Will Israel's Strikes Escalate to Full-Scale War?

[Yonoz]

I am trying to get your claims straight, I asked, you responded, and I asked for clarifcation:

So please, it is up to you to set your claim straight or admit that Israel did not peruse reasonable means before resorting to war.

Israel is demanding Hizbullah be disarmed, it can continue its presence in Lebanon, just not as a paramilitary force. I showed you a UN security council report that states Israel keeps the UNSC informed on every violation of UNSC 1559, which demands Lebanon take control of the south and disarm Hizbullah.

I am fairly familiar with the Geneva Conventions, what potions of it are you claiming to be sighting here?

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/07/17/lebano13748.htm"

The mere fact that an object has civilian uses does not necessarily render it immune from attack. It, too, can be targeted if it makes an “effective” contribution to the enemy’s military activities and its destruction, capture or neutralization offers a “definite military advantage” to the attacking side. However, such “dual use” objects might also be protected by the principle of proportionality, described below.
Like airports, roads and bridges may be dual-use targets if actually used for military purposes. Even then, the same rule applies requiring the parties to the conflict to weigh carefully the impact on civilians against the military advantage served; they must consider all ways of minimizing the impact on civilians; and they should not undertake attacks if the civilian harm outweighs the definite military advantage. Human Rights Watch has not yet done the field research that would enable the organization to assess the legitimacy of Israeli attacks on Lebanese roads and bridges, but among the factors to be considered are whether the destruction of particular roads or bridges serve in fact to impede military transport in light of readily alternative routes – that is, whether the infrastructure attacked is making an “effective” contribution to Hezbollah’s military action and its destruction offers a “definite military advantage” – or whether its destruction seems aimed more at inconveniencing the civilian population and even preventing it from fleeing the fighting and seeking safety.

I'm pointing out the fact that Israel has continuously denied the Palestinians rights by occupying and colonizing their land.

Let us suppose that this really was the reason for this conflict - where are your proportions now? Does building settlements justify the carnage the Muslim world has brought upon Israel? Did the violence start when Israel started building settlements?

 

[Yonoz]

more political BS, you don't work for the Israeli governement by any chance? No, thank god for that :)

How amusing.

I will say only one thing, no one outside of Israel is buying any of that, and saying if a people don't declare themselves a state they don't own the land is like claiming that all the non European countries England conquered had no right to claim their land back because they had not declarded themselves a state, sorry India you can't have your coutnry back you weren't a state? Never mind, I thought I'd made this clear but it isn't obvious to you still.

It's good to know you speak for everyone outside of Israel.
The English have a home called England. The Indians have a home called India. The Jewish people's home is Israel. I hope you get the difference between Britain colonizing India and Israel conquering the occupied territories off Arab countries.

You need to accept the idea that everyone outside of Israel thinks that Palestine belonged to the Palestinians or Arabs who lived there before 1890 when you were but 5% of the population, when you turned up you took the land, or rather were gifted it, it already belonged to someone else OK, you sound like that raccist I quoted at the End there in that you believe these people didn't exist and that you moved into a ghostland, saying they weren't a state is essentially saying they were worthless and you had no need to honour there right to their land, and it's very derrogatory language.

I don't see how it's derogatory, it's an historical fact the ancestors of today's Palestinians were always subjects of other countries. Never did I say they did not exist nor did I say Jews moved into a "ghostland". Saying there was no Palestinian state does not essentially mean they were worthless and no one needed to honor their right to the land. The UN partition plan was accepted by the Jewish leadership and it called for the formation of a Palestinian state alongside Israel - is that not honouring their right to the land? It is the Palestinians that forgave their right for self-rule when their leaders chose they'll remain subjects of Arab countries. Why should we pay for their mistakes.

We don't buy it, hell does anyone in good moral conscience?

That's great because I am not selling it.

You signed up to the partition plan they didn't, that still means you have to honour it, it was an agreement with the UN as well you know, they signed too, you broke your word to them?

Nope, the State of Israel was declared in full accordance with the partition plan and the Arab nations, certain they could crush it, declared war and attacked it the next morning, from then on it was war. Then came the six day war in which the occupied territories were taken from the Arab countries.

You can spin history however you like, your kidding only yourself with rhetoric like that. I'm not partial to one side or the other but your one sided logic, smacks of condecension, I hope this sort of weaseling isn't typical amongst Israelis, surely you can see that this sort of ideology can lead only to descriminatory thought, you should start being more rational about your history and a little less one sided, probably not easy, may be impossible, but denying people rights because you don't acknowledge they have any isn't considered a civil way to behave.

That is your opinion, and it is my opinion that you are partial, one-sided, spinning history, condescending and too self-assured for someone so terribly uninformed. Please stop your personal assault as I'm trying to conduct a meaningful discussion here.

 

[kyleb]

Israel is demanding Hizbullah be disarmed, it can continue its presence in Lebanon, just not as a paramilitary force. I showed you a UN security council report that states Israel keeps the UNSC informed on every violation of UNSC 1559, which demands Lebanon take control of the south and disarm Hizbullah.

I understand the terms of UNSC 1559 and I understand that Israel has complained that those terms had not been meant, what I don't see is any reasonable effort by Israel to put a plan into action which would have resolved the problem prior to this war.

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/07/17/lebano13748.htm"

Like airports, roads and bridges may be dual-use targets if actually used for military purposes.

That is the restriction on the rights you claim which I am taking issue with.

Let us suppose that this really was the reason for this conflict - where are your proportions now? Does building settlements justify the carnage the Muslim world has brought upon Israel? Did the violence start when Israel started building settlements?

Before we can reasonably discuss the history and arguments you bring up I need you acknowledge the fact that Israel has continuously denied the Palestinians rights by occupying and colonizing their land for nearly 40 years. Can you do that?

 

[Bystander]

I understand the terms of UNSC 1559 and I understand that Israel has complained that those terms had not been meant, what I don't see is any reasonable effort by Israel to put a plan into action which would have resolved the problem prior to this war.

That's Lebanon's and the UN's problem, not that of the Israelis.

That is the restriction on the rights you claim which I am taking issue with.


Before we can reasonably discuss the history and arguments you bring up I need you acknowledge the fact that Israel has continuously denied the Palestinians rights by occupying and colonizing their land for nearly 40 years. Can you do that?

War is not a video game --- it's "played for keeps." You start a war, you risk losing everything. This isn't too terribly well understood in that part of the world. "Running to mama" (the UN) and crying about the "big bullie" who took your marbles after you tried to steal his doesn't cut it.

 

[Yonoz]

I understand the terms of UNSC 1559 and I understand that Israel has complained that those terms had not been meant, what I don't see is any reasonable effort by Israel to put a plan into action which would have resolved the problem prior to this war.

Can you suggest such a plan?

That is the restriction on the rights you claim which I am taking issue with.

Hizbullah uses rocket launchers mounted on trucks and regular trucks to supply its activists with rockets to be launched on Israel. Hizbullah stores many of these weapons in the Beq'a valley, Beirut area and Tyre. Iran supplies it with weapons via the Beirut airport and Syria. Israeli soldiers were kidnapped from the border and there's a obvious risk they'll be transported to more remote locations in Lebanon and possibly other countries. This means the bridges and roads are legitimate targets for this campaign, and it's quite clear from the article I linked to - I'm surprised you require me to explain it further.

Before we can reasonably discuss the history and arguments you bring up I need you acknowledge the fact that Israel has continuously denied the Palestinians rights by occupying and colonizing their land for nearly 40 years. Can you do that?

I disagree with the colonization claim.

 

[kyleb]

Can you suggest such a plan?

It's a bit late now for what I was asking for there. But at this point, call off attacks and the impending ground invasion and let NATO forces take over would be my plan, and the Europeans seem interested in doing so as well.

Hizbullah uses rocket launchers mounted on trucks and regular trucks to supply its activists with rockets to be launched on Israel. Hizbullah stores many of these weapons in the Beq'a valley, Beirut area and Tyre. Iran supplies it with weapons via the Beirut airport and Syria. Israeli soldiers were kidnapped from the border and there's a obvious risk they'll be tranported to more remote locations in Lebanon and possibly other countries. This means the bridges and roads are legitimate targets for this campaign, and it's quite clear from the article I linked to - I'm surprised you require me to explain it further.

The difference being what could be used and what actually has been used for military purposes.

I disagree with the colonization claim.

And by what reason do you dispute my use of the term 'colonization' to refer to the continental building of Israeli settlements on Palestinian land?

 

[kyleb]

That's Lebanon's and the UN's problem, not that of the Israelis.

If it wasn't Israels problem, they would be there now.

War is not a video game --- it's "played for keeps." You start a war, you risk losing everything. This isn't too terribly well understood in that part of the world. "Running to mama" (the UN) and crying about the "big bullie" who took your marbles after you tried to steal his doesn't cut it.

Sounds like you are the one taking about a video game, I'm talking about real people, many of whom weren't even born yet when this started.

 

[Yonoz]

It's a bit late now for what I was asking for there. But at this point, call off attacks and the impending ground invasion and let NATO forces take over would be my plan, and the Europeans seem interested in doing so as well.

They "seem interested"? Do you honestly think NATO would be able to disarm Hizbullah, considering the necessities I listed earlier? Do you think Iran and Syria would let Hizbullah be disarmed by NATO forces? Get real.

The difference being what could be used and what actually has been used for military purposes.

We've waited enough for Hizbullah's weapons to be used. Feel free to file suit to the international court if you think it's unlawful.

And by what reason do you dispute my use of the term 'colonization' to refer to the continental building of Israeli settlements on Palestinian land?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonisation" (or colonization) is the act where life forms move into a distant area where their kind is sparse or not yet existing at all and set up new settlements in the area.

You may notice the west bank is not at all distant from the pre-war borders. The British colonised India, the French colonised Viet-Nam and Cambodia.

 

[Anttech]

They "seem interested"? Do you honestly think NATO would be able to disarm Hizbullah, considering the necessities I listed earlier? Do you think Iran and Syria would let Hizbullah be disarmed by NATO forces? Get real.

Well to be frank, the full force of NATO could Dissarm Israel, so within the context of an iron fist (Which is what you *seem* to think is the answer) NATO could disarm Hezbullah. BUT deploying NATO to the situation wouldn't be about an iron fist, it would be about allowing space and time to solve this crisis with less civilan casualties, and less destroying of Lebanon. Perhaps even NATO would be able to undermine Hezbollah with a lot less destruction and stiring of future hatred, than this current bomb the sh!t out of beruit that is going on.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

That is your opinion, and it is my opinion that you are partial, one-sided, spinning history, condescending and too self-assured for someone so terribly uninformed. Please stop your personal assault as I'm trying to conduct a meaningful discussion here.

Trying and failing believe me, this is a website dominated by the US posters and you'll find little argument amongst them, I'm prodding you for good reason I want to see your justifications, if it's the same old same old we've heard before as it seems to be, then to me, your just reiterating what all of us have heard already, if you want good debate, think for yourself, don't try and bring tired rhetoric to a modern discussion and I won't prod you. What do you think? Don't tell me what the consensus of your mates is or what you've been told to think, tell me what you understand about the situation, question your media: I do, I think it's biased crap half the time, I look into Israeli sources.

Do me a favour go through all my posts and tell me where exactly my history is wrong, when I'm talking about this crisis you refer to the past, when I'm talking about the past you refer to this crisis, your disengenuous. If you want a real dialogue stop trying to rewrite history in your favour, it might help. If you don't want a good discussion, then let all the fine posters pat you on the back, if that's what you want, so be it.

 

[kyleb]

They "seem interested"? Do you honestly think NATO would be able to disarm Hizbullah, considering the necessities I listed earlier? Do you think Iran and Syria would let Hizbullah be disarmed by NATO forces? Get real.

If I did think so I would have said so. Do you think Syria would be less happy with NATO handling this compared to the IDF contuning themselves?

We've waited enough for Hizbullah's weapons to be used. Feel free to file suit to the international court if you think it's unlawful.

Note that alll the waiting you did is one of the things I've been taking issue with here.

You may notice the west bank is not at all distant from the pre-war borders. The British colonised India, the French colonised Viet-Nam and Cambodia.

The planting flags on hilltops and building there is what strikes the image of colonisation to me, but do I agree with your distance argument refuting my use of the term. So, in respect to that; can you acknowledge the fact that Israel has continuously denied the Palestinians rights by occupying and settling on their land for nearly 40 years.

 

[Hurkyl]

The word Turk refers to the Turkish people not the Turkic people. The word Turkic refers to Turkic people. ;)

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Turk
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/turk

I never realized how much forsight people back then had, coming up with words to refer to people living in a country that didn't even exist yet.

Which ones would those be? Qualifiy your statement with a few examples please.

"Alright" meaning, after the carpet bombing everyone was happy and the ecconomy was boombing. Or Alright in the sense that the country was still there.

I was thinking France, Western Germany, Britain, and Japan. Obviously they weren't better off than they were before the war, but neither were they irreparably harmed.

 

[Yonoz]

Trying and failing believe me, this is a website dominated by the US posters and you'll find little argument amongst them, I'm prodding you for good reason I want to see your justifications, if it's the same old same old we've heard before as it seems to be, then to me, your just reiterating what all of us have heard already, if you want good debate, think for yourself, don't try and bring tired rhetoric to a modern discussion and I won't prod you.

It may be "tired rhetoric" to you, but it's grim daily reality for us here. You're accusing me of spinning history but you don't seem to realize I myself have lived right at the epicenter of much of what is being debated here. My grandparents were ones of the settlers who built this country out of swamps and deserts, and having been raised on their socialist ideology, with the emphasis of love of one's fellow man I take your condescending criticque rather personally. You judge us so readily, while clearly you've little touch with the reality here. It's clear to me your life or home have never been in danger.

What do you think? Don't tell me what the consensus of your mates is or what you've been told to think, tell me what you understand about the situation, question your media: I do, I think it's biased crap half the time, I look into Israeli sources.

Here's an article that I think covers my thoughts: http://www.peacenow.org.il/site/en/peace.asp?pi=195&docid=1845"
Israelis are well-versed in all things military. Most of us have served in the military, our sons and daughters do etc. We've also the dubious experience of one endless conflict. The same goes for our journalists, who know they're not exactly speaking to a crowd of action seeking children. We know which channels and reporters are more nationalist than others, it's come up in my conversations several times over the past few days. There are reporters that specialise in Arab affairs, Arab media, international media, and even before this conflict began they've been delivering as complete a picture as possible. Apart from all the live feeds from Lebanon, there are phone interviews with Lebanese civilians. I watch CNN and Sky because that's all I receive but I also look at a myriad of news sites, most of which are terrible.

Do me a favour go through all my posts and tell me where exactly my history is wrong,

Israel are bombing civillians and Hizbullah are bombing civillians, I don't think either side could killl more civillians if it started aiming for them deliberately.

Honestly.

I'm confused when you bombed that airport what were the civillian casualties, 79 wasn't it, something like that?

There were no casualties at all.

But to say peace will never work is hypothesis, since it has never been tried how can you make this assumption without evidence?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Accords" .

I find this sort of politcal BS insulting to Palestinians, it was there land given over by treaty, you broke the treaty and stole it and you refuse to give it back and your premise is they were not a state so we can break our promise before the world because they do not exist as a people or a state

I've shown there was no such treaty, only a UN plan, and that the State of Israel was established according to that plan. It was the Arab nations that attacked it the next day thus "breaking the treaty" in your own words.

The UN partition plan, now where as the reason for taking these distinctly demarkated Arab/Palestinian state may have been to pre-empt a strike and may even have had merit at the time, holding onto them and refusing to give them back is a clear breach of an already unfair treaty that you no doubt signed eagerly and then failed to uphold, you broke your word, to make ammends for this breach of trust you might want to consider giving the land back.

Israel never refused to return the land. It actually gave most of it back already. It was the Arab leaders that decided in the Khartoum conference not to negotiate with Israel under any circumstance.

You need to accept the idea that everyone outside of Israel thinks that Palestine belonged to the Palestinians or Arabs who lived there before 1890 when you were but 5% of the population, when you turned up you took the land, or rather were gifted it, it already belonged to someone else

Every piece of land that was settled before the war of independence was bought. Jews all around the world put whatever money they could spare into the famous http://www.jnf.org/" "blue box" (photo attached) to redeem the land our entire culture is centred around.

when I'm talking about this crisis you refer to the past, when I'm talking about the past you refer to this crisis, your disengenuous.

Please enlighten me.

If you want a real dialogue stop trying to rewrite history in your favour, it might help. If you don't want a good discussion, then let all the fine posters pat you on the back, if that's what you want, so be it.

What pat on the back?

 

[Yonoz]

Do you think Syria would be less happy with NATO handling this compared to the IDF contuning themselves?

I think Syria would be very happy seeing as a NATO force could never achieve such a mission.

Note that alll the waiting you did is one of the things I've been taking issue with here.

Wow and I thought you have a problem with everything Israel does...
Seriously though, do you honestly think we're so happy to go to war we haven't done everything to avoid it? My 2 younger brothers are risking their lives right now, and I may be called to reserve service at any moment, do you think my family is happy about this?

The planting flags on hilltops and building there is what strikes the image of colonisation to me, but do I agree with your distance argument refuting my use of the term. So, in respect to that; can you acknowledge the fact that Israel has continuously denied the Palestinians rights by occupying and settling on their land for nearly 40 years.

Yes, and as you can see I'm acting on the matter. You can also return to Hurkyl's appeasement list if you're looking for signs of goodwill by Israel to end it.

 

[Yonoz]

About seven minutes into this video, you can see a http://news.walla.co.il/?w=//944950" . The soldiers are removing part of the launching platform and examining a rocket. Notice the vehicle looks completely civilian from the outside, and is stored right under the mosque.

 

[Anttech]

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Turk
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/turk

I never realized how much forsight people back then had, coming up with words to refer to people living in a country that didn't even exist yet.

Yeah, strange isn't it. Thats why I said the Ottomens were not turks, glad we are now in aggreement.

I was thinking France, Western Germany, Britain, and Japan. Obviously they weren't better off than they were before the war, but neither were they irreparably harmed.

So alright to you is, "not irreparably harmed"? Great, least we not forget eh?

 

[Yonoz]

The last time Hizbullah tried kidnapping soldiers was November of last year. The events are very similar to the ones that started this conflict. Israel appealed to the UNSC, and unfortunately all they did was issue http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2005/sc8563.doc.htm" :

The members of the Security Council received a briefing on 21 November 2005 from the Department of Peacekeeping Operations on the serious incidents along the Blue Line on that day.

The members of the Council expressed deep concern about the hostilities, which were initiated by Hizbollah from the Lebanese side, and which quickly spread along the entire Blue Line. They regretted the resulting casualties on both sides.

They appealed to all parties to respect the Blue Line in its entirety, to exercise utmost restraint and to refrain from any action that could further escalate the situation.

They reiterated their call on the Government of Lebanon to extend its authority and to exert its monopoly over the use of force all over its territory in accordance with Security Council resolutions.

 

[Yonoz]

Now specificly, when and what was the last valid effort Israel made to resolve the problem of Hezbollah by working with UN or UNIFIL officals?

Finally found it: May 30th, 2006 - http://www.israel-un.org/latest/sg_letters/2006/gillerman30may06.htm"

Excellency,

It is with great dismay that yet another terrorist attack has been perpetrated against the citizens of Israel. Over the weekend, the Hizbullah terrorist organization fired eight Katyusha rockets deep into northern Israel from Lebanese territory, wounding an Israeli soldier and resulting in an extensive exchange of fire along the Lebanese border.

We hold not only the government of Lebanon fully responsible for all terrorist activity emanating from within its territory, but also hold responsible the governments of Iran and Syria for harboring, financing, nurturing, and supporting Hizbullah and other terrorist organizations.

Israel urges the United Nations and the Government of Lebanon to ensure that all obligations as set out in Security Council resolutions 425, 1559, and 1680 are fulfilled. The time has come for the sovereign Government of Lebanon to extend its control over all of its territory and disband Hizbullah and other terrorist organizations.

Excellency, I submit the present letter in follow-up to an oral complaint lodged on Sunday, 28 May 2006.

I should be grateful if you would arrange to have the text of the present letter distributed as a document of the General Assembly, under agenda items 108, “Measures to Eliminate International Terrorism,” and 14, “The Situation in the Middle East.” An identical letter has been submitted to H.E. Mr. Basile Ikouebe, President of the Security Council.

Please accept, Excellency, the assurances of my highest consideration.

Yours truly,

Ambassador Dan Gillerman
Permanent Representative of Israel

 

[Cyrus]

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/scp_v3/viewer/index.php?pid=16598&rn=49750&cl=610896&ch=49799&src=news.yahoo.com

Yonoz, I suggest you look at your own media with a grain of salt

Lately it seems the Israel Defense Forces spokeswoman is sometimes assuming the role of chief censor. The spokeswoman, Brigadier General Miri Regev, has been interviewed by all of the television channels and has spoken out against what she considers overly explosive coverage of the rocket landing sites. The TV newspeople do not understand her consternation.

"After all, a representative of the [IDF] censor is always sitting in the studio," said a senior source at Channel 10, "and he approves the broadcast of what Regev opposes."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/740447.html

How do we know how many civlians are being killed, how many hezbollah? If the stat's are coming from Israel, I highly doubt they reflect the true numbers.

To Hurkyl and Anttech: enough about the turks what does it have to do with this thread?

 

[kyleb]

I think Syria would be very happy seeing as a NATO force could never achieve such a mission.

And if NATO offered up a force that could?

Wow and I thought you have a problem with everything Israel does...
Seriously though, do you honestly think we're so happy to go to war we haven't done everything to avoid it? My 2 younger brothers are risking their lives right now, and I may be called to reserve service at any moment, do you think my family is happy about this?

Yes please, seriously, you missrepersenting my position doesn't help. I think you "waited enough for Hizbullah's weapons", just as you said you did, instead of actively making an honest effort to remove have Hezbollah remove from the boarder prior to.

Yes, and as you can see I'm acting on the matter. You can also return to Hurkyl's appeasement list if you're looking for signs of goodwill by Israel to end it.

Hurkyl's list doesn't present the offer you termed "fair" and Peace Now isn't promoting that offer either. I agree with you that the green line would be fair, but again Israel has shown no intention of making such a fair offer so of course the Palestinians aren't giving you a sincere response.

 

[Yonoz]

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/scp_v3/viewer/index.php?pid=16598&rn=49750&cl=610896&ch=49799&src=news.yahoo.com

Yonoz, I suggest you look at your own media with a grain of salt

I am. Rereading my post I see I haven't clarified that point. I suppose it was lost in there since I was also trying to convey the relative poorness of the 2 foreign news channels I receive. To me their coverage seems amateur and shallow. I feel I get a much richer picture, for better or for worse, from the Israeli channels.
I don't care much for that 60-minutes reporter. They interviewed her a few months ago on one of the current affairs shows, she spoke to the Israeli interviewer like he was retarded or deaf...

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/740447.html

Ah yes, that terrible Miri Regev. I've had a brief personal encounter with her back when I was a regular. I have no idea how she made it to this rank and posting. She's one of those people that are so afraid to take risks they do a terrible job, but since they don't make any real mistakes the only way to get rid of them is to promote them. There's a lot of that in the military. I think she's doing a terrible job and the sooner she's removed the better. She's dumb as a bell, too. Touche.

How do we know how many civlians are being killed, how many hezbollah? If the stat's are coming from Israel, I highly doubt they reflect the true numbers.

I highly doubt any statistics at this stage, you can read that in my previous posts.

 

[Yonoz]

And if NATO offered up a force that could?

I think we disagree whether such a force is possible. I don't think they can, and Israel's experience with "peacekeeping" forces is terrible. UNIFIL soldiers aided Hizbullah in the 2000 kidnapping, and the UN and UNIFIL lied about the presence of a mysterious video recording of the kidnapping, shot by UNIFIL troops. Israel was never handed that tape and Israeli delegates were only allowed to watch it under limiting terms. We don't want another UNIFIL on our hands, thank you very much.

Yes please, seriously, you missrepersenting my position doesn't help. I think you "waited enough for Hizbullah's weapons", just as you said you did, instead of actively making an honest effort to remove have Hezbollah remove from the boarder prior to.

I think Israel made an honest effort. Apart from repeated appeals to the UNSC and UNGC I don't see much more it could have done.

Hurkyl's list doesn't present the offer you termed "fair" and Peace Now isn't promoting that offer either. I agree with you that the green line would be fair, but again Israel has shown no intention of making such a fair offer so of course the Palestinians aren't giving you a sincere response.

All Israel can do at this stage is make an offer that would get Hamas to the table. Then, Hamas will demand more - what will Israel do then? Negotiations don't start and end with a single offer. Israel has made more than fair offers to the Palestinians numerous times and every time they continued the terrorism. Israel's policy is that it does not negotiate with those actively participating in terrorism. I think that it's only fair to demand the cessation of terrorism and recognition of our right to exist before beginning negotiations. Then a broader agreement can be reached.

 

[kyleb]

I think we disagree whether such a force is possible. I don't think they can, and Israel's experience with "peacekeeping" forces is terrible. UNIFIL soldiers aided Hizbullah in the 2000 kidnapping, and the UN and UNIFIL lied about the presence of a mysterious video recording of the kidnapping, shot by UNIFIL troops. Israel was never handed that tape and Israeli delegates were only allowed to watch it under limiting terms. We don't want another UNIFIL on our hands, thank you very much.

1) Proof UNIFL peacekeepers aided the capture?

2) They UNIFL was tasked to defend the boarder, not to disarm Hezbollah.

I think Israel made an honest effort. Apart from repeated appeals to the UNSC and UNGC I don't see much more it could have done.

An honest effort would have been for Israel either directly though the UN, or though one of her allies, to request an international force tasked with carrying out the disarmament of both foreign and Lebanese militias along the boarder as agreed to in UN1559. That is how diplomacy works to get international involvement to resolve a problem. Waiting for enough for Hezbollah's weapons to be used instead of making that honest effort is what has your two younger brothers out risking their lives in this war.

All Israel can do at this stage is make an offer that would get Hamas to the table. Then, Hamas will demand more - what will Israel do then? Negotiations don't start and end with a single offer. Israel has made more than fair offers to the Palestinians numerous times and every time they continued the terrorism. Israel's policy is that it does not negotiate with those actively participating in terrorism. I think that it's only fair to demand the cessation of terrorism and recognition of our right to exist before beginning negotiations. Then a broader agreement can be reached.

You said the green line is far, I agree; so when did Israel ever show the intention to make that fair offer, let alone more?

 

[Bystander]

(snip)An honest effort would have been for Israel either directly though the UN, or though one of her allies, should have been requesting an international force tasked with carrying out the disarmament of both foreign and Lebanese militias along the boarder as agreed to in UN1559. That is how diplomacy works to get international involvement to resolve a problem. Waiting for enough for Hezbollah's weapons to be used instead of making that honest effort is what has your two younger brothers out risking their lives in this war.
(snip)

An "honest effort" is for Arab governments and Islamic militants to comply with UN resolutions. Your insistence that the Israelis force the UN to force compliance with resolutions is absurd.

 

[kyleb]

I didn't say "force the UN," I said "request."

 

[Bystander]

Yonoz has listed request after request after request for you; those "requests" don't seem to have been good enough. What are you demanding that the Israelis do to get Arab governments to comply with UN resolutions? The historical record is that Arab governments do not comply with UN resolutions at anything other than gun-point, and the UN simply will not take that step in the mid-east --- they have restricted "peacekeeping" activities to little more than providing blue-helmeted (or bereted) "shrubbery" decorating roadsides and border crossings (occasionally used for target practice).

 

[Yonoz]

Proof UNIFL peacekeepers aided the capture?

A UNIFIL officer admitted it in an interview to an Israeli newspaper.

They UNIFL was tasked to defend the boarder, not to disarm Hezbollah.

...and has failed even at that task.

An honest effort would have been for Israel either directly though the UN, or though one of her allies, to request an international force tasked with carrying out the disarmament of both foreign and Lebanese militias along the boarder as agreed to in UN1559. That is how diplomacy works to get international involvement to resolve a problem. Waiting for enough for Hezbollah's weapons to be used instead of making that honest effort is what has your two younger brothers out risking their lives in this war.

I'll quote the relevant part since you seem unable to find it:

Israel urges the United Nations and the Government of Lebanon to ensure that all obligations as set out in Security Council resolutions 425, 1559, and 1680 are fulfilled.

BTW, that's some wonderful logic there. So Israel is guilty of Hizbullah attacking it now. I guess it's all part of some grand conspiracy.

You said the green line is far, I agree; so when did Israel ever show the intention to make that fair offer, let alone more?

More? So now you want more than a fair offer? And you want Israel to offer it to someone who does not even stop attacking its civilians? This is why it's never offered UNTIL THE NEGOTIATION ACTUALLY BEGINS. Get it into your head.

 

[Yonoz]

http://www.arabtimesonline.com/arabtimes/opinion/view.asp?msgID=1242" - Ahmed Al-Jarallah, Editor-in-Chief, the Arab Times:

People of Arab countries, especially the Lebanese and Palestinians, have been held hostage for a long time in the name of “resisting Israel.” Arab governments have been caught between political obligations and public opinion leading to more corruption in politics and economics. Forgetting the interests of their own countries the Hamas Movement and Hezbollah have gone to the extent of representing the interests of Iran and Syrian in their countries. These organizations have become the representatives of Syria and Iran without worrying about the consequences of their action.
...
While the people of Palestine and Lebanon are paying the price of this bloody conflict, the main players, who caused this conflict, are living in peace and asking for more oil from Arab countries to support the facade of resisting Israel. With the Palestinian Authority close to collapse and the Lebanese government beginning to give up responsibility for what is happening in its territory, Saudi Arabia has been forced to come out of its diplomatic routine and indirectly hold Hezbollah responsible for what is happening Lebanon.
...
Unfortunately we must admit that in such a war the only way to get rid of “these irregular phenomena” is what Israel is doing. The operations of Israel in Gaza and Lebanon are in the interest of people of Arab countries and the international community.

 

[fargoth]

1) You said the green line is far, I agree; so when did Israel ever show the intention to make that fair offer, let alone more?

here you go:

According to Ross's summary, (and as published in the Bridging proposals) Clinton's proposal gave the Palestinians about 97% of the territory of the West Bank and sovereignty over their airspace. Refugees could not return to Israel without Israeli consent. An international force would remain in the Jordan valley for six years, replacing the IDF. Arab neighborhoods of Jerusalem and the Haram as Sharif (temple mount) would be incorporated into Palestine. Saudi Arabian ambassador Prince Bandar Ibn Sultan said, "If Arafat does not accept what is available now, it won't be a tragedy, it will be a crime." (Ross, The Missing Peace, 2004, p.748).

The Israeli government met on December 27 and accepted the proposals with reservations, which according to Ross, were "within the parameters." The Palestinians equivocated. The deadline passed, and no definitive Palestinian reply was forthcoming.

and the negotiations were only about the west bank because Israel accepted to withdraw completely from the gaza strip.

so, 97% of the west bank, and all of gaza strip... sounds like a fair offer to me, and bilal (our palestinian friend) said it sounds fair to him too when i asked him a while ago when hamas was ellected.

you can take a look at the map if you wish... http://www.zionism-israel.com/ezine/fmeptaba1.gif

just wanted to make sure you got your facts right...

Do you think it's a fair offer to ask us to propose this map again just to get the negotaition started?

 

[Astronuc]

Fighting Intensifies Along Lebanon-Israel Border
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5575820
by Debbie Elliott, Eric Westervelt and Ivan Watson

All Things Considered, July 22, 2006 · Israeli tanks and hundreds of troops moved in and out of Lebanon on the 11th day of fighting between Israel and Hezbollah militants. Israel says its ground incursions into Lebanon are not the beginning of a full-scale invasion.

During the fighting on Saturday, Israeli forces took control of the Lebanese village of Maroun al-Ras. Israel says it has been a center of Hezbollah guerrilla activity.

Israeli attacks did not stop Hezbollah militants from firing more than 150 rockets into Israel. The attacks injured 17 Israelis.

At the same time, Lebanese civilians are evacuating the south in large numbers.

Lebanese College Students View Conflict from U.S.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5575823


Week in Review: Crisis in the Middle East
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5575287

Israel Hints at More Land Combat in Lebanon
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5572453


Syria Seeks to Assert Importance in Middle East
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5575269


I think it would be impossible to try a diplomatic resolution at the moment. Both sides seem determined to try military conflict. Of course, if Hizbullah were to give the two kidnapped Israeli soldiers to a neutral third party, that would be a start, and probably the only way a diplomatic process could be initiated. Hizbullah is apparently not interested, and Israel cannot negotiate with terrorists and militant organizations.

 

[abdo375]

Israel cannot negotiate with terrorists and militant organizations.

Since when is resisting occupation a terrorist act ?

 

[Gokul43201]

Since when is resisting occupation a terrorist act ?

Since the time that it involved targeting civilians in bomb attacks. Buses, cafes, marketplaces...these are not strategic targets; they are the targets of terrorists.

Heck, virtually everyone in the world agrees that Hamas is a terrorist organization.

 

[Cyrus]

Actually, only the US and Israel consider Hezbollah a terrorist organization. Hamas is in palestine, not Lebanon.

Edit: Excuse me, and by Canada and Uk.

But not by the EU.

 

[Cyrus]

Hizbullah is apparently not interested, and Israel cannot negotiate with terrorists and militant organizations.

That's not true, not at all.

The former President of the German intelligence service BND, August Hanning, during the press conference in Beirut, regarding the German negotiated prisoner exchange between Israel and Hezbollah. January 30, 2004 see also Elchanan Tenenbaum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah
or
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/01/29/prisoner.exchange/

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has confirmed publicly, for the first time, that negotiations are underway with the Hezbollah in Lebanon for an exchange of prisoners.

http://www.bakutoday.net/view.php?d=6306

Sneh was commenting on various reports, mostly from Lebanon, of progress in negotiations with the Shi'ite guerrilla group Hezbollah that could lead to an exchange of the Israelis for 19 Arabs held by Israel.

http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/module/displaystory/story_id/15113/edition_id/294/format/html/displaystory.html

Of course, if Hizbullah were to give the two kidnapped Israeli soldiers to a neutral third party, that would be a start, and probably the only way a diplomatic process could be initiated.

If they did that, they would be giving up their only bargaining chip. Even if they did release the prisoners, that would not stop Israel from bombing them. Israel has even said this themselves, so I see no reason why it would be in their interests to do so.

 

[Yonoz]

That's not true, not at all
...
If they did that, they would be giving up their only bargaining chip.

- and so they are not interested.

Even if they did release the prisoners, that would not stop Israel from bombing them. Israel has even said this themselves, so I see no reason why it would be in their interests to do so.

If the soldiers are released, Hizbullah is disarmed and the Lebanese military deploys in South Lebanon, then Israel will stop its campaign.
Hizbullah can still exist, just not as a paramilitary force. Of course, then they would lose a lot of Iranian and Syrian support.