UC Davis department admissions closed? (Anger enclosed)

[G01]

I'm sorry but I find all of this absolutely incredible.

With 20-20 hindsight, I think it's less incredible than it initially seems. The whole country has been going down this road for a while.

That's what happens when you have an extremely weak economy.

This is what happens with poor management. The problem with decades of politicians campaigning on promises of high services and low taxes is that such a system is unsustainable. High services are great, but the money for them needs to come from somewhere. To make a physics analogy: We've been trying to break a conservation law for a long time. Unfortunately, this just isn't possible. (Hence the crushing debt...)

The whole country will have to deal with this before it's over. California is just the start.Penguino: I hope it all works out for you. Hang in there and stay calm. Hopefully a good solution will present itself soon.

 

[twofish-quant]

This is what happens with poor management. The problem with decades of politicians campaigning on promises of high services and low taxes is that such a system is unsustainable. High services are great, but the money for them needs to come from somewhere.

It can come from a printing press. If you have unused capacity, you can and should cause that capacity to be used by printing money. Money is a mass hallucination, and if you have actual goods and services but no money, then you can just dump money from the skies.

To make a physics analogy: We've been trying to break a conservation law for a long time. Unfortunately, this just isn't possible. (Hence the crushing debt...)

Bad analogy. Money doesn't work like that. Money doesn't follow any conservation laws. It can be created and destroyed. Money *does* follow some other rules, but they aren't your standard physics rules. One of the rules of money is that it tends to flow uphill. People with money change the rules so that they make more money.

The whole country will have to deal with this before it's over. California is just the start.

And I think cutting back is 180 degrees the wrong way of doing it. Right now people aren't listening to me, but give it a few years. What I'm pretty sure that will happen is that people will make cuts thinking that it will improve things, but it will just make things worse. Fortunately, it takes a while for the boat to sink, and so there will be time to reverse the damage and start up the printing presses.

Hang in there and stay calm. Hopefully a good solution will present itself soon.

The solution seems pretty obvious to me. But I'm patient, and I'm less concerned about good things happening than about being right. If it turns out that we can get out of this mess by cuts, then that's fine, but I happen to believe that cuts will just make things worse.

It should be pointed out that China has decided to do 180 degrees the opposite of the US and has decided to deal with the economic crisis by spending massive amounts of money in science and technology. If things go the way that I think they will go, then in five years, it will be obvious that this is the right thing to do, and the US will do it.

 

[spartanaudio]

The whole country will have to deal with this before it's over. California is just the start.

yep. I just want to finish my degree before then :(

 

[Shackleford]

With 20-20 hindsight, I think it's less incredible than it initially seems. The whole country has been going down this road for a while.

This is what happens with poor management. The problem with decades of politicians campaigning on promises of high services and low taxes is that such a system is unsustainable. High services are great, but the money for them needs to come from somewhere. To make a physics analogy: We've been trying to break a conservation law for a long time. Unfortunately, this just isn't possible. (Hence the crushing debt...)

The whole country will have to deal with this before it's over. California is just the start.

Penguino: I hope it all works out for you. Hang in there and stay calm. Hopefully a good solution will present itself soon.

There is a budget shortfall because of the weak economy. This highlights the fact of bloated state and federal budgets. If the budget has to be cut, education is always a target because it typically consumes the most of state budgets. People who clamor and whine about cutting education spending when the budget has to be cut are being irrational and immature. The states are not cutting education funding completely. They're simply reducing the amount going towards education. This should force the state and local ISDs to trim the fat, become more efficient, and spend the money wisely. That's just the way it is. We should be asking how we get the economy moving again. You do not do that by raising taxes.

 

[ParticleGrl]

There is a budget shortfall because of the weak economy. This highlights the fact of bloated state and federal budgets. If the budget has to be cut, education is always a target because it typically consumes the most of state budgets. People who clamor and whine about cutting education spending when the budget has to be cut are being irrational and immature.

Its easier to destroy than to create- departments closed down may take much longer to rebuild as the economy begins to grow again and the budgets move to surplus.

We should be asking how we get the economy moving again. You do not do that by raising taxes.

And you don't do it with deep spending cuts either.

 

[flyingpig]

Sue them!

 

[Shackleford]

Its easier to destroy than to create- departments closed down may take much longer to rebuild as the economy begins to grow again and the budgets move to surplus.
And you don't do it with deep spending cuts either.

Who says the departments need to open back up in the first? Essential functions of government are the most important things we need to fund. Privileges of our society come next. Sometimes we have more money sometimes we have less to spend on such things.

You do if you don't have the funds. Spending money you don't have is generally a bad idea. There is nothing wrong with spending cuts. Letting us keep more of our own money to invest or spend it as we see fit is always a good idea.

 

[lurky]

With 20-20 hindsight, I think it's less incredible than it initially seems. The whole country has been going down this road for a while.

Actually, the reason why it strikes me as so bizarre is because, being from Canada, I've been through this already. For us, it happened in the 90s. And of course, before us, it happened to someone else, and to someone else before them, and so on. So that's why I find it incredible - i.e. that the cycle just continues.

 

[twofish-quant]

There is a budget shortfall because of the weak economy. This highlights the fact of bloated state and federal budgets.

I don't think that state and federal governments are spending enough on infrastructure and education, and I'm in favor of big government funded by increasing taxes on people like me that make insane amounts of money gaming the system.

But no need to argue the point. Right now you've won the argument, and people are doing to do things your way. All I ask is that you remember what I'm saying now in a few years when it becomes obvious that cutting, cutting, cutting doesn't work, and you need some new ideas.

The states are not cutting education funding completely. They're simply reducing the amount going towards education. This should force the state and local ISDs to trim the fat, become more efficient, and spend the money wisely.

There's no more fat left. Ultimately what you are doing if you keep cutting education is that you are just encouraging people not to become teachers but rather to become investment bankers. This is going to kill you because, less education means a weaker economy which means less education which means a weaker economy.

Personally, I think that the US has gone way, way too far in bashing government, and if you just bash government, you'll end up with everyone going into finance, which I don't think is healthy for the nation.

That's just the way it is. We should be asking how we get the economy moving again. You do not do that by raising taxes.

Yes you do, provided you focus the taxes on people like me that probably make a lot more money than we should. If you increase my taxes by 5%, I'm not going to notice.

 

[twofish-quant]

Who says the departments need to open back up in the first? Essential functions of government are the most important things we need to fund.

Education is an essential function of government.

Spending money you don't have is generally a bad idea.

It's really good idea if you are investing in useful things that will pay off in the future. In any case, money is a social illusion. One reason I find Wall Street fascinating is that I spend a good part of my day thinking about "what is money?"

There is nothing wrong with spending cuts. Letting us keep more of our own money to invest or spend it as we see fit is always a good idea.

If you make less than $250,000, than that's a good idea. People that make less than that don't need their taxes raised, and it's not going to raise that much more money anyway. People that make $250,000+ need their taxes increased, and that will be enough to pay for things.

 

[Ashuron]

this reminds me how US govt spend their money..

http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=1305

 

[Vanadium 50]

People that make $250,000+ need their taxes increased, and that will be enough to pay for things.

Actually, it's not. The Federal deficit is $1.3T. The total income tax collected is $900B. 59% is paid by people making $160k a year or more. To close the gap requires their taxes to go up by a factor of 3.45, making the highest bracket 120%.

Moving the $160K to $250K only makes it worse.

At the risk of channeling Margaret Thatcher, we've run out of other people's money.

This is also why universities are in such dire circumstances. For years state flagship universities have been trying to increase their quality at the same time that the budget provided them by the states are decreasing. They can make up some of the difference with tuition increases, but that can also only go so far. Now that the music has stopped, they are in trouble.

I compared a recent bulletin for a Big Ten school with one from 20 years ago, and the number of majors has gone up by 20-25%. That means the number of departments has gone up by a similar factor, and that means that personnel costs also go up. This money has to come from somewhere.

 

[AlephZero]

Actually, it's not. The Federal deficit is $1.3T. The total income tax collected is $900B. 59% is paid by people making $160k a year or more. To close the gap requires their taxes to go up by a factor of 3.45, making the highest bracket 120%.

You could easily fix that problem by raising the high earner's salaries by x3.45. and leaving the tax rate the same. As somebody said, the money can come from a printing press, and it tends to flow uphill...

 

[Pengwuino]

I'm going to open up another thread and I'd like you all to please move this discussion into this thread as I feel we are going a bit off topic. I really want to keep this discussion going though!

So can we move to this?

I have opened up a new thread: https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=3229443

 

[jtbell]

And with that, I'm closing this thread, at least provisionally.