Is Residential Solar Power a No-Cost Solution for Homeowners?

In summary, the conversation revolved around a potential homeowner's deal with SunRun, Home Depot, and bpsolar for a solar installation on their roof. The deal would involve no out-of-pocket expenses for the homeowner, who would instead pay for the power at a discounted rate for 20 years. Concerns were raised about the potential for additional costs, such as roof modifications or replacements, and the impact on insurance policies. It was also noted that SREC rates have significantly decreased, potentially affecting the financial benefits of the deal. The conversation concluded with recommendations to thoroughly review the contract and consider potential ethical and insurance concerns before making a decision.
  • #1
Naty1
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I am having my home evaluated by a SunRun, Home Depot and bpsolar consortium. There was a booth in a Home Depot store in NJ.

The "deal in brief": I supply the roof area for solar and they get permits, build,install, maintain and pay for the entire solar system. Then they sell me power under a 20 year contract at a discount to PSE&G power. Unless I have to modify my roof or replace shingles, there is no out of pocket expenditure for me.

Anybody done this with any companies?? Any experience with this particular offering??

Suggestions or recommendations?

(Apparently commercial installations get accelerated depreciation allowances not available to homeowners.)
 
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  • #2
The Home Depot sales rep told me that many townships consider the addition of solar roof panels as equivalent to a second layer of shingles...and many only permit two layers. So if there are already two layers of shingles, they would have to be removed and a new single layer installed before the solar installation. That is at the homeowners cost.

I will post what I learn here during the evaluation and engineering inspection process. Obviously I'm not committed until I see the contract and financial numbers.

Are solar installations included in tax assessments??
 
  • #3
The Home Depot Rep gave me two financial statistics, :
(1) PSE&G electric rates have been increasing about 6% annually,
(2) SREC rates have dropped from around $500 or $600 dollars to about $150 greatly extending the payback period of owner installed systems

FACTCHECK:
From my Electric bills from PSE&G:
August 2011 18.5 cents per KWH
August 2010 18.3 cents
August 2009 18.9 cents
August2008 18.8 cents
August 2007 17.0 cents
August 2006 15.2 cents

so roughly 18.5/15.2 is about a 21.7% increase over 5 years...closer to 4% than the 6% he quoted. No increase last three years!

As to the SREC rates:
This site
http://srectrade.com/srec_prices.php

shows NJ rates in the $600 dollar range dropping dramatically ...to $167? Can there be that many solar installations as to cut rates by 2/3? This confirms what the Home Depot rep told me.

For those interested in first hand information Home Depot has this website: www.homedepot.com/sunrun...have[/URL] to check it out myself.
 
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  • #4
Will you have an option to purchase the equipment at the end of the 20 year agreement - sounds like a lease arrangement?
 
  • #5
Naty1 said:
...to $167? Can there be that many solar installations as to cut rates by 2/3?
Yes. The old rate was by far the highest in the country. If solar made sense anywhere, then it made sense in NJ.
 
  • #6
The Home Depot link didn't work for me.



from the SREC page, http://srectrade.com/background.php
"3. Penalty for Non-Compliance: Finally, in order to have a robust SREC market, your state must implement some sort of fine or penalty for non-compliance. This is commonly known as a solar alternative compliance payment (SACP). The SACP is what drives the values of SRECs above any other type of REC. Without the SACP, it is difficult to incentivize buyers to pay prices that promote solar growth."

So gov't is forcing everyday citizens to to subsidize this through their utility bill.
It reeks of Al Gore and goes against my principles.
Thank goodness the rate dropped.

I hope it works for you but read the fine print.
Particularly as to who bears cost of maintenance,
and what rights of access to your property they require.

old jim
 
  • #7
So gov't is forcing everyday citizens to to subsidize this through their utility bill.
It reeks of Al Gore and goes against my principles.
Thank goodness the rate dropped.

I agree on all points.
I did not want to bring up ethical/political issues in an electrical engineering discussion forum but I posted similar "subsidy" comments just now in the other big solar thread..."Should I invest in Solar now"...which is 13 pages long at the moment.

I just might reject any installation on ethical grounds myself but I want to know the current technology and economics anyway.

Right now, if SREC rates have dropped dramatically, why would any company continue to invest in solar...and why offer me a discount from regular rates?? I'll post what I find.
 
  • #9
jim hardy said:
I hope it works for you but read the fine print.
Particularly as to who bears cost of maintenance,
and what rights of access to your property they require.

From an insurance perspective, I see a problem with the roof. Even if the project requires a new 20+ year roof be installed prior to installation, the equipment could cause the roof to leak after years of wind resistance. The homeowners policy would more than likely not cover damages and would shift the burden onto the equipment owner.
 
  • #10
I see a problem with the roof. Even if the project requires a new 20+ year roof be installed prior to installation, the equipment could cause the roof to leak after years of wind resistance.

That does seem like a possibility. I'll have to look at the installation height off the roof and see what load is estimated for high winds and what wind speeds the panels withstand. If it's one foot height, I would not do it; if a few inches, additional wind resistance should be minimal. You've made me think contacting my insurance company before any decision is a good idea.

I've been told Home Deport warranties against leaks for ten years, but again I have to see the actual contract fine print. I also plan to ask the roof contractor if they have heard of problems with solar panel fastenings causing leaks. I'd be more worried about

The 25 and 30 year caulks, not the traditional black creosote smelling roof caulks, stay pliable in even freezing weather and should not be a problem if utilized.
 
  • #11
""? ""

indeed http://www.njcleanenergy.com/renewab...g/srec-pricing doesn't show a price decrease
but this link you posted earlier http://srectrade.com/srec_prices.php
at least predicts one - look at NJ 2011-2012 line it goes down pretty drastically
i got there by clicking "historical pricing" on the SRECTRADE prices page

i echo your ?
----------------------------------------

""I did not want to bring up ethical/political issues in an electrical engineering discussion forum... ""
believe me i hesitated...
thanks for the other forum i'll check it out

my thinking is : looks like the middleman's cut is around 5% from those pages
and presumably he is rewarded by gov't for pushing green power via tax incentives
or maybe even direct DOE grants to get the stuff built.
What does he provide me in exchange? A slight discount on my electricity?
And now i must write one check to my utility for their meter and another to SREC for my kilowatts?

I'd study that deal before signing up.
Which it sounds like you are doing.

I'm very interested in how this works out.

I am almost ready to build myself a flat panel solar water heater
because heating water is majority of my electrical consumption
and that i can do with very simple, inexpensive equipment
and no contracts or monthly fees or paperwork.
Wish i'd done it when copper was $2 a pound - i thought that was too high then.

The science here is simple - if I'm to have a panel up there it's going to heat water directly from sunlight not indirectly via electricity made with <10% efficient solar cells and sold back to me.

old jim
 
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  • #12
I e-mailed my August electric rates to he Home Depot Sales rep and he replied as follows:

"yes, I did say they had gone up 5-6% annually (on average). Here is the link to the US Government site I used to quote that
http://www.eia.gov/cneaf/electricity/st_profiles/new_jersey.html

in table 8 you will see it has gone up more. Again, it is just an average for the state for the years 2005 thru 2009. I will be back to you later today with some additional information. Bill"

I have a new computer which will not open this data so I have not seen it...but I really don't care all that much what it says; I care what is actually in my bill.

I also e-mailed the local roofers who did my roof about 15 years ago for a remove and reshingle estimate in preparation for solar panels. Hurricane Irene just passed NJ and I imagine it will be a while before they come to inspect.
 
  • #13
9/10/11 update,
Met with the Home Depot Rep (HDR) and got preliminary figures: He estimated my annual electric usage at 10,700 KWH using my own electric bills. I am proceeding with them for further analysis at no obligation.

Remember SunRun pays for and installs , owns, operates and maintains the solar system on my roof. My out of pocket costs for the system is $0.

The initial electric rate I would pay from SunRun (solar) is 12.3 cents/kwh versus the current utility rate of 18.5 cents, a 33% discount. The rate would increase 2.9% annually. I asked if there was any contractual protection against that annual increase exceeding PSE&G rates...he will check.

He will provide me another option at my request: one in which SunRun sells me electricity at the same 33% discount from PSE&G rates, whatever they may be, for the entire 20 years. I like that concept but will have to see what they offer... It elimnates SREC market and solar legislative risk.

He estimated that instead of my first year PSE&G bill of about $1,987, I would pay SunRun about $1154 and PSE&G $251, for a first year saving of $582. He gave me a 20 year projection which I'm not going to bother posting in detail: supposedly savings increase each year and total about $33,000 over 20 years

HDR said his system would provide about 9,400 kwh of my total 10,700 kwh annual usage. I told him that sounded impossible since he can only provide power from maybe 9AM to 5PM (as an example)...What about the rest of the day?? We could not resolve that: so I told him I'd discuss this with the engineer who comes to do the actual site and engineering analysis. [I don't think my power from roughly 5PM all night to 9AM (when solar production is at a minimum] would be covered by $251 payment to PSE&G...especially when some rain and snow days may produce insufficient power for my daytime usage. ]
.

An option is that if I prepay $25,323 SunRun will provide power without any annual increase in rate...that is, at 12.3 cents per KWH for 20 years. That produces a 20 years savings of almost $64,000; that's an additional $31,000 saving over 20 years relative to their sole ownership on my roof ...not a very interesting saving.

There are several purchase options which I'm not going to describe since I don't want the upfront costs. One involves them keeping the SREC ownership which could be interesting who doubt future government support.

I asked: What happens if SunRun goes bankrupt, and, for example, a hurricane damages the system making it inoperable. He will check as I said I wanted something to cover situations like that in the contract.

The HDR agreed solar is uneconomical without government incentives. HDR agreed to provide me some residential; references in the area..people who have systems operating...one is about five years old.

Note: I talked with my city tax assessor: Unless the company owning the solar system pays me rent, which they do NOT, there is no tax assessment...so no extra property taxes.
 
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  • #14
I understand that when commercial power is lost, most solar installations do not provide any
solar power to the home.

Is this correct and why??
Can't they install a switch to disconnect the home from the grid? Such a switch IS available\and required when using an emergency generator at home.
 
  • #15
Naty1 said:
HDR said his system would provide about 9,400 kwh of my total 10,700 kwh annual usage. I told him that sounded impossible since he can only provide power from maybe 9AM to 5PM (as an example)...What about the rest of the day??
By that statement the vendor likely means that during the middle of the day your solar array would produce several times more power than you use on average. The vendor either intends to push that excess power out to the grid (for a price, perhaps via SRECs) and draw from the grid at other times, or store the midday power in battery storage system.
 
  • #16
By that statement the vendor likely means that during the middle of the day your solar array would produce several times more power than you use on average. The vendor either intends to push that excess power out to the grid (for a price, perhaps via SRECs) and draw from the grid at other times, or store the midday power in battery storage system.

I tried maybe three questions to draw that out...clearly the guy doesn't understand technical details... I asked him exactly that...There was insufficient electrical data (which most people would not even understand) in his presentation to make a determination. He told me the 9,400 annual kwh was what I would be using...so as noted above, I'll have to save that issue for the engineer's site evaluation visit.
 
  • #17
jim hardy:
The science here is simple - if I'm to have a panel up there it's going to heat water directly from sunlight not indirectly via electricity made with <10% efficient solar cells and sold back to me.

That may be the best solution for water heating...I don't know. But I do know one thing: you have not made a case either way. Remember, I am not paying for the solar system, so if you lay out,say, $10,000 bucks and get a more "efficient" water heating system, it may take a looooong time to recover your investment. That should be your criteria.

Your other comment:
What does he provide me in exchange? A slight discount on my electricity?
And now i must write one check to my utility for their meter and another to SREC for my kilowatts?

appears skeptical, which is ok, but unsubstantiated. Those are among the very issues I am investigating and sharing in this discussion.

I have not made up my mind either way yet, but so far I am still interested. For me the key issue may be first cost of removing and replacing roof shingles in order to save (preliminary saving estimate) about $1,200 over two years, maybe $1,800 over three.

Note: I tallied up the annual savings provided in the HDR analysis and they total the $33,153 I posted earlier which means the analysis given me did NOT discount cash flows. Since the biggest saving are out in the future [based on their PSE&G rate increase assumptions] this grossly overstates present values. But since I am outlaying minimal money up front, I don't care all the much.
 
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  • #18
I was checking some Home Depot solar equipment to get a feel for costs and power of solar generation and came across this, an "1800 watt" solar package for $1499:

http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical-Alternative-Energy-Solutions-Solar-Power/h_d1/N-5yc1vZbm18/R-202548447/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

Thats less than a dollar a watt! installed cost and is impossible.

So reading the specs shows it produces 12 amps at 12 volts...and the "140" watt spec seems right for a panel 27" x 58"...

So what could the headline "1800 watts" really be? I figured it's really daily watt hours...but that would require the full 140 watts power for 1800/140 or 12.9 hours which seems wildy optimistic...Any other insights??

For some fun, look at the comments submitted at the above website about this product!
 
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  • #19
Naty1 said:
I was checking some Home Depot solar equipment to get a feel for costs and power of solar generation and came across this, an "1800 watt" solar package for $1499:

http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical-Alternative-Energy-Solutions-Solar-Power/h_d1/N-5yc1vZbm18/R-202548447/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

Thats less than a dollar a watt! installed cost and is impossible.

So reading the specs shows it produces 12 amps at 12 volts...and the "140" watt spec seems right for a panel 27" x 58"...

So what could the headline "1800 watts" really be? I figured it's really daily watt hours...but that would require the full 140 watts power for 1800/140 or 12.9 hours which seems wildy optimistic...Any other insights??
...
Though the title of the ad is misleading, the "1800W" rating is clearly defined in the text: it is the power rating for the DC to AC inverter, charge controller, and auto transfer switch electronics. That's a decent price at $1500. Large scale inverters (only) are about $0.75/Watt. One 140W polySi photovoltaic panel is included, the only 'solar' aspect to the package. If someone could scrounge ten 180W panels+mounting somewhere and handle the installation (big if), this Home Depot package is all that's required to run a residential system.
 
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  • #20
Oh yea, that IS clearly stated in the DESCRIPTION...thanks...

What an unusual combination for the typical consumer...A single 140 watt solar panel, no battery, and a huge inverter relative to the single solar panel provided.

Another 9 panels from Home Depot (185 watts at $399 each) and you can actually produce about 1800 watts. Thats about $1,500 plus $3,600 or $5,100/1800 watts or about $2.83 material first cost.

How does a solar power system like this interface with a home electrical panel?? It's can't be allowed to provide power to the grid during a power failure because of the danger to repairmen.
 
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  • #21
This is a bit off-topic, but I've been trying to find an integrated system combining solar with a small (rooftop or pole mount) vertical axis wind turbine. My thought is that overcast days are sometimes accompanied by increased wind. Someone sent me a proposal for an integrated solar system a few years ago that combined with a device that was propelled by (fresh) water flow. Unfortunately, I misplaced the information.
 
  • #22
Naty1 said:
How does a solar power system like this interface with a home electrical panel?? It's can't be allowed to provide power to the grid during a power failure because of the danger to repairmen.
Good question. Note in you link that the inverter has a internal transfer switch that switches to battery power when normal grid power is interrupted. The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfer_switch" is automatic and removes any power (solar-cells/battery or generator) from the grid when it is interrupted. Then when grid power returns, it reconnects to the grid. But making a system to supply power back to the grid requires additional equipment to do synchronization. For example if you have a generator (or inverter), you need to match grid voltage, frequency, and phase before connecting the generator (or inverter) to the grid.
 
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  • #23
Naty1 said:
How does a solar power system like this interface with a home electrical panel?? It's can't be allowed to provide power to the grid during a power failure because of the danger to repairmen.
That's the role of the transfer switch, common electric equipment outside of the solar industry, use with residential generators, etc.
 
  • #24
Naty1 said:
Oh yea, that IS clearly stated in the DESCRIPTION...thanks...

What an unusual combination for the typical consumer...A single 140 watt solar panel, no battery, and a huge inverter relative to the single solar panel provided.

Another 9 panels from Home Depot (185 watts at $399 each) and you can actually produce about 1800 watts. Thats about $1,500 plus $3,600 or $5,100/1800 watts or about $2.83 material first cost.
Plus ~$1500-2000 installation by an electrician. While you might take a crack installing a stand alone solar system that never switches with the grid, you should not install a grid connected transfer system yourself.
 
  • #25
Naty1 said:
jim hardy:


That may be the best solution for water heating...I don't know. But I do know one thing: you have not made a case either way. Remember, I am not paying for the solar system, so if you lay out,say, $10,000 bucks and get a more "efficient" water heating system, it may take a looooong time to recover your investment. That should be your criteria.

Your other comment:

appears skeptical, which is ok, but unsubstantiated. Those are among the very issues I am investigating and sharing in this discussion.

I have not made up my mind either way yet, but so far I am still interested. For me the key issue may be first cost of removing and replacing roof shingles in order to save (preliminary saving estimate) about $1,200 over two years, maybe $1,800 over three.

Note: I tallied up the annual savings provided in the HDR analysis and they total the $33,153 I posted earlier which means the analysis given me did NOT discount cash flows. Since the biggest saving are out in the future [based on their PSE&G rate increase assumptions] this grossly overstates present values. But since I am outlaying minimal money up front, I don't care all the much.

Mea Culpa, i am skeptical.

But from what you've posted it looks like a pretty good deal for the consumer.
The big corporation behind it surely gets green credit tax incentives that you would not.

just make sure when the thing breaks down or needs new panels it's their problem.

I am astonished at that Home Depot link. The hardware is getting cheaper.


I'm thinking the water heater should be do-able for $1800 DIY
about 600 for sheet copper
same for tube and fittings
and another 600 for a tank and structure to support it.

Thanks for your thorough investigation and reportage !

old jim
 
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  • #26
dlgoff:
But making a system to supply power back to the grid requires additional equipment to do synchronization.

ok! That's the piece I wanted to confirm...so far I have seen not mention of such synchronization in various literature.

Regarding manual transfer switching of emergency local power: My neighbor, a retired electrician whom I supplied generator power during Hurricane Irene recently, introduced me to the INTERLOCK KIT:

www.interlockkit.com

For most electrial circuit breaker panels, instead of adding a separate electrical box and interlock switch (One I saw at Home Depot was $275 with a few circuit braker spaces included, but there are less expensive styles) you simply add the mechanical slide device to your existing panel. Different devices for each style electrical panel box. It enables only one main breaker at a time (either commercial or emergency power) preventing to the other from being turned on. They are ridiculously expensive (my opinion): my two pieces ( maybe 4" x 4" or so) of stainless steel slide: $160!

Much less expensive to install than a separate transfer switch, but you need two spare breaker slots...or to buy breakers than squeeze two circuits into one slot...my neighbor gave me a few.

All this requires local electrical inspection, but anybody can do it if they know what is required.
 
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  • #27
Jim Hardy

The big corporation behind it surely gets green credit tax incentives that you would not.

yes: I'm not sure what all they get but the HDR told me accelerated depreciation was a big incentive for them.
 
  • #28
9/21/2011
Seems like Home Depot Rep (HDR) is either busy or slow...

I received some information today from the HDR:

(1) I am able to purchase power, if I so choose, from an alternative supplier to PSE&G. So for the portion of power supplied to me by PSE&G, I am still able to select an alternative supplier if I wish.
(2) I received an e-mail from the HDR with a list of references of homeowners who have the solar power system already installed and operating. I'll check them out and report their feedback here.

(3) The HDR also sent me a reference with photos of solar power installations...I'll check them out and post whatever I can here.
 
  • #29
I'm ending my investigation into this zero cost solar. My wife will not entertain a 20 year
contract to put stuff on our roof!
 
  • #30
Anyone heard of Strizki? His name does not appear yet in a PF search. He's a NJ resident and engineer that truly used solar to get off the grid 24/7 and through the winter, by producing H2 with excess power and then using the H2 w/ fuel cell when needed.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=hydrogen-house

System basics:
  • PV panels. 56 panels on the work shed behind the house, I estimate 10KWpeak.
  • Batteries. 100 deep cycle batteries
  • H2 Storage tanks. 10 tanks, 19,000 ft^3 total @200 PSI
  • Electrolyzer. Proton Energy Systems. $78K.
  • Fuel cell. Plug Power 6KW, used in telecom system backup. Converts H2 to electricity
  • Geothermal heat pump system
  • Cost: $500K, $100K out of pocket. Strizki estimates he could do it now for $90k.

[PLAIN]http://www.scientificamerican.com/media/gallery/9326FCB9-9CEC-CF0C-084B9314D1DE3F3A_4.jpg

[PLAIN]http://www.scientificamerican.com/media/gallery/9326FCB9-9CEC-CF0C-084B9314D1DE3F3A_5.jpg

And of course Strizki has an H2 fuel cell powered 104HP car he converted for kicks which held the range record of 401 miles for some time. Doesn't everyone?
 
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FAQ: Is Residential Solar Power a No-Cost Solution for Homeowners?

Is residential solar power really free for homeowners?

No, residential solar power is not completely free. While the sun's energy is free, the equipment and installation costs associated with setting up a solar power system can be expensive. However, homeowners can save money in the long run by generating their own electricity and potentially reducing their monthly utility bills.

How does residential solar power work?

Residential solar power works by converting sunlight into electricity through the use of solar panels. These panels are made up of photovoltaic cells that absorb the sun's energy and convert it into direct current (DC) electricity. This electricity is then converted into alternating current (AC) electricity through an inverter and can be used to power homes.

What are the benefits of using residential solar power?

There are several benefits to using residential solar power, including potential cost savings on electricity bills, reduced carbon footprint, and increased energy independence. Solar power is also a renewable energy source, meaning it does not deplete natural resources and can be used for a long time.

Are there any drawbacks to using residential solar power?

One potential drawback of using residential solar power is the upfront cost of purchasing and installing the equipment. It can also be dependent on weather conditions and may not produce as much electricity on cloudy days. Additionally, some homeowners may not have enough space on their property for a sufficient number of solar panels.

Is it worth it to invest in residential solar power?

The answer to this question depends on individual circumstances. For some homeowners, investing in residential solar power may make financial sense in the long run. However, it is important to carefully consider the upfront costs, potential savings, and other factors before making a decision. Consulting with a professional and researching available incentives and financing options can also help determine if it is a worthwhile investment.

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