How Does Hydrogen Influence Modern Technology and Global Security?

[MR. P]

What response is evoked when you hear or read about Hydrogen?

Does it evoke fear? Hope? Threat? Opportunity?

I am an advocate of Hydrogen use and desire its' integration into our society. DaveC426913 has been kind enough to help mentor me in choosing the correct format to stimulate a discussion. This issue is extremely important to me and I hope that it will become important to you as well. So for the sake of enlightenment please help me, I am really interested in your knowledge and opinions .

 

[DaveC426913]

'... as an energy source...'

 

[<<<GUILLE>>>]

well, it is clear that nothing could be possible without hydrogen. it is the basic element. from it, all the rest are created. it is 2/3 of water (the 1/3 is oxygen(H2O)) which is the symbol and basic of life. it is the elemnt that occupies the biggest percentage of the universe's composition (does someone know the percentage? I think it was 75% or something...). it is basically the "Factor" element. I am also a "supporter" of hydogen. does someone know the meaning of the word hydrogen? (it comes from latin or greek, I think so...)

 

[infidel]

I think it means 'water maker.'

Anyhoo, I'm not sure of the thread's purpose...you want to discuss hydrogen as a fuel? In fuel cells, fusion, etc.?

I think it's a great idea if it can be made to work practically. Therein lies the rub, but I'm not up on the recent advances in that direction, so I'll be watching this thread to learn something about it.

 

[SpaceTiger]

well, it is clear that nothing could be possible without hydrogen. it is the basic element. from it, all the rest are created.

Eh, not quite. It is certainly the simplest and least massive element, but atoms are composed of electrons, protons, and neutrons. The difference between hydrogen and some other element is the number of protons. Hydrogen has only one proton.

it is the elemnt that occupies the biggest percentage of the universe's composition (does someone know the percentage? I think it was 75% or something...)

75% by mass, 90% by number.

 

[<<<GUILLE>>>]

Eh, not quite. It is certainly the simplest and least massive element, but atoms are composed of electrons, protons, and neutrons. The difference between hydrogen and some other element is the number of protons. Hydrogen has only one proton..

oooh. but I meant that in nuclear fusion that happens in stars, then it is when helium and hydrogen change their number of prot/neu/electrons becoming other, don't they? I have always thought that. If not, how are the other elements created? and I didn knwo that an element is defined by it's sub-atomic-particles number.

75% by mass, 90% by number.

thanks.

to the post on top of SpaceTiger's, I don't know who it is, but I think that if the auther wanted to discuss about hydrogen as a fuel, he wouldn't have put it in the value theory in philosophy, don't you think? I think we just should discuss about it in general.

 

[SpaceTiger]

oooh. but I meant that in nuclear fusion that happens in stars, then it is when helium and hydrogen change their number of prot/neu/electrons becoming other, don't they? I have always thought that. If not, how are the other elements created?

Sorta. Technically, the simplest fusion reactions involve collisions of protons, but protons are sometimes referred to as singly-ionized hydrogen. It's really semantic, mostly, the important thing is the structural differences between the atoms.

 

[hypnagogue]

So Mr. P, just to be clear, this discussion is about the ethics of using hydrogen as a source of energy? If so, perhaps you could give us more insight on your views about this matter?

 

[<<<GUILLE>>>]

Sorta. Technically, the simplest fusion reactions involve collisions of protons, but protons are sometimes referred to as singly-ionized hydrogen. It's really semantic, mostly, the important thing is the structural differences between the atoms.

thanks for explaining it to me.

 

[MR. P]

To all of you kindly giving your time to my enlightenment!

I believe hypnagogue Is quite correct regarding my post. That observation ,if for no other reason, is the first step, wether verbalized or intuitive, taken preceding action.

I believe 'informed' is a better prerequisite to action than 'ignorant'. A case in point Dave's opinion regarding the method for engaging discussion. Thank you davec4286913 .

<<<GUILLE>>> thank you for stimulating the repartee as well.

frank MR. P

 

[MR. P]

infidel I think you've probably hit on an area that needs defining.

Upon reflection. there is/are two ways to intrepret the 'idea' of hydrogen as a fuel:
1. From the nuclear standepoint a raw material to 'fuse'
2. From the chemical sense a 'recycleable' energy transport mechanism

Let me claraify that I use 'recycleable' in the environmental context keeping the definition within the format of this thread.




frank

 

[<<<GUILLE>>>]

Regarding hydrogen as a fuel,
is hydrogen nuclear power abailable now? even if it is, it would be negative to our enviroment, compeltely alike to fuel cell motors which only produce heat, water and electricity.

 

[MR. P]

<<<GUILLE>>>

No. Hydrogen as it now stands has not been able to sustain itself in fusion reactions.

I was trying unsuccessfully at making a comparison of the difference between Nuclear reactions (much more powerful) and chemical reactions.The type of recycling that I can readily Hydrogen in the context of a chemical reaction as in the formation of water provides an environmental recycling option that no ther compound offers. When .for example, we electrolyze water making h2 and o2 gasses essentially we are 'creating potential energy' or better said we are converting kinetic energy into potential energy aqssuming that the potential energy lies in the re-oxidation of hydrogen making water fromwhich it came.. An elegant mechanism for storing various enviromentally beigning sources of energy like photo cells , wind ,hydro for future use. etc.

 

[Pengwuino]

I think of cars and neutrons :D

 

[Reshma]

Hydrogen? It is one of the most common elements on earth. Most common element in the universe. Highly combustible because of its high calorific value. Used in fusion bombs. Has a great potential as an environmentally friendly fuel since hydrogen combustion gives water vapour as the end product. Few vehicles are running on hydrogen, but are at an experimental stage.

 

[cragwolf]

What response is evoked when you hear or read about Hydrogen?

Does it evoke fear? Hope? Threat? Opportunity?

Humdrum and ennui. It's everywhere. What, is 90% of the universe not enough? One piddly proton and one measly electron. Not even a neutron, bah! Odorless, colorless, tasteless. I mean, how boring can you get? So boring that it has to hang around oxygen to get any action. I say we get busy right away and start converting hydrogen into more interesting elements. Helium would be a good choice. Funny voices! That's reason enough!

 

[Reshma]

Hydrogen gas was partly responsible for the Hindenburg disaster. http://www.ciderpresspottery.com/ZLA/greatzeps/german/Hindenburg.html

 

[Astronuc]

I am an advocate of Hydrogen use and desire its' integration into our society.

Too bad you didn't use MR. H as a usename.

Quite simply hydogen is an element. It may be considered stored chemical energy in relation to H₂O, and in fact it is rather ubiquitous, as H in hydrocarbons, also a form of stored chemical energy.

One issue is whether H₂ can replace present days hydrocarbons (aka fossil fuels) as a principle energy storage medium, e.g. for transportation. Besides the technical issues of storage and material degradation, the main issues are economy and safety, which are themselves tied to the technical issues.

Hydrogen is used in a variety of industrial processes already, and there are furnaces which use cracked ammonia (2 NH₃ -> N₂ + 3 H₂) to provide a reducing atmosphere.

As for fusion, in stars (see threads on stellar nucleosynthesis, PP cycle or CNO cycle), the fusion of hydrogen (P) occurs under conditions not realized on earth.
http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/energy/cno-pp.html
http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/energy/cno.html
http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/energy/ppchain.html

Heavier light elements can be formed with fusion of ³He and ⁴He with Be or C, e.g.

³He + ⁷Be -> ¹⁰C

but more likely

⁴He + ⁷Li -> ¹¹B
⁴He + ⁷Be -> ¹¹C
⁴He + ⁹Be -> ¹²C + $_0^1n$
⁴He + ¹¹B -> ¹⁴C + p or ¹⁴N + $_0^1n$
⁴He + ¹²C -> ¹⁶O

Those type of reactions would produce C, N and O in the sun for instance, although once ¹²C is produced, then the CNO cycle can then develop.


Fusion, if it can be developed, would likely use the other hydrogen isotopes, deuterium, D (pn), and tritium, T (p2n). However, there are aneutronic reactions like p+⁷Li and p+¹¹B, which are difficult to achieve.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Hydrogen? Never heard of it.
The Hydrogen Economy

 

[Ivan Seeking]

This is a list of all good links to date - posted in the thread above and the parent thread:
A Hydrogen economy: Be a part of the change! https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=4127

Posted approximately in the order discussed:
[Please post a note if any links are bad.]

Scientific American Frontiers: Future Cars [Watch the video online]
http://www.pbs.org/saf/1403/index.html

Questions about a Hydrogen Economy; Scientific American
http://www.sciamdigital.com/browse....B9BE5E6-2B35-221B-6F2461DEF9B52B9C&sc=I100322

Office of Nuclear Energy, Science and Technology
U. S. Department of Energy
Nuclear Hydrogen Initiative Nuclear
http://www.nuclear.gov/infosheets/hydrogenfactmarch2003.pdf

The National Hydrogen Association
http://www.hydrogenus.com/

http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/hydrogen/iea/

http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html

http://education.lanl.gov/resources/h2/education.html

http://www.stuartenergy.com/

HYDROGEN AND THE MATERIALS OF A SUSTAINABLE ENERGY FUTURE
WORLD WIDE WEB SITE
Hosted by: Los Alamos National Laboratories
http://education.lanl.gov/resources/h2/education.html

International Energy Agency Hydrogen Program
http://www.ieahia.org/

Includes discussion of
BIOMASS TO H2
DIRECT PRODUCTION FROM WHOLE BIOMASS
Gasification
Thermal/Steam/Partial Oxidation
PRODUCTION OF STORABLE INTERMEDIATES FROM BIOMASS PARTIAL CONVERSION
Small scale reformer technologies
Photovoltaic cells plus an electrolyzer
Photoelectrochemical cells with one or more semiconductor electrodes
Photobiological systems
Photodegradation systems
Photoelectrolytic and Photobiological Production of Hydrogen

Case Studies of Integrated Hydrogen Energy Systems
http://www.ieahia.org/case_studies.html

Hydrogen by Catalytic Decomposition of Water [search "Hydrogen"]
http://www.netl.doe.gov/
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...,468,499.WKU.&OS=PN/6,468,499&RS=PN/6,468,499

Also at the site above: search Hydrogen
HYDROGEN FROM COAL
DENSE CERAMIC MEMBRANES FOR HYDROGEN SEPARATION

Hydrogen - The Department of Energy
http://www.energy.gov/engine/content.do?BT_CODE=ES_HYDROGEN
Time to Escape from the Grid: Wired Magazine
http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,60089,00.html

http://physicsweb.org/article/world/15/7/10/1

First two myths about renewable energy need to be dispelled
http://physicsweb.org/article/world/14/6/2/2

Fuel cells: environmental friend or foe?
http://physicsweb.org/article/news/7/6/10/1

More on fuel cells
http://physicsweb.org/article/world/11/7/2/1

Hydrogen Safety Facts
http://www.hydrogenus.com/H2-Safety-Fact-Sheet.pdf

Hydrogen at Home; The H2 Horizon: Re Iceland, which has gone H2 already
http://www.loe.org/ETS/organizations.php3?action=printContentItem&orgid=33&typeID=18&itemID=204&User_Session=63e33af74b5bc33216035afa351f1a58

Fuel from water [credibility of author unknown]
http://www.lindsaybks.com/bks/hydrogen/index.html

Gas Hydrages
http://www.fe.doe.gov/programs/oilgas/hydrates/
http://oceanusmag.whoi.edu/v42n2/whelan.html
http://woodshole.er.usgs.gov/project-pages/hydrates/who.html

The NHA's Hydrogen Commercialization Plan
http://www.hydrogenus.com/commercializationplan.asp

The NHA's Hydrogen Implementation Plan
http://www.hydrogenus.com/implementationplan.asp

Multi-step metal oxide cycles for solar-thermal water splitting"
http://www.colorado.edu/che/TeamWeimer/perkins.htm
http://www.pre.ethz.ch/cgi-bin/main.pl?research?project6

Solar Production Of Zinc: Concentrated solar energy is used as the source of process heat for the dissociation of zinc oxide
http://solar.web.psi.ch/daten/projekt/zno/roca/roca.html

Mechanical Engineering "Power & Energy," March 2004 -- "Packaging Sunlight," Feature Article
http://www.memagazine.org/pemar04/pckgsun/pckgsun.html

Analysis of Solar Thermochemical Water-Splitting Cycles for Hydrogen
http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cach...solar+furnace"+efficiency+cost+problems&hl=en

Concentrating Photovoltaics: Collaborative Opportunities within DOE’s CSP and PV Programs
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy02osti/31143.pdf

Rapid Solar-thermal Dissociation of Natural Gas in an Aerosol Flow Reactor
http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cach...solar+furnace"+efficiency+cost+problems&hl=en

1. Union of Concerned Scientists www.ucsusa.org.
2. American Methanol Institute www.methanol.org.
3. Fuel Cells 2000 www.fuelcells.org.
4. California Air Resources Board www.arb.ca.gov.
5. National Hydrogen Association www.hydrogenus.com.
6. Los Alamos National Laboratory (see below)
7. California Fuel Cell Partnership www.drivingthefuture.org.
8. The US Fuel Cell Council www.usfcc.com.
9. California Hydrogen Business Council www.ch2bc.org/

White House press release
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/02/20030206-2.html

Also, search "Hydrogen"
http://www.whitehouse.gov/

Fuel Cells
http://education.lanl.gov/resources/fuelcells/

Fues Cells coming of age
http://www.fuelcellstore.com/information/coming_of_age.html

Hydrogen Fuel Cell Cars: ecoworld article
http://www.ecoworld.com/Home/Articles2.cfm?TID=284

NASA Spaces on Energy Solutuion: Wired article
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,63913,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_1

DEVELOPING IMPROVED MATERIALS TO SUPPORT THE HYDROGEN ECONOMY
http://www.hydrogenus.com/EMTEC-EFC-RFP01A.pdf

International Association For Hydrogen Energy
http://www.iahe.org/

Sustained Photobiological Hydrogen Gas Production upon Reversible Inactivation of Oxygen Evolution in the Green Alga Chlamydomonas reinhardtii
http://www.plantphysiol.org/cgi/content/abstract/122/1/127

Hydrogen; Quick Facts
http://www.hydrogenus.com/hydrogen-basics.asp

Europositron technology: a private enterprise
http://www.europositron.com/en/background.html

Brayton Cycle engines
http://www.almturbine.com/

Hybrid Turbine Electric Vehicle
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/RT1996/6000/6920v.htm
http://search.grc.nasa.gov/query.ht...qm=0&st=1&nh=10&lk=1&rq=0&rf=0&tx=0&go=Search

UK company way ahead of the market in creating green hydrogen
http://search.grc.nasa.gov/query.ht...qm=0&st=1&nh=10&lk=1&rq=0&rf=0&tx=0&go=Search

Hydrogen Economy looks out of reach: Nature article
UK company way ahead of the market in creating green hydrogen[/URL]

Running On Thin Air
Iceland is making its dream of a hydrogen economy come true
http://www.time.com/time/europe/specials/ff/trip1/hydrogen.html

California Unveils State's First Hydrogen Refueling Station: News item
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200410/200410230010.html

Fusion reactor decision must wait: BBC report
[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3997249.stm[/url]

Hybrids vs. Hydrogen: Which Future Is Brighter?
[url]http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/Hybrid/story?id=266883&page=1[/url]

hydrogen from methanol
[url]http://www.nasatech.com/Briefs/Jun02/NPO19948.html[/url]

hydrogen from coal
[url]http://www.nuclear.com/Energy_policy/Coal_gas_news.html[/url]

hydrogen from nuclear power
http://www.businessreport.co.za/index.php?fSectionId=561&fArticleId=291054

hydrogen from sunlight
http://www.pureenergysystems.com/news/2004/09/14/6900043_Solar_Hydrogen/index.html

hydrogent from wind
http://evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=502

fuel cells
[url]http://www.spacedaily.com/news/energy-tech-03s.html[/url]

Technical issues of a hydrogen economy
http://books.nap.edu/books/0309091632/html/1.html#pagetop

[url]hydrogen from methanol
[url]http://www.nasatech.com/Briefs/Jun02/NPO19948.html[/url]

hydrogen from coal
[url]http://www.nuclear.com/Energy_policy/Coal_gas_news.html[/url]

hydrogen from nuclear power
http://www.businessreport.co.za/index.php?fSectionId=561&fArticleId=291054

hydrogen from sunlight
http://www.pureenergysystems.com/news/2004/09/14/6900043_Solar_Hydrogen/index.html

hydrogent from wind
http://evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=502

fuel cells
[url]http://www.spacedaily.com/news/energy-tech-03s.html[/url]

Technical issues of a hydrogen economy
http://books.nap.edu/books/0309091632/html/1.html#pagetop

Scientists develop new hydrogen reactor: CNN news item
http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/science/02/13/hydrogen.reactors.ap/

Ethanol and the Environment
http://www.ethanolrfa.org/factfic_envir.html
http://www.free-eco.org/articleDisplay.php?id=21
[url]http://www.ethanol-gec.org/corn_eth.htm#net[/url]
http://www.ncga.com/news/notd/2004/june/060904a.htm


A group of non-specific links from various poster:
[url]http://www.iogen.ca[/url]
[url]http://www.sheclabs.com[/url]
[url]http://www.ecologen.com/page_TSSOM2-75.html[/url]
[url]http://www.lanl.gov/worldview/news/releases/archive/04-076.shtml[/url]
[url]http://www.azonano.com/details.asp?articleID=1022[/url]
[url]http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1291187/posts[/url]
[url]http://www.forrelease.com/D20040519...3352.28636.html[/url]
http://groundstate.ca/node/68

Food, Energy, and Society [book]
[URL][/URL]

Hydrogen economy for a sustainable development:state-of-the-art and technological perspectives
[URL][/URL]

The Hydrogen Economy: Physics Today article
http://www.physicstoday.org/vol-57/iss-12/p39.html
http://www.physicstoday.org/vol-57/iss-12/PDF/vol57no12p39-45.pdf

The Hydrogen Economy: Opportunities, Costs, Barriers, and R&D Needs (2004)
http://www.nap.edu/books/0309091632/html/

Hydrogen Economy Offers Major Opportunities But Faces Considerable Hurdles
[URL]http://www4.nationalacademies.org/news.nsf/isbn/0309091632?OpenDocument[/URL]

Supercritical-Water-Cooled Reactor
[URL]http://energy.inel.gov/gen-iv/scwr.shtml[/URL]

Clean coal compendium and related articles:
http://www.netl.doe.gov/cctc
[URL]http://www.careenergy.com/news/articleview.asp?iArticle=7[/URL]
http://www.antenna.nl/wise/uranium/mdaf.html

Automobile Emissions Reduction Efforts in the U.S. - Chronology
[url]http://www.ehso.com/ehshome/auto-emissions_chronol.htm[/url]
[url]http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1223/p01s04-sten.html[/url]

Articles posted from Car and Driver
[url]http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article_id=2502&page_number=1[/url]
[url]http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article_id=3418&page_number=1[/url]
[url]http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article_id=3418&page_number=1[/url]
[url]http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article_id=3296&page_number=1[/url]
[url]http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article_id=4343&page_number=1[/url]

The Dirty Folly of "Clean Coal"
http://www.ems.org/energy_policy/clean_coal.html

Coal Combustion, Public Health and the Environment
http://www.ems.org/energy_policy/coal.html

Emissions of greenhouse gases
[URL]http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/1605/gg98rpt/emission.html[/URL]

More on nuclear options for Hydrogen
[URL]http://nuclear.gov/home/11-09-04.html[/URL]
[URL]https://www.pbmr.com/[/URL]
[URL]http://gt-mhr.ga.com/[/URL]
[URL]http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/nuclear/page/analysis/nucenviss2.html[/URL]
[URL]https://www.pbmr.com/3_pbmr_technical_info/pbmr_technical_contents.htm#PBMRFuel[/URL]

Spray-On Solar-Power Cells Are True Breakthrough
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/01/0114_050114_solarplastic.html

ASU researcher gets grant to explore new methods of hydrogen generation
[url]http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-01/asu-arg012005.php[/url]

Quantum Dots and Tunable Bandgap
[URL]http://www.evidenttech.com/applications/quantum-dot-solar-cells.php[/URL]
[url]http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=quantum+dots+Infrared+solar+cells[/url]

Hydrogen for residential combined heat and power
http://www.waterstof.org/20030725EHECO3-132.pdf

Oregon may lead future of wave energy: news alert
[url]http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-02/osu-oml020105.php[/url]

"Ethanol has the potential to be an integral part of the emerging hydrogen economy. Its properties make it an excellent liquid fuel for the extraction of hydrogen.
http://www.maui-tomorrow.org/issuespages/energy/ethanol_hydrogen.html

Hydrogen powered motorcycle: news item
[URL]http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_1321345.html?menu=[/URL]

T-Zero Electric Car [hot!]
http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero_pages/tzero_home.htm

Windmills in the Sky: Wired News item
http://www.wired.com/news/planet/0,2782,67121,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_2

Solar Tower of Power: Wired News item
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,66694,00.html

About H2 ICE: Internal Combustion Engines. They're here...
[url]https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=70653[/url]

H2 CARSBIZ
http://www.h2cars.biz/artman/publish/index.shtml

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Hydrogen gas was partly responsible for the Hindenburg disaster. http://www.ciderpresspottery.com/ZLA/greatzeps/german/Hindenburg.html

That information is out of date. It turns out that the only people killed by fire were burned by diesel fuel from the engines. The rest died because they jumped. So as strange as it may seem, H2 was not the culprit.

Careful investigation of the Hindenburg disaster verified the opinion of the engineers on the Hindenburg and proved that it was the flammable aluminum powder filled paint varnish that coated the infamous airship, not the hydrogen that started the fateful fire.

http://www.clean-air.org/hindenberg.htm

There is also video about this at The National Hydrogen Association.
http://www.hydrogenus.com/

 

[MR. P]

Hydrogen and alternatives

Astronuc...I found it interesting that 'to date' you have been the only respondent even mentioning ammonia NH3. This is quite a substance! I believe that time will yield ammonia as the primary mechanism for storing hydrogen. I don't have numbers or the math ability to quote you some believable numbers regarding energy density and ease of use. An intuitive evaluation leads me to believe that energy density of ammonia vs LH2 would be close but NH3 Would not involve as many parasitic losses as would be incurred with maintaining Hydrogen in a liquid state ie BMW's tentative approach. I don't believe handling or danger issues are greater regarding one over the other either however I have been wrong before...

 

[franznietzsche]

What response is evoked when you hear or read about Hydrogen?

Does it evoke fear? Hope? Threat? Opportunity?

I am an advocate of Hydrogen use and desire its' integration into our society. DaveC426913 has been kind enough to help mentor me in choosing the correct format to stimulate a discussion. This issue is extremely important to me and I hope that it will become important to you as well. So for the sake of enlightenment please help me, I am really interested in your knowledge and opinions .

Hydrogen?

Doesn't evoke much. Why should it? Its an element. Whoo-dee-doo.

Oh, I'm sorry, were you using BS marketing speak? I don't respond well to that...

 

[nmondal]

I do remember:--
1H1, 1D2, 1T3, 1H4 [Unstable]

The largest found element in the universe in ionised form, that is it.

 

[Peter.E]

That information is out of date. It turns out that the only people killed by fire were burned by diesel fuel from the engines. The rest died because they jumped. So as strange as it may seem, H2 was not the culprit.

But why did they jump?

I immediately think of "Hydrogen Bomb" and the Sun when someone asks "What is Hydrogen".

The Sun keeps us alive and the Hydrogen Bomb is designed to do the opposite.

 

[MR. P]

reshma I retrieved this responce from another source and found it an excellent responce to your understanding...


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edit: Wednesday April 13th, @11:38PM

"What Can We Learn from the Hindenburg Disaster?
The explosion of the luxury airship Hindenburg at Lakehurst, NJ, on May 6, 1937, serves as one of the most spectacular moments recorded by the media. Until very recently, it has aided in paralyzing the development of widespread hydrogen use as a fuel, due to concerns for safety (and viewing the fiery picture above, understandably so). But knowing the actual nature of the Hindenburg disaster, as well as knowing the behavior of hydrogen allows us to dispel this stigma associated with hydrogen.

The Facts on the Hindenburg Disaster:
1. The bags of hydrogen that provided the lifting force for the Hindenburg were NOT the main contributor to the fire. The surface of the ship was coated with a combination of dark iron oxide and reflective aluminum paint. These components are extremely flammable and burn at a tremendously energetic rate once ignited. The skin of the airship was ignited by electrical discharge from the clouds while docking during an electrical storm. This reaction has been proven chemically for years, and was demonstrated with actual remnants of the Hindenburg sixty years later, which burned as vigorously as on the day of the disaster.
2. The hydrogen burned quickly, safely, above the occupants. When the escaping hydrogen was ignited by the burning skin of the airship, it burned far above the airship, and was completely consumed within 60 seconds of the ignition. During this period of time, the airship descended to the ground from the 150-foot docking tower.
3. Almost all deaths were caused by jumping or falling from the airship. Of the 35 deaths from the disaster, 33 were caused by jumping or falling. Only two deaths were caused by burning, and it is likely that those two were from proximity to the burning skin of the airship, or from the stores of diesel fuel that were ignited by the covering. Whereas the hydrogen burned within one minute of ignition, the diesel fires burned for up to ten hours after the ignition.
4. The Hindenburg would have burned if it had been filled with inert helium gas. Even if the Hindenburg had not been lifted by hydrogen, the ignition of the covering would still have happened, and would then have set ablaze the diesel stores, resulting in the same disaster.
5. The main cause of the disaster was pilot error. The only way to prevent the disaster would have been if the pilot had chosen to land in better conditions elsewhere, which was very feasible, considering he had had enough fuel remaining to reach all the way to California.

The Nature of Hydrogen:

Hydrogen is less flammable than gasoline. The self-ignition temperature of hydrogen is 550 degrees Celsius. Gasoline varies from 228-501 degrees Celsius, depending on the grade. When the Hindenburg burned, it took some time before the hydrogen bags were ignited.
Hydrogen disperses quickly. Being the lightest element (fifteen times lighter than air), hydrogen rises and spreads out quickly in the atmosphere. So when a leak occurs, the hydrogen gas quickly becomes so sparse that it cannot burn. Even when ignited, hydrogen burns upward, and is quickly consumed, as shown in the Hindenburg picture. By contrast, materials such as gasoline and diesel vapors, as well as natural gas are heavier than air, and will not disperse, remaining a flammable threat for much longer.
Hydrogen is non-toxic. Hydrogen is a non-toxic, naturally-occurring element in the atmosphere. By comparison, all petroleum fuels are asphyxiants, and are poisonous to humans.
Hydrogen combustion produces only water. When pure hydrogen is burned in pure oxygen, only pure water is produced. Granted, that’s an ideal scenario, which doesn’t occur outside of laboratories and the space shuttle. In any case, when a hydrogen engine burns, it actually cleans the ambient air, by completing combustion of the unburned hydrocarbons that surround us. Compared with the toxic compounds (carbon monoxide, nitrogen oxides, and hydrogen sulfide) produced by petroleum fuels, the products of hydrogen burning are much safer.
Hydrogen can be stored safely. Tanks currently in use for storage of compressed hydrogen (similar to compressed natural gas tanks) have survived intact through testing by various means, including being shot with six rounds from a .357 magnum, detonating a stick of dynamite next to them, and subjecting them to fire at 1500 degrees F. Clearly, a typical gasoline tank wouldn’t survive a single one of these tests.
What Have We Learned?
No fuel we currently use or have yet to develop will be totally without hazards, through all the processes of production, transportation, and consumption, just as no kitchen knife can be used without risk to the chef. Hydrogen has long been considered close to ideal as a fuel due to its abundance, non-toxic characteristics, and international availability. We must recognize that each of us has learned to use knives safely, and do so daily. As long as we use wisdom in our methods of production, storage, and use of hydrogen, we’ll enjoy the same safety we have had with petroleum fuels, with the additional benefit of fewer health hazards when leaks do occur.
Sources
The following sources were used for this article:
Research by Addison Bain, NASA Investigator into the Hindenburg disaster.
McAlister, Roy. The Philosopher Mechanic.
Cox, Jack. "Will Hydrogen Bomb?" The Denver Post. April 5, 2000. "

»www.hydrogennow.org/Facts/Safety-1.htm




frank MR. P

 

[Astronuc]

The surface of the ship was coated with a combination of dark iron oxide and reflective aluminum paint. These components are extremely flammable and burn at a tremendously energetic rate once ignited. The skin of the airship was ignited by electrical discharge from the clouds while docking during an electrical storm. This reaction has been proven chemically for years, and was demonstrated with actual remnants of the Hindenburg sixty years later, which burned as vigorously as on the day of the disaster.

OUCH - This is the thermite reaction - http://www.ilpi.com/genchem/demo/thermite/ . It used often with steel alloy mixtures for making joints (joining segments of steel rail) in the field in the railroad industry, as opposed to arc welding.

It has also been used in incendiary bombs and shells - http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/sci/A0848440.html

 

[MR. P]

a better way

due to an urgent need I've been called awayI wanted to post this before leaving ...unedited...thank you


interestingly our German friends allowed the American Press' verion to go into the history books. I believe for, their, security reasons...The United States at the time was the primary and only source for Helium which was restricted for export to Germany ie. the Zeplin company desiging ships to utilize H2...the security issue came up when the reich's planners realized the devastating affect that an integrated 'derrigible' program would have when moving/transporting men and materials to the impending battle front...HOW PROFOUND...the human loss exacted by the germans u boats would have been rendered impotent if a 'blimp armada' were utilized instead of history's account only recently have I noticed that 'lighter than air' technology is making a comeback...and recognizing an impending paradigm shift I have applied for patents for the processes iterated in the following suppositions...fap

Here's a hypothetical:

Derrigibles during the war came under the auspices of the Navy but not much resource was directed in support of that activity and that section was decomissioned...if our strageic planners would se the light and understand the merrit of hybridizing our armed forces they would have a mix of Low Tech high availability technology that would far more efficient in fielding our forces to distant places''' for example if the United states had a 'derrigable Heavy lift Navy' for 'logistics purposes'
a magnetitude of order reduction in energy consumption for delivering armament etc to the staging areas could be realized! I you analyze the process now :

1. The government purchases 'stores' where the supplier handles it by loading onto trucks trains etc.
2. The government then unloads it moves it to storage (for future use) and tracks it
3. The government has a need and then removes from storage loads it onto trucks
trains etc and transports it to a recieving/staging area and unloads it and 'temp'
stores it
4. From the staging area the 'stuff is loaded onto vehicles or platforms that are then
loaded into ships or airplanes to be delivered 'close to the point of need and
unloaded into a staging area
5. the 'stuff' is then loaded onto the dispersing vehicle for distribution to the need
where it is finally utilized if lucky.
6. I heard a statistic quoting a logistics officer suggesting that 92% of items of need
in remote places is delivered within 9 days... stuff like tanks etc...and the
availability of the delivering apparatus is around 95%...
Those are commendable percentages, however, percentages are not hard numbers and when evaluating numbers with exponents like 6,7,or even 8 or 9 the tangeible quantity is signioficant not including the appreciating value every time a human touches or accounts for that item even items undelivered a process that adds value to 'nothing'.

I believe/know a more efficient delivery system has been ignored!

1. Allow the providers of goods to wearhouse the Governments' needs on the site where it is produced. allow the producer storage and accounting funds.
2. When the government has a need for various goods the government liaison manages the transport process by calling the 'derrigble Navy' out to pick up the 'standardized transport and dispersion' container and delivers the 'package directly to the point of consumption without furthur handling, the consumers are the last to touch the product!after delivery the derigible checks for returning loads. similar to or exactly like truckers already do. This approach to distribution would enhance the concept of 'just in time' delivery.

here's another hypothetical;

If the above existed the sunami of dec. could have

1. rescued more victims due to the 3d aspect of the system and its' inherent fuel efficiency and 'station keeping' abilities
2. transit time from point of source to point of consumption would have been measured in hours instead of days
3. victims in need of medical help would have been able to return on the resupply trip
4. disasters could eventually be termed mishaps or events
5. Society could exercise mastry over most naturally occurring phonomena


and the list goes on... musings by frank


frank MR> P