Gay in the sciences - notably Physics

[rbot2010]

Hello,

I thought about whether or not to post this thread as I wasn't sure if I would get flack for it. However, I noticed a thread involving the discussion of men and women dating. So, here's my post.

I was wondering if anyone in this forum is also gay and in the sciences, notably physics. In my time as a student of physics and mathematics, I've only met one other person who is in physics and gay. Well, he's more in astrophysics than physics, but he was studying physics at the time too. We dated for a year and half and are just friends now. Every guy that I've dated has thus far been lawyers, doctors, bankers, or has a career in something other than science. And all my gay friends are in the non-sciences. I have a few straight friends in the sciences. So, why should that matter? Honestly, it would be really nice to date a guy or even have gay friends who are also in the sciences (really shooting for someone in physics/astronomy or related). I'd be open to someone who is an engineer, but my preference is more for the pure sciences.

Being a gay guy doesn't mean that we only talk about the hot guy walking down the street, fashion, and all things campy. My gay friends and I will engage in discussions about politics, culture, law, music, art, and everything in between. However, the only thing I cannot seem to discuss with most of them is science, because they lack the background. I try to bring in a science topic and they cringe, even when I keep it to laymen terms.

Thus far I only know of another guy who is gay and a physicist (ahem, astrophysicist). As far as I know, I'm the only one in the program at my school (University of Illinois at Chicago - a very ethnically diverse school). I don't like the thought of being an anomaly. I suspect there must be others. I don't know if any straight people understand how lonely it really feels being gay and in the sciences, especially in physics. It's tough enough proving myself to my peers that I can work through a physics program.

I'm not asking anyone to out themselves on here. If you want to remain anonymous but still chat you can send me a private message. I'd be happy to hear from you. And I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts about this thread - gay, lesbian, bi, transgender, or straight. You all have a voice.

Thanks for reading through this long thread. I can get very passionate about the things on my mind - especially politics and science (the latter being my favorite).

 

[mathwonk]

I am a straight mathematician and for a long time I did not realize that several of my math friends were gay. We just did not discuss sexual preference, just math. Now that I know several are, I think I have noticed the happiest ones are possibly those who just said they were gay and let it hang out there. This is aparently much more feasible today than in the past. They may still be lonely socially but they do not seem to be. My feeling though is you will meet more friends by coming out at your own department than here.

Of course this is pretty ignorant speculation. good luck.

 

[Moonbear]

We do have a few members here who have openly discussed that they are gay or bisexual, and I'm sure they will chime in here if they wish to revisit that issue, so you're not alone by any means.

However, I have to wonder why you need to discuss science with gay friends? What does someone's sexual orientation have to do with your ability to talk science with them? Or is it more that you mean in terms of finding someone who shares your interests/enthusiasm for physics for a relationship beyond that of just friendship?

You may find yourself feeling less lonely if you just appreciate what different people have to bring to the table in terms of interests and conversations, and not require everything of everyone. It may also be the case that there are other gay men in your acquaintance, but they are not yet "out" about it, so you are not aware of their sexual preference.

I think you'll find that there is a very small percentage of the overall population with an aptitude for and interest in physics, so ANYONE is going to be a representation of a small group within the field if you start breaking it down by sexual orientation, gender, ethnicity, race, etc. Afterall, if you wander down to the local mall, how many other physicists do you bump into of any orientation?

 

[Evo]

My gay friends and I will engage in discussions about politics, culture, law, music, art, and everything in between. However,
the only thing I cannot seem to discuss with most of them is science, because they lack the background. I try to bring in a science topic and they cringe, even when I keep it to laymen terms.

I'm sorry, I just find this impossible to believe.

I don't know if any straight people understand how lonely it really feels being ay and in the sciences, especially in physics. It's tough enough proving myself to my peers that I can work through a physics program.

Most of my friends are gay and this doesn't sound true, unless you aren't doing well in school.

Perhaps you aren't in a country (western world) where gay people are mostly judged on their abilities.

 

[Werg22]

Perhaps you aren't in a country (western world) where gay people are mostly judged on their abilities.

Oh, so you believe in those kind of sad lies? I didn't know that.

Anyway, why do you (OP) insist to intermingle sexuality and profession? As far as I'm concerned one shouldn't speak of sexual matters in a work environment; all for the sake of transparency.

By the way, are you a member of the forum that does not want to divulge himself as a homosexual and has thus created an umbrella account for this purpose? Just wondering.

 

[mgb_phys]

I am a straight mathematician and for a long time I did not realize that several of my math friends were gay.

I know a few mathematicians who did not realize that their math friends were human

However, the only thing I cannot seem to discuss with most of them is science

Welcome to the new oppressed minority group of the 21st Century - people who underatand and care about science.

 

[Danger]

However, the only thing I cannot seem to discuss with most of them is science, because they lack the background. I try to bring in a science topic and they cringe, even when I keep it to laymen terms.

Other than the sexual orientation, I'm in the same situation. There are maybe half a dozen people in this entire town that I can discuss scientific matters with, and I haven't seen any of them in several years. As much as I love W, she thinks that everyone on PF is either a terrorist or a golddigger (as if I had any money). Every time that I post a sketch for a hovercraft or a toroid winding machine or a nutcracker, she says "Stop being so stupid. He'll just use that to blow up New York City." The sad thing is, she really believes that. Even sadder is that I occassionally have to disclose my opinion of her intellect in order to shut her up. (On the 'up' side, I got the brightest one in the family. Most of the rest have the mentality of somewhat backward 10-year-olds.)

 

[ank_gl]

Every time that I post a sketch for a hovercraft or a toroid winding machine or a nutcracker, she says "Stop being so stupid. He'll just use that to blow up New York City."

hahaha, now my hovercraft ll carry a nuclear bomb and destroy the city
remember you have a big role in it. you ll be screwed

 

[JohnDuck]

I think you'll find that there is a very small percentage of the overall population with an aptitude for and interest in physics, so ANYONE is going to be a representation of a small group within the field if you start breaking it down by sexual orientation, gender, ethnicity, race, etc. Afterall, if you wander down to the local mall, how many other physicists do you bump into of any orientation?

Moonbear takes the words right out of my mouth.

 

[oedipa maas]

In graduate school I became friends with a gay guy in astrophysics; the year I finished, another gay astro student arrived. So there are gay scientists out there! (and - good news for rbot - a lot of them seem to be in astro!)

My friend is now married to a guy with a background in an arts discipline and computer science... In any relationship - gay or straight - I think that people want their partners to value their interests and (especially in the sciences, where you never really stop thinking about what you're doing at work) understand their motivations and frustrations. I think this is why half of married female physicists are married to other physicists! I also think it's seen as more acceptable for men to keep their work lives out of their marriages, whereas women want their husbands to encourage and support them in their work.

Since the topic is on the table, I thought I'd share an interesting blog entry by a gay mathematics grad student who discusses the pros and cons of being out to the students he teaches:

http://www.koschei.net/blog/archives/000881.html#000881

 

[rbot2010]

In any relationship - gay or straight - I think that people want their partners to value their interests and (especially in the sciences, where you never really stop thinking about what you're doing at work) understand their motivations and frustrations.

Thank you Oedipas Maas. I think you're the one thus far who understood what I am saying and asking. Also, thank you for the blog link.

I think you're right. Astro is the way to go. In fact, I love astronomy and all things that deal with space science, so it's a well made match.

 

[rbot2010]

I am a straight mathematician and for a long time I did not realize that several of my math friends were gay. We just did not discuss sexual preference, just math. Now that I know several are, I think I have noticed the happiest ones are possibly those who just said they were gay and let it hang out there. This is aparently much more feasible today than in the past. They may still be lonely socially but they do not seem to be. My feeling though is you will meet more friends by coming out at your own department than here.

Thank you for sharing your perspective. The thing is, you probably didn't outright discuss sexual orientation, but it was done indirectly through body language or small comments. One can do that by a look at the opposite sex (or same sex) or just the slight mention of doing something with a girlfriend or boyfriend or having interest in a girl, etc. I have a lot of straight and gay friends who don't discuss anything to do with sex. But they'll put out there whether or not they are interested in a woman or guy just by mentioning someone in their lives, an interest in someone, or just that particular look of interest.

As for coming out, I'm very much out in my life. I do not hide it if someone asks nor do I tolerate when people make negative comments about the GLBT community while I'm standing around. As for in the department, I don't see this as the way to meet more friends. I'd say have a look at what oedipa maas has posted. This is where I'm coming from. I don't go around advertising that I'm gay at school or work. It is unprofessional and irrelevant. However, I do ask for the same equality that straight people have when they mention their spouse or girlfriend (or boyfriend).

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

I have a suspicion about gay people, call it anecdotal and unscientific, but I have had two people who were friends of mine and gay; one was employed as the departmental mathematician in a medical physics dept, and in a dept of, if not mathematicians but fairly proficient maths types, he was considered to be incredibly good. Another friend of mine studied physics and then did an MSc in thermodynamics of ice flows, before doing a PhD in maths, he's now an assistant lecturer at Cambridge, or was the last time I saw him 7 years ago, I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't a lecturer by now or even a professor. Is it just me or are gay people suspiciously good at maths?

OP: I've not heard of the bias towards straightness in the sciences, as far as I was aware the mix of sexuality was pretty much the same as in other academic groups, but I could be wrong?

 

[marlon]

I was wondering if anyone in this forum is also gay and in the sciences, notably physics.

I understand the "being into the physics" part but why are you also asking about the "being gay" topic ? What does that matter if all you want is having scientific discussions ?

I'd be open to someone who is an engineer, but my preference is more for the pure sciences.

Why ? How about an engineer that switched to pure sciences ?

No seriously, i really don't get the point of this post, sorry.

regards
marlon

 

[marlon]

Is it just me or are gay people suspiciously good at maths?

It's you. Just coincidence, nothing more.

Most people (gay or whatever) don't give a damn about any science.

marlon

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

It's you. Just coincidence, nothing more.

I know I wasn't really serious.

 

[deimors]

Hrmm... I can understand why gays in the maths and sciences wouldn't exactly want to let people know. Just look at what happened to Alan Turing.

 

[tacosareveryyum]

Since when does sexual preference have anything to do with pure science. Seriously, who cares if you are gay, straight, or bisexual. That is your own preference. Bringing this kind of stuff up in a work environment is a very bad idea.
Homosexuals are a minority no matter what occupation you are in.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

If I'm reading it correctly, then the OP is not in a work environment but rather at University? That environment is very liberal and there isn't likely to be any come back from telling people you are gay, at least in my neck of the woods. In fact one notable academic site in the UK makes your sexual preference part of your profile, and I'm pretty sure most people indicate their sexual preference and freely discuss it.

In the work place as well here, discrimination based on sexuality in any form is illegal, so if some sort of negative impact occurs you can resort to the law. Of course in the real world it's not always that easy, but I'd say in general at least, you are as unlikely to face discrimination in the work place about your sexuality as you are about your sex. And particularly not at University were it's even more frowned upon.

 

[JohnDuck]

Thank you Oedipas Maas. I think you're the one thus far who understood what I am saying and asking. Also, thank you for the blog link.

No, I think people understand exactly what you're saying--you want an SO who shares your interests in science. The fact is, that's hard to find even if you're straight.

 

[Moonbear]

Thank you Oedipas Maas. I think you're the one thus far who understood what I am saying and asking. Also, thank you for the blog link.

Well, then you probably face the same issues as men in physics who can't find enough women interested in the subject as partners. It's really no different than what anyone else wishes for, a partner who can appreciate and respect their interests. My only advice is don't limit yourself to physicists. Other scientists and professionals can appreciate and understand at least the sort of crazy lifestyle physicists endure (spending all hours of the night in the lab, for example). Wander over to the chemistry department or biology department and meet folks there. If you're looking for a long-term partner who shares an interest in the sciences, life will be a whole lot easier if you're in different fields than the same one anyway.

 

[oedipa maas]

Since when does sexual preference have anything to do with pure science. Seriously, who cares if you are gay, straight, or bisexual. That is your own preference. Bringing this kind of stuff up in a work environment is a very bad idea.
Homosexuals are a minority no matter what occupation you are in.

Sexual preference has nothing at all to do with pure science. But pure science is not done in a vacuum - it is done in a work environment in the company of people with whom you share a social relationship. People put pictures of their families on their desks and get phone calls from their spouses. They eat kosher and halal food. They go to the gym in the morning and they go to Bible study on Wednesday afternoons. It's inevitable (and healthy) that your officemates are going to know a little about your personal life.

Whether to explicitly tell your colleagues that you're homosexual or to just let them figure it out is another debate. I think it's good to let your colleagues know directly (yet casually) that you are gay. I think it makes for a more respectful and trusting atmosphere.

 

[Mk]

Oh, so you believe in those kind of sad lies? I didn't know that.

It depends on who you're around. At at nice university type place it would likely be the case, but in other places not as likely. Small town high schools, Catholic schools, and ones "in the hood" tend to be not so good (where "gay bashing" is not metaphorical) and in nice suburbs plenty of people can be openly gay without being beat up everyday after school.

 

[arildno]

I have a suspicion about gay people, call it anecdotal and unscientific, but I have had two people who were friends of mine and gay; one was employed as the departmental mathematician in a medical physics dept, and in a dept of, if not mathematicians but fairly proficient maths types, he was considered to be incredibly good. Another friend of mine studied physics and then did an MSc in thermodynamics of ice flows, before doing a PhD in maths, he's now an assistant lecturer at Cambridge, or was the last time I saw him 7 years ago, I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't a lecturer by now or even a professor. Is it just me or are gay people suspiciously good at maths?

OP: I've not heard of the bias towards straightness in the sciences, as far as I was aware the mix of sexuality was pretty much the same as in other academic groups, but I could be wrong?

To continue with the anecdotals:
I'd rather say that we're especially clumsy and technophobes, so that the only gayfolk you'll see in the hard sciences are those with a good theoretical bent. I wouldn't be surprised if there were relatively few gay engineers, although I met a handsome petroleum geologist once..

Kind of strange, really, when you think of all those engineering terms of nuts, bolts, screws and thrusts..

rbot:
I find the level of interest in the natural sciences among fellow gays to be about the same as among straights. Abysmally low. Face it, having a love and passion for the sciences is considered supremely nerdy among most people..

 

[ank_gl]

Face it, having a love and passion for the sciences is considered supremely nerdy among most people..

how true

 

[moonaysl]

hey! I'm a lesbian, and I'm a theoretical (astro)physicist. It happens :) By the way, there is a list of gay astronomers that can be found here: http://www.physics.ucsb.edu/~blaes/lgbtastro/

I also wanted to say that I'm really disappointed at how negative people were in their responses to this query. I understand as a woman of colour and a lesbian that it is nice to be able to identify in multiple ways with the people I share science with. I relish my annual trips to the joint meeting of the National Society of Black Physicists and the National Society of Hispanic Physicists.

As we all know, rarely do physics discussions stay on the topic of physics. Physicists, however awkward (!), are still social creatures. That means that who we are, not just our science, comes to the table with us. So of course one's sexual orientation might be relevant! As a professor I respect very much said to me recently, "Physicists like to pretend that they are just objective observers because they do physics, but in the end, they are still human, and that infects their work and behaviour." I have had to survive racist comments in my working environment, and I'm sure many gay people have had to survive homophobic comments. It's always nice to have another physicist there who understands what it's like to try and do physics and avoid getting distracted by these awful behaviours.

I got lucky ... I am a phd student at an extremely techy university, so almost all of my gay friends are scientists of one sort or another. A lot of mathematicians and geologists. And my girlfriend holds a degree in psychology with a minor in anthropology. The gay scientists are out there. Keep looking. And check out:http://www.noglstp.org/ (the national organization of gay and lesbian scientists and technical professionals).


By the way, thanks to the people who said supportive things :)

 

[ank_gl]

geez.. what does the interest in science have anything to do with sexual preference?? if i am interested in a topic and so is another person, i won't give it a damn what the other person's sexual preference is. why should i even think about it?? i am failing to understand why gay and lesbian people only want to interact with gay and lesbian physicists or engineers or whatever regarding their passion for science. why do you people even look at it that way?? for me, there is absolutely no relation between one's passion for science and his/her sexual preference.

 

[moonaysl]

I don't think anyone said that gay and lesbian scientists only want to interact with gay and lesbian scientists, only that it is nice when there are other gay and lesbian scientists with whom we share multiple interests/experiences.

I would hope that no one would discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation/identity in either direction. But that doesn't mean we can't be glad to be welcoming of people who are openly expressing who they are, whether it be through rainbow bracelets or a request to be called by female or male pronouns :)

 

[Werg22]

Why is being homosexual so important to you? Do you consider it part of your identity? I am heterosexual but I certainly do not consider this fact to be part of my identity. Why should it? Sexual preference has nothing to do with identity; in my opinion, identity comes from our higher capacities as human, sexuality is merely a part of our animal heritage.

 

[asafsuf]

Hi,
I really understand rbot2010 since being gay myself and a physics student.
I can also understand how straight people cannot understand what's the big deal (They never share these problems- they're 365 days a year out).
The big deal is that when you discuss sciences or work with someone it's easier and so much more relaxed to be 100% open about yourself and for gays it's always an issue.

Being with someone (spouse or a date)who is focused on sciences (Especially physics) is extremely helpful since he or she can understand the difficulties and the frustrations that come hand in hand with this profession as well as the intense passion.

Spouses as such don't come too often in the hetero form -needless to say that they are rarer in the homo form (As well as the fact that gays need to go through a mental bumpy road on their way to sciences-many give up or turn in early stages to other directions). That makes life even more frustrating.

In short- being a scientist or becoming one is tough and extremely lonely.
It truly helps if there's somebody really close who can understand and share that load.