US Vice President Cheney Accidentally Shoots Fellow Hunter

[Cyrus]

Not really. He was partly at fault as well. He should not have been standing there. They were both at fault.

 

[scott1]

What's new about this Adrew Jackson killed a person

Jackson's wife, Rachel, died of a heart attack just 2 months prior to his taking office as President. She had supposedly divorced her first husband, Col. Lewis Robards; but there were "questions" about the legality of the divorce. Jackson deeply resented attacks on his wife's honor; he killed Charles Dickinson in a duel over a horse-racing debt and an insult to his wife on May 30, 1806. Jackson was also injured during the duel, and the bullet was so close to his heart that it could never be safely removed. It caused him considerable pain for the rest of his life. Jackson blamed John Quincy Adams for Rachel's death, because of the marital scandal being brought up in the election of 1828. He felt that this had hastened her death, and never forgave Adams.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Jackson#Family_and_personal_life
Same with Burr

The duel was the final skirmish of a long-lived conflict between Democratic-Republicans and Federalists. The conflict began in 1791, when Burr captured a Senate seat from Philip Schuyler, Hamilton's father-in-law, who would have supported his federalist policies (Alexander Hamilton was Secretary of the Treasury at the time). When the electoral college deadlocked in the election of 1800, Hamilton's maneuvering in the House of Representatives caused Thomas Jefferson to be named President and Burr Vice President. In 1800, Burr published "The Public Conduct and Character of John Adams, Esq., President of the United States," a document highly critical of Adams, which had actually been authored by Hamilton but intended only for private circulation. When it became clear that Jefferson would drop Burr from his ticket in the 1804 election, the Vice President ran for the governorship of New York instead. Hamilton campaigned viciously against Burr, who was running as an independent, causing him to lose to Morgan Lewis, a Republican endorsed by Hamilton. Some say Hamilton believed that Burr had entertained a Federalist secession movement in New York.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamilton-Burr_duel

This is simpily your everday aveage poltics.There's nothing new it's just "accident" in some countries they kill the other presidential canidates.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Whittington's apology is more than a little mind-boggling, isn't it?

Not at all. How can this be made into positive spin for Cheney? Sympathy. I predicted this but never posted. Still, how else could they play this?

 

[Cyrus]

uh, come again? (scott1)

Not at all. How can this be made into positive spin for Cheney? Sympathy. I predicted this but never posted. Still, how else could they play this?

Give me a break. Two men who respect each other and are friends and both say they are sorry for being at fault. My freaking god, people taking account for their actions and you call it a cover up. Not talking to the media as soon as possible and you call it a cover up. You guys hold unfair double standards. Maybe he should just throw himself in jail to please the rest of you, but I am sure you would find some way to call that a cover up for his guilt too. just

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Not really. He was partly at fault as well. He should not have been standing there. They were both at fault.

Frankly, I think that is all a bunch of bull and they know it. Cheney was right when he said that he pulled the trigger so he is responsible. This is always the first rule in using a gun. But that doesn't make Cheney a bad guy in all of this, in itself. At best it does seem to show a momentary lapse in judgement. You don't fire unless you know the shot is clear. That is unavoidable here.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Does anyone else think that Bush looked uncomfortable when making his comments on this? I keep thinking of what Gergen was saying. He expects to see Rice up front again.

I wonder if Cheney is already reduced to a fixture on his way out; but not over this, of course.

 

[Cyrus]

Does anyone else think that Bush looked uncomfortable when making his comments on this?

Well, Cheney went behind his back and dealt with the issue in regards to the media based on his own group of people, and not the presidents group of people. That was his fatal error. He side stepped the president.

You don't fire unless you know the shot is clear. That is unavoidable here.

Yes, we all know that. He thought the shot was clear or he obviously would never have taken it (The guys been shooting all his life, do you think he's an amateur?). It was a bunch of small mistakes that lead up to one big mistake. Cheney ant going no where.

 

[GeorginaS]

cyrus, yes, I think the guy is not a "skilled" gun person at all. It doesn't take much skill to shoot fish in a barrel. And shooting wingless, tame quail, who have been raised for the purpose of being released into an enclosed area so that gutless people can drive up and shoot them aren't "skilled folks" in my eyes.

Yes, Ivan, the sympathy spin was inevitable. On the Daily Show with Jon Stewart the other evening, they showed the bit about Cheney saying how it was the worst day of his life. Jon Stewart leaned forward, chin in hands and said, pretty much, "Aww, yes, it's all about you. Poor you. What a bad day you had. Mind you, it was no where near as bad as the day of the guy who you shot in the face."

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Yes, we all know that. He thought the shot was clear or he obviously would never have taken it

No such thing as thinking the shot was clear. You either know or you don't. There is a difference between thinking and knowing. Also, a little googling would reveal that experienced hunters are the ones most likely to shoot someone by accident. They get careless.

My point is that this is just a ploy for the sympathy card for Cheney. It helps make him look like a victim.

 

[Cyrus]

Yes, I agree that he got careless. How is making a public apology a ploy for sympathy? That’s called taking responsibility. I thought he did the right thing to take the blame for it. Any descent human being should feel sorry for a guy that feels bad for mistakenly shooting his friend. I would have been more offended had he not publicly taken responsibility and apologized. He gave an honest heartfelt appology, and so did his friend. They handeled it quite well in that regard.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I mean all this businsess about apologizing to Cheney and placing partial blame on Whittington.

 

[Cyrus]

Why, the guy was where was not supposed to be! Does that absolve him from all blame? Common, let's be reasonable here, Whittington was NOT where he was supposed to be. That makes him part of the problem.

 

[russ_watters]

Keeping to friendly territory as always, Cheney was interviewed on FOX News.

Well, I suppose if Cheney were a Democrat and wanted to be on friendly territory he could have just picked some names out of a hat instead. Being a Republican, his choices were more limited.

How is it a shocker - or even wrong that he wanted the softest interview possible?

 

[Cyrus]

Beats the hell out of me Russ. They want to scapegoat him on anything possible, that's the problem. I don't like the guy, but I would not hold something like this against the man. It was an honest accident. People want to make something out of nothing and hold double standards, pathetic.

 

[russ_watters]

I basically agree with you on this issue, but want to clarify one thing:

Just because something is an accident doesn't mean there can't be criminal charges or civil litigation.

I don't think either will happen in this case, but we'll just have to wait and see if the investigation turns up anything or if Cheney's buddy decides to sue him.

 

[turbo]

Yes, we all know that. He thought the shot was clear or he obviously would never have taken it (The guys been shooting all his life, do you think he's an amateur?). It was a bunch of small mistakes that lead up to one big mistake. Cheney ant going no where.

In a recent press release it was stated that Cheney was an experienced hunter and had been hunting for at least 12 years. Being squired around at private hunting preserves is somewhat different from "hunting" - it's more like a golf outing with firearms.

 

[turbo]

Why, the guy was where was not supposed to be! Does that absolve him from all blame? Common, let's be reasonable here, Whittington was NOT where he was supposed to be. That makes him part of the problem.

Where he was not supposed to be? Everybody has got to be somewhere, and when you're hunting in a group you as a hunter are responsible for being aware of the locations of the other parties. If you are hunting birds and you are returning to the group after retrieving a bird, you do not holler "hey, I'm coming back!" and spook a covey that your companions are going to flush. You return quietly to the group and resume the hunt. If a member of your party has fallen back to retrieve a bird, you do not swing around and shoot in his direction. The victim is not to blame for this incident, despite Armstrong's statement about Whittington not announcing his presence - that is just lame.

 

[Orefa]

In related news, I heard on TV that no charges will be laid against the VP. It was not know if the victim will be suing or not. My guess is no.

 

[Moonbear]

I basically agree with you on this issue, but want to clarify one thing:

Just because something is an accident doesn't mean there can't be criminal charges or civil litigation.

I don't think either will happen in this case, but we'll just have to wait and see if the investigation turns up anything or if Cheney's buddy decides to sue him.

Exactly! Actually, the significance of Whittington's apology, as absolutely absurd as it was (I'm sorry sir, I didn't mean to be in the way of your gun ), is that it indicates Whittington is pubicly stating he's probably not going to sue Cheney over it, so at least civil litigation isn't likely. There was some reason to question this on the part of the public. In the Fox news interview, they asked Cheney if he considered Whittington a friend or acquaintance, and Cheney said he's an acquaintance. In other words, they're not necessarily best buddies and no guarantee Whittington was going to protect his best buddy's back by not suing.

Why, the guy was where was not supposed to be! Does that absolve him from all blame? Common, let's be reasonable here, Whittington was NOT where he was supposed to be. That makes him part of the problem.

Where was Whittington supposed to be?! He had left the group to go retrieve a bird. Everyone knew this. He had to re-join the group at some point, and if he was searching around tall grass looking for the bird, he could have returned from any direction. This was a bad error in judgement on Cheney's part (and anyone else with him), to move on and keep hunting without knowing where a member of their party was. I find it appalling at a very personal level that anyone is trying to blame Whittington for being the victim here. I respect that Cheney, in his own statement, did claim full responsibility. Whether he's sorry for it or not, or thinks he would have done anything differently or not if in the same situation again, he at least acknowledged that he is the one at fault. Unless Whittington jumped out in front of the gun deliberately, it is not Whittington's fault.

 

[Orefa]

It's also worth noting that Whittington was clearly visible. Cheney himself described how he saw him drop so it's not like some bush was in the line of sight or anything. He turned around and fired a fast shot when Whittington was visible in front of him. I wonder if he even had his hunting permit suspended.

 

[Moonbear]

It's also worth noting that Whittington was clearly visible. Cheney himself described how he saw him drop so it's not like some bush was in the line of sight or anything. He turned around and fired a fast shot when Whittington was visible in front of him. I wonder if he even had his hunting permit suspended.

Well, I'm not sure how visible he was at the moment of the shot, because he was also described as being down in a ravine or gully (I don't recall exactly which it was) and the sun being behind him. My best estimate of the time frame of the incident based on Cheney's statements in the Fox interview is that it happened around 6:30 PM...he said the ambulance left for the hospital about 7 PM, and it was about a half hour from the time of the accident until the ambulance was ready to leave. At that moment in time, I don't expect anyone was staring at their watches, so give or take 15 min or so.

I looked up the data on sunset and civil twilight for Kingsville, TX (that's the town where the first hospital was located...I'm not sure if that's exactly the same town as the ranch is in, but it wouldn't be all that different if it was the local hospital they drove to by ambulance...Whittington was transported by air to Corpus Christi afterward).

U.S. Naval Observatory
Astronomical Applications Department


Sun and Moon Data for One Day

The following information is provided for Kingsville, Kleberg County, Texas (longitude W97.9, latitude N27.5):

Saturday
11 February 2006 Central Standard Time

SUN
Begin civil twilight 6:48 a.m.
Sunrise 7:12 a.m.
Sun transit 12:46 p.m.
Sunset 6:20 p.m.
End civil twilight 6:44 p.m.

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/RS_OneDay.html

According to the time line Cheney provided in his report, the accident happened right around sunset, which is consistent with the sun being behind someone standing in a gully so only part of his body was visible. So, there is plausibility given that time line that he did not see him before taking the shot, yet, firing into the sun, near sunset, in the general direction you know a member of your party was out searching for a bird still sounds like a preventable accident to me. Afterall, if visibility is getting so bad that you can no longer see who or what is in a particular direction, you should not be firing that direction.

 

[Orefa]

I'm not sure how visible he was at the moment of the shot

There are unknowns for sure but in the absence of complete details I just go by his own words: "The image of him falling is something I'll never ever be able to get out of my mind," Cheney said. "I fired, and there's Harry falling." If he could see him fall, surely he could see him stand. If he had taken time to look of course, which evidently he didn't in his rush to kill a bird.

 

[Cyrus]

I find it appalling at a very personal level that anyone is trying to blame Whittington for being the victim here.

If he did not announce that he was walking away to get his bird, he was acting carelessly as well. I am not saying he as at fault here, I am saying they both are. (Assuming he never told anyone he was going to go get his bird)

 

[Moonbear]

If he did not announce that he was walking away to get his bird, he was acting carelessly as well. I am not saying he as at fault here, I am saying they both are. (Assuming he never told anyone he was going to go get his bird)

But everyone knew he walked away to get the bird. That's been stated by everyone involved, he left to look for the bird that fell in tall grass. Even if he didn't say it out loud, everyone can see that one of the three people there who just shot a bird walked off to find one, and wasn't with them as they moved to a new spot. There were 10 people on the property hunting that day, but only two of those, plus a guide, were with Cheney that day...that's according to Cheney's statements, not the myriad other press reports. Why on Earth are you making excuses and trying to blame Whittington? It wasn't like everyone walked together to the new spot, and then while Cheney was focused on the birds, Whittington decided to wander off somewhere else without a word. Of course, who is the person really pushing the issue of trying to blame Whittington from the outset? It wasn't Cheney, it was Armstrong. Why would she be likely to blame Whittington? The accident happened on HER property, where she had allowed someone without the proper hunting stamp to hunt. She is not an unbiased source here...she could also be held responsible as the property owner unless she can somehow show that the victim was responsible for his own accident, and that there was nothing she could have done to prevent it. We can't assume she's saying these things to protect Cheney when she could very well be protecting her own hide here.

 

[scott1]

uh, come again? (scott1)



Give me a break. Two men who respect each other and are friends and both say they are sorry for being at fault. My freaking god, people taking account for their actions and you call it a cover up. Not talking to the media as soon as possible and you call it a cover up. You guys hold unfair double standards. Maybe he should just throw himself in jail to please the rest of you, but I am sure you would find some way to call that a cover up for his guilt too. just

Sorry it was a joke.

 

[Orefa]

Cheney himself, the central witness and the most-likely person to know all details of these events said that it was his fault and his fault alone: "it was not Harry's fault," he said. "You can't blame anybody else." I find this pretty clear, unless you assume that the vice-president misrepresented the truth.

 

[SOS2008]

Cheney himself, the central witness and the most-likely person to know all details of these events said that it was his fault and his fault alone: "it was not Harry's fault," he said. "You can't blame anybody else." I find this pretty clear, unless you assume that the vice-president misrepresented the truth.

It isn't necessarily to say the vice-president misrepresented the truth, though his account differed from what the ranch owner reported. With a history of drinking including two DUIs, and a history of secrecy "a better idea would be to get the vice president’s communications operations together with the president’s communications staff, and get something out, something on the wire, right away.” - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11396608/

I think it's appropriate to question the White House about why the Vice President chose to disregard the President's normal procedures for public disclosure. Mr. Cheney, in my view, acted as if he had something to hide. He also chose to allow a witness to this accident and the White House press secretary to spend three days portraying this as the fault of the shooting victim, Harry Whittington. Wednesday, Mr. Cheney changed course and took the blame. That invites press scrutiny.

http://dailynightly.msnbc.com/2006/02/the_week_that_w.html

IMO, it was just a sad accident, but as usual Cheney set himself above the law by avoiding proper investigation methods. This is what bothers me and many other Americans.

 

[Gokul43201]

IMO, it was just a sad accident, but as usual Cheney set himself above the law by avoiding proper investigation methods. This is what bothers me and many other Americans.

This, to me is the most noteworthy thing about this case.

Q: Scott, there's a report coming out of a Sheriff's deputy there who said that he was prevented from interviewing the Vice President by the Secret Service. Do you know anything about that? And is that appropriate?

MR. McCLELLAN: No, I don't know anything about that. You ought to direct that to the Secret Service. My understanding was that Secret Service took the appropriate steps to inform law enforcement. But, again, check with Secret Service.

Source : http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/02/20060213-4.html#b

It turns out that in fact, the authorities knew about the incident before the Secret Service told them, and moreover, were prevented from conducting an immediate investigation.

Kenedy County Texas Sheriffs Lt. Juan Guzman said deputies first learned of the shooting when an ambulance was called.

But the Secret Service told a different story, saying agents had informed the local sheriff of the shooting about an hour after it happened and that the vice president had been interviewed about the accident by local authorities on Sunday morning, CBS News White House correspondent Bill Plante reports.

Source : http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/02/13/national/main1312809.shtml

Secret Service spokesman Eric Zahren said at least one deputy showed up at the ranch's front gate Saturday night and asked to speak to Cheney, but was turned away by Secret Service agents. Zahren said there was some miscommunication and that arrangements had been made for the vice president to be interviewed Sunday morning.

Source : http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/APStories/stories/D8FOJVV03.html

 

[SOS2008]

Sticking to his guns. According to this Time poll, 56% don't think Cheney was trying to cover anything up.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1161169-2,00.html

But the story continues...

"Associated Press
VP Accident Tale Filled With Discrepancies"
http://www.forbes.com/technology/ebusiness/feeds/ap/2006/02/18/ap2537023.html

"Cheney's hunting host lobbied White House
Ranch owner who divulged accident earned $160,000 for work in 2004"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11349649/

And she "can't remember" which White House official she was paid $160,000 to set up a meeting with.

 

[Moonbear]

But the story continues...

"Cheney's hunting host lobbied White House
Ranch owner who divulged accident earned $160,000 for work in 2004"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11349649/

And she "can't remember" which White House official she was paid $160,000 to set up a meeting with.

So, maybe this wasn't just a private outing for the VP, but could have been official business? The VP spending a day out with a lobbyist and a prominent lawyer...you know, even if they really are just all friends, they had to know how this would look when it came out, and they'd be very naive to not think it would be found out. A political figure REALLY needs to think through all the interpretations and appearances of what they say and do and address them upfront, or else it does lead to an ever-worsening scandal.

I also wonder, if Cheney hadn't ticked off the media so much by delaying release of this story, but instead immediately invited the circus over as soon as the accident happened, would they have even been motivated to look this deeply into it? Really, if they had been called right away, I suspect the entire story would have been playing out at the Corpus Christi hospital with coverage focusing on Whittington's condition, and ending with his release from the hospital, rather than the political quagmire it's turned into.

 

[SOS2008]

So, maybe this wasn't just a private outing for the VP, but could have been official business? The VP spending a day out with a lobbyist and a prominent lawyer...you know, even if they really are just all friends, they had to know how this would look when it came out, and they'd be very naive to not think it would be found out. A political figure REALLY needs to think through all the interpretations and appearances of what they say and do and address them upfront, or else it does lead to an ever-worsening scandal.

I also wonder, if Cheney hadn't ticked off the media so much by delaying release of this story, but instead immediately invited the circus over as soon as the accident happened, would they have even been motivated to look this deeply into it? Really, if they had been called right away, I suspect the entire story would have been playing out at the Corpus Christi hospital with coverage focusing on Whittington's condition, and ending with his release from the hospital, rather than the political quagmire it's turned into.

The track record of secrecy is why this administration was under suspicion in the first place, and sure enough it was justified. Too bad so many Americans still support BushCo with delusional naiveté. I'm beginning to think it wouldn't matter even if it involved sex.

In any event, here are some more links to recent polls, which are more reliable than Time:

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/2006/National%20Polls/Cheney%20Hunting%20Accident.htm

http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB114002207886474818-lWShCHhsBR8WKgqAnwvGurU_SMw_20070215.html?mod=tff_main_tff_top

 

[cronxeh]

The track record of secrecy is why this administration was under suspicion in the first place

yeah this is the secret the administration been able to keep so far the longest time.. 4 days?