Gainesville Reverend Plans To Burn Qu'ran

[Gokul43201]

Do you consider isolated incidents of lone wackos to be on the same level as a group of hundreds calling for violence in this case? Or the hundreds (thousands?) of photocopy identical Muslim suicide bombers compared to the dozens (maybe) of random, different Christian wackos who've done similar things? I don't.

Every religion has at least a few wackos. Islam has a lot.

Another big problem with that comparison is that it does not factor socio-economic disparities. How is it reasonable to compare the actions of extreme Islamic groups in a third world country with those of extreme Christian groups in a first world country?

Maybe a better comparison would be to look at the actions of Christian extremism in Sub-Saharan Africa. A majority of the Christian population in Uganda, for instance, now wants to put homosexuals to death.

 

[nismaratwork]

Another big problem with that comparison is that it does not factor socio-economic disparities. How is it reasonable to compare the actions of extreme Islamic groups in a third world country with those of extreme Christian groups in a first world country?

Maybe a better comparison would be to look at the actions of Christian extremism in Sub-Saharan Africa. A majority of the Christian population in Uganda, for instance, now wants to put homosexuals to death.

Wow, and they (Xian in Uganda) do not **** around either, from propaganda to "direct action". I'd rather be gay in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan than Uganda.

 

[D H]

What do you need to get an honorary doctorate in theology from unaccredited school? Would a note from god do?

Why get an honorary doctorate? Go whole hog and get a "real" doctorate based on a "real" dissertation! This is the introduction from a thesis that won a doctorate from the Patriot Bible University:

Hello, my name is Kent Hovind. I am a creation/science evangelist. I live in Pensacola, Florida. I have been a high school science teacher since 1976. I've been very active in the creation/evolution controversy for quite some time.​

You can read all of Hovind's "dissertation" here: http://file.wikileaks.org/file/kent-hovind-doctoral-dissertation.pdf

 

[nismaratwork]

Why get an honorary doctorate? Go whole hog and get a "real" doctorate based on a "real" dissertation! This is the introduction from a thesis that won a doctorate from the Patriot Bible University:

Hello, my name is Kent Hovind. I am a creation/science evangelist. I live in Pensacola, Florida. I have been a high school science teacher since 1976. I've been very active in the creation/evolution controversy for quite some time.​

You can read all of Hovind's "dissertation" here: http://file.wikileaks.org/file/kent-hovind-doctoral-dissertation.pdf

Please tell me this is a funny hoax. Please. ><

 

[Gokul43201]

You can read all of Hovind's "dissertation" here: http://file.wikileaks.org/file/kent-hovind-doctoral-dissertation.pdf

Must ... r e s i s t . . . .

 

[zomgwtf]

Why get an honorary doctorate? Go whole hog and get a "real" doctorate based on a "real" dissertation! This is the introduction from a thesis that won a doctorate from the Patriot Bible University:

Hello, my name is Kent Hovind. I am a creation/science evangelist. I live in Pensacola, Florida. I have been a high school science teacher since 1976. I've been very active in the creation/evolution controversy for quite some time.​

You can read all of Hovind's "dissertation" here: http://file.wikileaks.org/file/kent-hovind-doctoral-dissertation.pdf

lol.

 

[russ_watters]

I'll post more when I'm not posting from a BlackBerry, but
apeiron (and anyone else who agrees with him), are you saying that the killing of this pastor by any random Muslim would be justifiable based on the principle of asymetric warfare?

 

[nismaratwork]

I'll post more when I'm not posting from a BlackBerry, but
apeiron (and anyone else who agrees with him), are you saying that the killing of this pastor by any random Muslim would be justifiable based on the principle of asymetric warfare?

I don't agree with that, but I'd still like to see him "mysteriously vanish" before he manages to incite additional violence for his protest. I've heard his viewpoint, and he's a disgusting human being, having nothing to do with this publicity stunt of his. What can I say, I'm nowhere near Muslim, but he strikes me as someone who would be improved by death.

 

[lisab]

I don't agree with that, but I'd still like to see him "mysteriously vanish" before he manages to incite additional violence for his protest. I've heard his viewpoint, and he's a disgusting human being, having nothing to do with this publicity stunt of his. What can I say, I'm nowhere near Muslim, but he strikes me as someone who would be improved by death.

I hope we can all agree on this analogy -

This pastor : Christians :: 9-11 terrorists : Muslims

 

[Galteeth]

Wow, and they (Xian in Uganda) do not **** around either, from propaganda to "direct action". I'd rather be gay in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan than Uganda.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord's_Resistance_Army

 

[Char. Limit]

I hope we can all agree on this analogy -

This pastor : Christians :: 9-11 terrorists : Muslims

I can agree with that.

 

[D H]

I hope we can all agree on this analogy -

This pastor : Christians :: 9-11 terrorists : Muslims

Count me out. Other wacko Christians, yes. This one, no. He's just exercising his 1st amendment rights. The first amendment is not there to protect the speech of people with whom you violently agree. It is there to protect the speech that is utterly disgusting and without value.

There is an immense gap between what this pastor plans to do and what radical elements of Islam have done. And yes, I have seen this guys ilk before. The Westboro Baptist Church set up shop right outside the Johnson Space Center's main gate after the Columbia disaster. Their speech was utterly disgusting, without merit, but completely protected.

 

[Char. Limit]

Count me out. Other wacko Christians, yes. This one, no. He's just exercising his 1st amendment rights. The first amendment is not there to protect the speech of people with whom you violently agree. It is there to protect the speech that is utterly disgusting and without value.

There is an immense gap between what this pastor plans to do and what radical elements of Islam have done. And yes, I have seen this guys ilk before. The Westboro Baptist Church set up shop right outside the Johnson Space Center's main gate after the Columbia disaster. Their speech was utterly disgusting, without merit, but completely protected.

You must be reading the analogy differently than I am... I thought of...

[Pastor Jones] is representative of [Christians] as [the 9-11 terrorists] are representative of [Muslims]

So, if you're willing to accept the idea that the 9-11 terrorists are representative of Muslims, and many Christians are, then you must logically accept the idea that Pastor Jones is representative of Christians.

 

[lisab]

You must be reading the analogy differently than I am... I thought of...

[Pastor Jones] is representative of [Christians] as [the 9-11 terrorists] are representative of [Muslims]

So, if you're willing to accept the idea that the 9-11 terrorists are representative of Muslims, and many Christians are, then you must logically accept the idea that Pastor Jones is representative of Christians.

That's just how I meant it, thanks Char. Limit. I wasn't making judgements on the legality of the actions.

 

[Cyrus]

The last time I checked, this was still a free country. If the man wants to burn him some books, he is free to burn all the books he can afford - and of any variety or type.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The last time I checked, this was still a free country. If the man wants to burn him some books, he is free to burn all the books he can afford - and of any variety or type.

No doubt, he is free to burn books, and we are free to criticize him as the irresponsible, misguided, and cowardly fool that he is.

What is sad is that this pock mark on the face of humanity gets so much attention.

 

[drankin]

So what's worse, burning the quran or murdering the individual that burns it? Sure, he is antagonising murderous religious zealots, but that isn't a crime. I think he should burn a bible too just to be fair, but it's not my party.

 

[cronxeh]

Well now.. he is just as important as anybody else. For that matter, howcome nobody ever questions me for CNN? I have crazy ideas too

 

[Char. Limit]

Sure, he is antagonising murderous religious zealots, but that isn't a crime.

It's not a crime, but I believe that it is a defense.

 

[apeiron]

I'll post more when I'm not posting from a BlackBerry, but
apeiron (and anyone else who agrees with him), are you saying that the killing of this pastor by any random Muslim would be justifiable based on the principle of asymetric warfare?

Why would I be saying that?

You commented on an asymmetry of religious wackos. I suggested you think deeper about the causes of such an asymmetry. Look at the geopolitics rather than blaming the religions involved.

Uneducated fundamentalist US rednecks can be just as dangerous as their equivalents in any other country. It is just that they are not being recruited for someone's army at the moment.

So I'm disturbed that you continue to make such facile arguments in what is meant to be an educated political forum.

 

[drankin]

Uneducated fundamentalist US rednecks can be just as dangerous as their equivalents in any other country.

We have our occasion lone wackos but there has NEVER been a group of "Uneducated fundamentalist US rednecks" that has hijacked a plane, caused thousands of deaths in a single terrorist act, videotaped beheadings... not even comparable, but nice try.

 

[DaveC426913]

We have our occasion lone wackos but there has NEVER been a group of "Uneducated fundamentalist US rednecks" that has hijacked a plane, caused thousands of deaths in a single terrorist act, videotaped beheadings... not even comparable, but nice try.

Really? You're going to put up a scoreboard?

OK, well how about cross-burning and lynchings?

Or do you have a threshold of 'bad enough'?

 

[drankin]

Really? You're going to put up a scoreboard?

OK, well how about cross-burning and lynchings?

Cross burning? Come on.

Lynchings? Are you kidding? When was the last lynching? Let's stick to this century.

Yes, let's keep a scoreboard, but the cross burning doesn't really crossover to anyone of my examples.

 

[DaveC426913]

When was the last lynching? Let's stick to this century.

Perhaps you should check your facts first. Or your math...

Yes, let's keep a scoreboard, but the cross burning doesn't really crossover to anyone of my examples.

So, yes then. You have a threshold, below which racist murder is acceptable, but above which, you find it intolerable.

Got it.

 

[turbo]

Remember the Oklahoma City bombing? McVeigh did not act alone. What about religious fundamentalists that terrorize providers and clients at abortion clinics and assassinate doctors? Christians have bad actors, too. This should not devolve into an exercise in relativism.

 

[drankin]

Perhaps you should check your facts first. Or your math...



So, yes then. You have a threshold, below which racist murder is acceptable, but above which, you find it intolerable.

Got it.

Nice try, Dave. Way to pull a race card. Your conclusions are distorted. Redneck terrorism does not even compare to the scale of that terrorism Islamic extremists have committed. To suggest otherwise is... wierd.

 

[JaredJames]

Slightly off topic, but something I feel has relevance here:

What about terrorists (or any groups) that commit crimes and have nothing to do with religious groups?

I don't know any numbers regarding how many 'terrorist acts' are committed without the cover of religion, perhaps someone could provide some numbers.

It seems everyone is Religion A vs Religion B (which is the subject of this thread), but seeing as it is digressing into general talks not specific to this thread, I think people should consider acts by those who are not acting under religion.

I think this debate is becoming, how bad is each religion, so why not throw in some numbers which would compare terrorism with religion and terrorism without. So it can be gauged if religion is a strong cause for these acts (as opposed to money, assets etc as point out earlier) or whether it just the cover used.

 

[JaredJames]

For the record, I disagree with what this guy is doing as it is clearly an attempt at getting a reaction from Islam as a religion, with nothing to do with the terrorists themselves.

 

[apeiron]

We have our occasion lone wackos but there has NEVER been a group of "Uneducated fundamentalist US rednecks" that has hijacked a plane, caused thousands of deaths in a single terrorist act, videotaped beheadings... not even comparable, but nice try.

Err, you conveniently missed the bit about wackos being cynically recruited to a geopolitical cause. So as you say, nice try.

There is certainly a demographic in the US who could be recruited as the likes of Timothy McVeigh surely demonstrated.

 

[Char. Limit]

Slightly off topic, but something I feel has relevance here:

What about terrorists (or any groups) that commit crimes and have nothing to do with religious groups?

I think this debate is becoming, how bad is each religion, so why not throw in some numbers which would compare terrorism with religion and terrorism without. So it can be gauged if religion is a strong cause for these acts (as opposed to money, assets etc as point out earlier) or whether it just the cover used.

Well, here is a list of terrorist incidents in Great Britain, the vast majority of which were committed by the Irish Republican Army, a non-religious terrorist group.

I don't know of any others, but I'm certain there is. Human nature is to hate what is not like yourself, be that religion, race, and of course nationality (like the IRA).

 

[apeiron]

I think this debate is becoming, how bad is each religion, so why not throw in some numbers which would compare terrorism with religion and terrorism without. So it can be gauged if religion is a strong cause for these acts (as opposed to money, assets etc as point out earlier) or whether it just the cover used.

That is absolutely the point here. A "christian" is pulling a stunt to make it seem that some kind of religious war is going on here. People like Russ and Drankin seem to be falling for it.

In the minds of the people pulling the strings - the terrorist groups, the governments on the other side - it is just an asymmetric power struggle.

Well, maybe Bush did represent the "we're fighting the evil infidel" school of thought . Maybe like Russ he did believe in world painted black and white.

But then Bush wasn't really pulling the strings was he? He seemed more like one of those dangerous fundamentalists recruited by a geopolitical cause. A lot of death and destruction certainly resulted from the guy's ability to initiate military action.

Who needs a McVeigh, or even a whole photocopied squad of brainwashed McVeighs, when you have a Dubya safely tucked in your corporate pocket?

 

[JaredJames]

Char. Limit, an interesting list. Thank you.

 

[drankin]

Err, you conveniently missed the bit about wackos being cynically recruited to a geopolitical cause. So as you say, nice try.

There is certainly a demographic in the US who could be recruited as the likes of Timothy McVeigh surely demonstrated.

McVeigh recruited himself and Nichols. He was not religiously motivated, which is the point.

If anyone is murdered over this guy burning the Quran, it definitely would be RELIGIOUSLY motivated.

If an imam burned a bible it may hurt some peoples feelings but that's about it.

 

[nismaratwork]

I hope we can all agree on this analogy -

This pastor : Christians :: 9-11 terrorists : Muslims

No, because I believe that this pastor is:

1: Doing this for publicity and
2: Likely to back down...

... that's a win for him. Who would have heard of this jackass if not for this, right? He'd never have been on CNN or Fox or anything else for that matter. Then again, maybe he's really certifiable, and he's going to really do it... the fool.

Finally: 3: He's not killing anyone by his own hand. It's one thing to potentially create risk for yourself and others, it's another to take down planes and skyscrapers.

Now, if you make it "Doctors who perform abortions killers/Gay bashers and killers etc...:Christians :: 9-11 terrorists : Muslims, then yes, I'd agree. If you just meant that he is no more representative of Christians as a whole than the hijackers were of Muslims as a whole, I agree with that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord's_Resistance_Army

Yeah, I'm familiar with those psychotics, and that kind of thing really makes me glad I'm not a gay Ugandan... and make me despair for the human race.

The last time I checked, this was still a free country. If the man wants to burn him some books, he is free to burn all the books he can afford - and of any variety or type.

True, and people can run around calling every black person they meet 'the n-word', but I wouldn't recommend the practice. What I find absolutely hilarious is that many people making the "they have the right" argument are blasting the same argument regarding the Muslim community center in NYC. I have no idea what your stance is on that, so let me be clear that your comment is just a springboard for mine, and I am NOT commenting on what you may or may not believe.

The "have the right, but should they" argument has been tossed around a lot in the media and public lately regarding this cultural center. In my view, it's a silly use of that argument which reflects a kind of hysteria. On the other hand, that argument really DOES apply to this book-burning. I don't disagree that in both cases there isn't a legal leg to stand on in opposing the actions, but for the sake of their own longevity, never mind possible incitement to violence overseas, you'd think the "should" question might be a relevant one.

I have no issues with burning a flag of any given country, including my own, but I don't do it just because I can. I don't care, because I recognize it as a symbol and nothing magical, but I don't burn it for the exact same reason... plus I have some respect for those who DO believe otherwise.

In the same way, I'm an atheist, pure and simple, so bibles and qurans and torahs and vedic scriptures etc. don't mean anything to me, but out of simple respect I wouldn't burn any of them. The only reason I can think to do it, would be to really REALLY upset (read: piss off) someone or some group, and that's a pretty lousy reason to do anything. Clearly this is a publicity stunt, and if they were to do the same thing in the middle of a muslim rally maybe the argument could be made that they are attempting to incite violence... but this is to diffuse to make that argument.

On the flipside, it's pretty stunning that some idiot in Florida can do something that would cause VIOLENCE overseas. I have no doubt that images of this burning will be in Al Qaeda recruitment videos for years to come, so it's pretty unfortunate, and it will help some really crazy overseas politicians. Oh well.

Drankin: There are plenty of nutcase Christians out there, and the fact that they shoot doctors one at a time, or road-haul a gay boy to death one at a time just says they don't have the same organization. If I walked into a baptist revival in rural Georgia, and burned a christian bible I'd probably be lucky to make it out alive.

 

[Char. Limit]

If an imam burned a bible it may hurt some peoples feelings but that's about it.

We don't know that. In fact, I think that's a dangerous assumption to make. I can think of more than a few people who would react dangerously to an imam burning a bible.

Note that I'm not talking about bible-burning in general. But if an imam were to burn a bible, I think that Pastor Jones for one would be trying to kill him, among many other wackos.