Disclosure Project by Steven M. Greer: Reliability?

[eyesoftruth]

Howdy.

This is my first message to this board.

Anyone have visited link which is my title?
http://www.disclosureproject.com/

How much there is reliablity in Mr. Steven M. Greer sayings?

There is some impressive marginal of allkind of generals and other bigshoemen, who past work many so called secret programs.

I found one link, where Greer is listed just one ufo cultic lunatic
http://www.darkecho.com/skepticalbeliever/cults.html

Some people stills trust his sayings, even those who bunk other ufo stories.

 

[Overdose]

He's credible, just look at the names he's collected and the people willing to back him up, that should count for something.
The ufo page about Greer you posted up is bunk, he states that Greer is a liar and weaves fancifal stories without ever explaining what it is he is lying about.
In other words the page only amounts to 'Greer is a liar because i say he is'.
The so called 'stories' Greer weaves are backed up by respected ex-military personnel, with a lot to loose by lying.
Id sooner take their word over some guy having a one-sided rant on a webpage.

 

[russ_watters]

Very few people with credibility consider Greer to be credible.

edit: ehh, not strong enough. Greer is a second order crackpot, meaning he's considered a crackpot by many other crackpots. He makes a lot of claims and says he has evidence - he even parades out mute witnesses - but never provides anything real.

Read some of the quotes on the sample witness testimony page and ask yourself: what do they actually say? The answer is, not much.

 

[Overdose]

once again, meaningless statements with nothing to back them up, 'hes considered a crackpot by many other crackpots' which, when you get down to it amounts to nothing more than calling him a weirdo. Although I am sure in Russes case anyone remotely connected with ufos gets tarred with the crazy brush so we probably should take his remarks too seriously.
btw over 100 witnesses publically willing to testify what they've seen before congress is far from mute, that's as vocal as it gets. And I've explained before Greer claims pretty much nothing, he let's his findings speak for themselves and draws very little conclusions from them which is the beauty of the project. The testimonys speak for themselves.
But I am not going to go round in circles on this one, he's got a lot credible witnesses to make statements about government involvement in ufos. Either you think they're all lying and risking their reputations for nothing and ignore it, or you put two and two together an conclude that large numbers of people with much too loose wouldn't parade around silly lies and just maybe they're worth listening to.

 

[russ_watters]

Well, we agree on one thing:

And I've explained before Greer claims pretty much nothing, he let's his findings speak for themselves and draws very little conclusions from them which is the beauty of the project. The testimonys speak for themselves.

It certainly is the beauty of it: if you make no claims, you're debunk-proof.
The result, however, is a nice book with a pretty cover, which claims nothing (nothing specific anyway - there are, of course, implied claims and general claims) and is therefore meaningless. The general claim is this:

The recorded testimony of scores of military, government and other witnesses to Unidentified Flying Objects and Extraterrestrial events and projects from around the world establishes the existence of a UFO/Extraterrestrial presence on and around Earth.

So let's examine the testimony and see if any of it supports that claim...

http://www.disclosureproject.org/witnesssamples.htm are the witness testimony samples. While I wouldn't expect him to give away his best testimony, I would expect the samples would say something. These statements use a whole lot of words to say nothing.

The first excerpt says "there is a serious possibility" that "should be the subject of rigorous scientific investigation" - it makes no claims and provides no evidence.

The second is six whole paragraphs that boil down to 'the government can keep secrets.' I agree - but so what? It makes no claims and provides no evidence regarding UFOs.

The third is a guy who says he was scared about a document. He says nothing about its content. Once again, he makes no claims and provides no evidence regarding UFOs.

Either you think they're all lying and risking their reputations for nothing and ignore it...

Lying is only necessary if you actually say something. As I have shown, these witnesses say nothing of substance, so lying is irrelevant.

I could start my own project about the Loch Ness Monster. I'd pay witnesses $1,000 each for the effort of talking to me and ask them to comment on the Loch Ness Monster. Responses would be things like 'the US Navy cannot deny the existence of the Loch Ness Monster.' True, but like the above, utterly meaningless.

 

[Overdose]

This is my whole problem with your deunking of the discloure project, a couple of witness testimonys and you think you have read enough to conclude that Greer is a crackpot and there is nothing more to be seen or done.
Read all the witness testimonys and then we can talk, what you're doing is pretty much reading the first page out of several hundered and concluding that there is no need for further investigation by congress. I am sure i don't have to tell you how unscientfic that is. Read all the data and then draw conclusions. If you like you can private message me and i can send you a 100 plus pdf document which gives a very good summary of all the testimonys. Then if you want to talk about the evidence and its merits id be quite happy to : p

 

[Overdose]

I could start my own project about the Loch Ness Monster. I'd pay witnesses $1,000 each for the effort of talking to me and ask them to comment on the Loch Ness Monster. Responses would be things like 'the US Navy cannot deny the existence of the Loch Ness Monster.' True, but like the above, utterly meaningless.

Are you implying that witnesses are being bribed/paid off for their statements? if so do you have any evidence or good reason to believe this?

 

[RonRyan85]

I've always thought Doctor Steven Greer M.D. was the most creditable
person around with his DISCLOSURE PROJECT. I have his book and have
heard many of the retired military men speak and say they are ready to
tell of their experiences with UFOs. The only disappointment is nothing
seems to be happening. (Many claim the Government KNOWS that UFOs/
alien spacecraft do exist but are not ready to admit it for many reasons.)
How could ALL of the reports of UFOs be fake? Sure ...many reports
and photos are fake and exist only to sell books and videos,ect. but are
all the sightings just people mistaking airplanes, falling stars and pranks by
kids the only things moving throught our airspace?

 

[russ_watters]

This is my whole problem with your deunking of the discloure project, a couple of witness testimonys and you think you have read enough to conclude that Greer is a crackpot and there is nothing more to be seen or done.
Read all the witness testimonys and then we can talk, what you're doing is pretty much reading the first page out of several hundered and concluding that there is no need for further investigation by congress. I am sure i don't have to tell you how unscientfic that is. Read all the data and then draw conclusions. If you like you can private message me and i can send you a 100 plus pdf document which gives a very good summary of all the testimonys. Then if you want to talk about the evidence and its merits id be quite happy to : p

Overdose, can you provide anything that would suggest that further reading would be anything other than a waste of my time? 'Don't judge until you've read everything,' besides being completely unhelpful, is classic buy-my-book-crackpottery. The point of an abstract, for example, is to enable the reader of a paper to decide if it is worth reading further. Greer has not provided anything to suggest that there is a reason to read his book: should we really take him at his word?

Are you implying that witnesses are being bribed/paid off for their statements?

Not at all - but expert witnesses don't testify unless they are paid. That's how they make a living. Sometimes, they even get paid just to put their name on the witness list as a ploy - a bluff.

How could ALL of the reports of UFOs be fake?

I urge you to apply some critical thinking. Where have you heard anyone ever claim that all of the reports of UFOs are fake? No one ever does that. What skeptics say is that no compelling evidence has been presented - and your statements above imply that this is true of Greer's "Disclosure Project" as well. Its a lot of people (or, perhaps, just Greer speaking for a lot of people) who say they have things to say but never say them.

I've always thought Doctor Steven Greer M.D. was the most creditable
person around with his DISCLOSURE PROJECT

On what do you base that?

The only disappointment is nothing
seems to be happening.

Why doesn't that activate your crackpot detector?

but are all the sightings just people mistaking airplanes, falling stars and pranks by kids the only things moving throught our airspace?

In all likelyhood, yes. Venus, actually, is the most common.

 

[Overdose]

Overdose, can you provide anything that would suggest that further reading would be anything other than a waste of my time? 'Don't judge until you've read everything,' besides being completely unhelpful, is classic buy-my-book-crackpottery. The point of an abstract, for example, is to enable the reader of a paper to decide if it is worth reading further. Greer has not provided anything to suggest that there is a reason to read his book: should we really take him at his word?

You can't be bothered to read the pdf like i suspected you wouldnt, i could provide you with some copy n pasted testimonys out of the pdf to encourage further reading, but my question is would i be wasting my time? are we simply going to go round in never ending circles of you calling Greer a crackpot without having read his work?
The absurdity is in the time its taken you to question the validity of the work and slate greer you could have actually read it and have an informed opinon!
lets not forget you were crying 'crackpot' before youd even read any of the testimonys, you were probably calling greer a crackpot before youd even logged onto to the site. I have to keep reminding myself that I am actually posting on a science forum where people are supposed to weigh up the evidence before deciding if something is compelling or valid.

Not at all - but expert witnesses don't testify unless they are paid. That's how they make a living. Sometimes, they even get paid just to put their name on the witness list as a ploy - a bluff.

well if you're allowed to make statements without backing them up then id say that's nonsense and wildy speculative, ironically something you seem to be accusing greer of.

I urge you to apply some critical thinking. Where have you heard anyone ever claim that all of the reports of UFOs are fake? No one ever does that. What skeptics say is that no compelling evidence has been presented - and your statements above imply that this is true of Greer's "Disclosure Project" as well. Its a lot of people (or, perhaps, just Greer speaking for a lot of people) who say they have things to say but never say them.

LOL how would you be in a position to know who is saying what when youve never read the full witness testimonys? Who exactly are these people you think are claiming to have things to say but 'never say them'.
what are you talking about?

On what do you base that? Why doesn't that activate your crackpot detector?

Crackpottery has nothing to do with it, congress isn't going to investigate government knowledge of ufos overnight, greer has a hard task ahead of him. Congress may never even lauch an investigation, time will tell. The things that greer wants public arnt the kind of thing the US government is keen to get out.


Anyway this is boring and nothing is being learnt...you can't teach those who've already made up their minds :zzz:

 

[Chronos]

I'm satisfied that Greer is delusional, at best. But, feel free to form you own opinion. Here are some recent interviews with Greer to get a feel for where he is coming from"
http://forums.uforesearcher.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000035
http://www.disclosureproject.org/TranscriptArtBellInterviewAugust82004.htm
http://www.disclosureproject.org/transcriptcoasttocoastJan312003.htm

some additional sources
http://www.rense.com/general10/mitch.htm
http://www.phact.org/e/z/greer.htm
http://www.ufomind.com/misc/1999/jan/d07-001.shtml

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Greer is hard to figure. When he first started getting attention he seemed pretty reasonable. Then he went completely off the deep end. I have never been sure if its a scam or total belief in the most extreme conspiracies. To me, as time goes by he appears more and more con man than devotee and true believer. For me the catch is always this: What is reasonable behavior for someone who believes or knows what he claims to.

I'm not a Greer fan, but in his defense, even Senator Barry Goldwater believed in the government UFO cover up conspiracy. Ed Mitchell, who complains about Greer in one link, has also publicly stated there are small groups, operating outside of the government, who control the UFO information. "Maybe not the best people" in his own words or nearly so. Some of these seemingly absurd conspiracy theories begin in high places and filter down. Someone like Greer then gets all fired up without having any first hand knowledge. I can imagine that Greer gets conned and then just passes on the bogus information. Don't know.

Oh yes, as for the photo, one needs to watch out for so called debunked UFO photos or claims, as one does so called genuine UFO photos and claims.
Debunked, according to whom? Was it really the same photo. Who was there when Greer showed the photo? Was the conclusion in Bluebook certain or nebulous? I find much debunking of UFO claims as bad as some of Greer's claims. This is one reason that I ignore both.

 

[Dayle Record]

In Gordon Cooper's book, Leap Of Faith, he talks about a good ol boy engineer from Tremonton Utah. He discusses this Tremonton guys viewing , close up of a large UFO. He and a friend were out on one edge of the valley up there, kicking around the ruins of an old cement plant, when he heard a loud engine starting up. He got such a close up look at how the turbines worked that he duplicated the thing, and made it in a barn. Welling was his name. Cooper went to Tremonton, and flew it.

Cooper reported seeing UFO's with american pilots, in american flight suits, and some other class of machine, seen by a friend, that had no driver, but was a sentient craft.

I do not believe in secrecy, at any level of government. I think it is all inside out. I think that we should have as much privacy as we like, and government should be utterly transparent. A mark of steadfast character is transparency, and clear purpose.
All this secrecy is nefarious, and a result of economic interests driving the international presence of our government; so nefarious it has to be secret.

Of course there is a huge coverup, many huge coverups. There are also a lot of preposterous tales floating around, the internet. They are interesting though, look up the Urantia Book, it is a large mystical text that claims to be of extraterrestrial origin. Urantia, supposedly is the name that outsiders call our planet, it means The Planet Of The Cross, because of our location in a cross-like constellation. Now it would be just another whack item, if the huge congregation had not just split, over an attempted takeover, by an American General.

I am ever so aware that the Universe is utterly magical, I mean, really, the more we look, the more beautiful, and powerful, and mysterious it is. Things are plenty wondrous without Extraterrestrial space craft. You know, and I know that if their existence were hidden from the people of the United States, it would be stupidity parading as an exclusive domain of high intellect. Either that or they are in charge, and we are being spared the grim reality. Or the planet was sold for a few necklaces, some beads, and a couple of fancy shirts; and the inner circle of coolness, just hasn't figured that out yet.

I will tell you this, in southern Utah, there are pictographs, of a special sort, I think they are ancient Uranium Miners, that is what they look like. They all have a big snake thing in them that looks like the loch ness monster. I am not kidding about this. Here.
http://home.comcast.net/~daylerecord/wsb/html/view.cgi-photo.html--SiteID-1819286.html

The loch ness thing is at the bottom of this one, toward the middle. There are a lot more of these figures, near the Black Dragon Uranium Mine, and they are ghostly, and amazing.

 

[Dayle Record]

PS These pictographs, are from approx 2000 bc, they are called Barrier Figures. No one knows who these entities were. There are huge panels of them in the San Rafael Swell, Buckskin Wash, Black Dragon Canyon, Sego Canyon is a little way over toward Colorado.

 

[russ_watters]

You can't be bothered to read the pdf like i suspected you wouldnt, i could provide you with some copy n pasted testimonys out of the pdf to encourage further reading, but my question is would i be wasting my time?

Sorry, I missed the part about the pdf: russ_watters@lycos.com Just one quote with some substance would be a good start though. All I ask is one.

are we simply going to go round in never ending circles of you calling Greer a crackpot without having read his work?

You're misrepresenting the issue: I have read the work he provides free. If he wants me to pay for more, he needs to provide some substance to justify it. You're burden-of-proof shifting.

lets not forget you were crying 'crackpot' before youd even read any of the testimonys, you were probably calling greer a crackpot before youd even logged onto to the site. I have to keep reminding myself that I am actually posting on a science forum where people are supposed to weigh up the evidence before deciding if something is compelling or valid.

My, you make a lot of assumptions. Don't forget we've had this discussion before and in a previous discussion I spent considerable time going through his site and posting my impressions. I've also looked at his other sites - the other crackpottery that he sells - free energy and UFO technology. I've also searched for the impressions of others about him - including finding evidence of fraud. Mr. Greer is an old and famous crackpot - this certainly isn't the first time I've heard about or read about him, and unless you have a short memory, you already know that.

well if you're allowed to make statements without backing them up then id say that's nonsense and wildy speculative, ironically something you seem to be accusing greer of.

Read the statement I wrote: Just like the ones in Greer's project, it says nothing of substance. You can't back up or fail to back up a statement that doesn't say anything.

LOL how would you be in a position to know who is saying what when youve never read the full witness testimonys? Who exactly are these people you think are claiming to have things to say but 'never say them'.
what are you talking about?

Overdose, did you even read Ron's post? That was his impression, I was responding to. And why haven't you commented on the excerpts from Greer's site? You say I can't comment until I've read everything Greer has, yet you won't comment on the things that I have read. Why not address the information that's here on the table? Could it be because admitting that the 3 witnesses he provided as a teaser say nothing of value weakens his case considerably?

 

[Chronos]

My turn to complain about not reading links. Mitchell complained about being cited as an advocate, which he is not. Another complained about Greer infringing on his copyrights, which Greer initially denied and an associate of his later explained as 'just a memory lapse'. Greer goes public with a well known hoaxed UFO photograph and won't even respond to questions about it. Six times, his SEAS 'company' has claimed to be ready to go to market with the latest 'free energy' device, and when asked about missing his own self-imposed deadlines, says 'it turned out to be nothing'. Running around signaling UFO's with flashlights and laser pointers is harmless fun, until you charge your followers for the privelege. He claims to know, and been recruited [unsuccessfully] by 'representatives' of MJ-12 and the Malta Knights, was trained in the art of remote viewing by a widely celebrated crackpot, telepathically communicates with aliens, and led a successful experiment in creating crop circles.

Draw your own conclusions.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Not true. Mitchell is a UFO advocate. I can pm you his personal email if you wish.

I'm only saying that going off the deep end can look like Greer. Beliefs are a powerful thing.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Crud! I was just going to send it but I may have deleted it... You can contact him here.
http://www.noetic.org/contact.cfm?Pval=4
http://www.noetic.org/about/history.cfm

I can't believe I might have lost this... I should have it but it may take a day or so. Hopefully its archieved. Anyway, he is quite open to discussion and can also be found at his discussion forums. I contacted the noetic institute because I didn't believe the Ed Mitchell at the forums is really THE Ed Mitchell. It is. He wrote back himself and invited further discussion.

 

[Dayle Record]

Am I hearing that the laser blinding of Airline Pilots might be crackpot UFO enthusiasts, trying to phone home?

Look at that possibility.

 

[Overdose]

Sorry, I missed the part about the pdf: russ_watters@lycos.com Just one quote with some substance would be a good start though. All I ask is one. You're misrepresenting the issue: I have read the work he provides free. If he wants me to pay for more, he needs to provide some substance to justify it. You're burden-of-proof shifting.

Im not asking you to prove anything, just asking you to read a simple pdf document and to have have a full understanding of the material before dismissing its worth.
"Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance" (as Einstein once said) i think would apply here.

My, you make a lot of assumptions. Don't forget we've had this discussion before and in a previous discussion I spent considerable time going through his site and posting my impressions. I've also looked at his other sites - the other crackpottery that he sells - free energy and UFO technology. I've also searched for the impressions of others about him - including finding evidence of fraud. Mr. Greer is an old and famous crackpot - this certainly isn't the first time I've heard about or read about him, and unless you have a short memory,

I remember the previous thread, you called Greer a crackpot initially and only after some persuasion decided to actually read his website.
I also remembered you calling him a fraud and when i asked you to find me one instance of fraud all you could find was a webpage about how he once charged a group of people a small sum to join him in tracking ufos in a known location, which isn't fraud atall. Unless you could prove that he was purposefully leading them on a wild goose chase to rake in a few $'s. Which you arnt able to do, and given Greer's passion for ufo's it would be sensible to assume that he was geniune in looking for the ufos. You also as i remember seemed to think his charging people money for books/reading material was fraud, if that's the case then there are lot of fraudsters out there!

Overdose, did you even read Ron's post? That was his impression, I was responding to.

I know it was a response to Ron's comment and your response to him was a further strange accusation against Greer which you have dodged and avoided to back up or explain when asked to. Your simply making things up to strengthen your argument which frankly beggers belief.

And why haven't you commented on the excerpts from Greer's site? You say I can't comment until I've read everything Greer has, yet you won't comment on the things that I have read. Why not address the information that's here on the table? Could it be because admitting that the 3 witnesses he provided as a teaser say nothing of value weakens his case considerably?

I don't think the teasers are that great i'll agree with that but to say that they don't offer any motivation for further reading i personally disagree with. And since I am in possesion of the full witness testimonys i have first hand knowledge that the statements on the site are mearly the tip of a large ice-berg.
If Greer can be accused of anything poor promotion might be one of them i'll give you that.
I'll send you the pdf or a link to it shortly to your email

 

[Dayle Record]

I will get on topic here. I read everything I could find about the disclosure project, without spending money. Anyone who has worked in fund raising, knows how info and perks are handed out on a tidbit to dollar basis. I genuinely felt that this whole thing had degenerated into a con, for money. Every organization needs money in order to run, unless they are well funded. Their technique was very, very, bait and collect funding. The title Doctor, Medical Doctor, implies an ethic beyond question. Implying if a far thing from being.

I have read everything I can find about UFOs, and government complicity, and extra governmental complicity, and Scalar weapons, and synthetic telepathy, and shape shifting lizard theories, and the Illuminati, and I grew up in the military. I live in a state where the largest employer is the military. I have looked at broad cultural mythos regarding our governments involvement with alien species, and read all of John Maacks and Streibers work, and some others. I am a deeply skeptical individual, and at the same time willing to entertain the entire discussion of any subject.

I personally maintain, that extraterrestrial travelers to this time and physical place, will come by some other means than the physical as we know it. If another species were as physically bound as we are, and arrived here with some sort of superior drive and time shift mechanism, we would have a lot to fear. It would mean that the loss of their world was eminent, or they are real estate developers. The way we have brainwashed ourselves with God concepts, would make us very vulnerable to take over, by anyone in a white dress and blue cape, especially if their ship had appropriate archaic markings.

Secrecy is always the hallmark of infamy. The right thing, can always be discussed. Secrecy implies no dicussion, no respect.

Money for insider information is one of the hallmarks of shuck and jive.

 

[Overdose]

well i certainly believe that there are craft in our skys and in space that use some kind of field as opposed to jet propulsion to travel. That much you can quote me on, id like more of the truth to come out about these craft, the disclosurse project while by no means perfect seems to be the best shot at that at them moment which is why I am behind it.

 

[mapper]

Im an alien with Q like powers (star trek). Paypall me some money and Ill tell you a little more about me and my journeys.

 

[matthyaouw]

Im an alien with Q like powers (star trek). Paypall me some money and Ill tell you a little more about me and my journeys.

Q-like powers? I'll send the money when a stamped addressed envelope materialises on my desk. Fair deal?

 

[Overdose]

Seriously this is the last time i get in debates with people who feel able to critique material they haven't read. *goes to waste time somewhere else more fun...

 

[Physics-Learner]

i just became acquainted with the disclosure project. i am open-minded on a subject that i used to think was "people just wanting attention".

there are hundreds of high-level people coming forward. they have made fairly concrete statements about events they have witnessed. there are multiple claims about missiles having lights directed at them, as well as being able to dis-arm them. there are some claims as to the capture of crashed spacecraft .

so i don't think one can claim that these people are not saying anything substantial.

they are in fact, making substantial claims. whether they are true or not, i don't know.

but i can't find an agenda for why all these high-level people would make such claims.

the thought that they are doing this for money seems somewhat ridiculous. it is highly unlikely that they are in need of any money - they have all had well-paying jobs for a long time.

i mean if were talking about a small handful that may have squandered their money, that is one thing. just too many of them to lend any credence to them getting paid to show up on greer's site.

for those who do not believe what all these guys are saying, what agenda/reason do you think they may all be there ?

gosh, seti just came out with a document that gives protocols for what should be done should an employee get et contact.

all of a sudden, we have defeated big oil, and we are actually getting electric vehicles.

i think something big is simmering at the top of the cup. but i don't know what.

but i certainly can't dismiss what is being said at the disclosure project. there are too many people all claiming to have seen stuff of great substantiality. AGAIN, IF TRUE.

 

[FlexGunship]

all of a sudden, we have defeated big oil, and we are actually getting electric vehicles.

Wasn't much of a battle. Once electric cars became economically viable, they appeared. Just like you would expect in a free market. Kind of a non sequitur, don't you think?

P.S. Did we actually get rid of Overdose? Didn't know him. But I read this thread and he didn't seem like a very significant contributor.

 

[JaredJames]

Well he did get chewed up and spat out here. Didn't prove anything, didn't get anywhere.

Classic crack-pot behaviour. Take your arguments and questions and invert them back on you.

"Give me a source for what you claim about X"
"You give me a source for why you don't accept X"

You can't fight these people. Every thread like this has had this same repetitive pattern of a skeptic asking for evidence and the person making the claims refusing, generally because they feel they don't have to (it's your job to disprove not their job to prove), and asking you to give them evidence.

 

[Physics-Learner]

gosh, we could have had electric vehicles a long time ago.

 

[FlexGunship]

gosh, we could have had electric vehicles a long time ago.

We did! The Chevy Electrovair. And they sold like pet rocks. Batteries were too expensive. They didn't hold enough charge, and electricity cost way more per kW than gasoline.

It should be obvious to even the most casual observer that winning technologies win. Exxon has invested almost 200 million in battery development techno.logy because they know that someday it will be cheaper than gasoline.

When that happens, you will see BP charging stations, Shell batteries, and Exxon power plants. Look at history; companies with the most economically feasible ideas win.

EDIT: Smart cars have been around since 1994. Available for anyone to purchase if they choose to eschew gasoline. Really!

 

[Physics-Learner]

greer is claiming that these ets travel faster than light. that is some sort of substantial claim.

if a society is millions of years ahead of us, most anything is possible.

if we look back a million years, everything we do today would seem impossible to those people.

so i keep an open mind about greer and ets.

it seems to me that if these substantial claims are true, that something truly concrete will surface in my lifetime.

 

[FlexGunship]

greer is claiming that these ets travel faster than light. that is some sort of substantial claim.

Agreed. To date there is no evidence that anything travels faster than light much less something with mass.

if a society is millions of years ahead of us, most anything is possible.

The simple passage of time does not actually make more things possible. It gives time for technology to be developed which could accomplish things within the same rules that define what is possible even before that time passed.

That is the difference between "impossible in principle" and "impossible in practice."

The following is impossible in principle: go faster than light
The following is impossible in practice: accelerate to a speed very close to that of light

if we look back a million years, everything we do today would seem impossible to those people.

Argument from incredulity.

so i keep an open mind about greer and ets.

it seems to me that if these substantial claims are true, that something truly concrete will surface in my lifetime.

Good to keep an open mind, of course. However, there is no guarantee that evidence will surface in your lifetime. I wish there was a more obvious way to say that.

Your life is not so cosmically important that the universe has a deadline before which is must reveal it's secrets to you. I fully expect to die with so many mysteries unsolved.

 

[JaredJames]

greer is claiming that these ets travel faster than light. that is some sort of substantial claim.

if a society is millions of years ahead of us, most anything is possible.

if we look back a million years, everything we do today would seem impossible to those people.

so i keep an open mind about greer and ets.

it seems to me that if these substantial claims are true, that something truly concrete will surface in my lifetime.

This is all well and good, by all means be open minded. However, this is a physics forum and the rules are clear regarding personal theories and claims of this nature.

 

[FlexGunship]

This is all well and good, by all means be open minded. However, this is a physics forum and the rules are clear regarding personal theories and claims of this nature.

Oh, knock it off Iva--... oh... it's you.

 

[JaredJames]

Oh, knock it off Iva--... oh... it's you.

I consider myself open minded and love seeing discussions on these sort of things, but this whole thread is nothing but a request / denial process which negates the fact evidence is required.

I've just read through the some of the PMM threads and am currently rather miffed at the ignorance people show to basic principles. I think I'm bringing my negativity here.

You said it yourself, going faster than the speed of light is, as far as we know, impossible. To ignore this fact and simply imagine something can (as nice a thought as that is) doesn't make it a valuable source of info and any discussion that follows is pointless.

EDIT: Just noticed the dates on the OP. Thought it was all on the same convo then.