for stores to make resisting a robbery an offense that can be punished by firing them.

Risk of employee injury and the potential liability of the store's insurance company tend to skyrocket when employees resist robberies. In fact, a single incident of workplace violence can wind up costing $250,000 - much more than the robber is likely to make off with in cash. (Interestingly, the risk of employee injury is higher when the robber has no gun than it is when the robber has a gun - that's probably directly related to the employee's willingness to resist a robbery in either situation). http://www.cops.usdoj.gov/files/RIC/Publications/e0407972.pdf

Obviously, no law is broken by an employee resisting a robbery. The employee has only violated his company's norms.

Off topic, but I employ a similar logic with my Jeep. I never lock my doors. I don't keep valuable objects in my Jeep, so the potential cost of having a thief slash my $800 soft top to gain access to my Jeep is a lot more worrisome than having my gloves, sunglasses, etc strewn about the interior of my Jeep. (Although the lack of valuables still doesn't alleviate the sense of violation that finding your stuff strewn about causes you.)

leroyjenkens

Nov3-09, 05:32 PM

Actually, a convenience store clerk that fights back is wrong.

If the store has reasonable practices to make sure large sums of cash don't accumulate anywhere accessible to either the store robber or the clerk, then the store can't lose enough money to make it worthwhile to risk a store clerk's life. In fact, it's common for stores to make resisting a robbery an offense that can be punished by firing them.

Risk of employee injury and the potential liability of the store's insurance company tend to skyrocket when employees resist robberies. In fact, a single incident of workplace violence can wind up costing $250,000 - much more than the robber is likely to make off with in cash. (Interestingly, the risk of employee injury is higher when the robber has no gun than it is when the robber has a gun - that's probably directly related to the employee's willingness to resist a robbery in either situation). http://www.cops.usdoj.gov/files/RIC/...s/e0407972.pdf

Obviously, no law is broken by an employee resisting a robbery. The employee has only violated his company's norms.

From what I've seen, clerks who fight back and drive the robbers off are hailed as heroes and featured on the news.

But that's really beside the point. The point was that if someone breaks the law, they're the ones who are responsible for the consequences. It's not everyone elses responsibility to go out of their way to accomodate people who may be breaking the law.
They know the speed limit, just as I do. So if they're speeding along and encounter someone going the speed limit, it's 100% their fault if they slam into them.
That's like blaming somebody for going just as soon as the light turns green if someone runs the red light and slams into them. The person running the red light didn't anticipate them to go immediately, so they thought they could make it. They were wrong, and they're 100% at fault.

BobG

Nov3-09, 05:53 PM

From what I've seen, clerks who fight back and drive the robbers off are hailed as heroes and featured on the news.

A person that turns their test in late and slides it into the middle of the pile, knowing the class is too big for the professor to know the student's name would be seen as clever (although I imagine he wouldn't want to be featured on the news and blow his anonymity). A Robin Hood that steals from the rich and gives to the poor would be seen as a hero.

There's a difference between what the public considers heroic and/or acceptable and what a company would consider acceptable. The company is concerned about how many dollars come in and how many dollars go out; not about fairness or heroism. The public likes heroes and couldn't care less whether Seven-Eleven makes a profit or loss this quarter.

And keep in the mind, the public that is supporting the store clerk's resistance is the same public that finds driving 5 mph over the speed limit and the first 3 cars running a red light as acceptable.

DaveC426913

Nov3-09, 09:14 PM

The public likes heroes and couldn't care less whether Seven-Eleven makes a profit or loss this quarter.Well... it's still not about the profit or loss, there is an employee that gets injured.

Pythagorean

Nov3-09, 09:20 PM

I applaud your efforts in not wasting unnecessarily, but if this is happening a lot, then maybe you are coasting a bit too slow

but I mean... it's a stop sign. I do the same thing. If anything, more often than not, I get through the light FASTER because I still have momentum by the time it turns green, and I pass the cars that are waiting at the light.

When people get all pissy and pull around me and zoom up to stop at the red light, they get even more pissed when I pass them in this casual manner.

mgb_phys

Nov3-09, 09:31 PM

Just today I had some guy speed up around me a thousand MPH and cut in front of my really fast as if to say "take that for going slow"
I think you misunderstood.
Almost all accidents at junctions happen to the first car pulling into the junction.
This guy was obviously so pleased at your environmentally considerate behavior that he was bravely 'throwing himself on the grenade' as it were - to protect you from the danger of another amber light jumper.

Evo

Nov3-09, 09:35 PM

Here you go.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limits_in_the_United_States#Minimum_speed_li mits

Moonbear

Nov3-09, 10:23 PM

NJ Turnpike? I don't recall seeing a posted minimum anywhere in NJ, but there are portions of the state I haven't been to yet. A few years back they increased the upper limit on I-295 from 55 to 65, but not on all portions of the highway. You need to keep your eyes open for the changes and that seems to me more dangerous than it needs to be. When they upped the limit, there was a stern warning from the governor that going even 1 mile over the new limit would result in a ticket. That never occured (except for that profiling thing) and it is rare to see anyone doing less than 70. Many do 75.

There's no posted minimum on the NJTpke. YEARS ago, I did know someone who was given a warning (not a ticket) for driving too slow when he was driving the speed limit. The norm was to drive 10 mph over, and him driving the speed limit was obstructing traffic.

Nowadays, when I head that way, it seems people stick pretty close to the posted 65 mph limit. Drives me bonkers...the speed limit out here is 70 mph and everyone drives 75-80, so I'm not used to driving so slow unless I'm sitting in traffic (then again, there's a lot of that in NJ too...still love the thrill ride of bumper-to-bumper traffic going 45 mph :bugeye:).

Though, with this thread in mind, I decided to pay more careful attention to how quickly my car slows down when I take my foot off the gas when I see a yellow or red light over the past two days on my drive to work and home. My conclusion is that leroyjenkens needs to check if his emergency brake is released when he's driving. :biggrin: Seriously, I was NEVER able to just coast to a light without braking, even when I took my foot off the gas as soon as I saw the light turn yellow. I never got down more than 5-10 mph under the speed limit before getting to a point where the brakes HAD to be applied to stop in time. (Edit: And I was playing fair...I started with driving the speed limit, not over...I only go faster on the interstates, not the local roads.) There was one exception. One light is at the top of a steep hill. On that one, I needed to step back on the gas again to get the rest of the way up the hill. Definitely no coasting there. So, if you're somehow managing to coast much under the limit, you're likely driving the people behind you crazy with them having to apply the brakes much longer and than they normally would need to do so.

The best rule of the road I can offer is...go with the flow.

JasonRox

Nov3-09, 10:28 PM

That's why I love public transportation.

TheStatutoryApe

Nov4-09, 12:38 AM

You can see when you're coming up on someone who is going slower than you. It's not like you can only recognize their speed when you get 10 inches from their bumper.
That's what I hate, people come speeding up behind me going over the speed limit, then slow down really quickly right before they smack into me. They saw my car there, but to me it looks like they tried to intimidate me into going faster, or to make me change lanes.
But that's the thing, some people will speed up behind you and right before they hit you, they change lanes. How do I know who is and who isn't going to do that? So if I change lanes for this guy speeding up behind me, he may change lanes too, thinking I'm gonna stay in that other lane.
I was responding to Turtle here in response to the argument that people going slower than the speed limit are not the ones causing problems. So if you are going the speed limit I would not suggest speeding up much in order to accommodate someone behind you. I have done it occasionally knowing that the person behind me was going to change lanes and needed me to move ahead so that [s]he could get around the car next to me. And no you should never change lanes to get out of the way of a speeding driver.
As for coming up on a slow moving vehicle it happens to me all the time. I don't get 10 inches from the bumper but often less than a car length which I am not very comfortable with. When I am driving 65-70 mph and suddenly see a car coming up I take my foot off the gas, usually with several car lengths between us. If I am still closing fast I will tap my brake. Quite often I find myself only a couple meters behind the car before I have matched speed and sometimes I find that THEY'RE SLOWING DOWN! so not only were they driving about 50mph in a 65 but as I am trying to match their speed they are coming down to about 45-40mph. Drives me freakin nuts. I sit there having to continually tap my brake to slow down more and more.

I hate tailgaters though. When someone tail gates me I brake check them or I take my foot off the gas and let my speed drop until they get pissed off and change lanes to go around me.

While the speed limit is the 'limit' your suppsoed to go on these roads you're actually supposed to go with the flow of traffic. Did you ever go through driving school? This is one of the most important things they teach you and it's always repeated again and again; do not disturb the flow of traffic.

Though the police may enforce the laws differently in different places this "drive with the flow of traffic" is a myth. I heard this all my life. Then I took my written test for my license and had this as a question. I answered "drive with the flow of traffic" and got it wrong. Technically, legally, the maximum speed limit is the maximum and you are not supposed to go over it regardless of the flow of traffic.

Of course here in Southern California most drivers go about 5-15 mph over the limit on the freeway and the police never pull them over. You have to be going about 85-90mph minimum to actually get pulled over.

DaveC426913

Nov4-09, 08:04 AM

I hate tailgaters though. When someone tail gates me I brake check them or I take my foot off the gas and let my speed drop until they get pissed off and change lanes to go around me.

I'm going to go ahead and speculate that you are in the passing lane when this happens.

You have no business cruising in the passing lane.

leroyjenkens

Nov4-09, 10:03 AM

There's a difference between what the public considers heroic and/or acceptable and what a company would consider acceptable. The company is concerned about how many dollars come in and how many dollars go out; not about fairness or heroism. The public likes heroes and couldn't care less whether Seven-Eleven makes a profit or loss this quarter.

And keep in the mind, the public that is supporting the store clerk's resistance is the same public that finds driving 5 mph over the speed limit and the first 3 cars running a red light as acceptable.
You're absolutely right, but you said it was wrong for the clerk to fight back, but that's only from the company's perspective (Certain companies. Others may applaud the employee for saving the cash.). Which perspective is the one that makes the act altogether wrong? The perspective of the company, or the perspective of everyone else? I don't think you can decide.
There's no posted minimum on the NJTpke. YEARS ago, I did know someone who was given a warning (not a ticket) for driving too slow when he was driving the speed limit. The norm was to drive 10 mph over, and him driving the speed limit was obstructing traffic.
I think that officer acted beyond his power. Maybe that's why he didn't give him a ticket; because he legally couldn't. If they don't want people going too slow, they need to put up a minimum speed limit sign. The burden is on them to fix the problem.
It makes no sense to have laws if you're going to have arbitrary exceptions that you don't know about until you get punished for it.
Though, with this thread in mind, I decided to pay more careful attention to how quickly my car slows down when I take my foot off the gas when I see a yellow or red light over the past two days on my drive to work and home. My conclusion is that leroyjenkens needs to check if his emergency brake is released when he's driving. Seriously, I was NEVER able to just coast to a light without braking, even when I took my foot off the gas as soon as I saw the light turn yellow. I never got down more than 5-10 mph under the speed limit before getting to a point where the brakes HAD to be applied to stop in time. (Edit: And I was playing fair...I started with driving the speed limit, not over...I only go faster on the interstates, not the local roads.) There was one exception. One light is at the top of a steep hill. On that one, I needed to step back on the gas again to get the rest of the way up the hill. Definitely no coasting there. So, if you're somehow managing to coast much under the limit, you're likely driving the people behind you crazy with them having to apply the brakes much longer and than they normally would need to do so.
Depends on how far away I see the light turn yellow. Usually I'll have to hit the brake when I get to the light. I just don't use extra gas to get to a stop light faster. It just isn't logical.
I'm going to go ahead and speculate that you are in the passing lane when this happens.

You have no business cruising in the passing lane.
It doesn't matter what lane you're in, someone will tailgate you. I'm sure most people don't even care what lane it is, all they know is they see a car going too slow and they're going to try to intimidate them to either move or go faster.

But really, what law forbids you to cruise in the "passing lane"? If you're going the speed limit, why are you expected to allow someone to go above the speed limit? How can you have a rule that accomodates the law breakers?
I "cruise" in the "passing lane" almost my entire ride home from work. I'll give the people behind me the maximum speed limit, maybe up to 5 MPH more, but that's all I owe them.
Honestly, if everyone just stuck to the right lane and only used the left lane to pass, there would be a huge line of cars in the right lane and no one would be able to merge onto the highway because you'd have a line of cars blocking them from getting in.

DaveC426913

Nov4-09, 11:14 AM

It doesn't matter what lane you're in, someone will tailgate you. I'm sure most people don't even care what lane it is, all they know is they see a car going too slow and they're going to try to intimidate them to either move or go faster.
Irrelevant. You are responsible for your own proper driving - what other drivers might do does not give you carte blanche to aggravate others. Especially since we're in a thread that is all about accusing others of bad driving habits.

But really, what law forbids you to cruise in the "passing lane"?
The one in your handbook that says "stay to the right unless passing".

If you're going the speed limit, why are you expected to allow someone to go above the speed limit? How can you have a rule that accomodates the law breakers?
Not your problem. You just obey the law and everything will work out.

I "cruise" in the "passing lane" almost my entire ride home from work. I'll give the people behind me the maximum speed limit, maybe up to 5 MPH more, but that's all I owe them.
No, you owe them the courtesy of driving properly yourself before calling the kettle black.

Honestly, if everyone just stuck to the right lane and only used the left lane to pass, there would be a huge line of cars in the right lane and no one would be able to merge onto the highway because you'd have a line of cars blocking them from getting in.
Again, not your problem. It is not for you to decide how to run the country's roads. There are people who get paid to do a lot more study of it than you.

Unless you are actually in the process of overtaking a vehicle on your right, you have no business in the left lane.

TheStatutoryApe

Nov4-09, 11:15 AM

I'm going to go ahead and speculate that you are in the passing lane when this happens.

You have no business cruising in the passing lane.

Here we have mostly major freeways with up to 5-6 lanes on each side. I've only driven on two (or four depending on how your counting) lane highways while on road trips and am quite willing to move aside for faster cars when I'm in the passing lane.

DaveC426913

Nov4-09, 11:21 AM

DaveC426913

Nov4-09, 11:24 AM

Here is the Provision in Ontario's HTA:

Any vehicle travelling upon a roadway at less than the normal speed of traffic at that time and place shall, where practicable, be driven in the right-hand lane then available for traffic or as close as practicable to the right hand curb or edge of the roadway.

Exception

(a) vehicle while overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction;
http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/french/elaws_statutes_90h08_f.htm#s147s1

I suppose I could look at each province & state, but let it be known here that, at least in one place, it is a law.

TheStatutoryApe

Nov4-09, 11:32 AM

No. You should not be in the passing lane unless you are overtaking.

I usually do. But I am usually driving faster than all of the rigs I am passing so I just stay in that lane until there is no one left to pass or someone comes on driving faster than I am.
If I were to ever drive eastward I would probably be more careful about driving over the limit but as I noted earlier you have to be going pretty damn fast in Cali to get pulled over.

BobG

Nov4-09, 11:36 AM

Here we have mostly major freeways with up to 5-6 lanes on each side. I've only driven on two (or four depending on how your counting) lane highways while on road trips and am quite willing to move aside for faster cars when I'm in the passing lane.

No. You should not be in the passing lane unless you are overtaking.

Or some reasonable facsimile. In heavy traffic between CSprings and Denver, you pretty much count on slow traffic in the right lane (maybe as slow as 50 to 60 mph with a 75 mph speed limit) and fast traffic in the left lane (80 to 85 mph). There's a lot of cars around 75 mph that spend a lot of time overtaking the slow guys, dropping in to the right lane themselves when there's a decent enough gap and allowing the faster traffic to get by before moving back into the left lane to overtake the next bunch of slow traffic.

Since the real speeds can be anywhere between 50 to 85, the amount of time spent in the right lane or the left lane will vary, but I can see what TSA means. A lot of times, doing exactly what Dave says winds up turning into brief stays in the right lane.

Assuming we're talking about somewhat short road trips on heavily trafficked sections of interstate - something I could see being fairly common on the East Coast or in California. Obviously, there's no reason to be spending much time cruising along in the left lane if you're driving near the Colorado-Nebraska border. There ain't nothing out there but tumbleweeds.

leroyjenkens

Nov4-09, 12:16 PM

Irrelevant. You are responsible for your own proper driving - what other drivers might do does not give you carte blanche to aggravate others. Especially since we're in a thread that is all about accusing others of bad driving habits.

It's not irrelevant. You said you speculate that he was in the passing lane because someone was tailgating him. I responded by saying people tailgate regardless of what lane you're in.
The one in your handbook that says "stay to the right unless passing".
Is that a law?
Not your problem. You just obey the law and everything will work out.
True, it's not my responsibility to enforce the law, but why do I have to change my way of driving for people who break the law, if I'm not breaking the law myself?
No, you owe them the courtesy of driving properly yourself before calling the kettle black.
Doesn't that work both ways?
Again, not your problem. It is not for you to decide how to run the country's roads. There are people who get paid to do a lot more study of it than you.

You're right. But these examples are reasons why I'm skeptical of what's actually a law and what isn't.
Unless you are actually in the process of overtaking a vehicle on your right, you have no business in the left lane.
I have no business in the left lane, meaning I should be nice and get over? Or I have no business in the left lane, meaning I'm breaking the law? There's a difference.
By law, I don't have to get over when a semi is trying to merge. He's the one who's supposed to yield. But I do anyway. Mostly out of courtesy, but partly because I don't trust that semi driver to not kill me.
I suppose I could look at each province & state, but let it be known here that, at least in one place, it is a law.
That doesn't disallow cruising in the left lane. And what defines normal speed of traffic? I could say the speed limit defines it. It didn't specify. Just because one nutcase wants to go mach 1, doesn't mean by law I have to get over and let him. At least not by the one you quoted.

jimmysnyder

Nov4-09, 12:25 PM

I'm going to go ahead and speculate that you are in the passing lane when this happens.

You have no business cruising in the passing lane.
I hate tailgaters too and you can speculate all you want as to the reason. In my mind I am splattering mud on the windshield to blind the idiot, or perhaps doing a Crazy Ivan. In actuality, I just slow down and hope they get the message which they never do. The wierd part is wondering what goes on in their mind. On the one hand, they must think I'm an awful driver. If so, then they are right. But they are tailgating a terrible driver. What does that make them?

BobG

Nov4-09, 12:39 PM

I hate tailgaters too and you can speculate all you want as to the reason. In my mind I am splattering mud on the windshield to blind the idiot, or perhaps doing a Crazy Ivan. In actuality, I just slow down and hope they get the message which they never do. The wierd part is wondering what goes on in their mind. On the one hand, they must think I'm an awful driver. If so, then they are right. But they are tailgating a terrible driver. What does that make them?

I hate tailgating. One of the most frustrating experiences is following a safe distance behind in the left lane when someone from the right lane moves ahead of me. Now I have to slow down just a bit until I have a safe distance behind him and a second car cuts in, etc. Eventually, everyone in the left lane is cussing me out as they pass me on the right.

There's times when you have to tailgate or poke along very slowly in the right lane. The fact that you're tailgating a driver you know nothing about is a very pertinent fact. It's definitely something to consider when deciding how long that tailgating chain should be. It drives me nuts when my daughter is driving in a tailgating chain 7 or 8 cars long. You just don't know who's in that chain. My limit is about 3 or 4 before I start thinking it's better to slow down and look for a better group to tailgate with.

TheStatutoryApe

Nov4-09, 01:01 PM

True, it's not my responsibility to enforce the law, but why do I have to change my way of driving for people who break the law, if I'm not breaking the law myself?
A friend of mine always loved to drive like a maniac. I would constantly tell him to be more careful and he would tell me that he was a good driver and as a friend I should trust him. I always told him that it did not matter how well he could drive it was the other idiots on the road that were the real worry. And that's the issue right there. No matter how well you drive, even if you don't try to drive like Mario Andretti like my friend, its the other people on the road that are most likely going to get you into an accident. So you need to be careful of them and give them a wide berth if you want to stay out of an accident. It is primarily your own responsibility to stay safe on the road. You should never have to do anything illegal or dangerous but what ever is reasonably within your power to stay safe on the road including 'catering to' or accommodating dangerous drivers.

Similarly, its not right for someone to rob you while you're walking down the street but if you're wearing Armani and a Rolex with a wad of cash in your pocket while taking a stroll in Compton you're pretty stupid.

It drives me nuts when my daughter is driving in a tailgating chain 7 or 8 cars long.
Both my mother and sister love to tail gate. It drives me nuts too. I don't even care how many people are in the "chain" it just makes me uncomfortable.

BobG

Nov4-09, 01:26 PM

as a friend I should trust him.

What?! What does that have to do with anything?!

It amazes me how many people think this is actually a valid reason to believe they have some special super power. "I can leap that gorge in my Yugo! As a friend you should believe me!" "Seriously, I can pull that tooth out for you! As a friend, you should believe me!" (I might believe him if he pulls one of his teeth out first. Or I might seriously become frightened at who I'm selecting for friends.)

TheStatutoryApe

Nov4-09, 01:36 PM

What?! What does that have to do with anything?!
Tell me about it. He was a manipulative SoB. I think it was one of the reasons he liked having me as a friend; I wouldn't go in for his BS and he had trouble respecting anyone who did.

DaveC426913

Nov4-09, 02:09 PM

Is that a law?
Yes.

True, it's not my responsibility to enforce the law, but why do I have to change my way of driving for people who break the law, if I'm not breaking the law myself?

You are.

At the very least, you need to lose the self-righteous "I won't change because other people are breaking the law" attitude.

That doesn't disallow cruising in the left lane. And what defines normal speed of traffic? I could say the speed limit defines it. It didn't specify.
Yes it did. If the speed limit were the defining factor, it would say "the speed limit". What it says is: the normal speed of traffic at that time in that place.

OK, fair enough, if there are only two cars including yourself on the entire road, then it is ambiguous what the normal speed is. But if there are multiple cars, then you have no business blocking them.

leroyjenkens

Nov4-09, 04:25 PM

Both my mother and sister love to tail gate. It drives me nuts too. I don't even care how many people are in the "chain" it just makes me uncomfortable.
I don't know why anyone would want to drive like that. It means you have to put 100% effort in making sure you don't rearend this guy. You can't look away because you're 2 inches from smacking into him, and when you look away for half a second, that's when the guy suddenly puts on the brakes for whatever reason and bam.
You ever see a car so close behind another that you think the one in front is towing the other one?
Yes.
I haven't seen a law yet that says so.
At the very least, you need to lose the self-righteous "I won't change because other people are breaking the law" attitude.
I see nothing wrong with that attitude. Explain why I should lose it.
Yes it did. If the speed limit were the defining factor, it would say "the speed limit". What it says is: the normal speed of traffic at that time in that place.

Normal speed is what? The average speed of every car on the road? The speed of the fastest car on the road?
OK, fair enough, if there are only two cars including yourself on the entire road, then it is ambiguous what the normal speed is. But if there are multiple cars, then you have no business blocking them.

Again, it doesn't say "no blocking". It just says if you're going below the normal speed (whatever that means), then you should stay on the right. I take that as minimum on right, maximum on left.

According to what you quoted, as long as I'm going the "normal speed", I can stay in the left lane, regardless of who I'm blocking.

DaveC426913

Nov4-09, 05:01 PM

I haven't seen a law yet that says so.

I see nothing wrong with that attitude. Explain why I should lose it.

OK, so you're refuting that the law I posted applies to you?

Normal speed is what? The average speed of every car on the road? The speed of the fastest car on the road?
You are being obtuse; you are "lawyering". You are deliberately trying to misinterpret the law so as to pretend it doesn't apply to you. You are not accepting the spirit of the law.

That's fine. But you lose the "why should I have to" privilege and you just become one more person on the road who is completely selfish and disruptive to other drivers, i.e. one of the very people you complain about. You are no better than a speeder.

In fact, you are worse; no speeder in his right mind would try to defend his self-serving actions as righteous.

Again, it doesn't say "no blocking". It just says if you're going below the normal speed (whatever that means), then you should stay on the right. I take that as minimum on right, maximum on left.
Correct. So you do understand.

leroyjenkens

Nov4-09, 05:29 PM

You are being obtuse; you are "lawyering". You are deliberately trying to misinterpret the law so as to pretend it doesn't apply to you. You are not accepting the spirit of the law.
No I'm not. How is asking for a clearer definition deliberately trying to misinterpret?
Do you know what "normal speed" is exactly defined as? And why is your interpretation of it more valid than mine?
In fact, you are worse; no speeder in his right mind would try to defend his self-serving actions as righteous.

And I could argue that no one in their right mind speeds.
Correct. So you do understand.
We're going in circles. The understanding that you just said was correct is contrary to what you've been saying this whole time.

fuzzyfelt

Nov4-09, 05:29 PM

Are there no 'keep left unless overtaking' signs (or right in this instance) in the US?

DaveC426913

Nov4-09, 05:37 PM

No I'm not. How is asking for a clearer definition deliberately trying to misinterpret?
Feel free to ask the government for a clearer definition; they wrote the law. Because you find it unclear does not mean you get to ignore it.

And I could argue that no one in their right mind speeds.
Regardless, they are not being hypocritical. By your doing so (preaching one thing and practicing another) you are arguing in bad faith. And that erodes your credibility.

lisab

Nov4-09, 05:38 PM

Are there no 'keep left unless overtaking' signs (or right in this instance) in the US?

There are, but they're very rare. Usually, you see them up steep grades (and the usual wording is "Slower Traffic Keep Right").

One big difference between US and European driving: in the US it's common practice to pass on the right or left, whichever suits your fancy at the time.

I don't remember seeing that in any of the European countries I've visited.

turbo-1

Nov4-09, 05:45 PM

Are there no 'keep left unless overtaking' signs (or right in this instance) in the US?The entire Maine turnpike and I-95 and its feeders are all signed "keep right unless passing", and yes, people do get ticketed for staying in the left lane. It's an attempt to keep traffic flow unobstructed.

fuzzyfelt

Nov4-09, 05:47 PM

fuzzyfelt

Nov4-09, 05:53 PM

The entire Maine turnpike and I-95 and its feeders are all signed "keep right unless passing", and yes, people do get ticketed for staying in the left lane. It's an attempt to keep traffic flow unobstructed.

Good to know. I guess it is hard to enforce when there is heavy traffic in both or all lanes, but otherwise helpful.

BobG

Nov4-09, 06:03 PM

There are, but they're very rare. Usually, you see them up steep grades (and the usual wording is "Slower Traffic Keep Right").

One big difference between US and European driving: in the US it's common practice to pass on the right or left, whichever suits your fancy at the time.

I don't remember seeing that in any of the European countries I've visited.

If you're talking just about freeways, you're not supposed to pass on the right. That would be a silly thing to do in any event since everyone knows the slower traffic will be in the right lanes anyway. :rofl:

Actually, the main deviation from slow in the right and fast in the left comes with six lane highways. Through traffic likes the middle with the right lane used for traffic about to exit or having just entered. A particularly slow driver in the middle lane is like a rock in the river and people go both right and left to avoid the slow driver. Once by the obstruction, traffic usually seems to run the way you'd expect, with passing occurring only on the left.

jimmysnyder

Nov4-09, 06:31 PM

Friday evening the NJTP between exits 6 and 8A is a parking lot. I'd like to see the cops hand out tickets to all the people doing under 5mph. As for left and right, I always thought it was a waste here in the US that we only drive on the right hand side of the road thus underutilizing our highways by 50%. As I understand it, the British are more efficient as they do use the left hand side of the road.

leroyjenkens

Nov4-09, 07:08 PM

Feel free to ask the government for a clearer definition; they wrote the law. Because you find it unclear does not mean you get to ignore it.
I don't. It's unclear, so I interpreted it.
Regardless, they are not being hypocritical. By your doing so (preaching one thing and practicing another) you are arguing in bad faith. And that erodes your credibility.
What do I preach that I don't practice?

DaveC426913

Nov4-09, 08:23 PM

OmCheeto

Nov4-09, 09:17 PM

I don't. It's unclear, so I interpreted it.

What do I preach that I don't practice?You complain that others are breaking the law, now you are turning around and deliberately misinterpreting a law for your own benefit so as to pretend you are not breaking it.

You two are going to make me crazy.
Why don't you both get a gps, log your trips to work, upload them here (http://chargecar.org/participate), then the P.forum members can look how you both drive and make a poll of who should have their license revoked for being a silly driver.

And they let us download other drivers data (http://chargecar.org/data), so we can see who was doing 81 mph (http://chargecar.org/data/291) on the interstate! Woo Hoo! Law breaking rebel!

I'll betcha 5 dollars it was Tsu.

Sorry!

Nov4-09, 09:42 PM

You two are going to make me crazy.
Why don't you both get a gps, log your trips to work, upload them here (http://chargecar.org/participate), then the P.forum members can look how you both drive and make a poll of who should have their license revoked for being a silly driver.

And they let us download other drivers data (http://chargecar.org/data), so we can see who was doing 81 mph (http://chargecar.org/data/291) on the interstate! Woo Hoo! Law breaking rebel!

I'll betcha 5 dollars it was Tsu.

81.31 through Oregon. Thats like 130 km/h... not that bad lol I remember coming home one time from a trip to New Brunswick with my cousin and I looked down at the spedometer and he was going 180. Never gone that fast before...

TurtleMeister

Nov4-09, 10:10 PM

I remember coming home one time from a trip to New Brunswick with my cousin and I looked down at the spedometer and he was going 180.
New Brunswick New Jersey? :lol What road was that? It would take a really nice highway to allow someone to drive that fast and live to tell about it.

Sorry!

Nov4-09, 10:15 PM

New Brunswick New Jersey? :lol What road was that? It would take a really nice highway to allow someone to drive that fast and live to tell about it.

Noooo new brunswick in Canada. haha I was talking about a trip I took wasn't referencing anything else anyone else wrote... As well it was on the TransCanada highway just before montreal.

TurtleMeister

Nov4-09, 10:52 PM

Noooo new brunswick in Canada. haha I was talking about a trip I took wasn't referencing anything else anyone else wrote... As well it was on the TransCanada highway just before montreal.
I'm not familiar with TransCanada highway, but it must be a nice one if you can go that fast. Like the autobahn maybe? You'd be hard pressed to find a highway on east coast US like that. I remember one time (when I was younger) going 130 and it really spooked me. It only takes very minor dips and rises in the road to make the car unstable at those speeds.

Sorry!

Nov4-09, 11:24 PM

I'm not familiar with TransCanada highway, but it must be a nice one if you can go that fast. Like the autobahn maybe? You'd be hard pressed to find a highway on east coast US like that. I remember one time (when I was younger) going 130 and it really spooked me. It only takes very minor dips and rises in the road to make the car unstable at those speeds.

130 km/h is an average speed on the highways around here. 180 km/h is only about 110 mph. (If you're talking in mph I don't really know. lol) It was pretty smooth going though

TurtleMeister

Nov4-09, 11:55 PM

lol not only am I in the wrong country, I'm in the wrong uints. But even 110mph around here would be a gamble with your life.

xxChrisxx

Nov5-09, 09:27 AM

mgb_phys

Nov5-09, 10:12 AM

The transCanada varies a lot, it's a bit like route 66 - the number is used on a bunch of local roads - it isn't a single freeway, and a lot of it isn't even freeway. Generally speed limits in Canada are lower, most freeways are 80-100km/h (50-60mph)

The UK's speed limit on a divided highway is 70mph (110km/h) and overtaking on the inside is illegal as it is in all european countries (I have driven in).
France's speed limits on freeways are 130km/h (80mph) dry and 110km/h (65mph) wet.

Germany has unlimited speeds on a few freeways. There's a funny bit in "Gone in 60 seconds" where the car thief's American car has Nitrox boosters and reaches speeds of 110mph - and the cop in a series7 BMW can't catch him! in Germany the taxis drive to the airport faster than this.

leroyjenkens

Nov5-09, 11:11 AM

You complain that others are breaking the law, now you are turning around and deliberately misinterpreting a law for your own benefit so as to pretend you are not breaking it.
I tried to break it down to understand it's meaning, but you didn't want to help me out, so I had to interpret it myself. So long as I'm going at least the normal speed of traffic, I can stay in the left lane. Well that's what I do. If someone who is going faster than the normal speed of traffic wants to pass me, well that's just too bad.
I tried to ask what the normal speed of traffic was, but you didn't want to help me out, so I decided that it's the average speed of all the cars on the road, up to the maximum speed limit. If they're going above the maximum speed limit, then the normal speed of traffic is the speed limit. There's no reason to believe the speed limit law is superseded in this instance. I believe the law you quoted is put in place with the assumption that people aren't going over the speed limit.
Since when are you allowed to break the law depending on whether or not everyone else is at the time?

DaveC426913

Nov5-09, 11:45 AM

If someone who is going faster than the normal speed of traffic wants to pass me, well that's just too bad.Why?

I mean, why be a jerk?

Is that what Jesus would do? :wink:

Part of one's character is what one does regardless of provocation.

Are you a cusser? If we got into an argument and I started cussing at you, could
I provoke you into responding in kind? If on the road, could I get you to flip me the bird?

One thing I've tried to drill into my kids is that, as long as they define their own behaviour by someone else's actions, then they have simply not defined themselves yet.

sportsstar469

Nov5-09, 11:50 AM

If I'm coming up on a light that just turned red, I take my foot off the gas and just coast up to it. For no apparent reason, this drives people behind me crazy. Just today I had some guy speed up around me a thousand MPH and cut in front of my really fast as if to say "take that for going slow", just so he can come to a quick stop 20 yards later. And then he just stared at me through his side mirror, I guess waiting for me to give him a look or something so he can get out with his gun and shoot me or whatever it is crazy people do nowadays.
Anyway, this is just something that I won't relent on. I refuse to waste my gas, speeding up to a red light or a train crossing when a train is coming just to appease the lunatics behind me.
I love it when someone speeds up in the other lane, stops at a light 50 yards ahead and then I coast up and pass him just as it turns green. I didn't waste my gas or my break pads and I'm now ahead of him again.
But of course I'm smart enough to realize that not everyone can drive like that, since we'd have roads backed up with people coasting up to red lights. So I guess we need the stupid people to keep the roads clear. The people who speed up to a train stop just so they can slam on the breaks as if they thought the mile long train would just vanish by the time they reached the crossing.
It's not their fault they're stupid and can't put 2 and 2 together, but they don't have to be crazy about it.
YEAH I do t he same thing. another reason i coast is because i hope that by the time i reach the light it wil turn green again. i also hate the people who move forward 2 inches every 15 seconds. lol

when i drive home from school at 10pm, i drive along this highway that has one lane for each direction your going (people going south are on side with people going north right next to them in the next lane) i always go the speed limit, but i regularly have p[eople who go right into the oppposing traffic lane to pass me and get to the red light faster. the lines seperating the lanes are double yellow!

xxChrisxx

Nov5-09, 11:54 AM

Why on earth would you cruise in an overtaking lane when not overtaking anyway? There is no logical reason for it, apart from being deliberately awkward. Just pull over one lane, you are still going the speed you want to go, but are allowing others the opportunity to pass you.

Your 'sucks to be you' attitude towards other road users is probably the worst attidude you can have. It shows a lack of respect towards other road users. Deliberately and KNOWINGLY sitting in an overtaking lane (where people are inevitably going over the speed limit) going slower than the traffic in that lane, is as obnoxious as the white van man (dont know if you have them over in the US) sitting right up your arse.

On a positive note i'm with you on the coasting red light thing though. There is absolutely nothing wrong with slowing down in a light is on red in the distance. You dont gain or lose time, and you are driving in a more economic fasion.

mgb_phys

Nov5-09, 01:05 PM

Why on earth would you cruise in an overtaking lane when not overtaking anyway?
It's a little different in the US, you can overtake on the inside(right) so there is no rule to move into the right lane after overtaking. There are rules (or at least recommendations) not to make unnecessary lane changes.
Also the right most lane generally goes off at each junction and rejoins as the on-ramp, so you need to keep out of it (US road signage is a mess) and generally you want to keep out of the lane immediately to the left of it aswell in heavy traffic.

jimmysnyder

Nov5-09, 01:27 PM

On my way to work is I-295 which has three lanes in each direction. Once I get on the highway and up to speed, I turn on the cruise control. I don't like to turn it off if I don't have to. I get in the middle lane and cruise to work. Apparently, no one else uses cruise control. The right lane is not suitable for cruise control because there are cars getting on and off. The left lane is not suitable for me because I am not speeding and I prefer to stay out of the speeders' lane. When traffic builds up and slows down in the middle lane, I do move over to the left lane in order to pass. That's when the guy who had been ahead of me realizes that I am passing him and he speeds up. Now I am stranded in the left lane. I can't legally speed up to pass the guy and I can't slow down unless I get out of cruise control. So I just ride the left lane neck and neck with the newly awakened driver to my right who is edging ahead of me. I won't get back in the middle lane until I can do so without tailgating him. Now the driver behind me moves into the middle lane meaning that I can't get back in the middle lane until both cars clear me. More and more cars move out of the left lane into the middle lane which has now become the fast lane and I am trapped for hours and hours. Meaning a few minutes, it just feels like hours. It doesn't really matter, but it makes me nervous to be passed on the right.

xxChrisxx

Nov5-09, 01:57 PM

It's a little different in the US, you can overtake on the inside(right) so there is no rule to move into the right lane after overtaking. There are rules (or at least recommendations) not to make unnecessary lane changes.
Also the right most lane generally goes off at each junction and rejoins as the on-ramp, so you need to keep out of it (US road signage is a mess) and generally you want to keep out of the lane immediately to the left of it aswell in heavy traffic.

I see, well that makes a bit more sense then as by sitting on the outside lane you aren't blocking everything up. Sounds like a bloody complicated way of doing it though. I can see you having to be much more alert if you've got cars overtaking both ways. Like the example above.

lisab

Nov5-09, 02:07 PM

I see, well that makes a bit more sense then as by sitting on the outside lane you aren't blocking everything up. Sounds like a bloody complicated way of doing it though. I can see you having to be much more alert if you've got cars overtaking both ways. Like the example above.

I don't think passing on either side is inherently more dangerous than only passing on the left (or right, for UK-style systems), *as long as it's customary*. One key to safe driving is to not do things that other drivers on the road aren't expecting.

I learned to drive in a "pass in any lane" place, so I'm well used to it, and know to scan all mirrors every few seconds when I'm on a multi-lane road (and always check blind spots on both sides when changing lanes).

I can imagine for a driver not used to it, it would seem hazardous.

TurtleMeister

Nov5-09, 02:22 PM

mgb_phys

Nov5-09, 02:37 PM

I can see you having to be much more alert if you've got cars overtaking both ways.
Yes, but at least you expect it and it means the little old lady doing 50 in the middle lane doesn't block the entire motorway.

The main danger is people randomly changing lanes in traffic to get 1 car ahead or swooping across 4 lanes to get to an exit. If only they had indicators it would help.

BobG

Nov5-09, 03:31 PM

edward

Nov5-09, 09:16 PM

That's okay. Americans learn just about every aspect of driving.

For example: How to Vomit While Driving (http://www.wikihow.com/Vomit-While-Driving)

WHAT!! no video :yuck:

sportsstar469

Nov5-09, 11:27 PM

xxChrisxx

Nov5-09, 11:31 PM

idk if youre replying to me, but if so, how is going speed limit deliberately pissing anybody off?

on the topic of driving, mny dad was driving on a highway, and a deer jumped in front of his car causing the hood to fly off, and he almost died. I HATE DEERS. my dad just put a new 2000 engine in the car too...

was responding to leroy.

DaveC426913

Nov5-09, 11:31 PM

OmCheeto

Nov6-09, 12:52 AM

Where the hell is Leroy. I'm tellin' ya, this new 'lectric web space drivin' thing is cool:

With this(OmCheeto's) car, this trip will cost: $0.96
With an electric car, this trip will cost: $0.16
By using an electric car, you save: $0.80, a savings of 83%!

And they only showed me breaking the law about 4 times (http://chargecar.org/data/do_graph?meta_data_id=333&data_type=gps_datas&graph_type=speed_over_time&file_name[name]=calculations-1.txt).

"But please occifer, I was passin' some'un'. 'ats why I was goin' so fast"

:biggrin:

IMHO, there are people who will, and those who will not, fit into the new EV mode of driving.

As PC also said; "If going without is not an option, go efficient"

TheStatutoryApe

Nov6-09, 03:10 AM

That's okay. Americans learn just about every aspect of driving.

For example: How to Vomit While Driving (http://www.wikihow.com/Vomit-While-Driving)

That happened to me once. I was at a point where there was a bend in the street and nearly side swiped someone as I vomited all over my passenger seat. No accident fortunately.

leroyjenkens

Nov6-09, 10:26 AM

Why?

I mean, why be a jerk?

Is that what Jesus would do?

Part of one's character is what one does regardless of provocation.
I try to be as nice as possible when I drive. In every other situation, I give people lots of room to merge, I don't get right up on them when they're going slow. But when I'm going 5 MPH over the speed limit and that's too slow for the people behind me, that's too bad. If they want to break the law by more than 5 MPH, then they're not going to make me an accomplice.
Are you a cusser? If we got into an argument and I started cussing at you, could
I provoke you into responding in kind? If on the road, could I get you to flip me the bird?
I'm a very calm debater. If you started getting belligerent, I'd most likely just end the conversation.
Why on earth would you cruise in an overtaking lane when not overtaking anyway? There is no logical reason for it, apart from being deliberately awkward.
Because I want to go at least the speed limit. The right lane is where the people drive who don't want to go the maximum. I don't want to get stuck behind someone going the minimum. Plus it's annoying having to slow down or change lanes for non-yielders who are merging. They'd rather risk a fiery inferno than to slow down until there's an opening.
Your 'sucks to be you' attitude towards other road users is probably the worst attidude you can have. It shows a lack of respect towards other road users. Deliberately and KNOWINGLY sitting in an overtaking lane (where people are inevitably going over the speed limit) going slower than the traffic in that lane, is as obnoxious as the white van man (dont know if you have them over in the US) sitting right up your arse.

It doesn't suck to be you when I save you a speeding ticket.
That's not my attitude. I'll give them the speed limit, but I won't be an accomplice by facilitating their law breaking.
because I am not speeding and I prefer to stay out of the speeders' lane.
This is what people actually believe. That's the "fast lane". Wait a minute. Since when have we given people special lanes to speed in? That's like giving thieves special stores that they can steal from. Or giving murderers special people that they're allowed to kill.
I see, well that makes a bit more sense then as by sitting on the outside lane you aren't blocking everything up. Sounds like a bloody complicated way of doing it though. I can see you having to be much more alert if you've got cars overtaking both ways. Like the example above.
I don't see the point of clogging up the right lane for people who want to merge JUST so we can have a nice clear lane for the speeding law breakers.
I frequently drive I-95 along the east coast (including I-295) and what you describe is very common for me also.
On my way to work I drive down I-95 and get on I-295. What happened to the rest of them? 95 then to 295? There's 200 missing.

DaveC426913

Nov6-09, 10:39 AM

Since when have we given people special lanes to speed in?

It is not a speeding lane. It is a passing lane. And we have people people special lanes to pass in.

Look, there's nothing wrong with merely doing 5mph over the limit when you're passing other cars. Yes, even if there are cars piled up behind you. (i.e. You are not obliged to speed just because you are in the passing lane.)

Just pull into the right lane when you're done passing. Not because of speed. Because you're done passing.

Sorry!

Nov6-09, 10:50 AM

It is not a speeding lane. It is a passing lane. And we have people people special lanes to pass in.

Look, there's nothing wrong with merely doing 5mph over the limit when you're passing other cars. Yes, even if there are cars piled up behind you. (i.e. You are not obliged to speed just because you are in the passing lane.)

Just pull into the right lane when you're done passing. Not because of speed. Because you're done passing.

Hey dave did you hear about that older lady who was doing 50 over passing a truck on the highway and is fighting her charges haha. She says the laws don't apply to her because she isn't stunt racing. (That new 50 over law that came out awhile ago.) I'm not sure of the outcome of the case but I thought it was pretty funny haha.

DaveC426913

Nov6-09, 10:53 AM

Hey dave did you hear about that older lady who was doing 50 over passing a truck on the highway and is fighting her charges haha. She says the laws don't apply to her because she isn't stunt racing. (That new 50 over law that came out awhile ago.) I'm not sure of the outcome of the case but I thought it was pretty funny haha.
Yeah, I remember that.

Not sure which way that should fall, really.

While the law is aimed at combating stunt-racing, it is not "the stunt-racing law". 50 over is 50 over.

xxChrisxx

Nov6-09, 10:58 AM

I try to be as nice as possible when I drive. In every other situation, I give people lots of room to merge, I don't get right up on them when they're going slow. But when I'm going 5 MPH over the speed limit and that's too slow for the people behind me, that's too bad. If they want to break the law by more than 5 MPH, then they're not going to make me an accomplice.

Yet you dont mind breaking the law by going 5 over which is still breaking the law isnt it? Or braking the accepted guidelines (I don't know if it law in the US) that the lane is for OVERTAKING.

So basically it can't be that you want to uphold the law by stopping people speeding as you are doing it yourself.

It doesn't suck to be you when I save you a speeding ticket.
That's not my attitude. I'll give them the speed limit, but I won't be an accomplice by facilitating their law breaking.

Do you realise how much of a pompous arse you sound. Save me a speeding ticket. How noble and just of you. And you saved me a speeding ticket by ONLY breaking the law yourself by 5mph. Well done, you should get a community medal.

You do realise that you moving out of an overtaking lane ISNT being an accomplice. You acutally can't be an accomplice to a speeding charge, you aren't assisting them in any way. Doing nothing to stop them is NOT the same as actively helping them.

I'd rather you stuck to the rules of the road and got out of an overtaking lane when you are done overtaking.

You really do sound like a hypocrite and a jerk behind the wheel. Not to mention a moaner.

jimmysnyder

Nov6-09, 11:20 AM

On my way to work I drive down I-95 and get on I-295. What happened to the rest of them? 95 then to 295? There's 200 missing.
If you've ever experienced the merge between R-30 and I-295, you know how complex the highway number system can get.

xxChrisxx

Nov6-09, 07:45 PM

On my way to work I drive down I-95 and get on I-295. What happened to the rest of them? 95 then to 295? There's 200 missing.

Is this a serious question, or was it like a jocular rhetorical question?

mgb_phys

Nov6-09, 07:49 PM

It's almost logical (at least as close as federal, government and logical get)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_Highway_System#Numbering_system

turbo-1

Nov6-09, 07:52 PM

Is this a serious question, or was it like a jocular rhetorical question?Song: 95 is the route you are on. It's not the speed limit sign.

rootX

Nov7-09, 01:44 AM

I am really interested in knowing how this woman would drive on the road.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8347164.stm

leroyjenkens

Nov7-09, 11:17 AM

Look, there's nothing wrong with merely doing 5mph over the limit when you're passing other cars. Yes, even if there are cars piled up behind you. (i.e. You are not obliged to speed just because you are in the passing lane.)
If I'm going the speed limit in the passing lane, why do I need to get back over? For people going faster than the speed limit?

And how do you know there's nothing wrong with going 5 over if you want to pass?
What about 10 over? When is the line drawn? Because the speed limit is at a certain set number, so if you're going to have allowances above it, they need to be defined by the law, not by conjecture.
Yet you dont mind breaking the law by going 5 over which is still breaking the law isnt it? Or braking the accepted guidelines (I don't know if it law in the US) that the lane is for OVERTAKING.
I'll go 5 over. That's a small amount. You couldn't even recognize I was speeding unless you have a radar gun.
So basically it can't be that you want to uphold the law by stopping people speeding as you are doing it yourself.

There's a difference between 5 MPH over and 20 MPH over. Hence why there's different fines for different speeds.
But I'm not trying to uphold the law. That's not my job. I just don't feel it necessary to go out of my way to allow people to go any faster than I'm going, which is probably over the limit already.
And I don't expect people to do the same for me. If I'm going 60 in a 55 and I come up on someone going 55 in the left lane, I slow down and don't get on their butt expecting them to accomodate me. They only owe me the limit, no more.
Do you realise how much of a pompous arse you sound. Save me a speeding ticket. How noble and just of you. And you saved me a speeding ticket by ONLY breaking the law yourself by 5mph.
I go 5 over maximum in the left lane. That's so I don't go below the maximum, since I'm in the left lane and that's what they're entitled to.
Going 5 over isn't the same as going 200 over, despite you wanting it to be so it supports your argument.
You do realise that you moving out of an overtaking lane ISNT being an accomplice. You acutally can't be an accomplice to a speeding charge, you aren't assisting them in any way. Doing nothing to stop them is NOT the same as actively helping them.

Moving out of their way IS actively helping them. Moving is an action and the result is them being able to break the law. Me not moving, which is what I do, is not assisting them in any way.
I'd rather you stuck to the rules of the road and got out of an overtaking lane when you are done overtaking.
Show me the rule I'm breaking. I've yet to see it.
You really do sound like a hypocrite and a jerk behind the wheel. Not to mention a moaner.
I sound like all that from breaking non-existant laws? Ignore every other nice thing I do on the road. Those acts are all negated simply by me not moving. I love how it's always one extreme or the other. You're either the best, nicest driver, or you're the worst driver and a huge hypocritical, moaning, jerk who eats babies.
Is this a serious question, or was it like a jocular rhetorical question?
A serious question asked in a jocular way. I honestly don't know the answer, but it's a question I can ask in a funny way because other people may feel the same way.

xxChrisxx

Nov7-09, 11:51 AM

I'll go 5 over. That's a small amount. You couldn't even recognize I was speeding unless you have a radar gun.

There's a difference between 5 MPH over and 20 MPH over. Hence why there's different fines for different speeds.

The law is black and white and the limit is technically a hard limit. 5mph over or 20mph doesn't matter, speeding is speeding. The fact that the speed over the limit determines the level of punishment makes no odds, even 1mph over is still breaking the law.

In the end it really does't matter, as you should drive how you feel comfortable driving and not let anyone bully you into doing something you don't want.

It may or may not be illegal but I believe it's courteous not to block a passing lane when you could easily drive in the centre lanes. Obviously if the centre lane is all blocked up and there is no opportunity to merge back in, then fair enough.

The reason I would be more annoyed about this is that in the UK you can't undertake. So if you've got someone going in the overtaking lane at 70mph they effectively block the motorway even if there are no cars in the centre lane (as although the technical speed limit is 70 everyone goes 80+ when not in the left (slow) lane). Technically not against the law but from a practical point of view its irritating.

A serious question asked in a jocular way. I honestly don't know the answer, but it's a question I can ask in a funny way because other people may feel the same way.

The acutal numbering convention has been posted earlier I think.

It's similar to the system used in the UK. Here we have the main motorways M1, M2, M3 that correspond to areas of the country.

The main motorway near me is the M6 that runs down the west of the country. Motorways that branch off this are then given a designation of M6x.

In the US I think they put the split off before the main interstate. So I-x95 would be a branch off the main I-95.

leroyjenkens

Nov8-09, 09:04 AM

The law is black and white and the limit is technically a hard limit. 5mph over or 20mph doesn't matter, speeding is speeding. The fact that the speed over the limit determines the level of punishment makes no odds, even 1mph over is still breaking the law.
So 1 MPH is the same as 100 MPH. As far as breaking the law, yeah. But if you go down a small hill while going the limit, you won't gain 100 extra MPH. I know 1 MPH over is still breaking the law. I'll go up to 5 MPH over. The fact that I'm breaking the law also is of no relevance, since I'm not chiding other people for breaking the law (The only people I hate are the ones who drive recklessly, risking other people's lives.) It's just my point of view that it's not my responsibility to allow people to speed by getting out of their way. If they want to speed, they need to find their own opening.
I said it before, but if I wanted to go 5 over and I was stuck behind someone in the left lane who is only going the speed limit, then that's too bad for me and I won't hold it against that person if they stay in the left lane. I'll just either have to find my own opening or I'll just have to suffer the excruciating agony of having to go 5 MPH slower.
The reason I would be more annoyed about this is that in the UK you can't undertake. So if you've got someone going in the overtaking lane at 70mph they effectively block the motorway even if there are no cars in the centre lane (as although the technical speed limit is 70 everyone goes 80+ when not in the left (slow) lane).
So in the UK you can't get in that empty lane and pass him? That's ridiculous. How could you even enforce that? So all the traffic on the road is forced to go as slow as the slowest car in the overtaking lane, simply because "undertaking" him is illegal?

xxChrisxx

Nov8-09, 09:58 AM

So 1 MPH is the same as 100 MPH. As far as breaking the law, yeah. But if you go down a small hill while going the limit, you won't gain 100 extra MPH. I know 1 MPH over is still breaking the law. I'll go up to 5 MPH over. The fact that I'm breaking the law also is of no relevance, since I'm not chiding other people for breaking the law (The only people I hate are the ones who drive recklessly, risking other people's lives.) It's just my point of view that it's not my responsibility to allow people to speed by getting out of their way. If they want to speed, they need to find their own opening.
I said it before, but if I wanted to go 5 over and I was stuck behind someone in the left lane who is only going the speed limit, then that's too bad for me and I won't hold it against that person if they stay in the left lane. I'll just either have to find my own opening or I'll just have to suffer the excruciating agony of having to go 5 MPH slower.

It's encouraing agressive driving though. Somone who wants to fly down the motorway will find a way to do it. By leaving a 'fast' lane blocked up they then have to weave through traffic in slower lanes to get back into a faster lane. 'they need to find their own opening'.

The act of changing lanes is probably the most dangerous thing there is to do on a motorway after merging with traffic. Essentially forcing people to do it more often increases risk for everyone concerned. Especially if they want to pedal.

So in the UK you can't get in that empty lane and pass him? That's ridiculous. How could you even enforce that? So all the traffic on the road is forced to go as slow as the slowest car in the overtaking lane, simply because "undertaking" him is illegal?

Pretty much, it's technically not allowed and is technically illegal. It's only designed to stop people weaving about through lanes trying to get up the road a little quicker. If you have a tool driving slowly in the fastest lane the coppers will ignore undertaking.

So although 'by the book' it's agaisnt the law, the police dont bother enforcing it.

DaveC426913

Nov8-09, 10:40 AM

It's just my point of view that it's not my responsibility to allow people to speed by getting out of their way.Once again, you need to divorce yourself of the rationalization that this has anything whatsoever to do with speed.

It has absolutely nothing to do with speed. This is a straw man that you keep using to defend your actions. It is invalid.

It has everything to do with passing. It is a passing lane. If you are not in the process of passing a car, you do not belong in the passing lane. Period.

Address that.

leroyjenkens

Nov8-09, 10:57 AM

It's encouraing agressive driving though. Somone who wants to fly down the motorway will find a way to do it. By leaving a 'fast' lane blocked up they then have to weave through traffic in slower lanes to get back into a faster lane. 'they need to find their own opening'.
Your argument is that criminals will be criminals regardless of any obstacles in their way, so it's our responsibility to mitigate the consequences of what they do. My argument is that it's not our responsibility.
The act of changing lanes is probably the most dangerous thing there is to do on a motorway after merging with traffic. Essentially forcing people to do it more often increases risk for everyone concerned. Especially if they want to pedal.
But I'm not FORCING them to do it. That's like saying raising taxes is FORCING people to steal. Or if I don't give a robber my money, I'm FORCING him to shoot me. Somehow it becomes my fault that he shot me?
Once again, you need to divorce yourself of the rationalization that this has anything whatsoever to do with speed.

It has absolutely nothing to do with speed. This is a straw man that you keep using to defend your actions. It is invalid.

It has everything to do with passing. It is a passing lane. If you are not in the process of passing a car, you do not belong in the passing lane. Period.

Address that.
I have addressed that. Just because the passing lane is for passing, doesn't mean you can't cruise in it. Why is it mutually exclusive?

The reason I keep bringing up the thing you say is irrelevant is because I was asked why I don't move. That's why.

russ_watters

Nov8-09, 11:04 AM

It's encouraing agressive driving though. It is a little worse than that: It is passive aggressive driving. He's being intentionally provokative.

russ_watters

Nov8-09, 11:05 AM

I have addressed that. Just because the passing lane is for passing, doesn't mean you can't cruise in it. Why is it mutually exclusive? Because the law says it is!

Dave posted the law that says precisely the opposite of what you are claiming: 'Stay to the right unless passing'.

xxChrisxx

Nov8-09, 11:36 AM

ok time to put a rest to this.

I had to google where you were using the I-95 as a reference.

please read.#
The 2009 Florida Statutes

Title XXIII
MOTOR VEHICLES

Chapter 316
STATE UNIFORM TRAFFIC CONTROL

View Entire Chapter

316.081 Driving on right side of roadway; exceptions.--

(1) Upon all roadways of sufficient width, a vehicle shall be driven upon the right half of the roadway, except as follows:

(a) When overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction under the rules governing such movement;

(b) When an obstruction exists making it necessary to drive to the left of the center of the highway; provided any person so doing shall yield the right-of-way to all vehicles traveling in the proper direction upon the unobstructed portion of the highway within such distance as to constitute an immediate hazard;

(c) Upon a roadway divided into three marked lanes for traffic under the rules applicable thereon; or

(d) Upon a roadway designated and signposted for one-way traffic.

(2) Upon all roadways, any vehicle proceeding at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing shall be driven in the right-hand lane then available for traffic or as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway except when overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction or when preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.

(3) Upon any roadway having four or more lanes for moving traffic and providing for two-way movement of traffic, no vehicle shall be driven to the left of the centerline of the roadway, except when authorized by official traffic control devices designating certain lanes to the left side of the center of the roadway for use by traffic not otherwise permitted to use such lanes, or except as permitted under paragraph (1)(b). However, this subsection shall not be construed as prohibiting the crossing of the centerline in making a left turn into or from an alley, private road, or driveway.

(4) A violation of this section is a noncriminal traffic infraction, punishable as a moving violation as provided in chapter 318.

No arguing against that.
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0316/SEC081.HTM&Title=-%3E2001-%3ECh0316-%3ESection%20081

The Uniform Vehicle Code states:

Upon all roadways any vehicle proceeding at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing shall be driven in the right-hand lane then available for traffic ...

Note that this law refers to the "normal" speed of traffic, not the "legal" speed of traffic. The 60 MPH driver in a 55 MPH zone where everybody else is going 65 MPH must move right

/ thread tbh.

leroyjenkens

Nov8-09, 11:43 AM

It is a little worse than that: It is passive aggressive driving. He's being intentionally provokative.
And you can prove my intent how?
Dave posted the law that says precisely the opposite of what you are claiming: 'Stay to the right unless passing'.
But it didn't say that.
Upon all roadways any vehicle proceeding at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing shall be driven in the right-hand lane then available for traffic ...

Note that this law refers to the "normal" speed of traffic, not the "legal" speed of traffic. The 60 MPH driver in a 55 MPH zone where everybody else is going 65 MPH must move right
"Normal" is ambiguous. I already argued that through my interpretation, that law is working under the assumption that people aren't speeding.

DaveC426913

Nov8-09, 11:46 AM

And you can prove my intent how?

1] You have admitted it freely.

2] The presumption is that you are an honest person, arguing in good faith. Of course you could lie, but if you want to crack that door open, the implication is that we could begin assuming that, at any time you are lying, and assign all sorts of nefarious motives to you. You sure you want to open that door?

xxChrisxx

Nov8-09, 11:47 AM

And you can prove my intent how?

But it didn't say that.

"Normal" is ambiguous. I already argued that through my interpretation, that law is working under the assumption that people aren't speeding.

The above exhert IS the law. Keep to the right most lane you can for driving.
'Norma' speed is defined. Read the damn post. It's the speed the traffic if going regardless of speed limit.
i've just relise it's not quoted, hold on i'll alter that. read the bit in bold.

You are now arguing against something that has been proven and demonstated to show YOU are in the wrong.

DaveC426913

Nov8-09, 11:52 AM

I already argued that through my interpretation, that law is working under the assumption that people aren't speeding.

It is not assuming that. If it were, it would say so. They have chosen the words carefully.

leroyjenkens

Nov8-09, 11:53 AM

The above exhert IS the law. Keep to the right most lane you can for driving.
'Norma' speed is defined. Read the damn post. It's the speed the traffic if going regardless of speed limit.
i've just relise it's not quoted, hold on i'll alter that. read the bit in bold.

You are now arguing against something that has been proven and demonstated to show YOU are in the wrong.

Oh, I thought those were your words. Where does it say that on the link? I can't find it.
1] You have admitted it freely.

2] The presumption is that you are an honest person, arguing in good faith. Of course you could lie, but if you want to crack that door open, the implication is that we could begin assuming that, at any time you are lying, and assign all sorts of nefarious motives to you. You sure you want to open that door?
That wouldn't make much sense.
If you can quote where I said I'm intentionally provoking people by doing that, then go ahead.
But assigning an intent to my actions without any basis would get you no where.
It is not assuming that. If it were, it would say so. They have chosen the words carefully.
I wouldn't be so sure about that. I have no reason to assume the state or government makes perfect laws.

xxChrisxx

Nov8-09, 11:57 AM

It's on a different link, stating all the traffic laws of different states. Its a university site which i've now closed and can't seem to fid again! give us a sec.

I'm tying to find an original link to the uniform vehicle code. and its precedents for interpretation.

http://www.mit.edu/~jfc/right.html

That has the summary and the precedents referenced.

I'm not sure how precedents work in the US though, with state laws and federal etc,etc. What you can be spanked for in 1 palce is perfectly legal everywhere else. You'd have to find a specific precednt for where you lived.

leroyjenkens

Nov8-09, 12:18 PM

On that link, for Florida, it says "Governor Bush vetoed 2005 SB732, which would have reserved the left lane for passing, saying that drivers blocking the left lane are 'cautious and careful.'"

xxChrisxx

Nov8-09, 12:32 PM

On that link, for Florida, it says "Governor Bush vetoed 2005 SB732, which would have reserved the left lane for passing, saying that drivers blocking the left lane are 'cautious and careful.'"

Well there you go. Like I said precedents are odd in the US. As far as that goes you are fine doing what you are doing legally. Well done.

However legal it is, the method in which you are driving IS more dangerous by forcing people who want to go quicker to weave through traffic. This is the reason for most undartaking and keep right laws. It'd be interesting to complile accident staticstics involving overtaking on a keep right enforced state compared to one that doesnt. I'm searching for reliable data.

I think the thread should end here.

Conclusions:

The majority of states in the US actively encourage the keep right, pass left rule.
Precendent would have it in Florida you are fine to cruise in the left lane.

leroyjenkens

Nov8-09, 12:45 PM

However legal it is, the method in which you are driving IS more dangerous by forcing people who want to go quicker to weave through traffic. This is the reason for most undartaking and keep right laws.
Is it? Seems to me that the keep right law would just cause more lane changing, hence it would be more dangerous.

How is this law enforced? Does a cop see someone force a speeding car to pass on the right and he decides to not go after the speeding car, but to go after the person who blocked him?

xxChrisxx

Nov8-09, 12:54 PM

Is it? Seems to me that the keep right law would just cause more lane changing, hence it would be more dangerous.

How is this law enforced? Does a cop see someone force a speeding car to pass on the right and he decides to not go after the speeding car, but to go after the person who blocked him?

I believe you are being deliberately obtuse now.

Are you honestly saying that someone pulling over and merging to the lane to the right at a similar speed after an overtaking maneuver has been completed is MORE dangerous than someone agressively weaving through traffic.

If you in an overtaking lane, its safe to assume that your lane is moving faster than the lane to the right of you.

YOU are forcing someone with a larger speed differential (as they would be closing on you) to the lane to the right of them to move over to attempt to pass. OR to brake to reduce speed differential, only to then accelerate in the lane to the right in attempt to pass. Either way, large speed differentals is bad, as it allows less reaction time.

If you are honestly saying you moving over to the right, merging and sitting in a lane where traffic is moving to a similar speed to you is more dangerous that forcing faster cars to pass in a slower lane, you are either deliberately lying or have questionable judgement.

It may be the ideal for evenyone to simply travel the speed limit. That is a pipe dream. The best we can do as driver is take a sensible pill and just do what we can to mitigate the risk to everyone. Fast drivers will wantto drive fst, they will find a way to do it.

By being stubborn YOU are forcing these people to take more dangerous and risky moneouvers, by proxy YOU are drving an a dangerous manner. End of.

DaveC426913

Nov8-09, 01:25 PM

I believe you are being deliberately obtuse now.

By being stubborn YOU are forcing these people to take more dangerous and risky moneouvers, by proxy YOU are drving an a dangerous manner. End of.

I have to grant leroy his due here. The above is a flawed argument. It is (loosely) analagous to saying that, by locking my doors, I am forcing burglars to break into my house through the windows, which is inherently more dangerous.

No, the only valid argument is whether leroy is obliged to stay out of the passing lane regardless of how other drivers behave.

leroyjenkens

Nov8-09, 01:36 PM

I believe you are being deliberately obtuse now.
Disagreeing with you doesn't make someone obtuse.
Are you honestly saying that someone pulling over and merging to the lane to the right at a similar speed after an overtaking maneuver has been completed is MORE dangerous than someone agressively weaving through traffic.

No, but that's a strawman. I never said anything about anyone aggressively weaving through traffic. Why do you conclude that passing on the right automatically equates to "aggressively weaving through traffic"?
YOU are forcing someone with a larger speed differential (as they would be closing on you) to the lane to the right of them to move over to attempt to pass. OR to brake to reduce speed differential, only to then accelerate in the lane to the right in attempt to pass. Either way, large speed differentals is bad, as it allows less reaction time.
Again with "forcing". How am I forcing this to happen? They have no control over their vehicle?

Braking and accelerating happen when you want to pass on the left too. Why is passing in one lane by braking and accelerating more dangerous than the same thing happening in the other lane?
If you are honestly saying you moving over to the right, merging and sitting in a lane where traffic is moving to a similar speed to you is more dangerous that forcing faster cars to pass in a slower lane, you are either deliberately lying or have questionable judgement.

I said it increases the amount of lane changing, that's what makes it more dangerous.
It may be the ideal for evenyone to simply travel the speed limit. That is a pipe dream. The best we can do as driver is take a sensible pill and just do what we can to mitigate the risk to everyone. Fast drivers will wantto drive fst, they will find a way to do it.
And instead of blaming them, you blame me. That's unbelievable.
By being stubborn YOU are forcing these people to take more dangerous and risky moneouvers, by proxy YOU are drving an a dangerous manner. End of.
That's the typical American attitude; blame everyone and everything you can, just as long you don't blame the one directly responsible.

xxChrisxx

Nov8-09, 01:38 PM

I have to grant leroy his due here. The above is a flawed argument. It is (loosely) analagous to saying that, by locking my doors, I am forcing burglars to break into my house through the windows, which is inherently more dangerous.

No, the only valid argument is whether leroy is obliged to stay out of the passing lane regardless of how other drivers behave.

The above isn't an arguement, it's fact.

Large speed differentials on a motorway are the dangerous thing about maneuvers. Forcing someone with a large speed differential to make the maneuver when you have a much simpler and less dangerous one is stupid.

And to your responce, your analogy isn't great but it's close enough to be tweaked. In your case you have something to lose by leaving your door open, it would cost you more simply to allow the robbers in.

A better analogy would be a similar case about if someone should lock their car or not.
http://www.physicsforums.com/archive/index.php/t-329673.html
It was agreed that if was a shed, you may as well leave it open. The cost of a window would be more than the contents.

This case is more like that thread. Leroy had nothing to lose by moving over,as he is going the speed he wants. Ultimately that lower speed idfferential maneuver is less dangerous that aloing a faster car to 'go the long way round'.. No loss of progress and increase in safety. Net gain.

xxChrisxx

Nov8-09, 01:42 PM

That's the typical American attitude; blame everyone and everything you can, just as long you don't blame the one directly responsible.

I'm English... and don't have your 'it's not my problem' attitude.

It's not about blame. It's about safety.

The safest course of action is for the following driver not to speed.
The next safest course of action is for you with the lower speed differention to make the maneuver.
The least safe option is to do your own thing and force the other driver to make the more dangerous maneuver.

It's a judgement call, if you feel the guy behind REALLY wants to get past you, and is driving stupidly by getting up your arse. Just move... it's safer for all. Not doing so leads to frustration on the part of the other driver, frustration behind the wheel can lead to road rage and a collapse of judgement.

I am not blaming you, I am blaming the speeder. I am accusing you of aggrivating the problem.

leroyjenkens

Nov8-09, 01:58 PM

The safest course of action is for the following driver not to speed.
The next safest course of action is for you with the lower speed differention to make the maneuver.
The least safe option is to do your own thing and force the other driver to make the more dangerous maneuver.

It's a judgement call, if you feel the guy behind REALLY wants to get past you, and is driving stupidly by getting up your arse. Just move... it's safer for all. Not doing so leads to frustration on the part of the other driver, frustration behind the wheel can lead to road rage and a collapse of judgement.
I've found the safest way is to let them find an opening and pass me in the other lane. I've had many times where I was about to get over, even with my blinker on, and they speed up from behind me into the other lane and pass me, forcing me to go back into the lane I was just in. Same thing happens when someone speeds up behind me. I don't know if they're going to slow down, or drift over into the other lane about 2 inches from me as they pass me. If I get over, they'll hit me, if I stay, they can at least avoid me.
I never know what these nutcases are going to do, so I just stay where I am.

xxChrisxx

Nov8-09, 02:01 PM

I've found the safest way is to let them find an opening and pass me in the other lane. I've had many times where I was about to get over, even with my blinker on, and they speed up from behind me into the other lane and pass me, forcing me to go back into the lane I was just in. Same thing happens when someone speeds up behind me. I don't know if they're going to slow down, or drift over into the other lane about 2 inches from me as they pass me. If I get over, they'll hit me, if I stay, they can at least avoid me.
I never know what these nutcases are going to do, so I just stay where I am.

If that works for you, then fair play.

DaveC426913

Nov8-09, 02:03 PM

Forcing someone with a large speed differential to make the maneuver when you have a much simpler and less dangerous one is stupid.

And to your responce, your analogy isn't great but it's close enough to be tweaked.
While it could be tweaked to more closely mirror the driving issue, that would be pointless and would result in a red herring argument. The way it is gets the point across just as effectively

Leroy is not forcing another driver to act dangerously. The causitive agent that results in the other driver acting dangerously is his speeding.

Locking my doors does not lead to risk of harm to person or property. The burgar's attmept to brask into my house is the causitive agent.

That's really all that's necessary to refute the forcing argument.

xxChrisxx

Nov8-09, 02:14 PM

While it could be tweaked to more closely mirror the driving issue, that would be pointless and would result in a red herring argument. The way it is gets the point across just as effectively

Leroy is not forcing another driver to act dangerously. The causitive agent that results in the other driver acting dangerously is his speeding.

Locking my doors does not lead to risk of harm to person or property. The burgar's attmept to brask into my house is the causitive agent.

That's really all that's necessary to refute the forcing argument.

You do realise that pointing our random logical fallacies is utterly pointless. As I wasn't using the analogy as an argument, I stated this. And it was you that used an analogy in the first place that did not accurately depict the scenario, ths being guilty of both strawman and red herring st the same time.

Fact - higher speed differentials are dangerous. Best solution = dont speed. next best = safest maneuover.

It's all sorted now though. I didnt buy the other justifications (speed etc). But Leroy's latest response that he does what he does becuase in those cases he feels more comfortable letting the overtaking driver make the maneuver is fine by me.

Noone should ever be bullied into doing something uncomfortable behind the wheel. It may not be the most ideal solution but if it work, it works.

Moonbear

Nov8-09, 04:52 PM

I never know what these nutcases are going to do, so I just stay where I am.

In that case, I strongly suggest you take a defensive driving course. It will help you learn the best way to adjust your driving to be safest in the presence of other drivers.

And, yes, if someone has parked themself in the passing lane, people desiring to go past them will take any opportunity presented to get around them, even if that means you've forced them to take the unsafe option of passing on the right instead of on the left. If people have room to pass you on the right, there is no reason for you to sit in the left lane, because it implies that the right lane is moving sufficiently faster and has enough space between cars that you could have moved over without having to slow down.

It's the same rules applied to bicycles and pedestrians sharing a path. If a bicycle has to weave around pedestrians all over the place, there's more chance that someone is going to get hurt. If instead the pedestrians, who are moving slower, stay to the right, the bicycle rider always knows they can safely go to the left. When people just maintaining a speed stay in the left lane when they belong in the right, it adds a lot more guessing instead of always having the same direction be the path that's open to maneuver out of the way. If someone else in the right lane is moving slower than you, then that is the time when you can move to the left, overtake them, then move back to the right. Once in a while, that does mean someone who wants to fly ends up on the bumper of someone who is just passing someone incredibly slow but not flying, but a quick check in the mirror before pulling out will usually prevent that...just let the faster vehicle overtake both of you and then pull out behind them, overtake the slower vehicle, and return to the right lane again.

If you are going the same speed or slower than someone in the right lane, there is no reason you can't pull back in behind them in the right lane and let someone who wants to pass get around. Safe driving includes awareness of everything around you, not tunnel vision straight ahead. Every driver's manual I've ever read (and I've lived in several states and have read the driver's manuals in each of them to learn any variations in the laws) tells you that if someone is tailgating you (interpret as driving too close for comfort), the best thing to do is move to the right and let them pass.

Sure, you can blame them and collect the damages from them if you get in an accident from them rear-ending you, but the whole point of driving safely is to avoid those accidents in the first place, not figure out who to assign blame to after the fact. If someone else around you is driving unsafely, rather than being stubborn about not changing a thing and blaming them for the accident, it's much better to just get out of the way and avoid the accident entirely.