quantum mechanics new approach

Quantum Physics via Quantum Tomography: A New Approach to Quantum Mechanics

Estimated Read Time: 10 minute(s)
Common Topics: quantum, mechanics, density, operator, measurements

This Insight article presents the main features of a conceptual foundation of quantum physics with the same characteristic features as classical physics – except that the density operator takes the place of the classical phase space coordinates position and momentum. Since everything follows from the well-established techniques of quantum tomography (the art and science of determining the state of a quantum system from measurements) the new approach may have the potential to lead in time to a consensus on the foundations of quantum mechanics. Full details can be found in my paper

  • A. Neumaier, Quantum mechanics via quantum tomography, Manuscript (2022). arXiv:2110.05294v3

This paper gives for the first time a formally precise definition of quantum measurement that

  • is applicable without idealization to complex, realistic experiments;
  • allows one to derive the standard quantum mechanical machinery from a single, well-motivated postulate;
  • leads to objective (i.e., observer-independent, operational, and reproducible) quantum state assignments to all sufficiently stationary quantum systems.
  • The new approach shows that the amount of objectivity in quantum physics is no less than that in classical physics.

The following is an extensive overview of the most important developments in this new approach.

$$
\def\<{\langle} % expectation \def\>{\rangle} % expectation
\def\tr{{\mathop{\rm tr}\,}}
\def\E{{\bf E}}
$$

Quantum states

The (Hermitian and positive semidefinite) density operator ##\rho## is taken to be the formal counterpart of the state of an arbitrary quantum source. This notion generalizes the polarization properties of light: In the case of the polarization of a source of light, the density operator represents a qubit and is given by a ##2\times 2## matrix whose trace is the intensity of the light beam. If expressed as a linear combination of Pauli matrices, the coefficients define the so-called Stokes vector. Its properties (encoded in the mathematical properties of the density operator) were first described by George Stokes (best known from the Navier-Stokes equations for fluid mechanics) who gave in 1852 (well before the birth of Maxwell’s electrodynamics and long before quantum theory) a complete description of the polarization phenomenon, reviewed in my Insight article ‘A Classical View of the Qubit‘. For a stationary source, the density operator is independent of time.

The detector response principle

A quantum measurement device is characterized by a collection of finitely many detection elements labeled by labels ##k## that respond statistically to the quantum source according to the following detector response principle (DRP):

  • A detection element ##k## responds to an incident stationary source with density operator ##\rho## with a nonnegative mean rate ##p_k## depending linearly on ##\rho##. The mean rates sum to the intensity of the source. Each ##p_k## is positive for at least one density operator ##\rho##.

If the density operator is normalized to intensity one (which we shall do in this exposition) the response rates form a discrete probability measure, a collection of nonnegative numbers ##p_k## (the response probabilities) that sum to 1.

The DRP, abstracted from the polarization properties of light, relates theory to measurement. By its formulation it allows one to discuss quantum measurements without the need for quantum mechanical models for the measurement process itself. The latter would involve the detailed dynamics of the microscopic degrees of freedom of the measurement device – clearly out of the scope of a conceptual foundation on which to erect the edifice of quantum physics.

The main consequence of the DRP is the detector response theorem. It asserts that for every measurement device, there are unique operators ##P_k## which determine the rates of response to every source with density operator ##\rho## according to the formula
$$
p_k=\langle P_k\rangle:=\tr\rho P_k.
$$
The ##P_k## form a discrete quantum measure; i.e., they are Hermitian, positive semidefinite and sum to the identity operator ##1##. This is the natural quantum generalization of a discrete probability measure. (In more abstract terms, a discrete quantum measure is a simple instance of a so-called POVM, but the latter notion is not needed for understanding the main message of the paper.)

Statistical expectations and quantum expectations

Thus a quantum measurement device is characterized formally by means of a discrete quantum measure. To go from detection events to measured numbers one needs to provide a scale that assigns to each detection element ##k## a real or complex number (or vector) ##a_k##. We call the combination of a measurement device with a scale a quantum detector. The statistical responses of a quantum detector define the statistical expectation
$$
\E(f(a_k)):=\sum_{k\in K} p_kf(a_k)
$$
of any function ##f(a_k)## of the scale values. As always in statistics, this statistical expectation is operationally approximated by finite sample means of ##f(a)##, where ##a## ranges over a sequence of actually measured values. However, the exact statistical expectation is an abstraction of this; it works with a nonoperational probabilistic limit of infinitely many measured values so that the replacement of relative sample frequencies by probabilities is justified. If we introduce the quantum expectation
$$
\langle A\rangle:=\tr\rho A
$$
of an operator ##A## and say that the detector measures the quantity
$$
A:=\sum_{k\in K} a_kP_k,
$$
it is easy to deduce from the main result the following version of Born’s rule (BR):

  • The statistical expectation of the measurement results equals the quantum expectation of the measured quantity.
  • The quantum expectations of the quantum measure constitute the probability measure characterizing the response.

This version of Born’s rule applies without idealization to results of arbitrary quantum measurements.
(In general, the density operator is not necessarily normalized to intensity ##1##; without this normalization, we call ##\langle A\rangle## the quantum value of ##A## since it does not satisfy all properties of an expectation.)

Projective measurements

The conventional version of Born’s rule – the traditional starting point relating quantum theory to measurement in terms of eigenvalues, found in all textbooks on quantum mechanics – is obtained by specializing the general result to the case of exact projective measurements. The spectral notions do not appear as postulated input as in traditional expositions, but as consequences of the derivation in a special case – the case where ##A## is a self-adjoint operator, hence has a spectral resolution with real eigenvalues ##a_k##, and the ##P_k## is the projection operators to the eigenspaces of ##A##. In this special case, we recover the traditional setting with all its ramifications together with its domain of validity. This sheds new light on the understanding of Born’s rule and eliminates the most problematic features of its uncritical use.

Many examples of realistic measurements are shown to be measurements according to the DRP but have no interpretation in terms of eigenvalues. For example, joint measurements of position and momentum with limited accuracy, essential for recording particle tracks in modern particle colliders, cannot be described in terms of projective measurements; Born’s rule in its pre-1970 forms (i.e., before POVMs were introduced to quantum mechanics) does not even have an idealized terminology for them. Thus the scope of the DRP is far broader than that of the traditional approach based on highly idealized projective measurements. The new setting also accounts for the fact that in many realistic experiments, the final measurement results are computed from raw observations, rather than being directly observed.

Operational definitions of quantum concepts

Based on the detector response theorem, one gets an operational meaning for quantum states, quantum detectors, quantum processes, and quantum instruments, using the corresponding versions of quantum tomography.

In quantum state tomography, one determines the state of a quantum system with a ##d##-dimensional Hilbert space by measuring sufficiently many quantum expectations and solving a subsequent least squares problem (or a more sophisticated optimization problm) for the ##d^2-1## unknowns of the state. Quantum tomography for quantum detectors, quantum processes, and quantum instruments proceed in a similar way.

These techniques serve as foundations for far-reaching derived principles; for quantum systems with a low-dimensional density matrix, they are also practically relevant for the characterization of sources, detectors, and filters. A quantum process also called a linear quantum filter, is formally described by a completely positive map. The operator sum expansion of completely positive maps forms the basis for the derivation of the dynamical laws of quantum mechanics – the quantum Liouville equation for density operators, the conservative time-dependent Schrödinger equation for pure states in a nonmixing medium, and the dissipative Lindblad equation for states in mixing media – by a continuum limit of a sequence of quantum filters. This derivation also reveals the conditions under which these laws are valid. An analysis of the oscillations of quantum values of states satisfying the Schrödinger equation produces the Rydberg-Ritz combination principle underlying spectroscopy, which marked the onset of modern quantum mechanics. It is shown that in quantum physics, normalized density operators play the role of phase space variables, in complete analogy to the classical phase space variables position and momentum. Observations with highly localized detectors naturally lead to the notion of quantum fields whose quantum values encode the local properties of the universe.

Thus the DRP leads naturally to all basic concepts and properties of modern quantum mechanics. It is also shown that quantum physics has a natural phase space structure where normalized density operators play the role of quantum phase space variables. The resulting quantum phase space carries a natural Poisson structure. Like the dynamical equations of conservative classical mechanics, the quantum Liouville equation has the form of Hamiltonian dynamics in a Poisson manifold; only the manifold is different.

Philosophical consequences

The new approach has significant philosophical consequences. When a source is stationary, response rates, probabilities, and hence quantum values, can be measured in principle with arbitrary accuracy, in a reproducible way. Thus they are operationally quantifiable, independent of an observer. This makes them objective properties, in the same sense as in classical mechanics, positions and momenta are objective properties. Thus quantum values are seen to be objective, reproducible elements of reality in the sense of the famous paper

The assignment of states to stationary sources is as objective as any assignment of classical properties to macroscopic objects. In particular, probabilities appear – as in classical mechanics – only in the context of statistical measurements. Moreover, all probabilities are objective frequentist probabilities in the sense employed everywhere in experimental physics – classical and quantum. Like all measurements, probability measurements are of limited accuracy only, approximately measurable as observed relative frequencies.

Among all quantum systems, classical systems are characterized as those whose observable features can be correctly described by local equilibrium thermodynamics, as predicted by nonequilibrium statistical mechanics. This leads to a new perspective on the quantum measurement problem and connects to the thermal interpretation of quantum physics, discussed in detail in my 2019 book ‘Coherent Quantum Physics‘ (de Gruyter, Berlin 2019).

Conclusion

To summarize, the new approach gives an elementary, and self-contained deductive approach to quantum mechanics. A suggestive notion for what constitutes a quantum detector and for the behavior of its responses leads to a definition of measurement from which the modern apparatus of quantum mechanics can be derived in full generality. The statistical interpretation of quantum mechanics is not assumed, but the version of it that emerges is discussed in detail. The standard dynamical and spectral rules of introductory quantum mechanics are derived with little effort. At the same time, we find the conditions under which these standard rules are valid. A thorough, precise discussion is given of various quantitative aspects of uncertainty in quantum measurements. Normalized density operators play the role of quantum phase space variables, in complete analogy to the classical phase space variables position and momentum.

There are implications of the new approach for the foundations of quantum physics. By shifting the attention from the microscopic structure to the experimentally accessible macroscopic equipment (sources, detectors, filters, and instruments) we get rid of all potentially subjective elements of quantum theory. There are natural links to the thermal interpretation of quantum physics as defined in my book.

The new picture is simpler and more general than the traditional foundations, and closer to actual practice. This makes it suitable for introductory courses on quantum mechanics. Complex matrices are motivated from the start as a simplification of the mathematical description. Both conceptually and in terms of motivation, introducing the statistical interpretation of quantum mechanics through quantum measures is simpler than introducing it in terms of eigenvalues. To derive the most general form of Born’s rule from quantum measures one just needs simple linear algebra, whereas even to write down Born’s rule in the traditional eigenvalue form, unfamiliar stuff about wave functions, probability amplitudes, and spectral representations must be swallowed by the beginner – not to speak of the difficult notion of self-adjointness and associated proper boundary conditions, which is traditionally simply suppressed in introductory treatments.

Thus there is no longer an incentive for basing quantum physics on measurements in terms of eigenvalues – a special, highly idealized case – in place of the real thing.

Postscript

In the mean time I revised the paper. The new version new version is better structured and contains a new section on high precision quantum measurements, where the 12 digit accuracy determination of the gyromagnetic ration through the observation and analysis of a single electron in a Penning trap is discussed in some detail. The standard analysis assumes that the single electron is described by a time-dependent density operator following a differential equation. While in the original papers this involved arguments beyond the traditional (ensemble-based and knowledge-based) interpretations of quantum mechanics, the new tomography-based approach applies without difficulties.

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  1. vanhees71 says:
    It's simply not true! As shown in the book by Peres in a very clear way the Born rule is underlying also the more general cases of POVMs. All the experiments, leading to several Nobel prizes (Dehmelt, Wineland, Haroche,…), with single electrons, atoms, ions, etc. in traps has been analyzed in the standard way of quantum theory. The trace formula to calculate expectation values is a direct consequence of the probabilities predicted in the formalism of QT using Born's rule.

    Once more the citation of Peres's book:

    A. Peres, Quantum Theory: Concepts and Methods, Kluwer
    Academic Publishers, New York, Boston, Dordrecht, London,
    Moscow (2002).

    I don't know, whether he uses the phrase "weak measurement", but he discusses POVMs and gives a very concise description of what's predicted by QT. It seems to be very much along the lines you propose in your paper (as far as I think I understand it).

  2. A. Neumaier says:

    vanhees71 said

    I was talking about the textbook by Peres, quoted in the posting you quote.

    Please give a page number. If I remember correctly, Peres never mentions the notion of weak measurement. A search in scholar.google.com for

    • author:Peres "weak measurement"

    gives no hits at all.

  3. A. Neumaier says:

    vanhees71 said

    I do not conflate the two. I'm talking about the meaning of the formalism, and that's probabilistic via Born's rule. All concepts related with the statistical meaning of the formalism are derived from Born's rule, including the trace rule for expectation values of observables.

    I am also talking about the meaning of the formalism, but using more careful language. I do this without invoking Born's rule, which you take to be a blanket phrase covering everything probabilistic, independent of its origin. This blurs the conceptual distinctions and makes it impossible to discuss details with you.

    vanhees71 said

    Of course in measurements there is no Hilbert space, no operators, no trace rule, no Born's rule.

    In the mathematical formalism there is also no Born's rule, but only the trace rule defining quantum expectations. Born's rule only relates the trace rule to measurements, and it does so only in special cases – namely when measurements are made on independent and identically prepared ensembles.

    As long as there are no measurements – and this includes everything in books on quantum mechanics or quantum field theory when they derive formulas for scattering amplitudes or N-point functions -, everything is independent of Born's rule. The formula ##\langle A\rangle:=##Tr##\rho A## is just a definition of the meaning of the string on the left in terms of that on the right. It has a priori nothing to do with measurement, and hence with Born's rule.

    But it seems to me that you simply equate Born's rule with the trace rule, independent of its relation to measurement. Equating this makes trivially everything dependent on Born's rule. But this makes Born's rule vacuous, and its application to measurements invalid in contexts where no ensemble of independent and identically prepared ensembles. exist.

  4. vanhees71 says:
    I was talking about the textbook by Peres, quoted in the posting you quote. Of course, Brown and Gabrielse use just standard quantum theory to discuss the physics, and obviously it works. There's no need for alternative interpretations than standard QT.
  5. A. Neumaier says:

    vanhees71 said

    What's new is the order of presentation, i.e., it is starting from the most general case of "weak measurements" (described by POVMs)

    Could you please point out to which paper (and which page) you refer here? I found no mention of weak measurements or POVMs in the geonium paper by Brown and Gabrielse that you mentioned earlier. The latter is quite interesting but very long, so it takes a lot of time to digest the details. I'll comment on it in due time in a new thread.

    vanhees71 said

    Maybe it would help, when a concrete measurement is discussed, e.g., the nowadays standard experiment with single ("heralded") photons (e.g., produced with parametric down conversion using a laser and a BBO crystal, using the idler photon as the "herald" and then doing experiments with the signal photon).

    I discussed a different single photon scenario, that of ''photons on demand'', in a lecture given some time ago:

  6. vanhees71 says:
    I do not conflate the two. I'm talking about the meaning of the formalism, and that's probabilistic via Born's rule. All concepts related with the statistical meaning of the formalism are derived from Born's rule, including the trace rule for expectation values of observables. It even implies the probabilities for measurement outcomes, as is well known from standard probability theory.

    Of course in measurements there is no Hilbert space, no operators, no trace rule, no Born's rule. You just measure observables and evaluate the statistics of their outcomes, take into account the specifics of the apparatus etc. There is no generally valid formalism for this but it has to be analyzed for any experimental setup. That's not what I'm discussing and it's not related to the interpretation of QT.

  7. A. Neumaier says:

    vanhees71 said

    I give up obviously I'm unable to understand your point of view.

    Is it so difficult to understand that

    • I make a difference between two kinds of expectation (statistical – related to measurement only and quantum – related to the formalism only), to get more clarity into the foundations, while
    • you conflate the two and hence have Born's rule even in purely mathematical calculations that have nothing at all to do with measurement?

    Once you can accept that one can make this difference, you'll be able to understand everything I said. And you'll benefit a lot from this understanding!

  8. A. Neumaier says:

    vanhees71 said

    To get expectation values you need the probabilities/probability distributions, which are given by Born's rule in the formalism.

    No.

    1. To get quantum expectations one just needs a density operators and the trace formula. This is not Born's rule. But it is what is used everywhere in the formalism of quantum mechanics and quantum field theory
    2. To get statistical expectations one just needs to average over a sample of measurement values. This is not Born's rule. But it is what is used everywhere in the analysis of statistical data.
    3. To relate the two one needs an assumption – the assumption that the measurements come from independent and identical realizations of the quantum system. In this case (and only in this case!) one can equate quantum expectations and statistical expectations. This is Born"s rule.
    4. In general, and in particular whenever the measurements are taken on a single quantum system, the relation between quantum expectations and statistical expectations is complicated. One needs sophisticated statistical techniques to extract from measurements useful information about states or model parameters.

    Point 3 is a mathematically precise version of your statement that a state is given by an equivalence class of identically prepared systems.

    vanhees71 said

    That interpretation of the state, ##\hat{\rho}##, leads immediately to ##\langle A \rangle=\mathrm{Tr}(\hat{\rho} \hat{A})##. For me all that is subsumed under "Born's rule". Instead of saying "Born's rule" I also could say "the probabilistic interpretation of ##\hat{\rho}##", but that's very unusual among physicists.

    These are your magic wand and your magic spell, with which everything done in quantum mechanics looks as being based on Born's rule.

    But your magic ignores the assumptions in Born's rule, hence is like concluding ##1=2## from ##x=2x## by division through ##x## without checking the assumption ##x\ne 0##.

    vanhees71 said

    If Born's rule were not applicable here, the experimental results couldn't be understood with standard QT, but they obviously are!

    They are understandable with the pragmatic use of the quantum formalism that uses whatever interpretation explains an experiment. They are not understandable in terms of only Born's rule, since In experiments with single quantum systems, the assumption in Born's rule cannot be satisfied.

    vanhees71 said

    How then can it be that these results are very accurately described by Q(F)T, which uses Born's rule to predict this value of (g-2)?

    These results are very accurately described by Q(F)T, which uses only mathematics (and not Born's rule) to predict this value of g-2. QED predicts the correct value of g-2 from the QED action purely by mathematical calculations, without any reference to measurement. Hence one has nowhere an opportunity to use Born's rule, since the latter only says something about quantum observables measured by means of averaging over measurement results obtained from independent and identically prepared.

    Born's rule would however be needed to interpret probabilities measured from scattering experiments, for which Weinberg correctly invokes Born's rule. This is a typical case where the assumption present in Born's rule is satisfied.

  9. vanhees71 says:

    A. Neumaier said

    Though not interpretable in terms of Born's rule or POVMs, such processes are able to describe single time-dependent quantum systems, just as classical stochastic process are able to describe single time-dependent classical systems.

    How then can it be that these results are very accurately described by Q(F)T, which uses Born's rule to predict this value of (g-2)?

  10. vanhees71 says:

    A. Neumaier said

    There I discuss the case of nonstationary quantum systems.

    Please do not confuse contradictions and non-applicability! These are two very different things!

    If Born's rule were not applicable here, the experimental results couldn't be understood with standard QT, but they obviously are!

  11. vanhees71 says:

    A. Neumaier said

    Born's rule is not just taking averages of anything!

    I use quantum expectations all the time, but Born's rule only when I interpret a quantum expectation in terms of measuring independent and identical prepared systems – which is a necessary requirement for Born's rule to hold.

    How do you define the experimental meaning of ##\langle A\rangle## when ##A## is not normal, which is often the case in QFT?

    To get expectation values you need the probabilities/probability distributions, which are given by Born's rule in the formalism. That interpretation of the state, ##\hat{\rho}##, leads immediately to ##\langle A \rangle=\mathrm{Tr}(\hat{\rho} \hat{A})##. For me all that is subsumed under "Born's rule". Instead of saying "Born's rule" I also could say "the probabilistic interpretation of ##\hat{\rho}##", but that's very unusual among physicists.

  12. A. Neumaier says:

    Fra said

    New Measurement of the Electron Magnetic Moment and the Fine Structure Constant
    "A measurement using a one-electron quantum cyclotron gives the electron magnetic moment in Bohr magnetons, g/2 = 1.001 159 652 180 73 (28) [0.28 ppt], with an uncertainty 2.7 and 15 times smaller than for previous measurements in 2006 and 1987."
    https://arxiv.org/abs/0801.1134

    vanhees71 said

    How then can it be that, e.g., the measurement of the gyrofactor of the electron using a Penning trap is as precise as it is?

    The measurement of the gyrofactor of the electron using a Penning trap is as precise as it is
    because certain experimental situations happen to have very accurate descriptions in terms of a few-parameter quantum stochastic process, and the gyrofactor is one of these parameters.

    Though not interpretable in terms of Born's rule or POVMs, such processes are able to describe single time-dependent quantum systems, just as classical stochastic process are able to describe single time-dependent classical systems.

    The facts that there are only very few parameters and that one can measure arbitrarily long time series imply that one can use statistical parameter estimation techniques to find the parameters to arbitrary accuracy. The fact that the models are accurate imply that the parameters found for the gyrofactor accurately represent the gyrofactor.

    I am now reading the papers you and Fra cited and will give details once I have digested them.

  13. A. Neumaier says:

    vanhees71 said

    don't understand, what the content of Sect. 4.5 has to do with our discussion.

    There I discuss the case of nonstationary quantum systems.

    vanhees71 said

    then pointing out where, in the view of the author, this contradicts the standard statistical interpretation a la Born.

    Please do not confuse contradictions and non-applicability! These are two very different things!

  14. A. Neumaier says:

    vanhees71 said

    You use yourself Born's rule all the time since everything is based on taking averages of all kinds defined by ##\langle A \rangle=\mathrm{Tr} \hat{\rho} \hat{A}## (if you use normalized ##\hat{\rho}##'s).

    Born's rule is not just taking averages of anything!

    I use quantum expectations all the time, but Born's rule only when I interpret a quantum expectation in terms of measuring independent and identical prepared systems – which is a necessary requirement for Born's rule to hold.

    How do you define the experimental meaning of ##\langle A\rangle## when ##A## is not normal, which is often the case in QFT?

  15. vanhees71 says:
    There was also no theoretical understanding of the discrete line spectra. Since 1911 also the stability of matter was also no longer describable within classical physics, leading to Bohrs suggestion of "old quantum mechanics", worked then further out by Sommerfeld.
  16. vanhees71 says:
    I don't know, what you mean by "agent". Is it the physicist sitting at a computer evaluating the "raw data on tape" given some scheme to extract the measurements of observables he wants to measure? Then I'd say it's completely irrelevant how this is described by quantum theory. Here we are really in the realm, where classical physics is the only necessary description. The physicist just uses stored irreversible facts (data on some storage device like a hard disk) and evaluates them with some (classical) algorithm to extract the data in a form he wants for his analysis of the (quantum) physical experiment.
  17. A. Neumaier says:

    Fra said

    IF the precessing electron is "stationary enough", if they are able to keep a single electron precessing for a month?

    Electrons in accelerators come in large bunches, not a single electrons….

    Fra said

    What is "stationary or not", is I think also relative. Ie. relative to the speed of information processing of the observer.

    It is only relative to the speed and accuracy with which reliable measurements can be taken. This is independent of any information processing on the side of the agent.

  18. vanhees71 says:
    I think the problem is that I understand something completely different when I read this paper than it's the intention of the authors. Particularly I have no clue, why behind the entire formalism of the description of the outcomes of measurements there should not be Born's rule. For me POVMs are just a description of measurement devices and the corresponding experiments, where one does not perform an ideal von Neumann filter measurement, and it's of course right that only a very few real-world experiment are such ideal von Neumann filter measurements, and a more general description of the experiments that have become possible nowadays (starting roughly with the first Bell tests by Aspect et al).

    My understanding of the paper is that it is very close to the view as provided, e.g., by Asher Peres in his book

    A. Peres, Quantum Theory: Concepts and Methods, Kluwer
    Academic Publishers, New York, Boston, Dordrecht, London,
    Moscow (2002).

    What's new is the order of presentation, i.e., it is starting from the most general case of "weak measurements" (described by POVMs) and then brings the standard-textbook notion of idealized von Neumann filter measurements as a special case, and this makes a lot of sense, if you are aiming at a deductive (or even axiomatic) formulation of QT. The only problem seems to be that this view is not what the author wants to express, and I have no idea what the intended understanding is.

    Maybe it would help, when a concrete measurement is discussed, e.g., the nowadays standard experiment with single ("heralded") photons (e.g., produced with parametric down conversion using a laser and a BBO crystal, using the idler photon as the "herald" and then doing experiments with the signal photon). In my understanding such a "preparation procedure" determines the state, i.e., the statistical operator in the formalism. Then one can do an experiment, e.g., a Mach-Zender interferometer with polarizers, phase shifters etc. in the two arms and then you have photon detectors to do single-photon measurements. It should be possible to describe such a scenario completely with the formalism proposed in the paper and then pointing out where, in the view of the author, this contradicts the standard statistical interpretation a la Born.

  19. A. Neumaier says:

    vanhees71 said

    I don't understand, what the content of Sect. 4.5 has to do with our discussion. I don't see, how you can come to the conclusion that the "pragmatic use" of the formalism contradicts the Born rule as the foundation.

    I didn't claim a contradiction with, I claimed the nonapplicability of Born's rule. These are two very different claims.

    vanhees71 said

    all these pragmatic uses are based on the probabilistic interpretation of the state a la Born.

    You seem to follow the magic interpretation of quantum mechanics. Whenever you see statistics on measurements done on a quantum system you cast the magic spell "Born's probability interpretation", and whenever you see a calculation involving quantum expectations you wave a magic wand and say "ah, an application of Born's rule". In this way you pave your way through every paper on quantum physics and say with satisfaction at the end, "This paper proves again what I knew for a long time, that the interpretation of quantum mechanics is solely based on the probabilistic interpretation of the state a la Born".

    You simply cannot see the difference between the two statements

    1. If an ensemble of independent and identically prepared quantum systems is measured then ##p_k=\langle P_k\rangle## is the probability occurrence of the ##k##th event.
    2. If a quantum system is measured then ##p_k=\langle P_k\rangle## is the probability occurrence of the ##k##th event.

    The first statement is Born's rule, in the generalized form discussed in my paper.
    The second statement (which you repeatedly employed in your argumentation) is an invalid generalization, since the essential hypothesis is missing under which the statement holds. Whenever one invokes Born's rule without having checked that the ensemble involved is actually independent and identically prepared, one commits a serious scientific error.

    It is an error of the same kind as to conclude from x=2x through division by x that 1=2, because the assumption necessary for the argument was ignored.

    vanhees71 said

    Also, as I said before, I don't understand how you can say that with a non-stationary source no accuracy is reachable, while the quoted Penning-trap experiments lead to results which are among the most accurate measurements of quantities like the gyro-factor of electrons or, just recently reported even in the popular press, the accurate measurement of the charge-mass ratio of the antiproton.

    This is not a contradiction since both the gyro-factor of electrons and the charge-mass ratio of the antiproton are not observables in the traditional quantum mechanical sense but constants of Nature.

    A constant is stationary and can in principle be arbitrarily well measured, while the arbitrarily accurate measurement of the state of a nonstationary system is in principle impossible. This holds already in classical mechanics, and there is no reason why less predictable quantum mechanical systems should behave otherwise.

    vanhees71 said

    Nowhere in your paper I can see, that there is anything NOT based on Born's rule, although you use the generalization to POVMS, but I don't see that this extension is in contradiction to Born's rule. Rather, it's based on it.

    This is because of your magic practices in conjunction with mixing up "contradition to" and "not applicable". Both prevent you from seeing what everyone else can see.

  20. vanhees71 says:
    I don't understand, what the content of Sect. 4.5 has to do with our discussion. I don't see, how you can come to the conclusion that the "pragmatic use" of the formalism contradicts the Born rule as the foundation. To the contrary all these pragmatic uses are based on the probabilistic interpretation of the state a la Born. Also, as I said before, I don't understand how you can say that with a non-stationary source no accuracy is reachable, while the quoted Penning-trap experiments lead to results which are among the most accurate measurements of quantities like the gyro-factor of electrons or, just recently reported even in the popular press, the accurate measurement of the charge-mass ratio of the antiproton.

    Nowhere in your paper I can see, that there is anything NOT based on Born's rule, although you use the generalization to POVMS, but I don't see that this extension is in contradiction to Born's rule. Rather, it's based on it.

  21. A. Neumaier says:

    vanhees71 said

    This would imply that you cannot describe the results about a particle in a Penning trap with standard quantum theory,

    This statement is indeed true if you restrict standard quantum theory to mean the formal apparatus plus Born's rule in von Neumann's form. Already the Stern-Gerlach experiment discussed above is a counterexample.

    vanhees71 said

    but obviously that's successfully done for decades!

    This is because standard quantum theory was never restricted to a particular interpretation of the formalism. Physicists advancing the scope of applicability of quantum theory were always pragmatic and used whatever they found suitable to match the mathematical quantum formalism to particular experimental situations. This – and not what the introductory textbooks tell – was and is the only relevant criterion for the interpretation of quantum mechanics. The textbook version is only a simplified a posteriori rationalization.

    This pragmatic approach worked long ago for the Stern-Gerlach experiment. The same pragmatic stance also works since decades for the quantum jump and quantum diffusion approaches to nonstationary individual quantum systems, to the extent of leading to a Nobel prize. They simply need more flexibility in the interpretation than Born's rule offers. What is needed is discussed in Section 4.5 of my paper.

  22. vanhees71 says:
    This would imply that you cannot describe the results about a particle in a Penning trap with standard quantum theory, but obviously that's successfully done for decades!
  23. A. Neumaier says:

    vanhees71 said

    I don't understand this argument. You just measure repeatedly some observable. The measurements (or rather the reaction of the measured system to the coupling to the measurement device) themselves of course have to be taken into account as part of the "preparation" too.

    It is a preparation, but not one to which Born's rule applies. Born's rule is valid only if the ensemble consists of independent and identically prepared states. You need independence because e.g., immediately repeated position measurements of a particle do not respect Born's rule, and you need identical prepartion because there is only one state in Born's formula.

    In the case under discussion, one may interpret the situation as reeated preparation, as you say. But unless the system is stationary (and hence uninteresting in the context of the experiment under discussion), the state prepared before the ##k##th measurement is different for each ##k##. Moreover, due to the preceding measurement this state is only inaccurately known and correlated with the preceding one. Thus the ensemble prepared consists of nonindependent and nonidentically prepared states, for which Born's rule is silent.

  24. vanhees71 says:
    I don't understand this argument. You just measure repeatedly some observable. The measurements (or rather the reaction of the measured system to the coupling to the measurement device) themselves of course have to taken into account as part of the "preparation" too.
  25. A. Neumaier says:

    vanhees71 said

    I still do not understand why you say that the content of the review papers by Dehmelt and Brown contain anything denying the validity of Born's rule. For me it's used all the time!

    Because Born's rule assumes identical preparations which is not the case when a nonstationary system is measured repeatedly. I am not denying the validity but the applicability of the rule!

    I need to read the paper before I can go into details.

  26. vanhees71 says:
    I still do not understand why you say that the content of the review papers by Dehmelt and Brown contain anything denying the validity of Born's rule. For me it's used all the time!
  27. A. Neumaier says:

    vanhees71 said

    I was referring to the measurements on single particles in a trap, not on ALICE photon measurements. There are tons of papers about "direct photons":

    https://inspirehep.net/literature?sort=mostrecent&size=25&page=1&q=find title photons and cn alice

    Polarization measurements for dileptons or photons are very rare today. There's a polarization measurement by the NA60 collaboration on di-muons:

    https://arxiv.org/abs/0812.3100

    Thanks for the pointers. Will reply in more detial after having read more. I expect that it will mean that the instancs of case (B) are not so different from those of case (A) in my earlier classification of single-particle measurements.

  28. A. Neumaier says:

    DrDu said

    That's a nice article. However I somehow miss an explanation, what actually is meant with "quantum tomography" and one has to revert to the arxiv preprint to get an explanation. Given the title of the insights article, maybe you could add some words on what is meant with quantum tomography.

    Thanks. I added to the Insight article a link to Wikipedia and an explaining paragraph.

  29. A. Neumaier says:

    vanhees71 said

    Another review paper, which may be more to the point, because it covers both theory and experiment, is
    https://doi.org/10.1103/RevModPhys.58.233
    […] you can look at some papers by the ALICE collaboration as one example for what's measured concerning photons created in pp, pA, and AA collisions (pT spectra, elliptic flow, etc.). Concerning polarization measurements (particularly for dileptons) that's a pretty new topic,

    Are the papers where I can read about ALICE measurements and about polarization measurements in the above review?

  30. vanhees71 says:
    I don't think that we reach consensus about this issue. For me Born's rule is one of the fundamental postulates of QT (including QFT). You calculate the correlation functions (Green's functions) in QFT to get statistical information about observables like cross sections. How these correlation functions are related to the statistics of measurement outcomes is derived based on the fundamental postulates of QT, including Born's rule. Of course, that's what Weinberg and any other book on QFT does. A cross-section measurement consists of course always of collecting statistics over very many collision events using not the same particles again and again.

    You use yourself Born's rule all the time since everything is based on taking averages of all kinds defined by ##\langle A \rangle=\mathrm{Tr} \hat{\rho} \hat{A}## (if you use normalized ##\hat{\rho}##'s).

  31. A. Neumaier says:

    vanhees71 said

    All this is based on standard quantum theory and thus after all on Born's rule.

    The 'thus' is not warranted.

    Quantum field theory is completely independent of Born's rule. It is about computing ##N##-point functions of interest.

    Weinberg's QFT book (Vol.1) mentions Born's rule exactly twice – once in its review of quantum mechanics, and once where the probabilistic interpretation of the scatttering amplitude is derived. In the latter he assumes an ensemble of identically prepared particles to give a probabilistic meaning in terms of the statistics of collision experiment.

    Nothing at all about single systems!

  32. A. Neumaier says:

    vanhees71 said

    I still don't understand, why you think there cannot be statistics collected using a single quantum.

    I don't think that, and I explicitly said this. The point is that this statistics is not statistics about an ensemble of identically prepared systems hence has nothing to do with what Born's rule is about.

    vanhees71 said

    I can also get statistics of throwing a single coin again and again to check whether it's a fair one or not.

    In this case the system identically prepared is the throw, not the coin. The coin is a system described by a rigid body, with a 12D phase space state ##z(t)##, in contact with an environment that randomizes its motion through its collision with the table. The throw is what you can read off when the coin is finally at rest.

    The state of the coin is complicated and cannot be identically prepared (otherwise it would fall identically and produce identical throws);. But the state of the throw is simple – just a binary variable, and the throwing setup prepares its state identically. Each throuw is different – only the coin is the same; that's why one gets an ensemble.

    This is quite different from a quantum particle in a trap, unless (as in a throw) you reset before each measuement the state of the particle in the trap. But then the observation bevomes uninteresting. The interesting thing is to observe the particle's time dependence. Here the state changes continuously, as with the coin and not as with the throw.

  33. vanhees71 says:

    A. Neumaier said

    I didn't call these results "of limited precision" but said that they determine the state to limited precision only. The state in these experiments is a continuous stochastic function ##\rho(t)## of time with ##d^2-1## independent real components, where ##d## is the dimension of the Hilbert space. Experiments resulting in ##N## measured numbers can determine this function only to limited precision. By the law of large numbers, the error is something like ##O((dN^{1/2})^{-1})##.

    What is usually done is to simply assume a Lindblad equation (which ignores the fluctuating part of the noise due to the environment) for a truncated version of ##\rho## with very small ##d##. Then one estimates from it and the experimental results a very few parameters or quantum expectations.

    This is very far from an accurate state determination….

    Since Born's rule is a statement about the probability distribution of results for an ensemble of identically prepared systems, it is logically impossible to obtain from it conclusions about a single of these systems. A probability distribution almost never determines an individual result.

    I'll read the review once I can access it and then comment on your claim that it derives statements about a single particle from Born's rule.

    Then it should be easy for you to point to a page of a standard reference describing how the measurement of photon momentum and polarization in collision experiments is done, in sufficient detail that one can infer the assumptions and approximations made. I am not an expert on collision experiments and would appreciate your inpu.

    In Dehmelt's paper it is describe, how various quantities using single electrons/ions in a Penning trap are measured. I still don't understand, why you think there cannot be statistics collected using a single quantum. I can also get statics of throwing a single coin again and again to check whether it's a fair one or not. I just do the "random experiment" again and again using the same quantum and collect statistics and evaluate confidence levels and all that. Another review paper, which may be more to the point, because it covers both theory and experiment, is

    https://doi.org/10.1103/RevModPhys.58.233

    I also think that very rarely one does full state determinations. What's done are preparations and subsequent measurements of observables of interest.

    I'm also not an experimental physicist and far from knowing any details, how the current CERN experiments (ATLAS, CMS, and ALICE) measure electrons and photons. I use their results to compare to theoretical models, which are based on standard many-body QFT and simulations of the fireball created in heavy-ion collisions. All this is based on standard quantum theory and thus after all on Born's rule. Here you can look at some papers by the ALICE collaboration as one example for what's measured concerning photons created in pp, pA, and AA collisions (pT spectra, elliptic flow, etc.). Concerning polarization measurements (particularly for dileptons) that's a pretty new topic, and of course an even greater challenge than the spectra measured for decades now. After all these are "rare probes".

  34. DrDu says:
    That's a nice article. However I somehow miss an explanation, what actually is meant with "quantum tomography" and one has to revert to the arxiv preprint to get an explanation. Given the title of the insights article, maybe you could add some words on what is meant with quantum tomography.
  35. A. Neumaier says:

    vanhees71 said

    I wouldn't call results of experiments with single electrons, protons, ions etc. in Penning traps which are among the most precise ever "of limited precision".

    I didn't call these results "of limited precision" but said that they determine the state to limited precision only. The state in these experiments is a continuous stochastic function ##\rho(t)## of time with ##d^2-1## independent real components, where ##d## is the dimension of the Hilbert space. Experiments resulting in ##N## measured numbers can determine this function only to limited precision. By the law of large numbers, the error is something like ##O((dN^{1/2})^{-1})##.

    What is usually done is to simply assume a Lindblad equation (which ignores the fluctuating part of the noise due to the environment) for a truncated version of ##\rho## with very small ##d##. Then one estimates from it and the experimental results a very few parameters or quantum expectations.

    This is very far from an accurate state determination….

    vanhees71 said

    The theoretical description uses standard quantum theory based on Born's rule (see Dehmelt's above quoted review).

    Since Born's rule is a statement about the probability distribution of results for an ensemble of identically prepared systems, it is logically impossible to obtain from it conclusions about a single of these systems. A probability distribution almost never determines an individual result.

    I'll read the review once I can access it and then comment on your claim that it derives statements about a single particle from Born's rule.

    vanhees71 said

    Detectors measure particles and photons of coarse. Real and virtual photons (dileptons) are among the most interesting signals in pp, pA, and heavy-ion collisions at CERN for some decades.

    Then it should be easy for you to point to a page of a standard reference describing how the measurement of photon momentum and polarization in collision experiments is done, in sufficient detail that one can infer the assumptions and approximations made. I am not an expert on collision experiments and would appreciate your input.

  36. A. Neumaier says:

    Fra said

    With what "is known" I think you effectively refer to human science. But if we even here consider and obsererver: What is the real difference between what an observers knows, and what it THINKS it knows? And does it make difference to the observes betting strategy? (action)

    Science has no single betting strategy. Each scientist makes choices of his or her own preference, but published is only what passed the rules of scientific discourse, which rules out most poor judgment on the individual's side. What schience knows is an approximation to what it thinks it knows, and this approximation is quite good, otherwise resulting technology based on it would not work and not sell.

  37. vanhees71 says:
    I wouldn't call results of experiments with single electrons, protons, ions etc. in Penning traps which are among the most precise ever "of limited precision" ;-). The tgeoretical description uses standard quantum theory based on Born's rule (see Dehmelt's above quoted review).

    Detectors measure particles and photons of coarse. Real and virtual photons (dileptons) are among the most interesting signals in pp, pA, and heavy-ion collisions at CERN for some decades.

  38. A. Neumaier says:

    vanhees71 said

    One can do statistics using a single particle in, e.g., a Penning trap, as described here:
    https://doi.org/10.1088/0031-8949/1988/T22/016
    but isn't this indeed a paradigmatic example for your formulation?

    One can do statistics with any collection of measurement results.
    But in the case you mention, where the data come from a single particle, the statistics is not governed by Born's rule. Each data point is obtained at a different time, and at each time the particle is in a different state affected in an unspecified way by the previous measurement. So how could you calculate the statistics from Born's rule?

    Instead, the statistics is treated in the way I discussed in case (A).

    vanhees71 said

    Also nondestructive photon measurements are done,

    If the nondestructive single photon measurements result in a time series, the situation for this photon is the same as for the particle in the Penning trap.

    vanhees71 said

    but also the standard photon detection of course measures properties of single photons like energy, momentum, and polarization, or what else do you think the photon measurements in all the accelerators in HEP and heavy-ion physics provide?

    I didn't know that accelerators measure momentum and polarization of individual photons. Could you provide me with a reference where I can read details? Then I'll be able to show you how it matches the description in my paper.

  39. vanhees71 says:
    This we discussed repeatedly. One can do statistics using a single particle in, e.g., a Penning trap, as described here:

    https://doi.org/10.1088/0031-8949/1988/T22/016

    but isn't this indeed a paradigmatic example for your formulation?

    Also nondestructive photon measurements are done, but also the standard photon detection of course measures properties of single photons like energy, momentum, and polarization, or what else do you think the photon measurements in all the accelerators in HEP and heavy-ion physics provide?

  40. A. Neumaier says:

    vanhees71 said

    In this way it makes a lot of sense again, but as I said before, today the experimentalists are able to prepare single-quantum (particles, atoms, molecules, photons) states and observe them. The observations are of course always via macroscopic measurement devices.

    In this case the traditional interpretation in terms of Born's rule is vacuous since probabilities are meaningful only in an ensemble context but individual quantum systems do not form an ensemble.

    Instead, these experiments are traditionally interpreted in the fashion of classical stochastic processes, which have a trajectory interpretation for individual realizations, so that individual systems can be discussed. For example, this explains observed quantum jumps in atoms in an ion trap subject to external fields; see, e.g.,

    • Plenio, M. B., & Knight, P. L. (1998). The quantum-jump approach to dissipative dynamics in quantum optics. Reviews of Modern Physics, 70(1), 101.

    In the context of the present paper, one has to distinguish several cases of tiny quantum systems.

    (A) A tiny quantum system mounted on a macroscopic objects.

    1. If mounted for subsequent view in a scanning tunneling microscope, the tiny system acts as a stationary quantum source of the kind discussed in my paper, and its state can be determned by quantum tomography.
    2. If mounted on an ion trap, the tiny quantum system can be manipulated by applying external classical field. This turns it into an instationary quantum system, for which standard quantum tomography is limited to short times within which the system cn be regarded as stationary. This means that its state can be measured only to limited accuracy – only very limited information can be reliably collected. This is discussed in Section 4.5 of my paper.
    3. Nonstationary quantum tomography has hardly been studies, so it is too early to tell in detail which kind of limitations this imposes on what can be achieved experimentally.
    4. For example, in the quantum jump experiments, observations interpretable in terms of the system state are restricted to observing a noisy piecewise constant time series that shows that apart from very short times of transitions (jumps) the system is stationary – being in one of to eigenstates of the appropriate Hamiltonian. Thus, per time step, one only gets one bit of information about the changing density operator.

    (B) A tiny quantum system freely moving in a homogeneous macroscopic medium.

    1. Single massive particles in flight can be observed in a bubble chamber or, in the context of modern particle accelerators, in a time projection chamber. The latter case is discussed in Section 3.4 of my paper; the former can be done in a similar way.
    2. Single photons in flight cannot be observed; at best one can observe their death. It is impossible to do quantum tomography on them. Thus it is experimentally impossible to measure their state. Hence assigning a state to them is very questionable. Instead, a highly nonstationary photon state must be assigned to the cavity producing the photon, and case (A) applies.
  41. vanhees71 says:

    A. Neumaier said

    It describes the real use of QT as a physical theory as done by physicists since 1970, when the more comprehensive view of measurement that goes beyond von Neumann's was introduced.

    Yes. You probably need to read the whole to see the differences and understand the new point of view.

    Experiments in physics laboratories use controllable sources, filters and detectors to explore the nature of the microscopic world. All these are macroscopic objects, the only things that can be observed. The microscopic aspecs are not obsved but inferred; they define inferables, not observables. On p.13 of my paper I quote:

    A quantum source is simply a piece of equipment that has some measurable effect on detectors placed at some distance from them. How this effect comes about is not observed but described by theoretical models whose consequences can be checked against experimental results. The techniques and results described in my paper are agnostic about the models (Section 7.1), they are just about the observable (and hence macoscopic) aspects.

    This is the reason why the state is assigned to the source and not to something postulated as being transmitted. More precisely, the measured property (a quantum expecation) is assigned to the particular location at which the measurement is done, which leads naturally to a quantum field picture (Section 5.4).

    In this way it makes a lot of sense again, but as I said before, today the experimentalists are able to prepare single-quantum (particles, atoms, molecules, photons) states and observe them. The observations are of course always via macroscopic measurement devices.

  42. vanhees71 says:

    Fra said

    Given your ambitions, I guess this makes good sense. It's just that it does not solve the mysteries, at least not for me.

    I still see your perspective as as limiting case of a general (yet unknown) theory.

    It may well be that there is a more comprehensive theory then contemporary quantum theory. Who knows, what the solution of the problem to describe the gravitational interaction quantum mechanically and what this might imply for the description of spacetime, but there's no hint for such a new theory. Empirically there are no phenomena which are not described with our standard theories, as incomplete they might be.

    Fra said

    As a macroscopic object is essentially just a part of the classical reality, this to me seems quite close to Bohrs angle to the CI (in contrast to Heisenbergs). You still need a CONTEXT, and this context is classical reality. This is of course a good thing from the perspective of human science… and as the context is the good old classical reality, it becomes more trivial as except for relativity, the observer-observer interaction is more trivial.

    I think the contrary makes more sense. Macroscopic objects as we observe them are only consistently describable with quantum theory, given the atomistic structure. There'd not even be stable atoms as bound states of charged particles let alone molecules and condensed matter within classical physics. The "classical reality" is emergent, understood via the classical physical laws as effective description of the dynamical behavior of macroscopic coarse-grained observables.

    Fra said

    But it's a bad thing if you think there is explanatory power to be found by considering the logic of interacting observers. And I am not sure how it helps with fine tuning problems or unification quests. As I understand it, it isn't the ambition either. Then it's fine. I think part of the confusion, is different expectations, which I think what you wrote yourself in post 15 as well.

    /Fredrik

  43. A. Neumaier says:

    vanhees71 said

    I've started to read the paper, and I first had the impression, it's now much closer to the real use of QT as a physical theory as done by physicists since 1926,

    It describes the real use of QT as a physical theory as done by physicists since 1970, when the more comprehensive view of measurement that goes beyond von Neumann's was introduced.

    vanhees71 said

    but now it seems again, I'm completely misunderstanding its intended meaning. Obviously I misunderstood what you mean by "source". For me a "source" is just some device which "prepares quantum systems", and this can be also a single "particle" or even a single "photon" and not only macroscopic systems.

    Yes. You probably need to read the whole to see the differences and understand the new point of view.

    Arnold Neumaier (p.66) said

    From the perspective of the present considerations, quantum particles appear to be ghosts in the beams. This explains their spooky properties in the quantum physics literature!

    Experiments in physics laboratories use controllable sources, filters and detectors to explore the nature of the microscopic world. All these are macroscopic objects, the only things that can be observed. The microscopic aspecs are not obsved but inferred; they define inferables, not observables. On p.13 of my paper I quote:

    Asher Peres said

    If you visit a real laboratory, you will never find there Hermitian operators. All you can see are emitters (lasers, ion guns, synchrotrons and the like) and detectors. The experimenter controls the emission process and observes detection events. […] Quantum mechanics tells us that whatever comes from the emitter is represented by a state ρ (a positive operator, usually normalized to 1). […] Traditional concepts such as ”measuring Hermitian operators”, that were borrowed or adapted from classical physics, are not appropriate in the quantum world. In the latter, as explained above, we have emitters and detectors.

    A quantum source is simply a piece of equipment that has some measurable effect on detectors placed at some distance from them. How this effect comes about is not observed but described by theoretical models whose consequences can be checked against experimental results. The techniques and results described in my paper are agnostic about the models (Section 7.1), they are just about the observable (and hence macroscopic) aspects.

    Arnold Neumaier (p.66) said

    The present approach works independent of the nature or even the presence of a mediating substance: What is measured are properties of the source, and this has a well-define macroscopic existence. We never needed to make an assumption on the nature of the medium passed from the source to the detector. Thus the present approach is indifferent to the microscopic cause of detection events. It does not matter at all whether one regards such an event as caused by a quantum field or by the arrival of a particle. In particular, a microscopic interpretation of the single detection events as arrival of particles is not needed, not even an ontological statement about the nature of what arrives. Nor would these serve a constructive purpose.

    This is the reason why the state is assigned to the source and not to something postulated as being transmitted. More precisely, the measured property (a quantum expectation) is assigned to the particular location at which the measurement is done, which leads naturally to a quantum field picture (Section 5.4).

    Arnold Neumaier (p.50) said

    Suppose that we have a detector that is sensitive only to quantum beams entering a tiny region in space, which we call the detector’s tip. We assume that we can move the detector such that its tip is at an arbitrary point x in the medium, and we consider a fixed source, extended by layers of the medium so that x is at the boundary of the extended source. The measurement performed in this constellation is a property of the source. The results clearly depend only on what happens at x, hence they may count as a measurement of a property of whatever occupies the space at x. Thus we are entitled to consider it as a local property of the world at x at the time during which the measurement was performed.

  44. A. Neumaier says:

    Fra said

    I still see your perspective as as limiting case of a general (yet unknown) theory.

    I prefer to frame the known in an optimally rational way, rather than to speculate about the unknown.

    Fra said

    As a macroscopic object is essentially just a part of the classical reality, this to me seems quite close to Bohrs angle to the CI (in contrast to Heisenbergs). You still need a CONTEXT, and this context is classical reality.

    I define classical reality in Section 7.2 of my paper as that part of quantum reality that can be deduced from it in the form of a local equilibrium description. Thus the context is quantum physics itself.

    Fra said

    But it's a bad thing if you think there is explanatory power to be found by considering the logic of interacting observers.

    Everything in my paper is observer-independent. It doesn't matter who observes, excpt that poor observations lead to poor approximations of the state.

  45. vanhees71 says:
    I've started to read the paper, and I first had the impression, it's now much closer to the real use of QT as a physical theory as done by physicists since 1926, than the previous papers on your "thermal interpretation", but now it seems again, I'm completely misunderstanding its intended meaning. Obviously I misunderstood what you mean by "source". For me a "source" is just some device which "prepares quantum systems", and this can be also a single "particle" or even a single "photon" and not only macroscopic systems.
  46. A. Neumaier says:

    Fra said

    As I understand your paper, it seems one major improvement in your description, is to make mathematically more explicit, the process of inferring the "quantum state" from REAL interactions – rather than considering and imaginary ensemble that is defined outside the formalism?

    Ie. the fictive "equivalence class" is replaced by a real construction – as per quantum tomography – essentially from a sequence or history of interactions. And this works fine, as long as the sources are as you say "stationary" or does not change until the process of tomography is completed by margin?

    The real advance is to make the quantum state a property of the source – i.e., of a macroscopic object.

    This makes all talk about fictitious stuff (like ensembles, equivalence classes, multiple worlds, or presumable changes of states of knowledge) obsolete, without a change in the operational content of quantum mechanics.

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