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The charge of an electron is exactly equal in magnitude to that of a proton (2 up quarks plus down quark). What is the theoretical basis for this, or is essentially a fact of nature that is accepted?
I don't think this is correct. This requires the additional assumption that the numbers of protons and electrons in a macroscopic object are nearly equal, but that assumption can't be verified to high precision.Vanadium 50 said:It's known to be very close to equal experimentally. If this weren't the case, matter would blast itself apart by electrostatic repulsion.
No, there is nothing in King's experiment that requires the invocation of the anthropic principle.Dead Boss said:So the answer is anthropic principle?
Vanadium 50 said:It's known to be very close to equal experimentally. If this weren't the case, matter would blast itself apart by electrostatic repulsion. Theoretically, you need the sum of the electric charges of all (types of) particles to be zero if you want your theory to be free of anomalies - i.e. to be predictive.
Vanadium 50 said:It's known to be very close to equal experimentally. If this weren't the case, matter would blast itself apart by electrostatic repulsion. Theoretically, you need the sum of the electric charges of all (types of) particles to be zero if you want your theory to be free of anomalies - i.e. to be predictive.
Phrak said:This can't be right. Assume an inequality. Matter would arrange itself so that total charge was neutral.
Dadface said:Phrak,aren't you just paraphrasing Vanadiums comment?You both seem to be describing the tendency there will be towards neutrality but Vanadium has an event where matter is "blasting itself apart" whereas in your case things seem to be going more gently with matter arranging itself.
mathman said:My own wild guess - it is related to the question of what happened to the anti-matter after the big bang.
Vanadium 50 said:Dadface has put his finger on it - if you want matter to be neutral because of an imbalance of non-equally charged electrons, you end up needing a lot of ions in unionized matter. (that is, not ionized, not matter that hasn't joined a labor union)
tom.stoer said:It is a simple exercise to derive based on the Gauss law that physical states must be charge-neutral. This applies to QED and e.g. to QCD as well.
The idea is as follows:
The Gauss law must not be interpreted as an operator equation as this would violate the operator algebra / commutation relations. Therefore it is translated into a constraint equation for the physical sector of the theory:
[tex]G(x) = \nabla E(x) + \rho(x)[/tex]
[tex]G(x)|\text{phys}\rangle = 0[/tex]
Now one can integrate these equations
[tex]\int_V d^3x G(x) = \oint_{\partial V} dA E(x) + Q[/tex]
[tex][Q - \text{surface charge}]|\text{phys}\rangle = 0[/tex]
For universe with closed topology = vanishing surface the boundary must be equally zero, that means for S³, T³ etc. the total charge must be exactly zero. For an open universe one could introduce "surface charges" but this seems tobe rather unnatural. These surface charges would then cancel the volume charges.
That means that the Gauss law is equivalent to vanishing total charge.
Of course.Phrak said:To oversimplify a bit, charge is defined as the divergence of the electric field rather than a distinct physical quantity ...
What you have is certainly different than this. ...
... Could you possibly explain it in simpler language the rest of us would understand?
bcrowell said:This is less incorrect than your #2, but still incorrect. As I pointed out in #4, the best upper bound does not come from from observations of this type.
Suppose the electron and proton charge differed by one or two parts in 1023. Then the universe may have a few extra protons or electrons (about 1 per gram). Can Gauss's law show that this is not possible? Do measurements of neutral atoms show that this is not true? Does Gauss's Law plus neutron radioactive decay into a proton and electron prove that the magnitudes of electron and proton charges are exactly equal?tom.stoer said:It is a simple exercise to derive based on the Gauss law that physical states must be charge-neutral. This applies to QED and e.g. to QCD as well..
The Gauss law does not say anything regarding the individual portions of the total charge; it only talks about the total charge. The following charge-neutrality condition would be compatible with the Gauss law:Bob S said:Suppose the electron and proton charge differed by one or two parts in 1023. Then the universe may have a few extra protons or electrons (about 1 per gram).
Can Gauss's law show that this is not possible?
Bob S said:Do measurements of neutral atoms show that this is not true?
If applied to the single neutron - yes. I see no mechanism how a neutral neutron could decay into a charged electron-positron pair (plus neutral neutrinos) plus corresponding anti-charge located at spatial infinity.Bob S said:Does Gauss's Law plus neutron radioactive decay into a proton and electron prove that the magnitudes of electron and proton charges are exactly equal?
I don't think that this is true.DrDu said:I feel uneasy with your argument in #13. The Gauss law is only observable in static situations when the time of observation is much larger than the distance of the objects. If you apply it on a cosmological scale, I think it is necessary to take the expansion of space into account.
Why? Tell me where my proof is wrong. Or even better tell me where Lenz et al. (see the "Annals of physics" QED paper) made a mistake.DrDu said:Then prove it in the Lorentz gauge!
tom.stoer said:the Lorentz gauge is well-known in high energy physics / physics of el.-mag waves, but for quantization is has several draw backs (not mentioned in standard textbooks).
I think this is not true. E lives the bosonic sector of the Hilbert space whereas the charge density lives in the fermionic sector. That means you can't solve the equation as an operator equation.DrDu said:This whole operator G becomes ill-defined on a torus for Q ne 0.
...
so [tex] \mathbf{E}=-i \mathbf{K} \rho(\mathbf{K})/K^2+\mathbf{E}_\perp [/tex]
There is no conflict.FizzyWizzy said:So, when I find discussion of Lorentz invariance and Gauss' Law, I am not surprised to find conflict.
tom.stoer said:I think this is not true. E lives the bosonic sector of the Hilbert space whereas the charge density lives in the fermionic sector. That means you can't solve the equation as an operator equation.
I still can't see why there should be something divergent.DrDu said:You may use [tex] \mathbf{E}_{||}+i \mathbf{K} \rho(\mathbf{K})/K^2=0 [/tex] as the constraint.
It can be seen that the longitudinal part of the electric field has to be divergent.
The gauge isn't unsuitable. It's püerfectlywell defined and in the context of canonical quantization it's the gauge that makes most sense! The problem is that most people are not familiar with it as standard QFT textbooks do only talk about Lorentz gauge.DrDu said:My question is whether this really indicates that solutions with Q ne 0 aren't admissible or whether this is an artifact of splitting a non-divergent field E into divergent longitudinal and transverse parts as a consequence of imposing an unsuitable gauge?