String non-theory failing its tests -we need a replacement

[marcus]

String non-theory failing its "tests"---we need a replacement

http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=3338
String Theory Fails Another Test, the “Supertest”
==sample excerpt==
Wednesday’s CMS result finding no black holes in early LHC data has led to internet headlines such as String Theory Fails First Major Experimental Test (for what this really means, see here). At a talk today at CERN, yet another impressive new CMS result was announced, this one causing even more trouble for string theory (if you believe in purported LHC tests of string theory, that is…).

Back in 1997, Physics Today published an article by Gordon Kane with the title String Theory is Testable, Even Supertestable. It included as Figure 2 a detailed spectrum which was supposed to show the sort of thing that string theory predicts.

...At CERN today, the CMS talk in the end-of-year LHC jamboree has a slide labeled “First SUSY Result at the LHC!”, showing dramatically larger exclusion ranges for possible squark and gluino masses. Over much of the relevant range, gluino masses are now excluded all the way up to 650 GeV. It looks like string theory has failed the “supertest”.

If you believe that string theory “predicts” low-energy supersymmetry, this is a serious failure. ...
==endquote==

It's clear that string theory is fine as a mathematical theory. Interesting and with many potential uses. I have never criticized string theory as such---though sometimes skeptical of claims by the theorists.

On the other hand as physics theories of unification go it has not produced predictions (or even a clear formulation of M-theory). Advertised "predictions"---more hopes than tests---like large extra dimensions, collider black holes, low-energy supersymmetry---do not seem to be working out.

What could we turn to as an alternative physical theory of unification? Something to think speculatively about, instead of this growing disillusionment.

Would Connes spectral geometry fill the bill? It does not require supersymmetry. It does not raise the tantalizing prospect of collider black holes. It makes some concrete physical predictions. It appears to be a serious unification bid.

Maybe the Connes NCG realization of the Standard Model could fill the mental gap, as a speculative unification prospect.

 

[arivero]

Connes model is better, because it is near of Kaluza Klein that string theory. String theoretists abandoned Kaluza Klein in 1984, lured by the oportunities of E8xE8, SO(32), etc...

But Connes should have supersymmetry somewhere, if it is living in dimension 10.

 

[MTd2]

But this is not string theory being ruled out, but the simples supersymmetric models. If anything, this would discourage any attempt to come up with any susy theories.

 

[yoda jedi]

and

http://people.roma2.infn.it/~glast/A191.Fermi.nature.GRB.pdf

...even our most conservative limits greatly reduce the parameter space for n=1
models....Our other limits, and especially our least conservative limit.... make such theories highly implausible *


*string theory, same thing for loop theory.



-----------------------

......A value this close to the Planck length means that quantum gravity models in which there's a linear relationship between photon energy and speed are "highly implausible." That leaves other quantum gravity options open, including those in which the the relationship is non-linear. Hopefully, theoreticians will be able to devise real-world tests for some of these....


the ultimate theory have to be nonlinear.

 

[Careful]

and

http://people.roma2.infn.it/~glast/A191.Fermi.nature.GRB.pdf

...even our most conservative limits greatly reduce the parameter space for n=1
models....Our other limits, and especially our least conservative limit.... make such theories highly implausible *


*string theory, same thing for loop theory.

I don't follow you here. String theory is perfectly lorentz covariant, so this paper does not apply to it. For loopy theories, it is a very different matter. The conclusion of this paper is that c(E) = c + a E^2 + ...but it doesn't exclude the possibility a = 0 etc (actually that is the most likely one).

Careful

 

[marcus]

and

http://people.roma2.infn.it/~glast/A191.Fermi.nature.GRB.pdf

...even our most conservative limits greatly reduce the parameter space for n=1
models....Our other limits, and especially our least conservative limit.... make such theories highly implausible *


*string theory, same thing for loop theory...

What "loop theory" do you mean? Apparently not the current standard LQG since:

http://arxiv.org/abs/1012.1739
Lorentz covariance of loop quantum gravity
Carlo Rovelli, Simone Speziale
6 pages, 1 figure
(Submitted on 8 Dec 2010)
"The kinematics of loop gravity can be given a manifestly Lorentz-covariant formulation: the conventional SU(2)-spin-network Hilbert space can be mapped to a space K of SL(2,C) functions, where Lorentz covariance is manifest. K can be described in terms of a certain subset of the 'projected' spin networks studied by Livine, Alexandrov and Dupuis. It is formed by SL(2,C) functions completely determined by their restriction on SU(2). These are square-integrable in the SU(2) scalar product, but not in the SL(2,C) one. Thus, SU(2)-spin-network states can be represented by Lorentz-covariant SL(2,C) functions, as two-component photons can be described in the Lorentz-covariant Gupta-Bleuler formalism. As shown by Wolfgang Wieland in a related paper, this manifestly Lorentz-covariant formulation can also be directly obtained from canonical quantization. We show that the spinfoam dynamics of loop quantum gravity is locally SL(2,C)-invariant in the bulk, and yields states that are preciseley in K on the boundary. This clarifies how the SL(2,C) spinfoam formalism yields an SU(2) theory on the boundary. These structures define a tidy Lorentz-covariant formalism for loop gravity."

Note this is a recent paper, December 2010. A lot of people have out-of-date information about LQG.

It was never clear that LQG violates Lorentz invariance---people tried unsuccessfully for several years to prove that it did. What is new about this paper is that it proves that it does not. By giving a manifestly covariant formulation.

 

[arivero]

I think to remember that one of the last improvements of Connes theory was to incorporate SU(2)xSU(2) as forefather of SU(2)xU(1). This is interesting because it goes as far as possible in the number of helicity states without susy.

Let me review, again, the count of helicity states:

- The old SM without massive neutrinos had 117 helicity states (90 from fermions, 27 from bosons).

- With massive neutrinos, the SM has 123 helicity states. Let's keep the massive neutrinos in the following:
- Asking gauge interactions to be massless, the SM has 120 helicity states.
- With a minimal Higgs, it has 124.
- With SU(2)xSU(2), but no higgs, it has 126.
- The SM With supersymmetry but no higgs, 126 helicity states plus partners.
- And the MSSM has 128 plus partners.

... and we could like to be able to put the graviton (2 helicity states) in the account.

Now, what about string theory? E8 has 248 states (yep, 120+128), and charged string theory in D=10 needs, besides the supergravity multiplet, 496 states, so the famous E8xE8 or SO(32) groups. Which seem to come from a "charged D=11 supergravity" called M-theory. If we forget about these charges, we still have the D=11 supergravity multiplet, with 128 helicity states (plus partners). And we know that the compactification of D=11 Sugra in the torus T7 or the sphere S7 produces another theory in the D=4 again with 128 helicity states (plus partners) but too many supersymmetries. S7 has as symmetry group SO(8), but it is remarkable that S7 is a fiber bundle with basis S4 and fiber S3, that S4 quotiented by complex conjugation is CP2, and that a fiber bundle with basis CP2 and fiber S3 has as symmetry group SU(3)xSU(2)xSU(2). So S7 is only a "discrete quotient" away from the Standard Model, but the only person in the mainstream aware of it seems to be Atiyah.

(Edit: are there relevant groups with irreps in 120, 123, 124, 126, 128, or even 130? Some role could be expected from SU(8), which has a 120, or from SO(16), whose 120 and 128 allow to decompose E8. Sometimes SU(8) has been considered as a hidden symmetry of the scalars produced in a compactification from D=11 to D=4. For 123, 124 or 130, I don't see any in the most usual tables; on the contrary, the other numbers are very typical)

 

[MTd2]

- The SM With supersymmetry but no higgs, 126 helicity states plus partners.
- And the MSSM has 128 plus partners.

What is the SM with supersymmetry? If MSSM has 128 helicity states, why is it called minimal supersymmetric, if there is another smaller?

 

[MTd2]

Now, what about string theory? E8 has 248 states (yep, 120+128), and charged string theory in D=10 needs, besides the supergravity multiplet, 496 states, so the famous E8xE8 or SO(32) groups. Which seem to come from a "charged D=11 supergravity" called M-theory. If we forget about these charges, we still have the D=11 supergravity multiplet, with 128 helicity states (plus partners). And we know that the compactification of D=11 Sugra in the torus T7 or the sphere S7 produces another theory in the D=4 again with 128 helicity states (plus partners) but too many supersymmetries. S7 has as symmetry group SO(8), but it is remarkable that S7 is a fiber bundle with basis S4 and fiber S3, that S4 quotiented by complex conjugation is CP2, and that a fiber bundle with basis CP2 and fiber S3 has as symmetry group SU(3)xSU(2)xSU(2). So S7 is only a "discrete quotient" away from the Standard Model, but the only person in the mainstream aware of it seems to be Atiyah.

What of instead of 11D Sugra, it were 11D pure gravity? Can you make it have 128 helicities for the graviton?

 

[arivero]

What is the SM with supersymmetry? If MSSM has 128 helicity states, why is it called minimal supersymmetric, if there is another smaller?

Without the higgs mechanism. You can can not add susy to a massive vector particle by itself. You must add a new scalar for each massive vector, doing four helicity states, which you can partner then to a pair of weyl fermions -making a Dirac fermion, in principle-.

The Minimal higgs mechanism for a SSM has a higgs with 8 states, three of them go to the zero of each vector, another three go to the scalars, and two of them are -I guess- the h and H bosons.

 

[arivero]

What of instead of 11D Sugra, it were 11D pure gravity? Can you make it have 128 helicities for the graviton?

No for the graviton. The 11D gravitino has 128 helicities, of spin 3/2 of course. The 11D graviton has 44, and then sugra forces the adition of a tensor field holding other 84 helicities.

 

[MTd2]

Just a crazy question then. So, a pure fermionic gravity would have all the needed helicities for SU(2)xSU(2), without Higgs, plus gravitons?

 

[marcus]

Don't want to interrupt the flow of discussion but I'd like to remind about MTd2's recent thread
called Connes GUT
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=455898

It got 17 posts so far and some informative Q&A contributions by Arivero and Tom.Stoer

The first post has among other things the following list of Connes particle theory predictions based on NCG, taken from a recent paper with Ali Chamseddine.

==quote Ali and Alain==
...We re-derive the leading order terms in the spectral action. The geometrical action yields unification of all fundamental interactions including gravity at very high energies. We make the following predictions:

(i) The number of fermions per family is 16.

(ii) The symmetry group is U(1)xSU(2)xSU(3).

(iii) There are quarks and leptons in the correct representations.

(iv) There is a doublet Higgs that breaks the electroweak symmetry to U(1).

(v) Top quark mass of 170-175 Gev.

(v) There is a right-handed neutrino with a see-saw mechanism. Moreover, the zeroth order spectral action obtained with a cut-off function is consistent with experimental data up to few percent.

We discuss a number of open issues. We prepare the ground for computing higher order corrections since the predicted mass of the Higgs field is quite sensitive to the higher order corrections. We speculate on the nature of the noncommutative space at Planckian energies and the possible role of the fundamental group for the problem of generations.
==endquote==

 

[arivero]

Just a crazy question then. So, a pure fermionic gravity would have all the needed helicities for SU(2)xSU(2), without Higgs, plus gravitons?

Er, no, because a "pure fermionic" should mean only the gravitino. And then only the fermions of the SM; you need the bosons too. Sorry that in the above discussion I have not separated between fermions and bosons. It is right to say that a SSM theory has 126+126 fermions plus bosons, while Connes use of SU(3)xSU(2)xSU(2) only has 96+31. Well, damm'it, I did the wrong count before :shy:, of course SU(3) has 16, SU(2) is 6 and SU(2)_EW is 9 (because of the masses), so the total is 31 and the grand total is 96+31=127. Put the graviton, and you are in 129. Conclussions: if you want SU(2)xSU(2), it is better to have it broken down to SU(2)xU(1). And, for 120 or 128 bosons or 120 or 128 fermions, susy is the recipe to follow.

My whole point is that I am pretty sure that Connes' theory has susy hidden somewhere.

 

[MTd2]

What`s the problem with the bosons? You can make them appear like phonons.

 

[arivero]

What`s the problem with the bosons? You can make them appear like phonons.

I have not idea how. Can you describe the mechanism (not references, please, just the basic facts and math)

 

[MTd2]

No references. I just had this idea while typing the post #12. With so many almost coincident numbers, it seems YOU are asking me to conclude that. And with so many emergent gravity things around, YOU just gave me the media for things to emerge, that is gravitino pure gravity in 11D.

There is nothing of the sort anywhere. I cannot give you any link or math right now, because it was past 1am when I typed that. I briefely looked for something and couldn't find anything.

Do you have any idea?

 

[Fra]

What could we turn to as an alternative physical theory of unification? Something to think speculatively about, instead of this growing disillusionment.

As always, my crazy vote is for further development of a combination of the following ideas

- inference perspective: ET Jaynes, Ariel Caticha, Kevin Knuth
- the idea of evolving law: Lee smolin, Roberto Unger

There unification of interactions ~ unification of inference models, as constrained by the complexityscaling -> 0.

But it seems that this must go hand in hand with a reconstruction of the physical counting procedure, and not just be described in terms of existing mathematics.

/Fredrik

 

[arivero]

No references. I just had this idea while typing the post #12. With so many almost coincident numbers, it seems YOU are asking me to conclude that. And with so many emergent gravity things around, YOU just gave me the media for things to emerge, that is gravitino pure gravity in 11D.

There is nothing of the sort anywhere. I cannot give you any link or math right now, because it was past 1am when I typed that. I briefely looked for something and couldn't find anything.

Do you have any idea?

No Of course you could say that my diquarks are phonons, via pair condensation phenomena etc, but I do not see how it fits in the whole picture.

In any case, I was not expecting you to conclude that some kind of phonon mechanism or pair condensation was at work; if you have come to it independently of my old remarks on diquarks, I am happy! But my point was, more, to point out that the real experimental data is very near of the predictions of the mathematics of super-theories. It is only that it is near in a way that does not coincide with the expectations of the guys doing such math.

 

[MTd2]

Your diquarks? Let me look for them:

I found this:

http://dftuz.unizar.es/~rivero/research/hierarchy.pdf

I never hear about those!

 

[arivero]

I never hear about those!

C'mon I feel that I am speaking of them constantly in PhysicsForums, so now I try to avoid to name them except when they seem to be implied directly (and phonons, via Cooper pairs, could be a case). I am kind of obsessed with them, and this obsession has the advantage of motivating me to deep in the literature of Kaluza Klein, Sugra, etc. I am sure that there is a lot of threads on them here in PF.

Amusingly, the preprint you found was written the same month that I heard Connes by last time. I had been obsessed with NCG for ten years and I tripped into the diquark thing during a holiday I took explicitly to hear of the new NCG model!

Now I think about these countings and NCG, I find a new argument for Connes construction: that the Higgs comes from the metric, and then it is a close kin of the graviton. The countings we have made above have the inconveniency that one has place for the higgs or the graviton, but no both. Perhaps NCG provides an explanation to this trouble.

 

[MTd2]

What if higgs is just the trace of the graviton?

 

[tom.stoer]

String Theory Fails Another Test, the “Supertest”

Neither micro black holes / large extra dimensions nor TeV scale supersymmetry are predictions of string theory. So the these LHC results (and all future LHC results) cannot rule out string theory; they can only rule out certain solutions of string theory.

[the measurement of the electric resistance of wood at room temperature does not rule out QED, it only rules out a particular "solution" of QED where wood is a superconductor at room temperature]

 

[arivero]

What if higgs is just the trace of the graviton?

That, stated in this way, it is just words, without any clue about what to do, how to substantiate, calculate, etc. Except if you are literaly meaning to take the trace of the metric?

 

[MTd2]

Yes, something like that! So, what now?

 

[arivero]

I don't know. Put more equations, and we will see. In Connes, the higgs comes from the metric. In Duff KK, some higgs come from a deformation of the metric.

 

[yoda jedi]

I don't follow you here. String theory is perfectly lorentz covariant, so this paper does not apply to it. For loopy theories, it is a very different matter. The conclusion of this paper is that c(E) = c + a E^2 + ...but it doesn't exclude the possibility a = 0 etc (actually that is the most likely one).

Careful

who is talking about lorentz covariant ?

read-read:

......A value this close to the Planck length means that quantum gravity models in which there's a linear relationship between photon energy and speed are "highly implausible." That leaves other quantum gravity options open, including those in which the the relationship is non-linear. Hopefully, theoreticians will be able to devise real-world tests for some of these....

string theory is LINEAR.

 

[crackjack]

What are the theories that have come closer to matching thermodynamic and statistical entropy of black holes and to solve the information paradox?
I know string theory has had some good results in former and has made serious progress in latter. How about others?

 

[bapowell]

Interesting discussion. It's amazing what irresponsible and sloppy science reporting can do!