Is it immoral to sell kids on the military?

[Bystander]

The teamwork part you got right but it is apparent you haven't spent 13 weeks getting screamed at by 4 Drill Instructors and numerous other senior Marines for breathing the wrong way, lacing your boots wrong, urinating in a toilet instead of a urinal, eating with your left hand instead of your right, not choking someone until they puke, not coming to the position of attention as you fall off a rope strung from a 50 foot tower into a 10 foot deep stagnate pool of water, the list goes on.

You're absolutely correct. I went to the Waynesville. MO Club Med: the "drill hosts" served milk and cookies at 10, 2, and 4; told us bedtime stories and tucked us in every night; took us to movies on weekends and holidays; the list just goes on and on.

As I posted before, the Discovery channel portrays a cute picture of life in Marine Corps Boot Camp, otherwise it would NOT BE ALLOWED TO BE SHOWN. Anyone who has ever been on the receiving end of the aforementioned "instruction" can verify the their particular DI's were the most sadistic SOB's ever created yet after the "indoctrination" there is an odd affection for them. Does THAT sound like a cult?

Nope. You got tricked into motivating yourself to finish something you started, even after you'd discovered it wasn't pleasant. You weren't authorized to think of yourself as anything but a maggot, let alone something special, and you had to make it through the hoops and over the hurdles before they would call you "Marine." They didn't lower the standards one microscopic little bit for you. If you went through "post-all-vol," they even encouraged you to quit. People in my day didn't have that option --- the foul balls, sad sacks, screw-ups, and weak sisters (my apologies to the ladies, but that was the vernacular at the time) were recycled until they got it right, went psycho, or died.

This is true for the most part, however, the ones that remain in harms way WANTS the other to get the ***k out of Dodge and hopes he dosen't have to come back...EVER! They'll usually hope to meet at another time and place but not in the Suck*. *A term of endearment Marines use to refer to their particular branch of service.

Yeah, everyone wanted everyone out in every war. When did "the crotch" become "the suck?" Been seeing/hearing that in the ad for whatever the Gulf '91 flick is.

 

[scott1]

I think so. I see commercial after commercial about how the military will do this or that or the other thing for a person - provide education, skills, travel, teach you to look a man in the eye and shake hands firmly, - and I have seen the results - mental problems, alcoholism, a lack of respect for life, cult style brainwashing [patriotism], not to mention four years of utter boredom by most accounts. Oh yes, and then there's the flag draped coffins.
I came within a few hours of signing a six year active duty commitment as a Nuclear Officer in the Navy, and I am very thankful that at the last possible moment, someone talked me out of joining.

Where did you get these results? Why do you think that you become an acholic when you join milltary all three branches of the milltary have strict acholl polices(it's hard to aim when your drunk if you didn't know that).There might be some mentel problems from basic training since used for pshcological poproues.I don't know where you got the lack of respect of life everyone in the milltary that I talked to that had killed some had a hard time saying that they killed.One of them asumend that they didn't kill them and another just cried for every kill.Why whould the milltary want to go out and some to get these "results" and why whould the milltary want someone to die.Can you please explain to me where you get these "results".Can you prove these results are accurate using the Scientific method.

 

[Art]

Where did you get these results? Why do you think that you become an acholic when you join milltary all three branches of the milltary have strict acholl polices(it's hard to aim when your drunk if you didn't know that).There might be some mentel problems from basic training since used for pshcological poproues.I don't know where you got the lack of respect of life everyone in the milltary that I talked to that had killed some had a hard time saying that they killed.One of them asumend that they didn't kill them and another just cried for every kill.Why whould the milltary want to go out and some to get these "results" and why whould the milltary want someone to die.Can you please explain to me where you get these "results".Can you prove these results are accurate using the Scientific method.

I was just reading about PTSD, as you are interested in the subject I hope you find this useful.

Posttraumatic Stress Disorder and Mortality Among U.S. Army Veterans 30 Years After Military Service.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=16099672&dopt=Citation and this

Drug addicted US troops sent to Scotland for help

Iraq veterans in rehab with NHS patients
By Liam McDougall, Health Correspondent


A PICTURESQUE Scottish hospital is being used by the US military as a base to treat drug and alcohol addicted troops who have fought in Iraq, the Sunday Herald can reveal.

http://www.sundayherald.com/47041

 

[scott1]

I was just reading about PTSD, as you are interested in the subject I hope you find this useful. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=16099672&dopt=Citation and this http://www.sundayherald.com/47041

The PTSD was form vietnam of course there's going to pschological problems the milltary has learned how to treat it after that infact I pretty sure if your involed in any combat in Iraq you have to get counsling.There's only 40 drug/acholo addicts and it never said they were acholoic/drug addict before they went Iraq it just said they where in Iraq. there's still not enogh results to prove that these problems happen in the milltary.Those achool/drug addicts are probally going to get court martial after rehablation.

 

[scott1]

The character that you speak of so fondly is usually found through the experiences of war; say when your best buddy's head explodes in your face.

Where are you getting this data, war movies? If you are getting this data from movies there very inaccurate(they don't even salute right) and your getting your data form entertaiment that has action that usaullay never really happens(like big explosions having your buddy's head explode). You need some accurate siecntific data to prove what and a reasonobile counclusion to prove that it's immoral to sell kids the milltary.
That's fake chacter this is the defftion since obviously don't what means
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=character

As a one-off, I knew a guy who re-upped just so that he could fight in Gulf I. He wanted to use what he had learned. In other words, he wanted to kill people.
Soldiers are trained killers. By defintion this requires a desensitization to killing.

I herd this saying once
"War is sweet to thoes who never experniced it"
It bascially means that if you never went to war and you like it your wrong.
Do you know who your friend is trained to kill Terroist.Have you spoke to him since he went to the Gulf did he say he kill anyone and if he did he like it.

 

[Echo 6 Sierra]

When did "the crotch" become "the suck?" Been seeing/hearing that in the ad for whatever the Gulf '91 flick is.

At least since August 24, 1984 at about 2 o'clock in the morning in San Diego at the Recruit Training Depot while my size 12's were doing their best to stay on the pretty yellow footprints. God Bless Lewis Burwell Puller Jr. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesty_Puller

 

[Bystander]

This has nothing to do with misleading young people into making bad decisions.

You say, "Nothing," and I say, "Everything."
Impasse.
How about measuring "degree of misdirection" in terms of "due diligence" on the part of the "buyer" and actual contract performance on the part of the seller?

The question was so obvious as to be rhetorical.

Obvious to whom? The membership of the cult of brainwashed liberals? If you make the simple statement that boot camp is like cult brainwashing
in your opinion,
then people are free to agree or disagree. As an opinion, the point is irrelevant to discussion of your original question in this thread.
If you ask people to compare boot camp and cult brainwashing, you should expect to get comparisons. Such comparisons are still irrelevant to the discussion of your original question, but you really do need to address them since you brought them up.
You then announce that you are equating boot camp and cult brainwashing rhetorically --- are you "immorally" attempting to "mislead" forum members into accepting opinion as fact?

I stated the purpose of boot camp - survival and success in battle. This happens by making people killing machines that take orders like robots.

You have stated that you have no experience of basic training.
Training doctrines evolve over time, "natural selection" favoring the doctrines employed by successful military organizations. The identification and characterization of "successful organizations," and of the training doctrines they employ is a major topic of military science, a contentious topic, and a topic lacking consensus. There is a further complication of the problem in that training doctrines are seldom synchronous with tactical and strategic doctrines, and tactical and strategic doctrines are seldom reflections of tactical and strategic realities.
The only military organization arguably applying a training doctrine that abandons cultural mores would be the FFL --- and, even it has not abandoned the mores of the culture it serves, only those of some of the cultures from which personnel are recruited.
"The only good injun is a dead injun," and "The Japanese language will be spoken only in hell" reflect "Manifest Destiny" and Roosevelt's insistence on unconditional surrender. Your "robot killing machines" got not only cultural approval, but acclamation. What your "robot killing machines" thought of the acclamation and the culture might surprise you.

Instead of the military or the moonies, how about school and a job? I would wager that I learned much more on the job working on CAT scanners and MRI's, and learning about the medical industry - the real world - than I would have in the bowels of a carrier.

?

Its called objectivity. I never implied that we don't need a military.
This is all about recognizing what the military is really designed to do.

Break things and kill people. AND, as an incentive to enlistment and personnel retention, education and self-improvement are offered. Do they deliver on their contractual obligations? Yes. Do they hold peoples' feet to the fire if they (the individuals) choose to welsh on the contract? Depends on the circumstances.

It is not a place for education or self improvement.

You're willing to have people do the dirty jobs that have to be done, and you're going to deny them the benefits the military is offering them for doing what you won't dirty your hands doing?

When not misused,

What is the point of hedging? Can't you say, "The military exists for the defense of the nation?" If you think it's misused at times, say "but, it is misused at times." It's another irrelevant tangent to your original "question." All I wanted to know was whether you really understood the necessity.

it is for the defense of the nation. So if people want to join out of patriotism or duty, sadly, we need people who are willing to do this.

What do you mean "we need," white man? You're the one who needs "robot killing machines" to defend him.

But my point is this:

The question in the thread title has now become a "point." Can't you just title the thread "I think recruiting ads are immoral?"

Don't take the chance of throwing away your life for a song and dance.

"War to end all war?" Or, "Make the world safe for democracy?" Maybe, "Ask not...?"
Great big boldface underlined
AMEN
to that. Damned democrats are forever confusing things by spouting this kind of nonsense rather than understanding what national interests are actually at stake, stating those interests, and taking appropriate actions.

The military is not just a college with uniforms. And parents know all about the military. There is nothing new about the lure for education. The reason the Army tries so hard to make parents seem ignorant is that parents know what I'm saying is true: The military is a good place to ruin your life.

Now the ads are immoral for undermining parent-child relationships. Maybe 5-10 minutes a day of recruiting ads if the kid spends the entire day glued to the TV set? Compare this to 12-13 years, 8-9 mos. of 5 day wks. a year, 6-7 hrs. a day in the public schools: "It's a parent problem. Parents just won't get involved. Tell your parents to vote for ______, or we won't be able to teach you how to put condoms on bananas next year." Who's undermining parent-child relationships?
We are discussing legally defined adults. They have voting rights. They are not obligated to obtain parental consent. They are big boys and girls now, and they can make their own decisions. They really do not need Ivan to protect them.

You completely missed the point.
He didn't re-up to return to Kuwait for his comrads. In fact he had never been there.

I did not say "return." I referred to a sense of loyalty (assumed by me) to the people he knew who were still "in," and going.

He just wanted to see some action. Those were his words.

I've been known to yank liberals' chains with similar remarks. My interpretation of the anecdote differs from yours, but I wasn't there.

If you call the desire to kill, character, then thank you for demonstrating my point.

To what "demonstration" do you refer? Have I expressed "desire to kill" at any time in this thread?

The character that you speak of so fondly is usually found through the experiences of war; say when your best buddy's head explodes in your face.

Paraphrasing G. C. Scott's "Patton?" Or, is this an Alda knock-off of "Patton?" Character is knowing, or finding out, what has to be done and doing it before someone's head gets blown off. It's too late after the fact, "they" got the drop on you, and you lost.
This is the point in a hot contact where your "robot killing machines" wind up dead. This is the point in a hot contact where people with character enough to get through basic depend on that character to gain control of themselves, and then the situation.
Such situations do not develop character --- they test it --- to and beyond destruction.
No. You don't get any details. I did my year. I got out. I know fifteen people who didn't.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Boy, I forgot all about this one...

You say, "Nothing," and I say, "Everything."
Impasse.
How about measuring "degree of misdirection" in terms of "due diligence" on the part of the "buyer" and actual contract performance on the part of the seller?

Obvious to whom? The membership of the cult of brainwashed liberals? If you make the simple statement that boot camp is like cult brainwashing

Obviously, when I see that cult techniques are the same used in boot camp, which I did describe in brief. And the fact the people come out of boot camp changed. is no secret, it is part of the purpose of boot camp, and in itself is proof of what I say, but the fallacy is to assume that they have changed for the better in all ways. But why do you need to resort to personal attacks? First of all, historically I am a Republican. Bush made me a Democrat, so basically all of your anti-liberal rhetoric, or whatever you think are arguing against, is nothing more than smoke - the sixties are over. As for the rest, you personal bias continues to blind you to the fact that I never said we don't need soldiers, nor have I ever said that wars can always be avoided. But I do object to all of the rhetoric used to misguide young people into making bad decisions with their lives. And most of all, I find the glorification of war the most offensive of all. And that's what people do. They glorify war by waiving the flag in front of impressionable youngsters while filling their heads with this silly "look a man in the eyes" garbage, and all for a quota. As I have said, if someone wants to join up to fight a war that they believe is needed, I think it's terrible that anyone should have to do this, but we need people who will. When I was at that age, I was registered for the draft and fully expected to go to either Cambodia, as that was looking bad for a time, or the middle east, which was a problem as always, in addition to nearly joining voluntarily a couple of years later. So before you start attacking anyone and putting them in your nice little box, you should to see who they are first.

In the news

Day to Day, December 29, 2005 · A disagreement over a sign in a shop front in Duluth, Minn., is an example of divided national opinions on the war in Iraq. Farai Chideya talks with Scott Cameron, a Vietnam veteran who put up a sign tallying the number of dead and injured military personnel in Iraq, and Sgt. Gary Capan, an Army recruiter who works next door to Cameron and wants the sign removed.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5074194&ft=1&f=1014

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I'm sure that a sign counting the dead in Iraq, in the window next door, does put a damper on the sales pitch.

 

[Bystander]

Boy, I forgot all about this one...
(snip)

... and just stumbled over it halfway down page 4. Uh-huh.

 

[edward]

Brain Washing, not just for boot camp anymore

The problem here is that the legal age of consent is 18. The recruiters however are allowed to begin their spiel on a young person at a much earlier age. And let's remember, young people have an inherant tendency to take chances that really doesn't resolve itself until the mid twenties.

Add to that the fact that the No Child Left Behind ACT, requires High schools to give military recuiters the personal information (addresses phone numbers ect.)of all students, or the school risks losing federal funding.

In recent years recuiters have been frequenting school lunch rooms, pitching their line in Malls, and calling young people at home. Most recently it has been discovered that recuiters have been allowing young people to play the same video games that are used in military combat training. Are 16 year old kids ready for this type of tactic? I personally don't think so.

Is it the responsibility of the parents to make the final deciscion? Yes , but they can not stop a determined child who is over the age of 18 from doing anything, even though that childs brain washing began at age 16 or even earlier.

In years past it was rare that a recruiter even talked to a high school student except on "career day". Now it is every day. There is no fast talking, sentence twisting, word bending approach that can change the fact that military recruiters have been given, at the very least, immoral access to children.

I'll give you a good example. There was a young girl in my neighborhood, let's just call her Sam for short. Sam was petite, barely five feet tall, georgeous, A dark haired drum major, and a bit of a Tom boy. She was influenced by a recruiter who started visiting her school shortly after she turned 17. Under his wonderful guidance this adorable young person joined the Army after graduation just as soon as she had turned 18. Five months later Sam came home from Iraq in a flag drapped coffin. Her head had been blown off by an IED.

As for the veracity of the info above in Bold type ,many links have been posted previously, and I am not going to bother to prove the same information twice.