- #1
harrylin
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I hope that a short discussion of the history of theoretical development is not too much off-topic here; this is a continuation of a discussion started under another, related topic:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=574624&page=2
The paper under discussion: Albert Einstein, "Über das Relativitätsprinzip und die aus demselben gezogene Folgerungen," Jahrbuch der Radioaktivitaet und Elektronik 4 (1907)
A photocopy of the original paper (in German) can be found online here:
http://www.soso.ch/wissen/hist/SRT/E-1907.pdf
There are also several English translations available:
- "On the relativity principle and the conclusions drawn from it," in The collected papers of Albert Einstein. Vol. 2 : The Swiss years: writings, 1900–1909 (Princeton University Press, Princeton, NJ, 1989), Anna Beck
- H. M. Schwartz, "Einstein's comprehenive 1907 essay on relativity", AJP 45, No.6 and No.9, 1977 (this is a discussion of the paper with an English translation by the author).
Basing myself on the photocopy of the original German document I found the first translation to be quite reliable in general, but the second translation (of which an apparently illegal copy can be found on internet) strikingly unreliable, despite its noble intentions. As a matter of fact, I searched for the original after I first read that translation and had doubts about its contents.
While I fully agree about Lorentz's adherence to the PoR, I don't agree with some other comments and I suspect that the disagreement is in part due to the misleading translation on which those comments are based. In particular, Schwartz has Einstein introduce the main part of his paper as follows:
How do unsuspecting readers understand that sentence? Perhaps such readers would tend to think that Einstein there sets out to combine a theory of Lorentz - perhaps the one of 1904 - with "the theory of relativity" - perhaps his own paper of 1905? However, smart readers might wonder why on Earth Einstein would want to do such a thing.
I will welcome confirmation of such a first interpretation, as that would help to stress how subtle errors can cause huge misunderstandings.
Also alternative interpretations (but please, not yet by those who are already better informed!) will be interesting.
More later.
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=574624&page=2
The paper under discussion: Albert Einstein, "Über das Relativitätsprinzip und die aus demselben gezogene Folgerungen," Jahrbuch der Radioaktivitaet und Elektronik 4 (1907)
A photocopy of the original paper (in German) can be found online here:
http://www.soso.ch/wissen/hist/SRT/E-1907.pdf
There are also several English translations available:
- "On the relativity principle and the conclusions drawn from it," in The collected papers of Albert Einstein. Vol. 2 : The Swiss years: writings, 1900–1909 (Princeton University Press, Princeton, NJ, 1989), Anna Beck
- H. M. Schwartz, "Einstein's comprehenive 1907 essay on relativity", AJP 45, No.6 and No.9, 1977 (this is a discussion of the paper with an English translation by the author).
Basing myself on the photocopy of the original German document I found the first translation to be quite reliable in general, but the second translation (of which an apparently illegal copy can be found on internet) strikingly unreliable, despite its noble intentions. As a matter of fact, I searched for the original after I first read that translation and had doubts about its contents.
ghwellsjr said:I'm only repeating what Einstein repeatedly says in all his papers, books, and talks.
For example, look at his [..] 1907 paper [English translation by Schwartz]:
He starts off describing how Newton's laws of physics retained their form under Galilean transformation which he specifically called "the principle of relativity". But then the Lorentz's laws of electrodynamics based on "a stationary immobile ether" put that principle in jeopardy because they did not transform intact. And so the search went out to locate the ether culminating in MMX which affirmed the principle of relativity but it had to be based on a different transformation which Lorentz came up with. The only difference between Lorentz's approach and Einstein's is that Lorentz derived the transformation after an experiment forced him to, whereas Einstein starts with the generalized principle of relativity and derives the transformation from a necessary consequence of applying the second postulate. And he specifically states that it is this second postulate that makes the difference between Lorentz's theory and his own theory of Special Relativity when he says:
' It required only the recognition that the auxiliary quantity introduced by H. A. Lorentz, and called by him "local time", can be defined as simply "time." '
This then leads to the statement that the ether "does not fit in" with his theory.
Poincaré, in his 1904 paper, also recounts under the heading of The Principle of Relativity, how Lorentz "valiantly defended" the principle of relativity by coming up with a new transformation.
Now I'm not saying that anyone but Einstein ever formally presented two postulates as the basis for a theory or even that Einstein was claiming that Lorentz had his own two postulates but the net result was the same as if he had and I think it is helpful to point this out.
[...]
Einstein traces that development in Lorentz's ether theory but he never stops calling it a theory different than his own or pointing out that it is his second postulate which make the difference as a starting point and the lack of an ether as an ending point. I count at least seven times in the first column of page 513 where Einstein refers specifically to Lorentz's 1904 theory and two of those times are in contrast to his own theory of relativity. He never claims that they are merely two interpretations of the same theory. In this and other papers, he always shows a contrast to Lorentz's ether theory as a result of his second postulate.
While I fully agree about Lorentz's adherence to the PoR, I don't agree with some other comments and I suspect that the disagreement is in part due to the misleading translation on which those comments are based. In particular, Schwartz has Einstein introduce the main part of his paper as follows:
In what follows it is endeavored to present an integrated survey of the investigations which have arisen to date from combining the theory of H. A. Lorentz and the theory of relativity.
How do unsuspecting readers understand that sentence? Perhaps such readers would tend to think that Einstein there sets out to combine a theory of Lorentz - perhaps the one of 1904 - with "the theory of relativity" - perhaps his own paper of 1905? However, smart readers might wonder why on Earth Einstein would want to do such a thing.
I will welcome confirmation of such a first interpretation, as that would help to stress how subtle errors can cause huge misunderstandings.
Also alternative interpretations (but please, not yet by those who are already better informed!) will be interesting.
More later.