Is it Time for the US Government to Ban Gun Ownership?

[Huckleberry]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not exactly happy with everything in the Constitution. It's my belief that it should only refer to limitations of the government. Our Constitution has been altered several times with things like
Prohibition

Amendment XVIII
Section 1. After one year from the ratification of this article the manufacture, sale, or transportation of intoxicating liquors within, the importation thereof into, or the exportation thereof from the United States and all territory subject to the jurisdiction thereof for beverage purposes is hereby prohibited.


Section 2. The Congress and the several states shall have concurrent power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.


Section 3. This article shall be inoperative unless it shall have been ratified as an amendment to the Constitution by the legislatures of the several states, as provided in the Constitution, within seven years from the date of the submission hereof to the states by the Congress.

Repealing Prohibition

Amendment XXI
Section 1. The eighteenth article of amendment to the Constitution of the United States is hereby repealed.


Section 2. The transportation or importation into any state, territory, or possession of the United States for delivery or use therein of intoxicating liquors, in violation of the laws thereof, is hereby prohibited.


Section 3. This article shall be inoperative unless it shall have been ratified as an amendment to the Constitution by conventions in the several states, as provided in the Constitution, within seven years from the date of the submission hereof to the states by the Congress.

Income Tax

Amendment XVI
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

If the government wanted to ban alcohol we could vote on it to be law. There is no need to put it in the Bill of Rights as something we can't ever do. Then 24 years later they repeal the amendment and replace it with another one with different restrictions. That's foolishness.
Amendment XVI (Income Tax) basically says the government can tax us without our representation, which is the reason we rebelled against England in the first place. How silly is that?

It's my opinion that the Constitution should set up the guidelines of how the government should be arranged and operated. It should give unalienable rights to the citizens (not the government.) Any law the government wishes to pass should be voted on by the citizens. That's the spirit of the document as created by its original authors. A lot of this other stuff should not be in the Constitution. Our sacred cow has been sullied a bit, but it's the spirit of the thing I love.

 

[Anttech]

Technically, yes. We'd just finished a successful rebellion against one government we found oppressive and the states weren't very trusting of being ruled by some outside central government - somewhat similar to how a lot of Europeans might feel about their countries being ruled by a central European Union.

At the time of the Constitution, the only advantage a central military might have over locals was cannons. While individual citizens might not own cannons, state militias did, so none of the states were overmatched by a pretty weak national force.

In fact, threatening to secede from the United States and form their own nation was a pretty effective way for blocks of states to get the national government to do what a minority of states might want. The threat of secession of states bordering the Mississippi influenced Jefferson's decision to make the Louisiana Purchase in spite of coastal states thinking it was a waste of money.

Based on past history, the South had pretty good reason to believe it would work for tariffs on imports and slavery, too. Turned out it didn't. They hadn't paid close enough attention to how much stronger the national government was allowed to become after the British burned down our capitol in the War of 1812.

There always has to be some kind of balance between safety and freedom from government and we've changed our assessment of what that balance should be based on changing circumstances. Our assessment of a lot of issues have changed. That's why the Constitution has been changed 27 times. To ban guns, it would have to be changed again (technically, one could argue that the Supreme Court has taken an over-restrictive view of the 2nd Amendment to ban military weapons - it's taken some creativity to avoid confronting the 2nd Amendment directly).

Good post, and good point. But judging by what you are saying can we not conclude that the 2nd Amendment is now completely out of date? (I know I can't say this without getting abuse thrown at me, but I don't care about that)

 

[loseyourname]

I would tend to agree with that observation, it was something I was going to state a while back but didnt. There is also a paradox with the ideal of democracy and a constitution which is absolutely above encroachment. The will of the people must be above the constitution, but it doesn't seem to be, it seems the constitution is almost something that one must hold on to, and everything should be compared against it. Even in the light of facts, and for the want of a better society to live in, the constitution is more important.

European nations were originally linguistic or ethnic in nature, giving the people and government some way to create a sense of community across an entire country of people that would likely never meet or cooperate toward any real common goal. In the US, this was never the case. The people have, from the beginning, been of different ethnicities and national backgrounds, have spoken different languages, practiced different religions, and so on and so forth. It was the pursuit of common ideals that bonded early Americans together and that has been our legacy. It is what makes one American. It doesn't matter where you come from, what you look like, what language you speak, what religion you practice, just so long as you believe in the principles of republican government as enumerated in the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Historically speaking, this was the only way to bind people of disparate beliefs and backgrounds together to form one nation, a nation much different from the ones in Europe that developed from previous monarchical dynasties. The Constitution is important to Americans for the same reason that language is important to the Armenians and Quebecois; it is the fundamental constituent of American cultural identity.

There seems to be some kind of almost divine shimmer over the US constitution. We changed a part of ours some decades ago (when making it possible for a woman to inherit the kings throne), and we still live happily in peace despite that.
However, what it takes to make a change in the constitution is such a decision in two consecutively elected Parliaments, which means that no changes can be made unless the people have clearly given their permission.

This just goes back to what I said above. You're Swedish, right? What makes you a Swede is the fact that you're Swedish, and that's the case for the vast majority of Swedish citizens, I would imagine. Their parents were Swedes, their grandparents were Swedes, and so on and so forth going back a thousand years. The cultural/linguistic identity goes back to way before you ever had a constitution and remains the most important part of what makes on Swedish. That just isn't the case in the United States.

We can and have changed our constitution, too. Seventeen amendments have been added since the original ten. Slavery and prohibition have come and gone. Women and adults under the age of 21 can now vote. Presidential elections are conducted in a manner radically different from the way they were originally conducted, and senatorial elections are direct, whereas they were not before. The rights originally afforded to white males are now extended to every citizen.

The original ten amendments, however, have never changed. They constitute our "Bill of Rights" and they have always been there, defining the limits of what American government can and cannot do. Their shape our conception of justice and of freedom and are probably the dearest of all American sentiments. Millions of American men and women have died over the years, not to protect their families, not to protect their language, not to serve their king, not to keep alive a monastic/ethnic legacy, but to defend those most basic of rights guaranteed to us by the Constitution.

Huh? Why?

Some people really seem to revere this paper like bible thumpers revere theirs. But unlike the latter, "the rules" can be changed, no matter where they are written. What goes for the eighteenth amendment can go for the second.

Legally, sure, but you'll find a great deal more resistance. As I've said, the Bill of Rights has never changed. Changing it would in many ways amount to changing what it means to be American, and a great deal of Americans are not going to stand for that.

 

[Yowhatsupt]

Statistics don't lie, I've but the 1994 firearm homocide rates into a chart:

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/3629/statisticsic8.png

I normalized both data series so that the highest value in the groups is 100.

* Hmm, the US owns the most guns and the amount of firearm homocides is second highest. So guns prevent violence? Don't think so.
* Also look at the Netherlands, it has to lowest amount of guns per household, it also has about the lowest amount of firearm homocides. So not owning a gun makes you a victim? Don't think so.

that study is concerned with TOTAL deaths and TOTAL homocides. The US has a much larger population that any of the other countries listed. Did you take this into account in your graph?

 

[Astronuc]

Good post, and good point. But judging by what you are saying can we not conclude that the 2nd Amendment is now completely out of date?

Actually there are strong feelings on both sides for/against concerning the ownership of guns - privately, as opposed to militarily - as well a spectrum in between. If enough (a majority) Americans (citizens) felt that way, then the Constitution could be amended, as has always been the case - and there is a process by which to do that.

The world (and the US) is certainly a different place today than it was 230 years ago, and the authors of the constitution could not forsee the future of society or technology. That perhaps should be a consideration in the debate.

As for mass murder, all nations/regions on the planet have experienced mass murder (whether or not we call it war or whatever). Even in recent history, probably every nation has seen individuals preying upon innocents.

It would be worthwhile to realize/recognize/confirm that every society has similar problems - I have seen it personally in every country I have visited - and many more indirectly through the press or friends. The only differences are the culture and language.

Now how do we temper the anger or aggression. Certainly not by insulting one another.

Please let us try to maintain civility in the discourse and/or disputation.

 

[EL]

The original ten amendments, however, have never changed. They constitute our "Bill of Rights" and they have always been there, defining the limits of what American government can and cannot do. Their shape our conception of justice and of freedom and are probably the dearest of all American sentiments. Millions of American men and women have died over the years, not to protect their families, not to protect their language, not to serve their king, not to keep alive a monastic/ethnic legacy, but to defend those most basic of rights guaranteed to us by the Constitution.

I understand the importantness of the constitution for the national identity, and I see nothing wrong in keeping them as long as the people wants them the way they are (as the majority of US citizens seem to). What I'm objecting to is the dabate climate of "don't even think of questioning what's in the constitution" (partly found in this thread).
The "Bill of Rights" should be defended with valid arguments, and not with circular reasoning.

 

[Yowhatsupt]

I'm going to weigh in a little bit even though I haven't previously on this thread.

First off don't blame guns for killings. This is entirely illogical. It's like saying pencils cause mispellings. Blame the people responsible.

Second off as BobG has been explaining a huge and central part of the US government system is that the people ultimitely rule. The people have the right to overthrow their government hence the reason for the 2nd ammendment. Our founders were paranoid about their rights, this has become a characteristic of Americans. The fastest way to get an American angry is to make them feel like your stomping on their rights.

The argument Europeans make is that society is a lot safer without guns. Heres the key word safety. Europeans want their government to protect them. American's want their government to enforce contracts. Including the contract that is the Constitution. It's a contract with the people saying, here are your rights, and this is what we are authorizing you to do in order to govern us. There is a responsibility for taking care of yourself in the US. Thats why the Bill of Rights doesn't provide for the public safety. It provides for helping the citizen protect himself FROM the government and society(which will naturally seek to prosecute any perceived offece) even if he is guilty of a crime. These are things our Supreme court has argued in famous cases like Miranda Vs Arizona.

Yes you can get automatic weapons(not the same thing as an assault weapon, as people frequently refer to any gun that is black and plastic as an assault weapon here is an explanation video ) in the US, however you have to have (I believe a special federally issued weapons license) or be police or military.

ukmicky no offence is intended here but the British Empire does not have a proud history of protecting human rights or other people. It instead has acted in its own interests. As has the US and most European powers.

In regards to the number of gun related deaths in the US. The number is like 14,000. We have something like 50 or 60,000 deaths from cars. The population of the US is 300,000,000. So based on this the vast majority of people in the US are not involved in violent crimes involving guns. And there are a huge number of guns in circulation within the US both automatic and semi-auto.

As to the Virginia Tech shooting, it is absolutely upsetting. But again its not the gun's fault. Read some of the guy's play's and then tell me that the fact that he "could" get a "gun" "made" him shoot those kids. Having a gun doesn't make you kill anyone. It doesn't encourage you to killing someone. There are millions of people in the US who are living proof of that.

Peace

I'm not trying to come across strongly btw. I am just stating my opinion and providing some thoughts.

 

[Yowhatsupt]

I understand the importantness of the constitution for the national identity, and I see nothing wrong in keeping them as long as the people wants them the way they are (as the majority of US citizens seem to). What I'm objecting to is the dabate climate of "don't even think of questioning what's in the constitution" (partly found in this thread).
The "Bill of Rights" should be defended with valid arguments, and not with circular reasoning.

What circular reasoning? Where are do you feel misled without valid argument?

 

[EL]

What circular reasoning?

Well "circular" wasn't a good word. I mean to reason like "what is written in the constitution is right because it is written in the constitution".

Where are do you feel misled without valid argument?

I think most people in this thread are using valid arguments (on both sides).

 

[Art]

The second amendment bailed Europe out of deep trouble twice in the 20th century, three or four times counting the Cold War and Balkans. Don't kid yourself one minute who and what made it possible for you to b*tch about the way we live our lives.

This only happened in the Hollywood makeovers.

In the real world the US joined in WW1 for a few reasons. A major one was the interception of a telegram from Germany to Mexico offering to support Mexico in a war against the US and a second reason was Britain agreed to give the US it's bases in the Carribean a third and lesser reason was Germany's policy of unrestricted submarine warfare.

In the end Britain was less than happy with the outcome of the deal as the US took so long to mobilise the war was nearly over before a reasonable sized US force arrived in Europe. Because of this delay the US only contributed in one campaign using French made weaponry as the US at that time didn't have a lot of their own (At the armistice 2/3 of the AEF's aircraft were French, all of it's field guns, all of it's tanks and nearly all of it's shells). During this the final campaign the AEF were tasked with an attack in the Meuse-Argonne sector to coincide with attacks on other fronts from the British, Belgians and the French. In the event the US were the only army which failed to take their objective but did take heavy casualties as they tried to demonstrate to the Europeans the benefits of open warfare as opposed to trench warfare and were beaten back by a German force 1/8 their size. So how exactly did the US second amendment save the day?

People seem to forget in the early 20th century it was the European nations which were the world's superpowers.

In WW2 the US remained neutral until Japan bombed Pearl Harbour and even then the US did not declare war on Germany. It was Germany declared war on the US. And if we are all to be honest then we should acknowledge it was Russia mainly who beat Germany.

So it is hard to see how you can claim the US saved Europe twice in the 20th century especially as despite vehement protests from Churchill, Roosevelt gave all of eastern europe to Stalin which led directly to the cold war which you also claim to have saved Europe from??

Dresden, Guernica, Coventry were all deliberate attacks on civilians, the cities themselves having no strategic or tactical value, and known to have no value as targets at the time.

Coventry I can speak of from first hand knowledge and I can tell you Coventry was THE engineering capital of England. It was home to most of the UK's bomber aircraft production and just about all of it's transport manufacturing along with numerous munitions factories including companies such as Dunlop, Daimler, GEC, Humber and Armstrong Whitworth so where on Earth did you get the idea it had no strategic or tactical value? BTW there were ~1200 in total killed in the Coventry blitz throughout all of WW2, the 14th Nov 1940 being the major attack by 500 German Bombers which resulted in ~500 dead and ~850 injured with 7 vital war factories destroyed which halted production for months.


Sorry to digress but you've made several statements I wouldn't like to see go unchallenged.

 

[ShawnD]

What circular reasoning? Where are do you feel misled without valid argument?

I think what he means is how the argument turns into
"you can't just change the constitution"
"yes you can!"

There is fear of a slippery slope when it comes to the constitution. If you can remove X part of the constitution, why not remove Y and Z? The people who defend the constitution don't necessarily resist change, but they feel the root document that all laws are based on should never be changed. The constitution says Americans can have guns, but it doesn't specify what kind of guns, so laws that restrict specific guns are not unconstitutional. If you go as far as completely removing the second amendment, what is to stop you from removing freedom of speech as well? That's why every part of the constitution is heavily defended.

Unfortunately everything I said above is not that important. At one time it was thought to be unconstitutional to ban drugs. Solution? Require a license to grow Marijuana. How do you get this license? You bring marijuana to the government and they'll give you a license. The problem is that you had to illegal grow the marijuana before you could legally grow the marijuana. Do you see the paradox? BS laws like this are created all the time, and it's usually to do things that are unconstitutional. If you think Bush is the one who slaughtered the constitution, you're only half right. Law makers have been doing this for years.

 

[EL]

Btw, does the constitution say anything about who can get a gun license and who cannot?

 

[drankin]

Btw, does the constitution say anything about who can get a gun license and who cannot?

No it doesn't. The individual states have the authority to further regulate. But, I'm sure someone else here could go into more detail.

 

[EL]

So could a state in principle impose extreme requirements for getting a gun licence, without being unconstitutional?

 

[Yowhatsupt]

So could a state in principle impose extreme requirements for getting a gun licence, without being unconstitutional?

No, the Federal Constitution is the supreme law of the land. The Right to bear arms shall not be infringed. If a state were to pass a law making it next to impossible but still possible to get a weapon it would be challenged in the courts and overturned.

 

[drankin]

The truth is, some states are extremely restrictive with further restrictions at the city level. Carrying a handgun is completely illegal in many cities. Is it Constitutional? No, but it hasn't been adequately challenged yet. Washington DC (which isn't in a state) was challenged and higher courts struck down their law that was on the books for 31 years. It was illegal to even own a rifle in your home there... for example.

 

[turbo]

So could a state in principle impose extreme requirements for getting a gun licence, without being unconstitutional?

You do not need a license to own a gun in the US. As long as you are mentally competent, not a felon, and not a drug-user (they have conveniently excluded alcohol) and are a US citizen, you have the right to possesses a firearm. States can severely restrict the right of citizens to carry firearms (and they do) and some have placed severe restrictions on the rights of their citizens to posses classes of firearms, like handguns. Where I live, you might be considered a bit "different" if you don't own a deer-rifle, and it's considered pretty normal to own handguns for plinking, target practice, and home defense.

Last year, I gave my neighbor's young sons (with his permission) each a 100-round box of .22 Long Rifle ammunition at Halloween instead of candy. They were thrilled. They have .22 pistols and rifles that they can use (with permission) including a wonderful competition-grade pistol that is a joy to shoot. These are well-adjusted wonderful kids that have to be prompted to call me by my first name, and say "please" and "thank you" automatically. I was brought up in a similar fashion ~50 years ago, saying "Yes, sir" and "Yes, ma'am" to people who were not members of my family or at least VERY close friends.

 

[Cyrus]

This pole is biased with a bunch of "Yes's" from people that are not american and thus should not vote.

I thought we had a thread about this already. If you don't like guns that's fine, then don't buy one. You can cry all you want about it, but the majority of Americans don't agree with your views. If you don't like it, to damm bad. You can either (a), not buy a gun, or (b) not live in America. If the time comes that AMERICANS feel we should not have guns, we will amend the constitution.

You have two walls in this thread, the anti-gun people, and the pro-gun people (myself included). Complain all you want about the media and rap music and every other excuse you want to make, and keep overlooking the fact of responsibility. The guy who shot the students at VT was the one responsible, not guns, nor the media, nor male sexuality or whatever stupid nonsense was brought up in that thread before it got locked.

This thread is pointless.

 

[Integral]

What many Euorpeans and city fail to realize is the the vast majority of the US land mass is rural in nature. So for many a gun is not a toy, but a tool. It is necessray for protection of crops and herds. While most of the population is urban, that which is not has very different needs.

A few years back, in Oregon, the women folk of Portland and Eugene decided that hunting Cougar with dogs was cruel and should be halted. The fact that it is the ONLY effective way of hunting cougar failed to impress them.

It is no longer safe for women and kids to walk in the woods

 

[ShawnD]

So could a state in principle impose extreme requirements for getting a gun licence, without being unconstitutional?

In theory, yes they could. As long as it is still possible to get a gun, laws can be made to make it harder to get guns. For example, some states have a waiting time for guns. Some states require background checks, and you can be denied if you fail that check. In theory a state could require gun registration in order to buy new guns and ammunition, much like the federal law Canada currently has. People like to say that guns are illegal or uncommon in Canada, but really the only difference is how hard it is to buy a gun. In Canada you can only buy a gun if you really really want to buy a gun. In the US you can buy a gun if you flipped a coin and it landed tails (and you passed the background check).

As Yowhatsupt said, it's left up to the courts to see which of these laws are unconstitutional. In many ways, countries like US and Canada have an oligarchy that runs things; they are called the Supreme Court. The law makers in a certain state or province can try to pass any zany laws they want, but they can be struck down at any time by the supreme court overlords, which is probably a good thing since not all politicians are overly educated (whereas judges are very well educated).

 

[Moon Bee]

Can that check be done in today ?

 

[Art]

This pole is biased with a bunch of "NO's" from people that are not american and thus should not vote.

I thought we had a thread about this already. If you don't like guns that's fine, then don't buy one. You can cry all you want about it, but the majority of Americans don't agree with your views. If you don't like it, to damm bad. You can either (a), not buy a gun, or (b) not live in America. If the time comes that AMERICANS feel we should not have guns, we will amend the constitution.

Ahem Cyrus "NO" in the poll means you keep your guns.

 

[Cyrus]

Crap, I meant to say Yes. Dammit!

Hey, it wasnt a pole on intelligence.

 

[turbo]

This pole is biased with a bunch of "NO's" from people that are not american and thus should not vote.

I thought we had a thread about this already. If you don't like guns that's fine, then don't buy one. You can cry all you want about it, but the majority of Americans don't agree with your views. If you don't like it, to damm bad. You can either (a), not buy a gun, or (b) not live in America. If the time comes that AMERICANS feel we should not have guns, we will amend the constitution.

You have two walls in this thread, the anti-gun people, and the pro-gun people (myself included). Complain all you want about the media and rap music and every other excuse you want to make, and keep overlooking the fact of responsibility. The guy who shot the students at VT was the one responsible, not guns, nor the media, nor male sexuality or whatever stupid nonsense was brought up in that thread before it got locked.

This thread is pointless.

Today, I went to my local gun shop and picked up 4 20-round boxes of 175gr, 10mm auto cartridges for my new Glock 20. They are Silvertip hollow-points with scored jackets. I bear no animosity to my fellow man, but if they are in my house posing a threat to my wife and myself they're going to get the very best reception that I can give them. I have never aimed a gun at a person, and when I hunt deer, I either use my single-shot Ruger Model 1 .45-70 or a Winchester lever-action with only one cartridge loaded. If one shot is not sufficient, then I do not posses the skill to give the animal a clean kill and should not be hunting at all.

 

[scorpa]

What many Euorpeans and city fail to realize is the the vast majority of the US land mass is rural in nature. So for many a gun is not a toy, but a tool. It is necessray for protection of crops and herds. While most of the population is urban, that which is not has very different needs.

A few years back, in Oregon, the women folk of Portland and Eugene decided that hunting Cougar with dogs was cruel and should be halted. The fact that it is the ONLY effective way of hunting cougar failed to impress them.

It is no longer safe for women and kids to walk in the woods

I completely agree with this. I made this point what seems like hundred pages back now (this thread moves fast!) but people seemed to disagree by saying such things as 'well there are other ways to scare a predator off'. People who don't live that lifestyle just do not understand that people do not just consider guns toys and that the majority of people use them as tools.

 

[drankin]

Can that check be done in today ?

If you are talking about the background check, yes. In most states, before you purchase your gun, they run your name and # against a federal database.

If any more restrictions come from this, it should be that you have to be an actual American national in order purchase a firearm. I mean, just that fact that we have been attacked in our own country (9-11) should make this a no-brainer that only Americans should be allowed their Constitutional right to bear arms here. Yes, I understand that 9-11 wasn't gun related, not my point. How many non-Americans have to kill Americans on our own soil for this to be obvious?

 

[Evo]

I don't have the link here, but I believe there are over 200 million registered guns in the US, now compare that to the number of murders commited with guns.

I just did a few posts earlier: https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=1305638&postcount=240

Here are the numbers

"In 1994, 44 million Americans owned 192 million firearms" That's out of almost 300 million people.

http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/165476.pdf

Homicides by gun have fallen drastically since the mid 90's, although gun ownership has increased.

Homicides by Handgun and other gun

1976 8,651 3,328
1977 8,563 3,391
1978 8,879 3,569
1979 9,858 3,732
1980 10,552 3,834
1981 10,324 3,740
1982 9,137 3,501
1983 8,472 2,794
1984 8,183 2,835
1985 8,165 2,973
1986 9,054 3,126
1987 8,781 3,094
1988 9,375 3,162
1989 10,225 3,197
1990 11,677 3,395
1991 13,101 3,277
1992 13,158 3,043
1993 13,981 3,094
1994 13,496 2,840
1995 12,050 2,679
1996 10,731 2,533
1997 9,705 2,631
1998 8,844 2,168
1999 7,943 2,174
2000 7,985 2,218
2001 7,900 2,239
2002 8,286 2,538
2003 8,830 2,223
2004 8,299 2,355

Source: FBI, Supplementary Homicide Reports, 1976-2004.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/tables/weaponstab.htm

 

[Art]

I'm going to weigh in a little bit even though I haven't previously on this thread.

First off don't blame guns for killings. This is entirely illogical. It's like saying pencils cause mispellings. Blame the people responsible.

Makes for a snappy catch phrase but is very overly simplistic. By the same logic nukes don't kill either so every country should have them and yet the US is adamant this shouldn't happen.

Second off as BobG has been explaining a huge and central part of the US government system is that the people ultimitely rule. The people have the right to overthrow their government hence the reason for the 2nd ammendment. Our founders were paranoid about their rights, this has become a characteristic of Americans. The fastest way to get an American angry is to make them feel like your stomping on their rights.

The argument Europeans make is that society is a lot safer without guns. Heres the key word safety. Europeans want their government to protect them. American's want their government to enforce contracts. Including the contract that is the Constitution. It's a contract with the people saying, here are your rights, and this is what we are authorizing you to do in order to govern us. There is a responsibility for taking care of yourself in the US. Thats why the Bill of Rights doesn't provide for the public safety. It provides for helping the citizen protect himself FROM the government and society(which will naturally seek to prosecute any perceived offece) even if he is guilty of a crime. These are things our Supreme court has argued in famous cases like Miranda Vs Arizona.

This makes for a better argument but is somewhat nullified by how easily Americans rolled over for Bush, trading freedoms for questionably improved security vis a vis The Patriot Act.

ukmicky no offence is intended here but the British Empire does not have a proud history of protecting human rights or other people. It instead has acted in its own interests. As has the US and most European powers..

Agreed which is why it is galling to cynical Europeans when many Americans appear to believe their gov't acts on moral imperatives i.e. bringing democracy to downtrodden people when the rest of the world knows Iraq was about oil.

In regards to the number of gun related deaths in the US. The number is like 14,000. We have something like 50 or 60,000 deaths from cars. The population of the US is 300,000,000. So based on this the vast majority of people in the US are not involved in violent crimes involving guns. And there are a huge number of guns in circulation within the US both automatic and semi-auto..

Yet the number of Americans killed through acts of terrorism are very small compared with either of the causes you have listed and yet look at the expenditure and freedom sapping practices the US public have accepted to avoid a repeat.

 

[Cyrus]

Makes for a snappy catch phrase but is very overly simplistic. By the same logic nukes don't kill either so every country should have them and yet the US is adamant this shouldn't happen.

No, its not. It goes for the exact same principle. Personal responsibility. Some countries are not RESPONSIBLE to have nuclear weapons, the same way some people are not RESPONSIBLE to own guns.

 

[Bystander]

Yup --- didn't leave anything but that filthy Marshall Plan money, assorted base payrolls, civilian employment --- that sort of thing.

Filthy for sure, the UK was a wreak after the war, in which America was able to inject life back into its economy, and collapse all the trade routes the UK owned.

Which trade routes were those? Suez? Jointly owned with France? Nationalized by Nasser? UK went in with U.S. on "freedom of the seas" in the early 19th century. That is, NO ownership.

The UK and many European countries were debted to the US for the next upteen years.

The only European country required to repay funds received under the Marshall Plan was W. Germany, and that debt was paid off in 1971 (3?). UK did have a three gigabuck 2% debt incurred under Lend-Lease from during the war, and there was talk of forgiving that 30-40 years ago --- it was more a matter of pride, and national integrity that it be paid off at the hundred million dollars a year (less than the cost of the accountants, lawyers, and bankers to handle its administration).

The UK just payed back its final installments, a nice thank you don't you think, for taking the brunt of Nazism, filthy, yeah Id agree with that.

Three billion at 2% for 60 years plus another three billion free. Properly managed (like W. Germany) that's a hundred billion dollar gift.

Belgium is still paying back its debts, this is actually a big reason why the taxes are so high here, its a myth that its due to social security etc, most of the money gets pumped into paying the interest, filthy you say, for sure.

None owed to the U.S. --- sounds like you've got some real crooks minding your store for you.
(snip)

_______________________________________________________________

the only question remaining is whether the U.S. should adopt the European preference for mega-scale mass murders through revision of the second amendment, or continue facing micro-scale events.

(snip)Perhaps I missed all the posts of Europeans here stating they were all for mega-scale mass-murdering, if so I apologise.

Haven't noticed any Europeans bragging about mortality due to mass murder during the 20th century --- European management of European affairs during the 20th century certainly didn't prevent Hitler or Stalin from exacting the tolls they did.

(snip) Although first you should really make your mind up, either what happened was a "micro-scale event" or "indiscriminate mass murder."

"mega-scale mass murders through revision of the second amendment, or continue facing micro-scale events

(snip) "23 year old S. Korean senior English major committed indiscriminate mass murder on the campus of Virginia Tech" --- 33 fatalities, a micro-scale event; "A. Hitler a 40-50 some year old landscape painter and WW I veteran committed indiscriminate mass murder on the continent of Europe" --- 6 million plus victims, a mega-scale event; "J. Stalin a 30-60 some year old former Okrana agent, bank robber, and sawed-off runt committed indiscriminate mass murder on the continent of Europe" --- estimates range from 1-3 times Hitler's total, another mega-scale event.

_______________________________________________________________

And Europeans cannot look at their own history.

"Bull**** ?" Hardly --- the U.S. went into the Balkans to stifle assorted mass murder operations the Europeans were entirely too gutless to deal with less than 20 years ago. When we leave, the mass murders will resume, and the EU will still be too gutless to deal with it.

You like to use the word European as in the above text and in the rest of the post the above was from . As an English man I'm also a European, so i take it your including me and the rest of the UK citizens when you call the Europeans gutless.(snip)

Wouldn't dream of insulting "perfidious Albion" by including it with Europe. Crecy, Agincourt, Henry VIII, E-Beth I did a really admirable job of purging the European influence from "The Isles."

I wouldn't under any circumstances class the UK as gutless but are in fact one of the few countries which can legitimately say they have a proud record in regards to standing up for those unable to protect themselves.
I take it the word European was used in error.

Given the UK's history with the EEC, France during the Falklands, sudden reconciliation with the development of the North Sea fields? Europe is Europe, and the UK is a whole other political entity, too often misused by its "continental neighbors."
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This only happened in the Hollywood makeovers.

In the real world the US joined in WW1 for a few reasons. A major one was the interception of a telegram from Germany to Mexico offering to support Mexico in a war against the US and a second reason was Britain agreed to give the US it's bases in the Carribean.

"The Zimmerman telegram?" You know better than that.

In the end Britain was less than happy with the outcome as the US took so long to mobilise, the war was nearly over before a reasonable sized US force arrived in Europe.

Give us the rest of the story --- Wilson may have been a dreamer, but he knew better than to turn U.S. troops over piecemeal to Haig and Joffre to be turned into rat fodder.

Because of this delay the US only contributed in one campaign (using French made weaponry as the US at that time didn't have a lot of their own).

The French 75 was at that time the best field piece in the world (the German 77, a copy, was by some accounts as good), there was reticence to risk capture of John Browning's masterpieces (some sources say the M-2 was actually there, some don't --- never got that one resolved --- same-same re. BAR), hence the use of the Chauchat --- John Bull wouldn't license or otherwise allow us the use of the Lewis gun. We weren't too happy either.

During this campaign the US were the only army which failed to take their objective but did take heavy casualties as they tried to demonstrate to the Europeans the benefits of open warfare as opposed to trench warfare. So how exactly did the US save the day?

Wilhelm saw "the writing on the wall" --- at which point the last German offensive of the war was launched to end things before the Yanks got to the front in force; it involved overextension of supply lines through torn up country, but bogged down short of any strategically decisive point (Paris?). When the allied counterattack took place, the German army was out of men, food, ammunition, and everything but willpower to conduct an orderly time-consuming, fighting withdrawal to lines still well within France.

People seem to forget in the early 20th century it was the European nations which were the world's superpowers.

Which bled themselves to death in Flanders, on the Isonzo, and (sh*t, forgot the name of the damned swamp) on the eastern front.

In WW2 the US remained neutral until Japan bombed Pearl Harbour and even then the US did not declare war on Germany. It was Germany declared war on the US. And if we are all to be honest then we should acknowledge it was Russia mainly who beat Germany.

After Kursk, I'd call it (Hitler vs. Stalin) an even match, but at the same time Joe's temper tantrums were always about "When are you opening the second front?" Brinksmanship? Or, that close? Dunno.

So it is hard to see how you can claim the US saved Europe twice in the 20th century especially as despite vehement protests from Churchill, Roosevelt gave all of eastern europe to Stalin which led directly to the cold war which you also claim to have saved Europe from??

Okay, little "horseshoe nail" history: let's say that following Battle of Britain, some sort of "peace" arrangement is reached between UK and Germ. (iffy); Stalin vs. Hitler (w' no distractions --- peace deal pulls Italy from N. Afr. and Greece) turns into a very even match; Joe wins, he's not going to stop at the Rhine. This all depends on FDR being reined in by Congress re. Europe --- leaves him nothing to gain by starting a brawl in the Pacific --- "what ifs" don't really constitute arguments, but it's probably safe to say that the course of European history would have been radically different without U.S. involvement.

"Cold War?" Started in 1918 at Archangel, Murmansk, and Port Arthur ("Strangle the monster in its cradle" and all that?).

"Saved Europe?" WW I, tipped the balance of military power to the point that Wilhelm had to go for broke --- and, lost --- that's one; no U.S. entry, and it's anybody's guess what happens to Europe --- Spain and Portugal stayed out, Sweden and Norway stayed out --- and everyone else is bankrupt and bled to death --- does the Russian Revolution jump borders west? WW II, arsenal of democracy, balance of power, definitely in Joe's road west of the Rhine, and the UK was not going to liberate France or Belgium on its own --- that's two; post WW II phase of Cold War, we didn't have to stay, help rebuild, nuttin' --- that's three; Balkan mess, not our department, and not a threat, but still large-scale mass murder, and "humanitarian" (worst reason in the world to go to war) concerns dictate that Europeans do something about it --- Mad Madeline had it in for Milosevic, so we took the lead --- not really a fourth save, but picking up after other peoples' messes when they've had more than enough time and opportunity --- maybe you see the point.

 

[gravenewworld]

Why don't we just do what we do with everything else that people have the "right" to use or own, but is bad for them? TAX THE HELL OUT OF IT!

Why not charge $1000 for a box of bullets? That way not many people are going to be able to afford dozens of magazines that they could use to kill people.

 

[drankin]

Why don't we just do what we do with everything else that people have the "right" to use or own, but is bad for them? TAX THE HELL OUT OF IT!

Why not charge $1000 for a box of bullets? That way not many people are going to be able to afford dozens of magazines that they could use to kill people.

Absolutely not. Now, only rich people can defend themselves? I don't think so.

 

[scorpa]

Why don't we just do what we do with everything else that people have the "right" to use or own, but is bad for them? TAX THE HELL OUT OF IT!

Why not charge $1000 for a box of bullets? That way not many people are going to be able to afford dozens of magazines that they could use to kill people.

Learn to make your own bullets...problem solved

People seem to have this idea that everyone out there with a gun is using it to kill others. That is hardly true. As I mentioned before most people use them as a tool. You can use cars to kill people, knives, bombs...ect guns are hardly the only way ...hell you can beat a person to death. Take away the guns and you are only punishing the good people who have them, not the criminals.

 

[Evo]

Why don't we just do what we do with everything else that people have the "right" to use or own, but is bad for them? TAX THE HELL OUT OF IT!

Why not charge $1000 for a box of bullets? That way not many people are going to be able to afford dozens of magazines that they could use to kill people.

Criminals and crazy people would just steal them. When you consider how many people own guns and how few crimes are commited with them (by proportion) the great majority of gun owners are not going out shooting people.

 

[gravenewworld]

then why not require that all magazines for gun have a maximum capacity of say, only 5 bullets?

then charge $1000 per magazine so no one can can afford to carry tons of them. that way people still get their guns and their bullets, and anti gun people get at least some sense of tighter restrictions on guns.

we tax the hell out of cigarettes, but you don't see many people that are addicted to cigarettes breaking into store to steal them.