Faster than light travel: it either constantly happens or never

In summary, the conversation discusses the concept of faster than light travel and how it is by definition impossible if we assume the relativity of the speed of light. The conversation also explores the idea of movement being relative to a reference and how this affects the concept of faster than. It is also noted that the speed of light being c is fundamental to the theory and logic of massive objects not being able to move at or above c.
  • #1
runeks
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I'd like to share some thoughts I have had on faster than light travel, and hear from you if it really can be that simple. In short, it can be said that if we believe to have proven the relativity of the speed of light, faster than light travel is, by definition, impossible. No formulas, no big thought experiments about me sending messages back in time, just a simple assertion that if we assume relativity of the speed of light to the observer - which, as I spontaneously realize later on in this post, is simply proven - faster than light travel is impossible, by definition.

I mean, how could it be otherwise. If we always measure the speed of light to be c, then how can we ever move faster than it?

And what does moving faster than it mean? It seems obvious to me that movement has to be relative to some reference. In this sense, what does faster than mean? As far as I can tell, for example when overtaking someone on the highway, object A moving faster than object B means that object A is moving away from object C at a faster speed than object B is moving away from object C. Ie. faster than always has to include a third object, because if we only have object A and object B (and A is overtaking B), A is just moving away from object B, nothing else is happening. No one is moving faster in any sense.

This leads us to the seeming fact that the word faster than only makes sense when three object are involved. In the case of light, only two "objects" are involved - something moving and light, and the concept faster than no longer makes any sense.

Of course, if we define "faster than light travel" as based on the speed of movement of an object relative to the light I see, then it's possible. It happens when I turn on a lamp that faces one direction, and some other person walks in the opposite direction at, for example, 5 km/h. He will then be moving, according to my experience, at c+5 km/h.

But I guess my main point is, why are we even discussing "faster than light travel" when relativity seems to have proven that it is impossible? Unless I am misunderstanding something, and the relativity of the speed of light hasn't been proven. Though as far as I know, we've measured clocks on space ships moving relative to us, and confirmed that their clocks have "lost" time, hence the theory must be true. Actually, thinking of it, we can "prove" the relativity of the speed of light just by someone measuring the speed of light of a laser beam, while moving in a car, and me standing and the side of the road measuring the same laser beam.
If we get the same results, the speed of light is relative to the observer and faster than light travel is by definition impossible. Unless we define the travel as relative to me, and the light I see. Then it happens as soon as something moves.
 
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  • #2
The fact that no object with mass can travel faster than c is independent of the fact that light itself also travels at c. Even if light traveled at some other speed, the speed limit of the universe would still be c.

So it's not simply a matter of observing something's speed.
 
  • #3
DaveC426913 said:
Even if light traveled at some other speed, the speed limit of the universe would still be c.
I don't understand. I though c was by definition the speed of light (in a vacuum).
 
  • #4
runeks said:
I don't understand. I though c was by definition the speed of light (in a vacuum).
c is the speed limit of the universe. That is more fundamental than the fact that light (and all other massless emissions) travel at c. There are many things that are not light that are nonetheless limited by c.
 
  • #5
So are you saying that it is possible for light to move at some other speed than "the speed limit of the universe"?

Or are you saying that it is impossible for light to move at some other speed than "the speed limit of the universe"?
 
  • #6
runeks said:
So are you saying that it is possible for light to move at some other speed than "the speed limit of the universe"?

Or are you saying that it is impossible for light to move at some other speed than "the speed limit of the universe"?

I'm saying that the logic in your opening post as far as massive objects moving at or above c seems to depend strongly on the speed of light being c. I'm saying that if light were to move at 770m/s, the massive objects would still be limited by c.

Reformulate your question about faster than c travel with all references to the speed of visible light rays removed.
 
  • #7
runeks said:
I'd like to share some thoughts I have had on faster than light travel, and hear from you if it really can be that simple. In short, it can be said that if we believe to have proven the relativity of the speed of light, faster than light travel is, by definition, impossible. No formulas, no big thought experiments about me sending messages back in time, just a simple assertion that if we assume relativity of the speed of light to the observer - which, as I spontaneously realize later on in this post, is simply proven - faster than light travel is impossible, by definition.

Not by definition but according to theory.

[..] And what does moving faster than it mean? It seems obvious to me that movement has to be relative to some reference. In this sense, what does faster than mean? As far as I can tell, for example when overtaking someone on the highway, object A moving faster than object B means that object A is moving away from object C at a faster speed than object B is moving away from object C. Ie. faster than always has to include a third object, because if we only have object A and object B (and A is overtaking B), A is just moving away from object B, nothing else is happening. No one is moving faster in any sense.
[/QUOTE

"Faster than" is always with respect to a reference system. In mechanics one uses inertial reference systems. According to relativity theory, particles such as electrons cannot be accelerated faster than light in vacuum.

[..] Of course, if we define "faster than light travel" as based on the speed of movement of an object relative to the light I see, then it's possible. It happens when I turn on a lamp that faces one direction, and some other person walks in the opposite direction at, for example, 5 km/h. He will then be moving, according to my experience, at c+5 km/h.

In common language you will measure him to be moving at 5 km/h - without further specification, speeds are wrt the reference system that you use. However, wrt to your reference system, the speed of that person relative to the light rays in opposite direction is c+5 km/h; or, in modern jargon, their "closing speed" is -(c+5) km/h.

But I guess my main point is, why are we even discussing "faster than light travel" when relativity seems to have proven that it is impossible? Unless I am misunderstanding something, and the relativity of the speed of light hasn't been proven.
I would say that it has been fairly well established that c is "an absolute".
Though as far as I know, we've measured clocks on space ships moving relative to us, and confirmed that their clocks have "lost" time, hence the theory must be true.
Strictly speaking, no theory can be said to be true based on limited confirmation - and confirmation is always limited (read Popper for a rather extreme view on this).
Actually, thinking of it, we can "prove" the relativity of the speed of light just by someone measuring the speed of light of a laser beam, while moving in a car, and me standing and the side of the road measuring the same laser beam.
If we get the same results, the speed of light is relative to the observer and faster than light travel is by definition impossible. Unless we define the travel as relative to me, and the light I see. Then it happens as soon as something moves.

Not by definition, as Dave already pointed out. And it's not as simple as you think! The main effect is just a matter of clock synchronization. If both of you synchronize your clocks such that the one-way speed of light is the same in both directions for each of you (so that you disagree with each other), only a very small effect remains to be detected, and I don't think that the speed of a car is enough.

Harald
 
  • #8
harrylin said:
In common language you will measure him to be moving at 5 km/h - without further specification, speeds are wrt the reference system that you use. However, wrt to your reference system, the speed of that person relative to the light rays in opposite direction is c+5 km/h; or, in modern jargon, their "closing speed" is -(c+5) km/h.

Note that when relativistic speeds are involved (and I would definitely call c relativistic) then the Galilean "add the velocities (with proper sign)" rule doesn't work either.
If you have a light beam going at speed c and someone walking at 5 km/h, then the light beam will travel at c relative to that person as well, not c + 5 km/h or c - 5 km/h.
 
  • #9
runeks said:
Of course, if we define "faster than light travel" as based on the speed of movement of an object relative to the light I see, then it's possible. It happens when I turn on a lamp that faces one direction, and some other person walks in the opposite direction at, for example, 5 km/h. He will then be moving, according to my experience, at c+5 km/h.

The velocity is always relative to the observer, or reference frame. He is traveling at 5 km/h, and that is less than c.
 
  • #10
CompuChip said:
Note that when relativistic speeds are involved (and I would definitely call c relativistic) then the Galilean "add the velocities (with proper sign)" rule doesn't work either. [..]

Certainly, the Galilean transformation is not valid in relativity: the speed of light is measured to be c with any standard inertial reference system.
 

FAQ: Faster than light travel: it either constantly happens or never

What is faster than light travel?

Faster than light travel refers to the concept of traveling at speeds greater than the speed of light, which is considered the fastest speed at which anything can travel in the universe.

Is faster than light travel possible?

Currently, based on our understanding of physics, faster than light travel is not possible. According to Einstein's theory of relativity, the speed of light is the universal speed limit and cannot be exceeded.

What would happen if faster than light travel was possible?

If faster than light travel was possible, it would challenge many of our current scientific theories and could potentially open up new possibilities for space exploration and communication. It could also have significant implications for time travel.

Why is faster than light travel often considered impossible?

Faster than light travel is often considered impossible because it would require an infinite amount of energy, which is not currently attainable. Additionally, it would also violate the laws of causality, as traveling faster than light could potentially allow someone to go back in time.

What are some proposed theories for achieving faster than light travel?

Some proposed theories for faster than light travel include warp drive, wormholes, and the concept of tachyons (particles that travel faster than light). However, these theories are still hypothetical and require further research and development to determine their feasibility.

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