Israel PM: State Protection for War Crimes in Gaza

[Art]

Following the alleged (sic) illegal application of military force by Israel, Amnesty International has called for the UN to impose a weapons embargo. It will be interesting to see the new US administration's response.

Amnesty International urges Barack Obama to suspend military aid to Israel

Amnesty called for the UN Security Council to enact an arms embargo until mechanisms were put in place to ensure that equipment was not used to commit violations of international law.

"Israeli forces used white phosphorus and other weapons supplied by the USA to carry out serious violations of international humanitarian law, including war crimes," said Donatella Rovera, who headed an Amnesty fact-finding mission to southern Israel and Gaza.

"Their attacks resulted in the death of hundreds of children and other civilians, and massive destruction of homes and infrastructure."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-Obama-to-suspend-military-aid-to-Israel.html

It seems the pressure for Israel to be held to account for it's murder of Gazan civilians is growing. There appears to be a major shift taking place in world opinion of just who the 'bad' guys are in this conflict and the appointment of the right wing Netanyahu as Israel's new PM reliant on the support of the racist, ultra rightwing, Avigdor Lieberman and his Beiteinu Party can only accelerate this process.

 

[sirchasm]

Appointing hardliners and becoming fanatical supporters of nationalism and its causes, are usually the beginning of the end for an effectively fascist ideology; the nationalist population tends to get tired of being called fascists, racists, war-criminals, etc, after a while.

 

[Evo]

It seems the pressure for Israel to be held to account for it's murder of Gazan civilians is growing.

Stop the misinformation.

There appears to be a major shift taking place in world opinion of just who the 'bad' guys are in this conflict.

I don't see any such shift in opinion.

Fifty-five percent (55%) of adults, however, believe the Palestinians are to blame for the current situation in Gaza, while 13% point the finger at the Israelis. Nearly one-third (32%) aren’t sure.

Sixty-seven percent (67%) of those who say they are following news out of Gaza Very Closely support Israel's military action, while 30% favor diplomacy.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/americans_closely_divided_over_israel_s_gaza_attacks

 

[jostpuur]

Stop the misinformation.

You should not use your moderation power to force your personal political opinions as truths here.

 

[Evo]

You should not use your moderation power to force your personal political opinions as truths here.

He's stating that Israel "murdered" Palestinians. That's misinformation.

 

[tiny-tim]

Amnesty International: "War Crimes by Hamas"

Following the alleged (sic) illegal application of military force by Israel, Amnesty International has called for the UN to impose a weapons embargo. It will be interesting to see the new US administration's response.

That (with the four-paragraph quotation which follows it) is a carefully deliberate one-sided summary of the Amnesty International report and news item …

both the report and the news item criticize both Israel and Hamas, and call for weapons embargos on both Israel and Hamas …

The human rights group said it found evidence that Israel and Hamas had both used weapons supplied from overseas to carry out attacks on civilians, accusing both sides of committing war crimes during the three-week conflict at the start of the year.

The report also said Hamas and other Palestinian groups should be subject to the embargo because they had committed war crimes by attacking Israeli towns with rockets.

… yet you select quotations, and write your own summary, leaving Hamas out completely

One-sided selectivity like this, giving a report a completely different slant, is yet another example of misinformation.

To be fair, of course, Amnesty International knows perfectly well that a weapons embargo on Hamas is unlikely to stop the very war crimes that Amnesty International is charging Hamas with. ​

 

[Alfi]

Re: War Crimes in Gaza
Originally Posted by Art View Post

It seems the pressure for Israel to be held to account for it's murder of Gazan civilians is growing.

Stop the misinformation.

There appears to be a major shift taking place in world opinion of just who the 'bad' guys are in this conflict.

I don't see any such shift in opinion.

Fifty-five percent (55%) of adults, however, believe the Palestinians are to blame for the current situation in Gaza, while 13% point the finger at the Israelis. Nearly one-third (32%) aren’t sure.

Sixty-seven percent (67%) of those who say they are following news out of Gaza Very Closely support Israel's military action, while 30% favor diplomacy.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...s_gaza_attacks

Actually, He's correct. There is a shift in positions. When I started reading about this whole topic I was fairly neutral in that I think both sides are wrong. That use of violence is not the best solution to any problem.
After reading and following questions and links, I can be counted as one of the undecided that is starting to point my finger more and more at Israel and it's American money connections.

 

[Evo]

Actually, He's correct. There is a shift in positions. When I started reading about this whole topic I was fairly neutral in that I think both sides are wrong. That use of violence is not the best solution to any problem.
After reading and following questions and links, I can be counted as one of the undecided that is starting to point my finger more and more at Israel and it's American money connections.

And others have shifted to Israel's side. Art made the claim that

There appears to be a major shift taking place in world opinion of just who the 'bad' guys are in this conflict.

I have seen no evidence of this.

More polls.

Sixty percent of Americans in the nationwide survey said they were sympathetic toward the Israelis, compared with 17 percent who supported the Palestinians, CNN reported today on its Web site. A recent European poll showed that 23 percent of French people said the Palestinian Hamas group was primarily responsible for the war while 18 percent mainly blamed Israel.

The CNN poll showed that 63 percent of Americans felt Israel was justified in taking military action, compared with 30 percent who disagreed. The poll of 1,245 adults was conducted Jan. 12-15, before the Israeli military campaign ended in a cease-fire on Jan. 17. Conducted by Opinion Research Corp., it had a sampling error of plus or minus 3 percentage points.

Sympathy for Israel exceeded that for the Palestinians by a margin of 49 percent to 11 percent, according to the Pew poll. The results narrowed when respondents were questioned on Israel’s military action in Gaza, with 40 percent approving and 33 percent disapproving.

The Pew poll surveyed 1,503 adults Jan. 7-11, with a margin of error at plus or minus 3 percentage points.

The French poll, conducted by CSA, found that 28 percent of respondents blamed Israel and Hamas equally. That telephone survey questioned a representative nationwide sample of 958 people on Jan. 7-8. CSA didn’t report a margin of error on its Web site.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a2oCpwqqFTpw&refer=home

More polls, and some showing history.

http://www.pollingreport.com/israel.htm

 

[humanino]

I have seen no evidence of this.

But you provide very interesting numbers :

|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|    (1)      |  sympathetic toward the Israelis | supported the Palestinians |
|    (2)      |  Hamas was responsible for war   | mainly blamed Israel       |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|  american   |              60%                 |             17%            |
|   french    |              23%                 |             18%            |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|

Can the discrepancy mostly be attributed to the different statements between ligne (1) and (2) , or to the misinformation of one of the two groups of people ? Or is it that american and french people feel differently when it comes to human life and war, given the same situation ? Can this be explained simply at all, or are those numbers only confusing ?

I claim that american people and french people receive different information coverage. I do not intend to back up this claim, but it would certainly explain at least some of the discrepancy above. I further claim that misinformation can only be temporary when it comes to the history of war. Not that it will become perfectly accurate, but there will be something written someday in the books, that if everybody does not agree on, at least everybody knows the other's version. Assuming the hypothesis in this paragraph are correct, at some point, there will be a change which will take place, one way or another, to get back to a better agreement in the numbers above. Where am I going wrong in my understanding ?

edit
If given the number of people interviewed, one can not evaluate the uncertainty

CSA didn’t report a margin of error on its Web site.

then I'd be interested to know how the uncertainty can be evaluated otherwise !?

 

[rootX]

But you provide very interesting numbers :

|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|    (1)      |  sympathetic toward the Israelis | supported the Palestinians |
|    (2)      |  Hamas was responsible for war   | mainly blamed Israel       |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|  american   |              60%                 |             17%            |
|   french    |              23%                 |             18%            |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|

Can the discrepancy mostly be attributed to the different statements between ligne (1) and (2) , or to the misinformation of one of the two groups of people ? Or is it that american and french people feel differently when it comes to human life and war, given the same situation ? Can this be explained simply at all, or are those numbers only confusing ?

American != French
as
Relationship between Americans and Israel != Relationship between French and Israel
Interests of Americans != French interests
American Involvement in the Middle East != http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7880453.stm"

 

[humanino]

American != French

So for you the difference can mostly be explained by the fact that those groups of people feel differently. Please realize that when it comes it was and human life, it seems to me, this is a very strong statement.

 

[Evo]

Can the discrepancy mostly be attributed to the different statements between ligne (1) and (2) , or to the misinformation of one of the two groups of people ? Or is it that american and french people feel differently when it comes to human life and war, given the same situation ? Can this be explained simply at all, or are those numbers only confusing ?

I'd say that it is a number of things, different media exposure, different attitudes, different population demographics, France may also be more likely to have more Palestinians and/or people sympathetic to Palestinians than the US? The last is just a guess. I guess you would know the answer to that humanino.

I believe there was some mention in my first article about the difference in opinions between Europeans and Americans.

 

[rootX]

So for you the difference can mostly be explained by the fact that those groups of people feel differently. Please realize that when it comes it was and human life, it seems to me, this is a very strong statement.

Uhh no, actually there's a big difference between Palestinians and Israelis. Palestinians are Muslims while Israelis are Jews (or "not Muslims ").

IMO, those numbers are meaningless. They are coming out of biased media or national interests. How many of those people actually understand the conflict?

 

[kyleb]

He's stating that Israel "murdered" Palestinians. That's misinformation.

"http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1066231.html" " is what Amiststy cites, how are you differentiating that from murder?

By the way, I'm still wondering how you came to perpetuate the misinformation I inquired about https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2085150&postcount=55".

 

[humanino]

IMO, those numbers are meaningless.

I have been living in both countries, and discussing with similar people (in the same academic environments, not bars or night clubs) and I think thouse numbers, as unpleasant as they are, are quite meaningful.

 

[Art]

Stop the misinformation.

Stop talking nonsense. Amnesty International is highly influential in the field of human rights so when they accuse Israel of war crimes and breaches of international humanitarian law then it is perfectly appropriate to say the pressure on Israel to be held accountable is growing and the unlawful targeting and killing of civilians alleged by Amnesty is murder.

I don't see any such shift in opinion.

What can I say?? Read more and you will, especially if you read what the international press is saying rather than just your domestic media. For example the UK gov't which gave 100% backing to Israel during the Lebanese conflict were highly critical of Israel this time round with some members of parliament calling on the PM to break off diplomatic relations with Israel.

If you want a gross example of misinformation try this

Originally Posted by Evo View Post

Hamas first took over by force then "won" an election. Fair election? When people are in fear of their lives?

People have been banned for a lot less. In fact I was banned by you for reporting that the IRC and the UN were accusing Israel of war crimes, despite this being an irrefutable fact! Now I cite an Amnesty report also accusing Israel of war crimes you accuse me again of misinformation??

BTW I'm still waiting for the PM, you publicly promised, to explain that banning and why in your public response you claimed I was also banned for subsequent posts which you know perfectly well to be untrue for having been banned I couldn't post.

 

[Evo]

"http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1066231.html" " is what Amiststy cites, how are you differentiating that from murder?

Easy, it's not murder.

By the way, I'm still wondering how you came to perpetuate the misinformation I inquired about https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2085150&postcount=55".

I was wrong, I thought that after Hamas took over Gaza by force that the Palestinians had again legitimized them in a vote. Ok, so their takeover has not been legitimized by anyone, which is why they are still considered a terrorist group by the EU, the US, Canada, Israel and Japan, I stand corrected.

 

[Art]

Easy, it's not murder.

More disinformation

mur·der (mûrdr)
n.
1. The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

The accusations made by the IRC the UN, HRW and now Amnesty International that Israel deliberately and indiscriminately targeted civilians resulting in the deaths of those civilians then it is murder, plain and simple.

 

[sirchasm]

Well, many sites that do have the temerity to discuss the situation, have moderators with various views about what is really happening, or what passes for discussion. This is true generally if the moderators are US citizens, perhaps more true for US citizens who have visited Israel, since they see Israel, not Palestine (the Israeli govt. does a quite good job of keeping Palestine and its gradual annexation out of the public eye. most Israelis never get to see any of it, for example).

Therefore uninformed and blinkered viewpoints are pretty much de rigeur, most people like to invent reasons when they don't actually know the facts. I wouldn't feel bad or anything (you're only human after all)
We like to think we understand things, even if we don't really.

 

[Evo]

In fact I was banned by you for reporting that the IRC and the UN were accusing Israel of war crimes, despite this being an irrefutable fact! Now I cite an Amnesty report also accusing Israel of war crimes you accuse me again of misinformation??

Yes stating that Israel is intentionally "murdering" Palestinians is misinformation.

BTW I'm still waiting for the PM, you publicly promised, to explain that banning and why in your public response you claimed I was also banned for subsequent posts which you know perfectly well to be untrue for having been banned I couldn't post.

Those were posts that you made prior to being banned and after your warning on 12-28-08. You made 10 posts after that warning and the mentors decided a 10 day timeout was appropriate.

 

[Evo]

More disinformation The accusations made by the IRC the UN, HRW and now Amnesty International that Israel deliberately and indiscriminately targeted civilians resulting in the deaths of those civilians then it is murder, plain and simple.

No, it's not. That is simply one side's opinion.

 

[humanino]

That is simply one side's opinion.

Yes that's true. It's one side's opinion. Quite an international group of quite important people in some people understanding of what international politics should be, or aim at being. Until an international court appointed by those international authorities issues a judgement about this, we can only choose our side, as to what the judgement will, and should eventually, be.

 

[Evo]

Yes that's true. It's one side's opinion. Quite an international group of quite important people in some people understanding of what international politics should be, or aim at being. Until an international court appointed by those international authorities issues a judgement about this, we can only choose our side, as to what the judgement will, and should eventually, be.

Yes, that is correct.

 

[kyleb]

I was wrong, I thought that after Hamas took over Gaza by force that the Palestinians had again legitimized them in a vote.

This begs the question, what motivates you to present such misinformation in your ardent defense of Israel's conquest over Palestine?

Ok, so their takeover has not been legitimized by anyone, which is why they are still considered a terrorist group by the EU, the US, Canada, Israel and Japan, I stand corrected.

Surely you can't make any reasonable argument that their takeover was less legitimate than the coup attempt we persuaded the losers of that election to attempt against them?

Yes stating that Israel is intentionally "murdering" Palestinians is misinformation.

How can one classify "[d]irect attacks on civilians" as anything less than intentional murder?

 

[Evo]

This begs the question, what motivates you to present such misinformation in your ardent defense of Israel's conquest over Palestine?

That I thought Hamas had been legitimized after the violent takeover?

How can one classify "[d]irect attacks on civilians" as anything less than intentional murder?

Because there is no evidence that these were "direct attacks on civilians". To my knowledge they were attacks on Hamas, Hamas chooses to mix in with civilians. But this has only been pointed out dozens of times here already.

 

[humanino]

Because there is no evidence that these were "direct attacks on civilians". To my knowledge they were attacks on Hamas, Hamas chooses to mix in with civilians. But this has only been pointed out dozens of times here already.

Was this linked ?
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE15/012/2009/en/3301b5c0-189b-4ba2-9bca-68e116fd590f/mde150122009en.pdf


Top 20 Arms and Ammunition Deliveries to Israel between 2004-2007 measured in US$

USA 1,312,909,556
Serbia and Montenegro (2004 only) 8,626,560
Poland 7,455,679
Romania 6,757,241
Serbia24 6,331,138
Korea, South 5,864,486
Slovakia 5,415,005
Czech Republic 4,491,753
Finland 4,138,731
Austria 4,015,987
Italy 3,187,896
Brazil 1,983,166
Bosnia-Herzogovina 1,880,499
Germany 1,531,000
Colombia 1,496,192
Albania 1,255,415
India 1,052,680
Spain 952,725
Netherlands 784,714
UK 754,367
Canada 707,384

 

[Evo]

Was this linked ?
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE15/012/2009/en/3301b5c0-189b-4ba2-9bca-68e116fd590f/mde150122009en.pdf


Top 20 Arms and Ammunition Deliveries to Israel between 2004-2007 measured in US$

USA 1,312,909,556
Serbia and Montenegro (2004 only) 8,626,560
Poland 7,455,679
Romania 6,757,241
Serbia24 6,331,138
Korea, South 5,864,486
Slovakia 5,415,005
Czech Republic 4,491,753
Finland 4,138,731
Austria 4,015,987
Italy 3,187,896
Brazil 1,983,166
Bosnia-Herzogovina 1,880,499
Germany 1,531,000
Colombia 1,496,192
Albania 1,255,415
India 1,052,680
Spain 952,725
Netherlands 784,714
UK 754,367
Canada 707,384

What does this have to do with accusing Israel of intentionally "murdering" civilians?

 

[Art]

Yes stating that Israel is intentionally "murdering" Palestinians is misinformation.

I wasn't there to see first hand (though here we did see on TV actual footage of an ambulance worker being shot at multiple times until he was eventually hit in the leg whilst carrying a stretcher) so the accusations are not mine they are the accusations of highly respectable internationally acclaimed organisations. Now explain how citing those references is misinformation.

Your state of denial despite every major international organisation accusing Israel of war crimes is surely misinformation. Is it not?? Are you actually trying to claim Amnesty International, the UN, the IRC and HRW are not suitable source references on this forum

Those were posts that you made prior to being banned and after your warning on 12-28-08. You made 10 posts after that warning and the mentors decided a 10 day timeout was appropriate.

I received only 2 warnings the second for this post.

Originally Posted by phyzmatix View Post

It seems that the point as to whether or not Hamas and/or law enforcement agencies are legally defined as civilians is moot. Just because civilians were killed, doesn't automatically mean that a war crime has been committed:

My reply Article 51.-Protection of the civilian population

It does if they are civilians and have been deliberately targeted. That's about as cast iron a case of a war crime as you are ever likely to find.

Please explain how this post for which I received a warning breached forum guidelines. I quoted the relevant Geneva convention and I even gave Israel the benefit of the doubt and said IF Israel was targeting civilians not that they definitely were, despite the IRC and UN accusations at that time that they were.

 

[humanino]

What does this have to do with accusing Israel of intentionally "murdering" civilians?

This accusation is explicit in the report from Amnesty International I gave in link.

Independently, the numbers "Arms and Ammunition Deliveries to Israel" I copied are also given in the report. They are supposed to be useful in this discussion, not

having to do anything with accusing Israel of intentionally "murdering" civilians

but, for instance, they are quite useful if one wants to form his/her own opinion about the numbers you provided in #43 which I quoted in #44.

For instance, I have not found

I believe there was some mention in my first article about the difference in opinions between Europeans and Americans.

beyond what was explicitely posted in this discussion.

I think the numbers provided above might illustrate, this is a personal theory only, but nothing better has attracted my attention here so far, if one reads the numbers

|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|    (1)      |  sympathetic toward the Israelis | supported the Palestinians |
|    (2)      |  Hamas was responsible for war   | mainly blamed Israel       |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|  american   |              60%                 |             17%            |
|   french    |              23%                 |             18%            |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|

and naively sees one "abnormal" number significantly different from the others.

 

[Art]

That I thought Hamas had been legitimized after the violent takeover?

Because there is no evidence that these were "direct attacks on civilians". To my knowledge they were attacks on Hamas, Hamas chooses to mix in with civilians. But this has only been pointed out dozens of times here already.

Do you find something ambiguous in this statement from the Amnesty International report

Amnesty International is deeply concerned that weaponry, munitions and other military equipment supplied to Israel have been used by Israeli armed forces to carry out direct attacks on civilians and civilian objects in Gaza

http://www.amnesty.ie/amnesty/upload/images/amnesty_ie/campaigns/Israel%20OPT/Fuelling%20conflict_Final.pdf

It unequivocally states Israel carried out direct attacks on civilians. For you to continue to deny this is incomprehensible.

 

[Evo]

I wasn't there to see first hand (though here we did see on TV actual footage of an ambulance worker being shot at multiple times until he was eventually hit in the leg whilst carrying a stretcher) so the accusations are not mine they are the accusations of highly respectable internationally acclaimed organisations. Now explain how citing those references is misinformation.

Your state of denial despite every major international organisation accusing Israel of war crimes is surely misinformation. Is it not?? Are you actually trying to claim Amnesty International, the UN, the IRC and HRW are not suitable source references on this forum

Art, Amnesty International is a group of people that gather for a cause, similar to Greenpeace and PETA.

I read the Amnesty International article Kyleb posted and even they did not go so far as to claim "murder".

I received only 2 warnings the second for this post.

You received a warning on Dec 28th stating "Please just stick to facts and not attack other members. I'm giving you this warning in lieu of a 3 day timeout. If you don't tone your posts down, I will have no choice." After 10 more posts of a similar nature, a 10 day ban was decided on. We do not give a warning on each individual post if they cover a very short time period. You can go from zero to ban depending on posts without previous infractions.

Have you noticed that you didn't get a warning for the post today? I cut you so much slack, and you don't even realize it. But the forum isn't the place to be discussing your posting history.

 

[Evo]

Do you find something ambiguous in this statement from the Amnesty International report http://www.amnesty.ie/amnesty/upload/images/amnesty_ie/campaigns/Israel%20OPT/Fuelling%20conflict_Final.pdf

It unequivocally states Israel carried out direct attacks on civilians. For you to continue to deny this is incomprehensible.

A non-governmental independent group that states that they are

deeply concerned

but provide no evidence. Like I said...

 

[humanino]

Amnesty International is a group of people that gather for a cause, similar to [...] PETA.

In principle you are correct. But that you compare AI to PETA is enough to convince me that discussing here about those issues is pretty useless. I find it quite shocking actually that you dare such a provocation. When has PETA received a Nobel prize ?

 

[Art]

Art, Amnesty International is a group of people that gather for a cause, similar to Greenpeace and PETA.

I read the Amnesty International article Kyleb posted and even they did not go so far as to claim "murder".

You received a warning on Dec 28th stating "Please just stick to facts and not attack other members. I'm giving you this warning in lieu of a 3 day timeout. If you don't tone your posts down, I will have no choice." After 10 more posts of a similar nature, a 10 day ban was decided on. We do not give a warning on each individual post if they cover a very short time period. You can go from zero to ban depending on posts without previous infractions.

Have you noticed that you didn't get a warning for the post today? I cut you so much slack, and you don't even realize it. But the forum isn't the place to be discussing your posting history.

Amnesty International whom you appear to be trying to dismiss as no big deal is a very highly respected organisation to such an extent the BBC led it's ME news section with this story.

Evo whether you like it or not the intentional killing of civilians by members of the military is murder. Even in a conflict zone. Only a couple of days ago a US soldier was convicted of MURDER following an incident in Iraq

US soldier guilty of Iraq murder

A US soldier has been convicted of murder for his involvement in the killing of four Iraqis who were shot and dumped in a Baghdad canal in 2007.

Sgt Michael Leahy Jr had confessed to investigators that he shot an Iraqi in the back of the head from close range.

His lawyers argued that the stress of being in a conflict zone for so long meant he was unable to reason properly.

But a panel at a court martial in Vilseck, Germany, dismissed the claims and will decide Leahy's sentence later.

The 28-year-old army medic, from Lockport, Illinois, faces a maximum life term in jail and a dishonourable discharge from the army.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7902599.stm

And the fact that you would even consider warning me because you do not understand the charge of murder is ridiculous.

And I agree PMs are better but you don't reply to them.

 

[OAQfirst]

In principle you are correct. But that you compare AI to PETA is enough to convince me that discussing here about those issues is pretty useless. I find it quite shocking actually that you dare such a provocation. When has PETA received a Nobel prize ?

Art, Amnesty International is a group of people that gather for a cause, similar to Greenpeace and PETA.

It's obvious what the comparison is of.