Help make working with anesthetics safer

  • Thread starter Janet Hoff
  • Start date
In summary, the conversation discusses the use of isoflurane, a gas anesthetic commonly used in medical research with mice and rats. The problem lies in opening the box where the animals are anesthetized, as each time the box is opened, the gas escapes into the room. The person is seeking a solution to actively remove the gas from the box before opening it, and they are considering using a larger fan to create enough suction. The conversation also mentions potential risks associated with using oxygen in close proximity, such as fire hazards and toxicity. Possible solutions include using a fume hood or external exhaust line to safely vent the gas.
  • #1
Janet Hoff
2
0
Good day,

I work in medical research with mice and rats. My work often involves anesthetizing rodents with isoflurane (the same type of gas anesthetic that is used in human medicine). The animal is placed in a small box and isoflurane and oxygen is introduced to the box. In a short time the box is filled with enough gas to put the animal to sleep. The animal is removed from the box and his nose placed in a cone where isoflurane and oxygen are delivered at a controlled rate. The problem lies in opening the box. Each time the box it opened, isoflurane escapes into the room. Typically, animals are anesthetized in groups, so the exposure can become dangerous.

At this time, there is nothing on the market that removes the gas actively from the box before opening the lid. I would like to come up with something, for myself and others who are in this situation.

The box is either 4 x 4 x 4 for mice or 8 x 4 x 4 for rats, has two one inch openings, one where the gas and oxygen is introduced and the other where the gas (passively) is removed and collected into a canister containing activated charcoal. I have purchased a 1 inch (computer) fan and placed it in line between the box and the canister to provide some suction, but it's not quite strong enough.

I have ordered a larger, 4 inch fan, that is used in duct work.

Do you think a larger fan will provide the force needed to help remove the gas from the box?

Will it add pressure to the flow when I change the dimention of the line (starting at the 1 inch connection on the box, building to the 4 inch fan, then narrowing again to the other 1 inch connection (to the charcold filter).

Do you anticipate any fire hazards when working around oxygen this closely?

Thanks in advance.

jhLVT
 
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #2
Can you open the box under a fume hood? Either a full chemical lab type or just a simple extractor fan that vents to the outside air.

100% O2 is a fire risk, especially if it is allowed in contact with materials for a long time - clothes can become saturated with it and very difficult to extinguish if they catch fire. However small flow rates of O2 in a room with a regular atmosphere aren't likely to build up high concentrations.
This is one of the reasons that "Oxygen" cylinders used in aircraft and most non-medical breathing gas uses are only 80% O2, the other reason is that prolonged breathing of 100% O2 is toxic.
 
  • #3
Janet Hoff wrote:
>
> Good day,
>
> I work in medical research with mice and rats. My work often involves
> anesthetizing rodents with isoflurane (the same type of gas anesthetic
> that is used in human medicine). The animal is placed in a small box
> and isoflurane and oxygen is introduced to the box. In a short time
> the box is filled with enough gas to put the animal to sleep. The
> animal is removed from the box and his nose placed in a cone where
> isoflurane and oxygen are delivered at a controlled rate. The problem
> lies in opening the box. Each time the box it opened, isoflurane
> escapes into the room. Typically, animals are anesthetized in groups,
> so the exposure can become dangerous.
>
> At this time, there is nothing on the market that removes the gas
> actively from the box before opening the lid. I would like to come up
> with something, for myself and others who are in this situation.
>
> The box is either 4 x 4 x 4 for mice or 8 x 4 x 4 for rats, has two one
> inch openings, one where the gas and oxygen is introduced and the other
> where the gas (passively) is removed and collected into a canister
> containing activated charcoal. I have purchased a 1 inch (computer)
> fan and placed it in line between the box and the canister to provide
> some suction, but it's not quite strong enough.
>
> I have ordered a larger, 4 inch fan, that is used in duct work.
>
> Do you think a larger fan will provide the force needed to help remove
> the gas from the box?
>
> Will it add pressure to the flow when I change the dimention of the
> line (starting at the 1 inch connection on the box, building to the 4
> inch fan, then narrowing again to the other 1 inch connection (to the
> charcold filter).
>
> Do you anticipate any fire hazards when working around oxygen this
> closely?


Isoflurane is hepatotoxic. Chronic exposure is inadvisable. The best
idea is to vent the box into a dump line by flushing with plain or
enriched air. Ptherwise, open and vent in a laminar flow hood with an
external exhaust line. Isoflurane (mw = 184.5) 2% in oxygen is 1.2X
the density of air. Suck the fumes down and out. Second best is a
fume hood with external exhaust. Charcoal scrubbing is notoriously
unreliable starting 24 hrs after the seal is breached - and a really
bad idea in enriched oxygen.

Oxygen above 30% concentration is a flammability hazard. Always use
oxygen-certified hardware and lines for 100% oxygen. Dilute dumps
with airflow. Tygon tubing conducting oxygen burns like a fuse.

--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/lajos.htm#a2
 
  • #4
Janet Hoff wrote:

> Good day,
>
> I work in medical research with mice and rats. My work often involves
> anesthetizing rodents with isoflurane (the same type of gas anesthetic
> that is used in human medicine). The animal is placed in a small box
> and isoflurane and oxygen is introduced to the box. In a short time
> the box is filled with enough gas to put the animal to sleep. The
> animal is removed from the box and his nose placed in a cone where
> isoflurane and oxygen are delivered at a controlled rate. The problem
> lies in opening the box. Each time the box it opened, isoflurane
> escapes into the room. Typically, animals are anesthetized in groups,
> so the exposure can become dangerous.

<snip>

I second Uncle Al's recommendations, and I'll add a couple other
suggestions. First, a purge with dry air instead of pure O2 is highly
desireable. Second, what about connecting the outflow to a vacuum line?
We have "house vacuum" ports in the wall and you may be able to simply
purge into that with plastic valves and tubing: I would avoid all moving
metal + electrical parts around O2.

--
Andrew Resnick, Ph.D.
Department of Physiology and Biophysics
Case Western Reserve University
 
  • #5
Thanks for the replies.

Looking around on the internet, I found this nifty vaccum: http://www.mini-vac.com/instructions.html [Broken]

I was thinking of getting two of these small vacuums, and use one as a blower to push fresh air into the box by placing it, in line, between the fresh gas/oxygen supply and the box, then using a second Mini vac to create a vacuum in line with the activated charcoal (waist gas collection canister). I don't know of any alternatives to the activated charcoal for portable waist gas collection, any ideas?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #6
"Janet Hoff" <Janet.Hoff.2q9e68@physicsforums.com> wrote in message
news:Janet.Hoff.2q9e68@physicsforums.com...
>
> Good day,
>
> I work in medical research with mice and rats. My work often involves
> anesthetizing rodents with isoflurane (the same type of gas anesthetic
> that is used in human medicine). The animal is placed in a small box
> and isoflurane and oxygen is introduced to the box. In a short time
> the box is filled with enough gas to put the animal to sleep. The
> animal is removed from the box and his nose placed in a cone where
> isoflurane and oxygen are delivered at a controlled rate. The problem
> lies in opening the box. Each time the box it opened, isoflurane
> escapes into the room. Typically, animals are anesthetized in groups,
> so the exposure can become dangerous.
>
> At this time, there is nothing on the market that removes the gas
> actively from the box before opening the lid. I would like to come up
> with something, for myself and others who are in this situation.
>
> The box is either 4 x 4 x 4 for mice or 8 x 4 x 4 for rats, has two one
> inch openings, one where the gas and oxygen is introduced and the other
> where the gas (passively) is removed and collected into a canister
> containing activated charcoal. I have purchased a 1 inch (computer)
> fan and placed it in line between the box and the canister to provide
> some suction, but it's not quite strong enough.
>
> I have ordered a larger, 4 inch fan, that is used in duct work.
>
> Do you think a larger fan will provide the force needed to help remove
> the gas from the box?
>
> Will it add pressure to the flow when I change the dimention of the
> line (starting at the 1 inch connection on the box, building to the 4
> inch fan, then narrowing again to the other 1 inch connection (to the
> charcold filter).
>
> Do you anticipate any fire hazards when working around oxygen this
> closely?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> jhLVT
>
>
> --
> Janet Hoff
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Janet Hoff's Profile:
> https://www.physicsforums.com/forums/member.php?action=getinfo&userid=77661 [Broken]
> View this thread: https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=169207
>

I would suggest using an aspirator water jet (vacuum)pump, available for
some few bucks. However, made of plastic (Cole-Palmer Catalog). Some problem
could be with the removal of that anesthetic, unless it is vater soluble.
Tubing for oxygen is common in welding applications (oxy-acetylene).
Cole-Palmer catalog lists several systems, which seem to be designed for
purpose similar to yours. However, they cost several hundred dolars, at
least.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #7
Thanks for the replies.

Looking around on the internet, I found this nifty vaccum:
http://tinyurl.com/yua9zo [Broken]

I was thinking of getting two of these small vacuums, and use one as a
blower to push fresh air into the box by placing it, in line, between
the fresh gas/oxygen supply and the box, then using a second Mini vac
to create a vacuum in line with the activated charcoal (waist gas
collection canister). I don't know of any alternatives to the
activated charcoal for portable waist gas collection, any ideas?

--
Janet Hoff
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Janet Hoff's Profile: https://www.physicsforums.com/forums/member.php?action=getinfo&userid=77661 [Broken]
View this thread: https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=169207
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #8
If you ever expect your lab to pass a safety inspection, you must use
oxygen-certified equipment in oxygen lines. Such plastic parts in an
oxygen line are just looking to create a huge fire.

Newsgroups like this are COMPLETELY UNSUITABLE for such investigations.
You need to consult with experts on handling oxygen. Your lab OUGHT to
have a safety officer or similar person. Attempting to do this yourself,
with your obvious inexperience, is just asking for trouble.

GET SOME EXPERT HELP!Tom Roberts
Janet Hoff wrote:
> Thanks for the replies.
>
> Looking around on the internet, I found this nifty vaccum:
> http://tinyurl.com/yua9zo [Broken]
>
> I was thinking of getting two of these small vacuums, and use one as a
> blower to push fresh air into the box by placing it, in line, between
> the fresh gas/oxygen supply and the box, then using a second Mini vac
> to create a vacuum in line with the activated charcoal (waist gas
> collection canister). I don't know of any alternatives to the
> activated charcoal for portable waist gas collection, any ideas?
>
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #9
Janet Hoff <Janet.Hoff.2qgsu2@physicsforums.com> wrote in
news:Janet.Hoff.2qgsu2@physicsforums.com:

> Thanks for the replies.
>
> Looking around on the internet, I found this nifty vaccum:
> http://tinyurl.com/yua9zo [Broken]
>
> I was thinking of getting two of these small vacuums, and use one as a
> blower to push fresh air into the box by placing it, in line, between
> the fresh gas/oxygen supply and the box, then using a second Mini vac
> to create a vacuum in line with the activated charcoal (waist gas
> collection canister). I don't know of any alternatives to the
> activated charcoal for portable waist gas collection, any ideas?


Have you considered doing things in a glove box?
Pass the animal in and out through an airlock.

There are even some inexpensive 'disposable' plastic glove boxes available
now days.
--
bz

please pardon my infinite ignorance, the set-of-things-I-do-not-know is an
infinite set.

bz+spr@ch100-5.chem.lsu.edu remove ch100-5 to avoid spam trap
 
Last edited by a moderator:

1. What are the risks associated with working with anesthetics?

Working with anesthetics can pose several risks, including respiratory depression, cardiovascular complications, and allergic reactions. Additionally, long-term exposure to anesthetics has been linked to neurological and reproductive disorders.

2. How can we make working with anesthetics safer?

There are several steps that can be taken to make working with anesthetics safer. These include proper training and education for healthcare professionals, implementing safety protocols and guidelines, and using advanced technology to monitor patients' vital signs during anesthesia administration.

3. Is there a way to reduce the potential for adverse reactions to anesthetics?

While it is not possible to completely eliminate the risk of adverse reactions, there are measures that can be taken to reduce their likelihood. This includes conducting thorough patient assessments before administering anesthesia, using the appropriate dosage and anesthesia type for each patient, and closely monitoring patients throughout the procedure.

4. Can we improve the safety of anesthetics for patients with pre-existing conditions?

Yes, there are ways to improve the safety of anesthetics for patients with pre-existing conditions. This includes carefully reviewing the patient's medical history and adjusting the anesthesia plan accordingly, as well as closely monitoring patients with conditions such as heart disease or respiratory disorders.

5. What are the long-term effects of exposure to anesthetics for healthcare professionals?

The long-term effects of exposure to anesthetics for healthcare professionals are still being studied. However, research has shown that repeated exposure to certain types of anesthetics may increase the risk of developing certain health conditions, such as cognitive impairment and reproductive disorders. Proper safety measures and protective equipment should be used to minimize these risks.

Similar threads

  • Sci-Fi Writing and World Building
Replies
6
Views
2K
Replies
16
Views
2K
  • Biology and Chemistry Homework Help
Replies
4
Views
2K
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • Biology and Chemistry Homework Help
Replies
4
Views
4K
  • MATLAB, Maple, Mathematica, LaTeX
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • STEM Academic Advising
Replies
27
Views
4K
  • General Discussion
Replies
4
Views
7K
  • MATLAB, Maple, Mathematica, LaTeX
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • MATLAB, Maple, Mathematica, LaTeX
Replies
9
Views
2K
Back
Top