Helping Unprepared Students: The Ironies and Challenges

[jackmell]

May I complain about something I feel is unfair? Here's the scenario:

A poor helpless student comes here with a problem and says, "I have no idea where to begin" or something like that and the forum rules are "you must show your work to get help".

Well, does anyone see a contradiction there? How can they show their work if they don't have a clue how to start? And what, poor sympathetic me comes along and thinks, "well, I know just what they need" but no, I'll get popped if I "intervene" so like a good worker-bee I say nothing and the Riemann Hypothesis remains unproven.

Alas, I am beset by the ironies in my life.
Jack

 

[arildno]

Well, "I have no idea" is NEVER acceptable.
Students do have thoughts on what might be relevant equations, or at the very least they should be able to pin-point what they don't understand.

 

[jackmell]

Well, "I have no idea" is NEVER acceptable.
Students do have thoughts on what might be relevant equations, or at the very least they should be able to pin-point what they don't understand.

Well arildno, I'm a little disappointed you're so unsympathetic to this matter with a "just let them drown" attitude. Sometimes they really don't have a clue I believe, no thoughts, no relevant equations, no pin-points, no nothing. But if we could just give them a nudge, just get them over the top, past the critical point, they might blossom!

I know I'm right about this matter and would hope one day PF could relax the rules a bit.

 

[ZapperZ]

Sorry, but this is not THAT harsh. A student must know SOMETHING to be in that class. Even if he/she doesn't know where to start, at the very lease he/she should know the CHAPTER that is relevant to the problem.

For example, say this is a kinematic problem. He/she should at least have seen the typical kinematic a equations and be able to write those down, even if he/she doesn't know which one to use. We will at least know where to start! If the student isn't even aware of these, then there are bigger problems here than just solving this problem. Simply saying he/she doesn't know where to start tells us NOTHING about what that person knows and don't know. And for many of us who care about teaching them how to fish, knowing what skills and knowledge that are already there is a vital piece of information!

Let be clear on this. It takes considerably MORE effort on the part of the helper to do it this way, rather than just blurt out the answer or the staring point. It takes a lot of careful thoughts and guidance to guide someone to discover for him/herself where to find what to use and how to use it. Yet, many of us know that this is one of the most effective means to teach someone effectively AND for it to be fair that that person is actually doing the work if this is a HW problem.

Zz.

 

[Evo]

Unless they slept through class, how can they have "no idea"? They should have enough knowledge to at least be able to make an attempt. We're not here to handhold people that paid no attention in class.

Edit: Zz said it much better.

 

[arildno]

Well arildno, I'm a little disappointed you're so unsympathetic to this matter with a "just let them drown" attitude. Sometimes they really don't have a clue I believe, no thoughts, no relevant equations, no pin-points, no nothing. But if we could just give them a nudge, just get them over the top, past the critical point, they might blossom!

I know I'm right about this matter and would hope one day PF could relax the rules a bit.

Well, they are perfectly able to say, for example: "What does that particular symbol mean?"
What does the book mean with "that phrase"?

So no, ALL students are perfectly able to identify a number of specific sub-problems they have, if they just bother to formulate them.

 

[Vanadium 50]

"I have no idea" is lazy and unacceptable.

A better answer is "I tried X, Y and Z, and now I have no idea what to try next."
An even better answer is "I tried X, and this happened. Then I tried Y and this happened. If I can show W, I can see how Z might work, but I have no idea how to show that."

 

[phinds]

A poor helpless student ...

Is fairly pathetic. As others have pointed out, "I have no idea" is laziness personified.

 

[lisab]

I think I understand jackmell's point here.

If a person is sleep-deprived, scared, overwhelmed, homesick, frustrated, and full of self-doubt (maybe for the first time in their lives), then it's easy to lose one's bearings and truly "have no idea". Once they calm down, take a deep breath, get a full night's sleep and a good meal, then they have more confidence. Then, they will remember what chapter they're on and what the relevant concepts are.

When someone comes here for help, it can often feel (to them) like we are their last resort. Their lives are already full of harsh reality, sometimes all they need is a bit of encouragement.

 

[Saitama]

"I have no idea" is lazy and unacceptable.

Please don't attribute this to laziness. As a frequent poster in homework help section, I do have sometimes "no idea" to begin with but that doesn't mean I am being lazy. For instance, I posted the following thread yesterday:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=716088

After the hints, I did take the time to post my complete attempt. I hope you don't call that laziness.

 

[Evo]

I think I understand jackmell's point here.

If a person is sleep-deprived, scared, overwhelmed, homesick, frustrated, and full of self-doubt (maybe for the first time in their lives), then it's easy to lose one's bearings and truly "have no idea". Once they calm down, take a deep breath, get a full night's sleep and a good meal, then they have more confidence. Then, they will remember what chapter they're on and what the relevant concepts are.

When someone comes here for help, it can often feel (to them) like we are their last resort. Their lives are already full of harsh reality, sometimes all they need is a bit of encouragement.

And that's exactly what we do, we encourage them to go back and rethink things. What we don't do is start spoon feeding them so that they think they can get away with making no effort and expect someone to rescue them.

 

[Evo]

Please don't attribute this to laziness. As a frequent poster in homework help section, I do have sometimes "no idea" to begin with but that doesn't mean I am being lazy. For instance, I posted the following thread yesterday:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=716088

After the hints, I did take the time to post my complete attempt. I hope you don't call that laziness.

You probably don't see the level of laziness we do. I constantly see people erase the template, upload a jpg that is barely readable and say "Hlp please!

 

[davenn]

I have to agree with the common sentiment here
I'm active on a number of forums and it just blows me away, over and over again the general laziness of people these days... they seem to want to have everything handed to them on a silver platter.
90% of the time, if they just typed their question into google, they would have come up with a bunch of good answers. If then they still had misunderstandings/doubts etc and then came here and asked resonably specific questions, I would respect that action a lot more and be much more willing to lead them in the right direction
For any of us at ~ 40 yrs old and older, we never had google or even much internet when we were all doing our high school, college or university studies.
I spent hours and hours reading books in the university library, and only after lots of digging for info on my own and I still didnt understand something, I would go to my my lecturers etc for further explanation.
I'm sure a lot of you fellow "seniors" here could identify with that

That's my 2 cents

Dave

 

[Borek]

When someone comes here for help, it can often feel (to them) like we are their last resort.

Sadly, some people treat us as a first resort.

People posting at PF are already past the first step of help - they were given a template that should force them and help them organize their thoughts. Often they already ignored it.

That being said - I understand the jackmell sentiment, sometimes I feel the same way. But honestly, I have no idea which approach is better - making them face harsh reality, or leaving no kid behind. It basically boils down to this choice.

 

[arildno]

Well, I don't really see jakmell's point.
For, it is perfectly acceptable at PF to give a first answer to "I have no idea" as, for example:
"Are there some words in the text you do not understand?" rather than "Show us your work".

 

[SteamKing]

From some of the posts, you would think that the posters had never stepped in the class in the first place and had no texts or other reference materials available. A lot of questions can be answered with a quick Google or Yahoo. I'm not a big fan of knowing all the answers, but knowing where to find the answers is often half the battle.

 

[mfb]

Please don't attribute this to laziness. As a frequent poster in homework help section, I do have sometimes "no idea" to begin with but that doesn't mean I am being lazy. For instance, I posted the following thread yesterday:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=716088

After the hints, I did take the time to post my complete attempt. I hope you don't call that laziness.

What about formulas for (total) linear and angular momentum?

"I have no idea where to start" might have been possible 15+ years ago, if the library was closed at that point.
In 2013, I have no idea how you cannot be able to find anything about the topic of homework problems. Find some equations about the topic, try to see if they seem to have some relevance for the problem, show what you did, and you are at least (often more) one step beyond "I have no idea".

 

[jackmell]

And for many of us who care about teaching them how to fish, knowing what skills and knowledge that are already there is a vital piece of information!

Let be clear on this. It takes considerably MORE effort on the part of the helper to do it this way, rather than just blurt out the answer or the staring point. It takes a lot of careful thoughts and guidance to guide someone to discover for him/herself where to find what to use and how to use it. Yet, many of us know that this is one of the most effective means to teach someone effectively AND for it to be fair that that person is actually doing the work if this is a HW problem.

Zz.

First, I believe I'm a gifted teacher even though my wonderful talents often go unnoticed. So being such, I believe I know what it takes to succeed in that endeavour. Often I will suggest working on a different, simpler problem and if necessary, help them through it. And if they succeed, the knowledge they gained solving this simpler problem will propel them through the problem they're having difficulty with.

Now, this morning I checked the thread that prompted me to start this one and the OP is not replying with "I got it!" He needs more help than the limited help given because of our rule for not helping until you show some work. If he doesn't solve it, have we not as teachers, failed to accomplish our goal? But we could succeed: suggest a simpler problem to work on, and start if for them just a little bit so they get some type of "hold" on it. Oh that won't give the answer but it's close and if they work through it, if they know from me telling them that effort on this simple problem will take them over the hump and give them the knowledge to solve the original problem, then they will be encouraged to try and just that little bit might be enough to cause something wonderful to happen. :)

The smallest of effects can have the greatest of consequences.

 

[jackmell]

In 2013, I have no idea how you cannot be able to find anything about the topic of homework problems. Find some equations about the topic, try to see if they seem to have some relevance for the problem, show what you did, and you are at least (often more) one step beyond "I have no idea".

Ok, I agree. The student should at least google some relevant key words and often that will be helpful. It's a little tiring though to always suggest google and to be fair, perhaps we should already be assuming the student has done that to no avail and that's why they're asking for more help here.

 

[arildno]

"perhaps we should already be assuming the student has done that to no avail and that's why they're asking for more help here. "
Why is reality denial a virtue?
Many students don't bother to read their textbooks, nor make any other efforts on their own. That's an empirical fact.

 

[1MileCrash]

I too think there is a difference between someone who "has no idea" and just needs an initial push in the right direction, and a lazy student who just came in for the answer.

It also depends on the question being asked. It's hard to imagine how a calculus student could "not know where to start" when taking a derivative, but physics problems are sometimes hard to set up, and writing proofs are also sometimes hard to start. So I think the judgment should be left to the homework helper, and they certainly shouldn't receive infractions unless they are literally giving them the answer, IMHO.

 

[arildno]

First, I believe I'm a gifted teacher even though my wonderful talents often go unnoticed. So being such, I believe I know what it takes to succeed in that endeavour. Often I will suggest working on a different, simpler problem and if necessary, help them through it. And if they succeed, the knowledge they gained solving this simpler problem will propel them through the problem they're having difficulty with.

Now, this morning I checked the thread that prompted me to start this one and the OP is not replying with "I got it!" He needs more help than the limited help given because of our rule for not helping until you show some work. If he doesn't solve it, have we not as teachers, failed to accomplish our goal? But we could succeed: suggest a simpler problem to work on, and start if for them just a little bit so they get some type of "hold" on it. Oh that won't give the answer but it's close and if they work through it, if they know from me telling them that effort on this simple problem will take them over the hump and give them the knowledge to solve the original problem, then they will be encouraged to try and just that little bit might be enough to cause something wonderful to happen. :)

The smallest of effects can have the greatest of consequences.

1. "Often I will suggest working on a different, simpler problem and if necessary, help them through it. "
And I've never seen a case where a Homework Helper says: "Okay, let's look at a simpler problem A first! How would you solve that?", and the HH is being criticized for that at PF.
If you prefer that take, do so!

 

[jackmell]

1. "Often I will suggest working on a different, simpler problem and if necessary, help them through it. "
And I've never seen a case where a Homework Helper says: "Okay, let's look at a simpler problem A first! How would you solve that?", and the HH is being criticized for that at PF.
If you prefer that take, do so!

That's not exactly what I had in mind. Sometimes they need help starting even the simpler one. My suggestions, even though I suspect it will not be met with approval, is to either start the simpler one for them or actually work through it so that they can study it and then hopefully apply what they learned to solve the problem they are asking for help.

Now, may I ask if this approach is not acceptable to PF because I have done such on numerous occasions and if it is not in line with the rules, I should have to adjust my wonderful teaching practices here or maybe just scrap HW entirely although I shall find that difficult to do as I just seem attracted to intervene when I feel the help is not helping. Although I do not wish to die of accumulated infraction toxicity either.

 

[arildno]

Well, I have never received infractions for asking questions like: "Can you name some of the forces appearing in this problem?"
"Can you state Newton's second law of motion?"

And so on.

 

[jackmell]

You know guys, just the other day I received a wonderful compliment. Not to brag or anything as I'm quite a modest fellow, but I was describing what I believe is one of the most formidable concepts to master in Complex Analysis to someone. No, not the Alice story which I though was brilliant also but I digress. Anyway, they said (pharaphrase), "that was amazingly informative and now I think I'll be better able to understand these types of problems". Well that was a simpler problem example although I do find the "Thanks" hard to come by in here. What, need 50 or so to get one of those awards? At my rate I'm thinking 2 years.

 

[arildno]

It is perfectly allowable at PF to reply to an "I have no idea" without giving away answers, put posting questions to OP he or she should be able to answer.
You know what?
After several years here, I know that those with low confidence in themselves and not really lazy, will respond and try their best.
The lazy ones quit even if you just require of them to answer "What does Newton's second law say?", and won't respond. Unless they get annoyed, that is, pulling up some line: "Can't you just say how I should do this problem?"

 

[Astronuc]

When a student/member initiates a thread in Homework, he or she will find instructions and a template:

Increase your chance to get a response!
• Use the template provided
• You must show your attempt at solving the problem
• Write the text of the problem here, not in an attachment or an image.
• Use an interesting and descriptive multi-word title
• Be comprehensive and clear with your message
• Be friendly and courteous
• Use correct spelling and grammar

Homework Statement

How can one have "no idea"?! Write the problem down and identify key variables. Relevant equations should correspond to those variables.

Homework Equations

One should have lecture notes or textbook with which one should be able to find 'relevant equations'.

The Attempt at a Solution

One must demonstrate effort!

The process seems straightforward, and certainly not hard or difficult. We simply require students to demonstrate effort and show their work. A professional must do the same; engineers develop a calculation note or calcnote, in which the problem is stated, inputs shown, equations shown, and the calculation. That calculation is peer-reviewed. Hopefully students are developing in maturity during university, as well as developing skills with which to be productive individuals.


In the engineering program at the university I attended, students were required to start with the problem statement with "Given:" in which we rewrote the problem. Then one would identify the variables and equations. Then one would work through the solution.

A student should not wait until the last minute!

One hour of class time requires three hours of study and homework. As one becomes proficient, one may require less time to study per hour of classroom.

 

[consciousness]

It is perfectly allowable at PF to reply to an "I have no idea" without giving away answers, put posting questions to OP he or she should be able to answer.

And this is why this rule is justified. This covers the loopholes of fact based questions. For example see this question that I posted. I wrote "no idea" in my attempt, not because I am lazy(see my subsequent posts) but because organic chem is so vast and fragmented that given the large number of possible reasoning, I genuinely had no idea. Thankfully I was given a nudge in the right direction through a question by someone more experienced.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=704909

 

[arildno]

Well, chemisttree gave a good reply, and you showed a lot in your next post.
The lazy ones (and there are many of them!) wouldn't have bothered to give a detailed reply like you did.

 

[WannabeNewton]

I personally just can't fathom how a person can literally have "no idea" how to start a problem. If you went to class and listened then you should obviously have some inkling of what to do. Maybe it's not taking you down the right road or maybe you don't know what the next step should be but essentially saying "I literally have no idea how to do anything regarding this, even though I went to class and/or read the relevant sections from the text outside of class" just seems ridiculous.

 

[jackmell]

If you went to class and listened then you should obviously have some inkling of what to do.

That depends entirely on how good your teacher is and how good the textbook is and how smart your are.

I frequently work on problems I have no idea how to solve. Working on one right now but I learned something from a wise member in here some time ago: "you don't just stare at it and wait for the answer to pop into your head, you try things and if they don't work, try something else."

My road through math is littered with wrong ones.

 

[WannabeNewton]

I frequently work on problems I have no idea how to solve. Working on one right now but I learned something from a wise member in here some time ago: "you don't just stare at it and wait for the answer to pop into your head, you try things and if they don't work, try something else."

Exactly but there has to be some struggle involved from the offset and some amount of effort put into the problem before throwing one's hands into the air. And in this process one will certainly have come up with more than just "I have no idea" even if it isn't close to the answer by any means.

 

[arildno]

"My road through math is littered with wrong ones. "

This is, of course, a UNIVERSAL experience.
Those with low self-esteem think it is only they who make wrong choices, and are too shy to post them without being "forced" to do so. When somebody writes "Show us what you've done so far", they tend to answer in a hesitant manner, and one may proceed from there.

 

[Nugatory]

I personally just can't fathom how a person can literally have "no idea" how to start a problem.

Sometimes what's going on in these situations is not that someone literally has no idea how to start the problem, but rather that they don't know that they have an idea. For example, there's this thread (from #10): https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=716088 where OP said "I have no idea... I just need a hint" - anyone who knows that they just need a hint is well beyond literally having idea where to start.

Of course that thread is also an example in a which a "no idea where to start" question moved quickly to a happy resolution - which supports my belief that the HH community is generally pretty good about tolerating and encouraging those who approach their problems with the intention of learning, even after they fall afoul of rules that are intended to keep the answer-cadgers away.

 

[WannabeNewton]

Sometimes what's going on in these situations is not that someone literally has no idea how to start the problem, but rather that they don't know that they have an idea.

Yeah this I can definitely relate to. Sometimes a problem just looks so scary that even if I potentially know how to approach it, I usually don't have enough confidence to go with my initial plan of attack.