Is Apologizing to the Planet Effective in Addressing Global Issues?

[Tsu]

http://hosted.yourimg.com/04/313/03/sorryworld1.jpg

From sorryeverybody.com
http://72.3.131.10/

 

[tribdog]

Boy, I'm glad you two aren't overly melodramatic.

 

[marlon]

This is so sad...

 

[Polly]

It's alright, I can't begin to tell you some of the things we Chinese have done.

 

[humanino]

These pictures are so moving.
Please do not feel guilty for us. We are all in the same boat, you did the last mistake, we might commit the next one.

At least we can still blame him and make fun of him

 

[Moses]

Mmmm...
I do not want to sound evil. However, imgaine the next situation:

Imagine if the world does not accept your "sorry" and did something to our country..will it be wrong? [Well, by saying sorry i think that there is something "wrong" happen in order to oplogize...and thus it is "ok" to get punished..]

Yeah, saying sorry tickles from inside...but i guess it is really ,really late..and more people hate us already [i do not care if terrorist like us or not...but i do not want more attacks because of that guy who sit 4 more years on his chair...]

Hopefully the wise people will not be hurted because if the fools living among them,
Amen!

 

[Tsu]

Did you see the messages on the board from people in the UK, Germany, France, Mexico, Switzerland...? Very nice. At least some of the world now knows some of the faces that DON'T support the shrub. And they seem to truly empathize with our truly pathetic situation.

Moses - I, too, hope that the wise people will not be hurt because of the fools living among us.

 

[Artman]

Sorry Tsu, but this post has bothered me since I read it. I won't say that it's unpatriotic because patriotism can take many forms, but oddly, it borders on treason.

The right of freedom of speech is not a right in many of the countries that will be reading your apology. The creation of a similar site in Afganistan or Iraq speaking out against the leadership would have been met with serious reprecussions, possibly death to the creator, prior to US intervention.

Many of the countries reading your apology owe the world an apology for past acts -- actually, it would be harder to name one that doesn't.

One of the beauties of the election process in the USA is that it is anonymous, so you can say you didn't vote for Bush, but you can't prove it. And really, Kerry wasn't that great an alternative (come on, what do you mean he listened to the president on the situation in Iraq instead of reading the material, he is part of a system of checks and balances, right?).

Like it or not, Mr. Bush is the president of the entire USA, not just those that voted for him. Get over it and move on. Contact your representatives to try and make changes in the way things are now.

 

[Adrian Baker]

Stop whinging! Artman is spot on. What kind of democracy do you guys want - one where the electorate can only get the 'right' answer?? And how do you define 'right' anyway?
Go and read up on what a democracy is and then shut up!

Go protest about the 'elections' in N Korea, Tibet, Zimbabwe...

 

[russ_watters]

Tsu, I can't believe you don't see that you are apologizing for democracy itself. At first, I thought it was funny, now I'm just finding it sad and disturbing.

Being a member of the military at the time, I strongly disliked Clinton, but I never, ever had such thoughts as I'm seeing here.

 

[Tsu]

Artman -
First of all, this is not my site. I saw a spot about it on CNN and thought I'd post it. I'm sorry you have such a problem with it. I'm exercising my right to freedom of speech (while I still have it - it's on its way out you know -
http://www.bend.com/news/ar_view%5E3Far_id%5E3D18712.htm
along with freedom of the press
http://www.theday.com/eng/web/news/re.aspx?re=681A109C-3FB3-4A6E-A0B6-0401FF196F77
and our right to privacy through the lovely Patriot Act).

I'm also sorry that these people exercising their right of freedom of speech bothers you. I love you Artman, but to say that it is unpatriotic is almost laughable. These people are patriots who are ashamed of their government's actions - and want the world to know it. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. Most of the world thinks that what Bush is doing is wrong and we agree with them. Thank God for the internet. It allows the PEOPLE to share themselves. (I love hearing from our PF members from the Middle East and Europe - about what they are going through over there and their perspectives on world events.)

It's not Bush. I've lived with bad presidents before. But the tide is turning. The freedoms we have fought long and hard for are now being taken away, one by one. I'm sorry you can't see that. I see it all around me.

Actually, I take that back. It is Bush to a certain extent. You see, I can see nothing good coming out of a fundamentalist christian nuking it out on a world stage with fundamentalist muslims. I view this as a modern day fundamentalist christian Crusade. Bush himself even used the word right after 9/11. He apparently got his hand slapped for that, as he has never used the word again. (There was quite an uproar about it...) I, personally, want no part of his 'Crusade'.

russ -
Apologizing for democracy? I think not. I am part of 49% of this country who is sad and disturbed by the fact that the other 51% of the country is now able to force their morals and beliefs on the rest of us and the world. Democracy allows us to express this (for now).

You are sad and disturbed by this site? Well, do what I am having to do about the fact that I will have to leave my country to maintain my basic human rights. Get over it.

You didn't like Clinton? Too bad. At least when Clinton lied (and yes, they ALL DO), nobody DIED! The Republicans just pissed off millions of taxpayer dollars in a ridiculous impeachment process that had the rest of the world laughing their a$$es off. Thanks. That fed a lot of hungry children in this country.

You have never seen such thoughts as you are seeing here?THESE 'THOUGHTS' ARE ALL AROUND YOU! The 'other' 49%, you know?? Look at the NUMBERS of people looking to leave this country! LOOK AT YOUR RIGHTS DWINDLING AWAY!

Adrian -
You are rude. (What the heck is 'whinging'?)

 

[Artman]

Artman -
First of all, this is not my site. I saw a spot about it on CNN and thought I'd post it. I'm sorry you have such a problem with it. I'm exercising my right to freedom of speech (while I still have it - it's on its way out you know -
http://www.bend.com/news/ar_view%5E3Far_id%5E3D18712.htm
along with freedom of the press
http://www.theday.com/eng/web/news/re.aspx?re=681A109C-3FB3-4A6E-A0B6-0401FF196F77
and our right to privacy through the lovely Patriot Act).

I'm also sorry that these people exercising their right of freedom of speech bothers you. I love you Artman, but to say that it is unpatriotic is almost laughable. These people are patriots who are ashamed of their government's actions - and want the world to know it. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. Most of the world thinks that what Bush is doing is wrong and we agree with them. Thank God for the internet. It allows the PEOPLE to share themselves. (I love hearing from our PF members from the Middle East and Europe - about what they are going through over there and their perspectives on world events.)

It's not Bush. I've lived with bad presidents before. But the tide is turning. The freedoms we have fought long and hard for are now being taken away, one by one. I'm sorry you can't see that. I see it all around me.

Actually, I take that back. It is Bush to a certain extent. You see, I can see nothing good coming out of a fundamentalist christian nuking it out on a world stage with fundamentalist muslims. I view this as a modern day fundamentalist christian Crusade. Bush himself even used the word right after 9/11. He apparently got his hand slapped for that, as he has never used the word again. (There was quite an uproar about it...) I, personally, want no part of his 'Crusade'.

Part of what bothered me about this post is that I know a lot of people, such as you that I respect very much, who agree with your position on this issue. Inspite of this, I just could not let it go without posting my gut feeling on the site (I know it is not your website).

Please note that I did not call the people at the site unpatriotic, I still think the site borders on treason, but I think the people believe they are acting in the country's best interest. I disagree with their methods. It is certainly within their rights, but I still think it is wrong. If you read the FAQ section of the site, you will see that others must see similar concerns in the presentation.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this subject. (Hope we are still on for the RV ride to Tom's Birthday Bash)

 

[Ivan Seeking]

At times we have considered leaving the states for the sake of adventure. We thought that it might be fun to experience life in another country. Unfortunately we are old enough to be thinking of the years that we have left, and the financial realities of retirement keep nagging as a practical concern. As result we had decided to stay where we are. What's more, we absolutely love our property and expected to spend the rest of our lives right here - it is all that either one of us had ever dreamt of having. Tsu and I used to stand down in the outer pasture and look up the hill at what we have with amazement. Is this really ours? This is too good to be true!

Since we live six miles from a small town in a fairly remote area of Oregon, we have struggled with economic hardships, anti-Californian hatred and disdain and other related prejudices and difficulties. I have been threatened with death and was harassed for a better part of ten years. It got so bad that for a time we even had our phone tapped by a court order. There is no doubt in my mind that for a time my life was in jeopardy, but no one, and I mean no one is going to tell me where I can and can't live - It reached the point where I didn't care if they did kill me. I wasn't leaving.

Now we are moving to Canada. Do you get the point? This was not just an election. This was about what kind of nation this is: A nation driven by fear and hatred, or a nation of greatness? A nation of oppression or a nation of freedom. A nation of Constitutional law or a nation run by thugs and truly evil people. The fact that 51% of this country are either ignorant enough or foolish enough to support this crime against our nation called the Bush machine is more terrifying than any local yahoo with a 12 gauge. Kerry kept saying this is the most important election of your life. This was not just rhetoric; its a fact. The heart of this nation is lost to lies, ignorance, foolishness, and religious extremism.

I can guarantee that there is nothing that I or anyone can say that would insult you as much as I have been offended by the 51%. To use the word treason when referring to a harmless internet protest is an example of why all true patriots are outraged. This is called freedom of speech - remember that little thing called the Constitution?

Our final act as true and loyal Americans who love our country very deeply is to leave. It is all that we have left as patriots. We are leaving because we are afraid of what's happening here. We are leaving because far too many Americans don't value the very things that made this country great. We are leaving because I see far too many parallels to the mind of Nazi Germany. We are leaving because we can't stand to watch it happen.

We are not going to get over it, so get over it.

 

[russ_watters]

Since we live six miles from a small town in a fairly remote area of Oregon, we have struggled with economic hardships, anti-Californian hatred and disdain and other related prejudices and difficulties. I have been threatened with death and was harassed for a better part of ten years. It got so bad that for a time we even had our phone tapped by a court order. There is no doubt in my mind that for a time my life was in jeopardy, but no one, and I mean no one is going to tell me where I can and can't live - It reached the point where I didn't care if they did kill me. I wasn't leaving.

Threatened with death? Clearly, there is more to this than just the election, so I'll let it go.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I was talking about ten years ago. It was about my being an environmentalist.

Like a friend in Portland told me: "An enviromentalist from California driving a Toyota? You might have well put a target on your back."

It is a local hate thing.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I see my point may not have been clear. I thought that there was nothing that could make us leave our home; not even death threats from local nut jobs. The terrorist didn't scare me either. The mentality that got Bush re-elected does scare me.

 

[Les Sleeth]

I can guarantee that there is nothing that I or anyone can say that would insult you as much as I have been offended by the 51%. To use the word treason when referring to a harmless internet protest is an example of why all true patriots are outraged. This is called freedom of speech - remember that little thing called the Constitution?

Our final act as true and loyal Americans who love our country very deeply is to leave. It is all that we have left as patriots. We are leaving because we are afraid of what's happening here. We are leaving because far too many Americans don't value the very things that made this country great. We are leaving because I see far too many parallels to the mind of Nazi Germany. We are leaving because we can't stand to watch it happen.

We are not going to get over it, so get over it.

Wow Ivan I am worried about your decision. When one is upset, it is so easy to take events of the moment and generalize about the whole. I think you are being impatient with the electorate.

9/11 did a number on us. Bush was President then, and his administration went after the bastards. That same resolve (paranoia?) made him go too far with Iraq.

Okay, so we have an election, people were/are still worried about terroism, and they are also not so hot about Bush. But Kerry was horrible (I am a lifelong Democrat, and I didn't even want to vote with him as a choice), and his bizarre wife didn't help either.

The electorate, still afraid, wasn't going to trust Kerry at this time. That's all there is to it. It isn't that America wants "Bushism" or Christian fundamentalism, or war mongering . . . it just is afraid to change to someone who appeared not to know what he was doing.

The fault of losing that election falls squarely on the Democratic party and their choice for a candidate. There's nothing wrong with America, except we are still recovering from post-traumatic shock syndrome. In a way I am glad Kerry didn't get in, it leaves the door open for someone much better in four years.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Protestors in cages, people forced to leave rallys because they were wearing shirts that say "Protect our Liberties", the mother of a dead soldier arrested for a peaceful protest, all but Republicans banned from seeing Bush in Portland...and forced to sign a pledge of allegiance in order to see Bush, reporters being jailed for refusing to reveal their sources, an entirely new class of prisoners created just to avoid the rules of the Geneva Convention. I see the most dangerous abuse of power at every level, The Patriot Act... the list of offenses is so long that it would take some real effort to even list them all. But this is not what scares me. What scares me is the lack of outrage at all of the above. Freedom requires an informed electorate that values the rule of law; not only the law as applied to you and me, but the law as applied to our leaders. What I see is that people just don't care; and they won't until the offenses become so obscene that it becomes intolerable. I just don't see what's going to stop it now. The vote was the safety valve; we elected an enemy of democracy. But this time he will likely appoint three supreme court judges and he will leave a legacy of damage that will take decades to repair, at least.

 

[Les Sleeth]

Protestors in cages, people forced to leave rallys because they were wearing shirts that say "Protect our Libertys", the mother of a dead soldier arrested for a peaceful protest, all but Republicans banned from seeing Bush in Portland...and forced to sign a pledge of allegiance in order to see Bush, reporters being jailed for refusing to reveal their sources, an entirely new class of prisoners created just to avoid the rules of the Geneva Convention. I see the most dangerous abuse of power at every level, The Patriot Act... the list of offenses is so long that it would take some real effort to even list them all. But this is not what scares me. What scares me is the lack of outrage at all of the above. Freedom requires an informed electorate that values the rule of law; not only the law as applied to you and me, but the law as applied to our leaders. What I see is that people just don't care; and they won't until the offenses become so obscene that it becomes intolerable. I just don't see what's going to stop it now. The vote was the safety valve; we elected an enemy of democracy. But this time he will likely appoint three supreme court judges and he will leave a legacy of damage that will take decades to repair, at least.

Yeah, but all the right-wing stuff won't last. And hoping for an informed electorate? So you really think you find it in Canada, eh? (Move back to California - north. Here in the "wine country" you'll find quite the liberal haven . . . too much for me sometimes.)

It isn't that people don't care, it is that people don't know. It's a scary time, and the swing vote is very influenced by the "feel" of things. Kerry was not a good candidate for those swing voters in terrorist times and with a war going on.

Our system is still intact, and we tend to shift back and forth to maintain a balance. Right now the pendulum has swung in favor of conservative, know-what-you-got, over-controlling policies to protect ourselves. But we haven't abandoned our right to change that, not even slightly. So I don't see any reason to panic yet.

Still, Canada is a nice place.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Its not that we expect Canada to be perfect but I don't think you understand the depth of the damage done. Still, I appreciate your position and encouragement, and we are still holding out for a rumored split in the Republican party that will stop Bush. In the time that it takes us to get ready to move, we will know if all hope is lost. I still have a tiny bit of hope...but we are planning to move next year; summer or thereafter. We are filling out the forms this weekend. Gonzales as Attorney General? Hurry, hurry...

and then stuff like this
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/199328_cabinet12.html

hurry Tsu hurry, we got to go...

 

[Tsu]

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this subject.

That works for me!

(Hope we are still on for the RV ride to Tom's Birthday Bash)

AbsoLUTEly! :!)

 

[Ivan Seeking]

One more comment for our conservatives who like labels: I was a die-hard Republican until Bush's father ran for office. This is not about liberal and conservative issues.

 

[JasonRox]

I like the minority government here in Canada. True democracy.

 

[BoulderHead]

For the way I'd prefer to live with my neighbors I don't believe there's any place to run to (without getting off this planet).

Good luck Ivan and Tsu !

 

[Tsu]

Thank you, BoulderHead. I truly appreciate that.

 

[Smurf]

One more comment for our conservatives who like labels: I was a die-hard Republican until Bush's father ran for office. This is not about liberal and conservative issues.

I'd normally brand you a republican for that, but since you've decided to move to Canada I'll let it slide.

I'm kidding! I accually don't know anything about American politics inbetween ww2 and bush sn. excepting a few blurbs here and there about the cold war.

 

[Artman]

Ivan, I don't mean to offend you or Tsu. By definition treason means attempting to overthow your government. This site borders on treason because even though they are not trying to overthrow the government, they would like to see Bush out of office, even though a majority of people (albiet a snall majority) voted him back into the office. I think the people at the site are patriotic because that word can be defined as defending your country and I believe they think that that is what they are doing. By apologizing I think they believe they are improving our relations with the rest of the world. I don't agree that that will be the effect. I also don't consider it to be a harmless website.

You can't make changes from the outside (by moving to Canada). Call your representatives and get them to do their job, to do the checks and balances that they are expected to do, to question the motives of dangerous, liberty-stealing legislation, to actually read the reports they are given before voting on issues. Work to appeal or limit the Patriot Act. Afterall, if Bush is really as dangerous as you think, is Canada, right nextdoor, really safe either?

I'm sorry if my previous posts have offended you, I do believe apologizing has its place, just not in world politics.

Good luck and best wishes to you and Tsu in whatever you decide.

Tsu, Glad we're still on for Toms

 

[revelator]

I like the minority government here in Canada. True democracy.

As do I, much good has come from minority governments in the past. It has also sent a good message to the Liberal party. However, it usually doesn't take very long for our minority governments to topple over.

Ivan, Tsunami, have you decided where in Canada you'd like to be moving to? BC is beautiful, the east coast from where my mother hails is also very beautiful country with a slowpaced lifestyle. My city of Mississauga is great if you like suburbia.

 

[Smurf]

Ivan, I don't mean to offend you or Tsu. By definition treason means attempting to overthow your government. This site borders on treason because even though they are not trying to overthrow the government, they would like to see Bush out of office, even though a majority of people (albiet a snall majority) voted him back into the office. I think the people at the site are patriotic because that word can be defined as defending your country and I believe they think that that is what they are doing. By apologizing I think they believe they are improving our relations with the rest of the world. I don't agree that that will be the effect. I also don't consider it to be a harmless website.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the whole point of Democracy that you CAN change your government? Do most Americans think that? If so that would shed some light on why many have the view that 'we should support him because he's our president'

 

[chroot]

Artman,

If apologizing for Bush is 'treason,' then so was voting for Kerry. Get a grip, pal. To me, it just sounds like the site's message got to you loud and clear.

Tsu, Ivan:

I have many thoughts like you guys. Many of the things this administration has done or is planning to do are literally terrifying to me. I suppose we can just blame local culture and peer pressure for causing otherwise intelligent people like russ to think this administration is a positive thing.

- Warren

 

[Tsu]

Artman

Well, I'll tell ya... I've been working in - and a part of - the democratic process since I was 7 years old and stuffing envelopes for JFK. We spent years working to improve civil rights, rights for the under-represented, and equality of rights... God... and SO much more... We take our civil liberties very seriously. And we are seeing them uravel right before our very eyes. But our Bill of Rights guarantees us freedom of speech and the right to criticize our government (so far). Sadly, your attitude leads me to believe that even this is starting to slip away. Why? Because the very fact that you can think that this site can even come CLOSE to being considered treasonous is one of the very reasons I want to leave. The tide has turned. This country no longer stands for the things I believe in and have spent most of my life working for. So, yeah Artman. That really is pretty freakin' offensive. (Keep it up and I'm kickin' you off the bus in Toledo or Gary! )

As far as it not being a 'harmless website' - well, my hope is that it becomes a very powerful website carrying many powerful messages to and from people all over the world. This is a website about the people.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Many of the things this administration has done or is planning to do are literally terrifying to me.

Did you see the CNN segment about the Evangelical movement?
http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/presents/
This is truly dangerous stuff; most of all because they believe that their interpretation of the Bible is infallible. As a life long Christian I find that much of this has more in common with Hitler than Christ. In a way it mirrors what is happening politically in the US - the essential philosophy is betrayed. "Constitution" is a dirty word, and one should hate or reject, not love all sinners. Also, in one form or another, Evangelcals constitute a huge percentage of the voting population, and growing.

Note also that by the most basic defintion I am considered evangelical. I meet all of the tests listed by leaders of the movement. This is not about religion. This is about power. As I understood the statements made, it is their duty to make us conform to their definition of socially acceptable behavior and norms.

Edit: Of course, all defintions of "acceptable" are taken on faith alone; and according to their local leader.

 

[Les Sleeth]

Did you see the CNN segment about the Evangelical movement? This is truly dangerous stuff; most of all because they believe that their interpretation of the Bible is infallible. As a life long Christian I find that much of this has more in common with Hitler than Christ. In a way it mirrors what is happening politically in the US - the essential philosophy is betrayed. "Constitution" is a dirty word, and one should hate or reject, not love all sinners. Also, in one form or another, Evangelcals constitute a huge percentage of the voting population.

How does one fight a war? Push when you have the advantage, retreat and preserve yourself and resources when you don't. Don't act or make decisions out of despair or panic. Realize momentum swings right and then left, but over the long haul the best way prevails. Dig in, hold your ground, have faith.

America, for all it's problems, is still the most dynamic, pioneering, and freedom-believing place on the planet.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I have been watching this downward slide in a number of ways for most of my life; at least three decades. Over the years, for example, my dad and I have probably had this discussion about the loss of our rights and this neo-Nazi mentality hundreds of times [Edit: and Tsu and I have both worked very hard to stop it]. But from my point of view we have crossed the line. I am officially afraid of my country. Tsu feels the same way.

Watching the news is like watching some low budget Orwellian movie from the sixties; what used to be considered science fiction.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Look, I don't mean to say the situation is hopeless. But looking ahead, for me, I've had enough. We need to think about our own happiness.