Is it immoral to sell kids on the military?

[Townsend]

Bush's abilities have been very clear on this score. He does not recognize the personhood of the boys that have died in this war.

It seems you have a lot more in common with Bush than you thought.

 

[Pengwuino]

Wow... so you're evidence is basically "im right, he's bad". I say this because he has numberous closed door conversations with individual families of soldiers who died and I HAVE heard him talk about people by name. If that's the actions of someone who doesn't see these people as human beings, then I don't know what does. Do you want him to set up funeral plans for every single soldier who died? How bout for everyone who dies in every war on earth? What can convince an ideolog...

 

[pattylou]

That is pathetic at best...

A person’s service in the military has NOTHING to do with the current politics of the world and equating the two is just plain BS...

You didn't answer my questions. I will not accept being on the receiving end of your attack. Answer my questions if you wish to continue a dialog. If you don't wish to consider a dialog, then recognize that you are closing yourself off from American sentiment, on what you seem to think is a very important matter.

 

[Townsend]

You didn't answer my questions. I will not accept being on the receiving end of your attack. Answer my questions if you wish to continue a dialog. If you don't wish to consider a dialog, then recognize that you are closing yourself off from American sentiment, on what you seem to think is a very important matter.

Show me what question of yours I left unanswered.

 

[Gokul43201]

Out of curiosity, what is the official statement that is conveyed to a spouse/child/parent/other family member of someone who dies a collateral death ? Or is there no such statement ?

 

[pattylou]

Wow... so you're evidence is basically "im right, he's bad". I say this because he has numberous closed door conversations with individual families of soldiers who died and I HAVE heard him talk about people by name. If that's the actions of someone who doesn't see these people as human beings, then I don't know what does. Do you want him to set up funeral plans for every single soldier who died? How bout for everyone who dies in every war on earth? What can convince an ideolog...

If you can show where he has referred to fallen soldiers by their name to their parents (rather than for political gain), then I'll gladly take back that piece of evidence. Incidentally, you'll also be restoring something of my faith in the basic decency of the guy.

I haven't seen such behavior, not once.

Can you show me where he has ever talked to a parent about their killed child, by name?

 

[Townsend]

Out of curiosity, what is the official statement that is conveyed to a spouse/child/parent/other family member of someone who dies a collateral death ? Or is there no such statement ?

I don't know but I hope it at least mentions what happened in which case it shouldn't be some rubber stamp letter along with a flag.

 

[pattylou]

It seems you have a lot more in common with Bush than you thought.

We have a lot in common. Why did you think I thought otherwise? And I have a lot in common with you, as well.

 

[Pengwuino]

(rather than for political gain)

What a cop out. If I point to any speech, you'll say its political gain and of course, closed door talks with parents don't exactly get recorded. Why waste my time with such ideological brainwashing...

 

[Pengwuino]

Out of curiosity, what is the official statement that is conveyed to a spouse/child/parent/other family member of someone who dies a collateral death ? Or is there no such statement ?

You mean like.. during a training accident? There probably is a statement... not sure anyone would know it off-hand.

Well I'm not wasting anymore time on this insanity-fest (not directed at you gokul). I think this kinda crap is the reason I vote Republican.

 

[Townsend]

We have a lot in common. Why did you think I thought otherwise? And I have a lot in common with you, as well.

You certainly don't have the decency to think about something beside politics long enough to realize there are good reasons to join the military even if it is during an unjust war.

That is a big enough difference that I don't we are anything alike.

 

[kat]

I'd start with the fact that he never refers to fallen sons by name, to their parents.

An outright lie or you're seriously misinformed.

 

[pattylou]

You are the one who doesn't understand people reasons for joining the military.

I think this is the basis of our disagreement.

I am speaking as a parent. You are speaking as an adult who would/did serve in the military.

I am talking about the "rightness" of me *saying* to my daughters "Joining the military is a good thing." Such a statement would be wrong for me to make. Me advising my kids to join the military is *not* a good thing, because our military's actions are serving primarily to create cost and loss for us in every area.

But, this is entirely different from my daughters coming to their own decision (at adulthood) about what is right and wrong in this regard. If they expressed deep convictions about the rightness of joining the military I would support them in that decision.

The original post was *not* "Is it wrong for kids to join the military?" Rather, the original post was "Is it immoral to *sell* kids on the military?"

It's two different questions. I realize you don't have children, and further that you have not buried any. I expect you recognize that your role as father will be different than your role as independent adult.

(Thank you for answering my questions.)

 

[pattylou]

An outright lie or you're seriously misinformed.

I'm always happy to be shown otherwise.

I'm talking about his conversations to parents. Prove me wrong.

 

[pattylou]

You certainly don't have the decency to think about something beside politics long enough to realize there are good reasons to join the military even if it is during an unjust war.

That is a big enough difference that I don't we are anything alike.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I feel otherwise.

 

[pattylou]

What a cop out. If I point to any speech, you'll say its political gain and of course, closed door talks with parents don't exactly get recorded. Why waste my time with such ideological brainwashing...

It's not a copout. Would you like me to find some discussions between him and parents?

 

[Townsend]

I think this is the basis of our disagreement.
I am speaking as a parent. You are speaking as an adult who would/did serve in the military.
I am talking about the "rightness" of me *saying* to my daughters "Joining the military is a good thing." Such a statement would be wrong for me to make. Me advising my kids to join the military is *not* a good thing, because our military's actions are serving primarily to create cost and loss for us in every area.

No parent wants to lose their kids for any reason the least of which is war. Therefore, I couldn't blame someone for not wanting their kids to join the military for that reason. However, there are people’s kids that are going to go over there and will die regardless of whether or not your kids join the military.

The fact of the matter is that it is much harder for the men and women, many of whom are but kids, in Iraq to do their jobs if they do not have the manpower they need to get the job done. There is a chance that if more soldiers were available, there would be fewer US casualties...

That is the reason that I believe we need to set politics aside on this issue...it is not about supporting the war. It is about supporting your fellow American who is likely in Iraq by duress.

 

[Moonbear]

Wow, this thread got off-topic pretty quickly.

In reading the opening post, I'd say it's wrong to sell them on the military using the reasons given...travel the world, get an education...

If someone enlists for those reasons, and not out of a sense of duty to their country, or desire to protect the country, then they are being misled regarding that enlistment. You don't need to enlist in the military to see the world or get an education. I think it's actually dangerous to the military and other enlistees to have people joining for the wrong reasons. They're not signing up for a Club Med vacation, and will have a lot of trouble adjusting if that's what they are expecting.

 

[Townsend]

If someone enlists for those reasons, and not out of a sense of duty to their country, or desire to protect the country, then they are being misled regarding that enlistment. You don't need to enlist in the military to see the world or get an education. I think it's actually dangerous to the military and other enlistees to have people joining for the wrong reasons. They're not signing up for a Club Med vacation, and will have a lot of trouble adjusting if that's what they are expecting.

That much I would agree with...

I do wish the recruiters were straight with kids instead of feeding them the crap they do.

 

[Townsend]

I'm sorry you feel that way. I feel otherwise.

I'm sorry for saying that and I don't really mean it. It's just that this issue is somewhat personal for me as you can imagine. I still value your opinion as a fellow American and I value your opinion as a person as well.

Regards

 

[Entropy]

I don't approve of military advertizement to kids in public schools, or to people under 21 for that matter. I'm aloud to die for my country but not die of alcohol poisoning?

 

[Townsend]

I don't approve of military advertizement to kids in public schools, or to people under 21 for that matter. I'm aloud to die for my country but not die of alcohol poisoning?

At one time drinking was allowed on base by all military persons who were 18 and older. I also think that if your old enough to die in combat you should be old enough to drink alcohol.

 

[pattylou]

I'm sorry for saying that and I don't really mean it. It's just that this issue is somewhat personal for me as you can imagine. I still value your opinion as a fellow American and I value your opinion as a person as well.
Regards

Thank you Townsend.

I respect your choice. I live near Port Hueneme and Pt. Mugu and so we have a good number of military around here. Some wives were in my Micro class (trying to get into the nursing program, etc). Dear Husband is a fighter jet fanatic (loves thiunderbirds, blue angels, etc, and flies Falcon virtual missions every thursday with a world-wide squadron.) (I know, that kind of stuff doesn't count, but at least it shows you that we don't sit around singing Kumbaya all day.)

Father in law worked at Boeing and Honeywell way back when, and both dad and step-dad were in WWII. My great aunt died in the flu pandemic as she treated WWI soldiers overseas.

It's part of man's history, and there's a brotherhood in military service. I understand about giving your life and standing up for your brother. I'd give my life for something I believe in.

I can't *kill* for something I believe in. (At least I hope I can't.) I believe we're *all* brothers. This is probably one area you and I disagree.

I don't think you can separate politics out of it, but I don't mean to give the impression that there is no other motivation for signing on, and I apologize if it came across that way.

Yours,
Patty

 

[BobG]

I think this is the basis of our disagreement.
I am speaking as a parent. You are speaking as an adult who would/did serve in the military.
I am talking about the "rightness" of me *saying* to my daughters "Joining the military is a good thing." Such a statement would be wrong for me to make. Me advising my kids to join the military is *not* a good thing, because our military's actions are serving primarily to create cost and loss for us in every area.
But, this is entirely different from my daughters coming to their own decision (at adulthood) about what is right and wrong in this regard. If they expressed deep convictions about the rightness of joining the military I would support them in that decision.
The original post was *not* "Is it wrong for kids to join the military?" Rather, the original post was "Is it immoral to *sell* kids on the military?"
It's two different questions. I realize you don't have children, and further that you have not buried any. I expect you recognize that your role as father will be different than your role as independent adult.
(Thank you for answering my questions.)

I can understand that completely. I spent 20 years in the Air Force and I'd do it again.

I'm a little less enthusiastic when one of boys starts talking about joining the Army and not that excited about one of my nephews being in Iraq. When my daughter mentioned she was thinking about getting out of the National Guard because she was pregnant, I said I thought that was a pretty good idea.

It doesn't mean joining the military is the wrong decision. It's probably closer to being rational than my idea about little kids that aren't so little anymore.

 

[Cosmo16]

Who was it that said that the military should not be "sold" to people in schools? What the hell is this BS! I am a junior in HS and they are there. They stand there with fliers. WoW! talk about bad people. Why should everybody not be informed about all of their options. And the military is an option for many people.

P.S. Townsend, I believe the drinking age should be 18 for the same reason.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

If someone enlists for those reasons, and not out of a sense of duty to their country, or desire to protect the country, then they are being misled regarding that enlistment. .

That is my objection. People should understand that the military is for defense [or offense under this administration] and not self improvement. It's a terrible job that somebody has to do, but we would all be better off if no one ever served in any military. It should be sold as nothing more.

 

[moose]

At least we don't have a draft ;)

 

[Townsend]

That is my objection. People should understand that the military is for defense [or offense under this administration] and not self improvement. It's a terrible job that somebody has to do, but we would all be better off if no one ever served in any military. It should be sold as nothing more.

I can understand that... and I would even agree that we need to be honest with people who are joining the military. Something that is clearly not being done.

But that is a whole lot different than

I see commercial after commercial about how the military will do this or that or the other thing for a person - provide education, skills, travel, teach you to look a man in the eye and shake hands firmly, - and I have seen the results - mental problems, alcoholism, a lack of respect for life, cult style brainwashing [patriotism], not to mention four years of utter boredom by most accounts. Oh yes, and then there's the flag draped coffins.

And you have to keep in mind that times do change even with the military. Today’s military has made a lot of improvements on a whole host of quality of life issues. Better gyms, more accessible off duty education and practically a paradigm shift in core values. Things like hazing and sexual harassment is taken very seriously.

If you take a look at what today’s military is all about you might be surprised at what you find out.

By the time I separated I almost didn't want to leave...and it wasn't just because I had picked up rank so don't assume that's it.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The point in part is this: If you want an education, go to school. If you want to travel, travel. If you want a skill, go to a trade school. If you want to offer your life, or possibly end up crippled, blind, in therapy for life, or like one guy that I met that introduced himself every five minutes, all for what the present administration claims is the defense of the nation, fine, but realize that you are doing no less and for no other reason. The rest is fluff and bull. And most people that I've known do not come out of the military with marketable skills. In fact I found a couple of X Navy Nukes sitting next to me in my physics classes. They were no more marketable than I was.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

At least we don't have a draft ;)

In fairness to the soldiers serving in Iraq, we should. How many thousands and thousands of promises - release dates - has Rummy broke in order to support the demand for the war.

 

[revelator]

That's one of the better arguments I've heard in favor of draft.

 

[Cosmo16]

There should not be a draft! That is ridiculous! A draft would only increase deaths, ( due to rushed training), and a give people a very good reason to complain.

 

[Skyhunter]

There should not be a draft! That is ridiculous! A draft would only increase deaths, ( due to rushed training), and a give people a very good reason to complain.

There would be no need to rush their training.

People already have good reasons to complain.

A draft would make the sacrifice for an ill-conceived war be borne by the rich as well as the poor. Kill off a couple of rich white kids in Iraq and then see how much support for the war declines.

 

[Integral]

There would be no need to rush their training.
People already have good reasons to complain.
A draft would make the sacrifice for an ill-conceived war be borne by the rich as well as the poor. Kill off a couple of rich white kids in Iraq and then see how much support for the war declines.

I don't think it would help. The laws will end up have huge loopholes that only require money to get through.

I Have 3 sons in the prime military age (23 - 27) none of them have found it necessary to join. All have managed to complete educations and even find employment in or very close to their chosen fields.

On the other hand, I was 19 in 1969 and had completed my first year of college with a 2.0gpa (yep, I managed to pull it up to that in the final term!) I was out of money and Uncle Sam was drafting anybody that was not in school. My older brother's grades slipped and he had been drafted out of his Junior year at the local university the previous winter.

I had no desire to camp in the jungle or to be shot at by anybody, so in order to have some control over my destiny I enlisted in the US Navy. My hope was to do some traveling and some partying, then after 4yrs I would have the GI Bill to see me through college.

Once in I discovered that what was considered some of the worst possible duty was air craft carriers on the east coast. I volunteered for it... They gave it to me. So after Electronics school in Chicago, I spend over 3 yrs in Caribbean and Mediterranean seas. I achieved my selfish goal of travel in a manner far exceeding any realistic dreams.

Perhaps the biggest payoff of my 4 years service was the electronics training. It has been the core of my employability for the last 30yrs, which has seen only 2 periods of unemployment (4 months each).

Personally I did not care for the military lifestyle. I simply do not have the right outlook on life to do well there. I did my time and I got out. And yes I did complete my first college degree using the GI Bill, I believe that I used every cent available to me.

So I got everything I wanted from the Navy plus something that I did not plan on, a career.

Still in this day and age I am glad that none of my sons have had to follow that path.

If private industry can make job pitches in schools why can't the government? If you are not interested in joining the military, don't. But don't force your choices on your neighbor. For some people that is a good path for others not. But do not block a path just because it is not suitable for you.

 

[Skyhunter]

I don't think it would help. The laws will end up have huge loopholes that only require money to get through.

I agree, the rich and powerful will get to go to the "champagne units".
However, with enhanced communication, a la the internet, it will be harder to cheat with anonymity, like they did in the 60's and 70's. But hey, Bush got away with it, and he only suffered a little bit politically.

I guess that is the benefit of being "born again", all your past sins are washed away. Everyone forgives and forgets about your draft dodging drug using past.

I believe there is true repentance, but it should be accompanied by real penance. Bush in his arrogance is the epitome of someone who used religion to absolve them-self of past trespasses.

What is he going to do for the present ones?

If your born again, do you go to hell twice?

Sorry, just an off topic rant.

A draft today would make the Iraq war "less convenient". The war does not effect enough peoples lives. Not enough Americans share the sacrifice. Why, we even got a tax cut.