Is Pilot Error to Blame for Icing Condition Accidents?

In summary: BAM.I'm pretty sure they were just sitting in their seats until all of a sudden WHAM you're dead. As a passenger, you wouldn't know what hit you. All you see is gray haze out the window, so you don't have a horizon reference to say "uh oh, were going straight into the ground". The ground would just suddenly appear out your window when you are probably 100 feet in alittude, which would probably then take another half a second before you crash into the earth. By the time you register something bad is going to happen you would be dead before you had time to internalize it. (This is why it's bad for the pilots. They only realize their attitude relative to the Earth RIGHT
  • #1
Cyrus
3,238
17
Don't fly into known icing conditions.

http://d.yimg.com/img.news.yahoo.com/util/anysize/400,http%3A%2F%2Fd.yimg.com%2Fa%2Fp%2Fap%2F20090213%2Fcapt.47ac24e5a3de43cf8e46f8a78db23205.plane_into_home_nydd113.jpg?v=2

Pilot error.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090213/ap_on_re_us/plane_into_home

Families of the passengers should sue the pant's off the airline.

What a waste of a lovely airplane! :cry:

http://www.chc.ca/images/Dash8.jpg

My friend flies one, I'm glad he wasn't the captain!
 
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  • #2
I saw this on the news last night. A very sad story...
 
  • #3
Cyrus said:
Don't fly into known icing conditions.

Especially with a full load of passengers.
 
  • #4
The landing gear was lowered one minute before the end of the flight at an altitude of more than 2,000 feet, and 20 seconds later the wing flaps were set to slow the plane down, after which the aircraft went through "severe pitch and roll," Chealander said.

The crew raised the landing gear at the last moment, just before the recording ran out. No mayday call came from the pilot.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hpSZzqkNMwZvX2xrejSSUOyBGCYgD96BC2DG0

It looks like he stalled or close enough to it that he couldn't recover. I wonder if the plane had been on autopilot during the flight?
 
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  • #5
You'd think a turbo-prop would have better maneuverability?
 
  • #6
WhoWee said:
You'd think a turbo-prop would have better maneuverability?

Not flying in ice I woudln't. I would expect it to do exactly what it did, fly straight into the ground. I'm amazed he flew with ice on the windsheild! He should have noticed sluggish controls long before it got that bad, unless it was a sudden - rappid build up of ice. In which case they had no chance of recovering.
 
  • #7
I guess the question is what SHOULD be done if ice is detected in-flight.
 
  • #8
WhoWee said:
I guess the question is what SHOULD be done if ice is detected in-flight.

Hit the de-ice button (if equipped), and fly away from the ice.
 
  • #9
Cyrus said:
Hit the de-ice button (if equipped), and fly away from the ice.

If it's that simple...I hope they get their collective butts sued off.
 
  • #10
It depends. It could have happened so fast they had no idea until it was too late. (But I don't think it builds up that fast. I think it takes a few minutes). Also, they could have hit the switch but the system failed to work.
 
  • #11
As you said...how COULD he fly with ice on the windshield and not know?
 
  • #12
Ever shovel your drive way when it's iced over? -not snow, but ice. Imagine what all that extra weight all over the wings does. It breaks your back just to shovel 10ft of side walk. A wing is 30+ feet long.
 
  • #13
From the yahoo page linked by Cyrus:

The flight data recorder indicated the plane's de-icing equipment was in the "on" position, but Chealander would not say whether the equipment was functioning.
 
  • #14
These planes have pneumatic boots on the leading edges that can be cycled to crack off ice that is forming. Since the planes are built in Canada and are used there, they ought to be robust against some degree of icing.
 
  • #15
Did you all see that the widow of a 911 victim was on the plane? She met with Obama last week.
 
  • #16
Ivan Seeking said:
Did you all see that the widow of a 911 victim was on the plane? She met with Obama last week.

I just read an account of her last conversation with her husband...she was on the phone with him, they said their good-byes, and then a loud explosion and a "whoosh" then nothing...I can't imagine her feelings.
 
  • #17
Cyrus said:
It depends. It could have happened so fast they had no idea until it was too late. (But I don't think it builds up that fast. I think it takes a few minutes). Also, they could have hit the switch but the system failed to work.

The problem coming to light is that this craft does not have an automatic deicing system. There has been legislation in process for 15 years that would require automatic deicing - ever since another plane like this crashed due to ice - but it has never been passed.
 
  • #18
WhoWee said:
I just read an account of her last conversation with her husband...she was on the phone with him, they said their good-byes, and then a loud explosion and a "whoosh" then nothing...I can't imagine her feelings.

I'm pretty sure they were just sitting in their seats until all of a sudden WHAM you're dead. As a passenger, you wouldn't know what hit you. All you see is gray haze out the window, so you don't have a horizon reference to say "uh oh, were going straight into the ground". The ground would just suddenly appear out your window when you are probably 100 feet in alittude, which would probably then take another half a second before you crash into the earth. By the time you register something bad is going to happen you would be dead before you had time to internalize it. (This is why it's bad for the pilots. They only realize their attitude relative to the Earth RIGHT BEFORE they fly into the mountain, at which point pulling up is futile). You are flying along and then all of a sudden the mountain appears out of the clouds infront of your windscreen. 3...2...1...you're dead. Pilot error.
 
  • #19
I'm not ready to throw this on pilot error just yet. A european airline grounded their entire fleet of the exact same aircraft because of this very problem. Also, I heard a report of the weather balloon data from that airport and they had icing conditions up to and above 30,000 ft. The pilot requested three, IIRC, altitude adjustments from the tower trying to lower altitude on approach. The big question now is did they know in their pre-flight weather brief of the icing conditions? I would think yes, but in that area with lake effect weather so prominent it could have snuck up on them very quickly.

There is not enough information to start throwing blame yet.
 
  • #20
Cyrus said:
I'm pretty sure they were just sitting in their seats until all of a sudden WHAM you're dead.

I presume WhoWee was talking about the conversation between the woman and her husband when he was on one of the 9-11 planes.
 
  • #21
cristo said:
I presume WhoWee was talking about the conversation between the woman and her husband when he was on one of the 9-11 planes.

Ah, yes. I see what you mean now.
 
  • #22
Ivan Seeking said:
The problem coming to light is that this craft does not have an automatic deicing system. There has been legislation in process for 15 years that would require automatic deicing - ever since another plane like this crashed due to ice - but it has never been passed.
It was an ATR-72 (American Eagle) that crashed near Gary, Indiana - Oct 31, 1994 - due to icing on the wings. It did not have de-icing equipment. 68 killed

I believe some Dash 8's have deicing equipment, as turbo mentioned the rubber boot on the leading edge. I've seen them in operation on flights I've been on, and I've landed in snow on a Dash 8.

As I understand it, the crew reported icing on the windshield on the approach. They were flying out of Newark, where the weather was above freezing, but northwest in Buffalo, the conditions were foggy and below freezing.

The plane was flying under contract to Continental Airlines. The plane is operated by Colgan Air, Inc., a wholly owned subsidiary of Pinnacle Airlines Corp.
MANASSAS, VA--(MARKET WIRE)--Feb 13, 2009 -- Continental Connection flight number 3407, operated by Colgan Air, Inc., was involved in an accident at about 10:20 p.m. EST today while the aircraft, a Bombardier Dash 8 Q400, was operating between Newark Liberty International Airport and Buffalo Niagara International Airport.
http://biz.yahoo.com/iw/090213/0474070.html
http://biz.yahoo.com/iw/090213/0474165.html


Sept. 11 widow killed in Buffalo plane crash
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090213/ap_on_re_us/plane_into_home9_11_widow_13
Beverly Eckert was the 9/11 widow who was killed. She was traveling to a family function to observe what would have been her husband's 58th birthday. I imagine this is a huge tragedy to the families.
 
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  • #23
FredGarvin said:
I'm not ready to throw this on pilot error just yet. A european airline grounded their entire fleet of the exact same aircraft because of this very problem. Also, I heard a report of the weather balloon data from that airport and they had icing conditions up to and above 30,000 ft. The pilot requested three, IIRC, altitude adjustments from the tower trying to lower altitude on approach. The big question now is did they know in their pre-flight weather brief of the icing conditions? I would think yes, but in that area with lake effect weather so prominent it could have snuck up on them very quickly.

There is not enough information to start throwing blame yet.
We had warm weather Thursday, but it was expected to change from the 40's to the 20 during the evening. When the flight took off, it might have been OK, but the weather could have changed during the flight. We'll have to wait for the NTSB to determine cause, and what did and did not happen with regard to icing/de-icing.
 
  • #24
The thing with ice build up is that you should definitely see a noticable change in the handling qualities of the aircraft. It will get more and more sluggish/unresponsive. If this starts to happen, you know you have an icing problem. I wonder if they were just flying it on autopilot the whole time and never 'felt' the controls? I feel like they should have diverted to another airport.
 
  • #25
Astronuc said:
I believe some Dash 8's have deicing equipment, as turbo mentioned the rubber boot on the leading edge. I've seen them in operation on flights I've been on, and I've landed in snow on a Dash 8.

Automatic deicing was the point. If the pilot doesn't happen to notice in time, as was apparently the case here...
 
  • #26
cristo said:
I presume WhoWee was talking about the conversation between the woman and her husband when he was on one of the 9-11 planes.

Sorry for not being clear...her husband was in one of the towers. He called when the first plane hit and he called her and said he was ok...it hit the other tower. Then his tower was hit and they talked extensively. He tried to walk down and wasn't able to get past the fires/smoke. She watched the coverage and at some point told him they weren't going to be able to reach him.

That's when the said their good-byes and then she heard his demise...the story really got to me.
 
  • #27
Cyrus said:
The thing with ice build up is that you should definitely see a noticable change in the handling qualities of the aircraft. It will get more and more sluggish/unresponsive. If this starts to happen, you know you have an icing problem. I wonder if they were just flying it on autopilot the whole time and never 'felt' the controls? I feel like they should have diverted to another airport.

From what I saw on the news last night, they passed through some freezing rain just before landing. The deicing switch was found in the on position.
 
  • #28
Ivan Seeking said:
From what I saw on the news last night, they passed through some freezing rain just before landing. The deicing switch was found in the on position.

If it was that close to the airport, the airport is supposed to warn them about adverse weather and shut down the airport.
 
  • #29
Another complaint that I heard was that the deicing system uses antiquated technology that was developed in the 1930s.

When I hear something like that, a caution flag always goes up as old technology is often still the best option. But "expanding bladders" does sound pretty hokey.
 
  • #30
Cyrus said:
If it was that close to the airport, the airport is supposed to warn them about adverse weather and shut down the airport.

From what I understood, they passed through this just a few minutes before crashing.
 
  • #32
Ivan Seeking said:
When I hear something like that, a caution flag always goes up as old technology is often still the best option. But "expanding bladders" does sound pretty hokey.

The passengers don't count!
 
  • #33
CNN was just discussing the weather conditions that night. It seems that they had cold air with blasts of moisture coming from the South.
 
  • #34
There is a guy who ownes one of these at the airport I fly out of [actual pic]:

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Unti...hoto_id_DESC_&prev_id=1237550&next_id=1237448


(He also owns this one in the picture [it's an actual picture of it]...mmmmmm S76 sexy drool droool drool)
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Unti...hoto_id_DESC_&prev_id=1286667&next_id=1281251

But because the runway is not very long, they have to go to the very end and take off with less than fully fueled to get off the ground. They nearly use the entire runway and can't take off in rain or they won't make it. If that plane ever looses an engine on takeoff its going straight into the trees at the end of the runway at 120+ knots and exploding.
 
  • #35
The commuter plane that crashed near Buffalo was on autopilot when it went down in icy weather, indicating that the pilot may have violated federal safety recommendations and the airline's own policy for flying in such conditions, a federal official said Sunday.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hpSZzqkNMwZvX2xrejSSUOyBGCYgD96C75700

You may be able in a manual mode to sense something sooner than the autopilot can sense it," said Steve Chealander of the National Transportation Safety Board, which also recommends that pilots disengage the autopilot in icy conditions.

Automatic safety devices returned the aircraft to manual control just before it fell from the sky, Chealander said.


http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=6882782

I had a gut feeling about that.
 
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