Smurf's Views on State Welfare Support

[Smurf]

Out of interest Smurf I have a few questions. I'd like to know your opinions on the following. Do you support;
a) the idea of having a free national health service?
b) free / subsidised education?
c) welfare support for the unemployed?
d) welfare support for the sick and old?
e) public transport?

As long as we have a state, yes. The state can not be 'phased out' it must be overthrown. So until we do that it mine as well be taking care of people.

P.S. And the more inefficient it is (if you believe that) the quicker the state will be overthrown.

The best argument is that ther has not ever been a period in history when Anarchy ruled anywhere on earth.
Tell you what ... you point out all the successful incidents or how you forsee it happening.
I'll sit over here and get ready to poke holes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Past_and_present_anarchist_communities

My favourites are http://www.christiania.org/" .

 

[The Smoking Man]

As long as we have a state, yes. The state can not be 'phased out' it must be overthrown. So until we do that it mine as well be taking care of people.
P.S. And the more inefficient it is (if you believe that) the quicker the state will be overthrown.

Surely you jest ... China?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Past_and_present_anarchist_communities
My favourites are http://www.christiania.org/" .

M'Kay ... remember where I am and the fact that of the three sites you posted I could view Zapatismo.

If you are trying to make a point ... you can't do it that way.

 

[Smurf]

If you are trying to make a point ... you can't do it that way.

A point? My point was to: "point out all the successful incidents or how forsee it happening".

I'm waiting for you to poke holes in it. You're not going to do that too well if you're too lazy to look up the basics about christiania and zapatismo (or anything else on that list). It's not like they try and keep themselves secret.

 

[The Smoking Man]

A point? My point was to: "point out all the successful incidents or how forsee it happening".
I'm waiting for you to poke holes in it. You're not going to do that too well if you're too lazy to look up the basics about christiania and zapatismo (or anything else on that list). It's not like they try and keep themselves secret.

Actually, what I am stating to you is that I am located in China and the sites are blocked except for the one.

One thing I can point out to you from the site I went to is that when you have people known as Comandanta, Subcomandante and has 'deligates', they certainly seem to have set up a revolutionary government with a heirarchy.

So how is this anarchy?

Are you saying a paramilitary, revolutionary, organization that failed in their intent and now survives in the wilderness smoking Pipes through balaclavas (ski masks) is in some way less reliant upon government when they clearly HAVE an internal structure that is even more imposing than the one they oppose.

Had they been successful and gained popular support, what would have been the outcome?

I notice the reference to Pancho Villa too.

So are you saying 'anarchy' is the result of a failed coup by communists?

So, the people comprising the NPA in the Philippines are really Anarchists and not people attempting to impost a military coup?

My mistake.

 

[The Smoking Man]

PS. And a good portion of the links on the page are dead by the way.

So 'No' I am not lazy.

Your consideration of my position and my enthuziasm for debate is misguided.

 

[Smurf]

Wikipedia is censored in China? My god, you poor people...

 

[The Smoking Man]

Wikipedia is censored in China? My god, you poor people...

Not all of it.

When they upgraded the filters, they gave it the ability to filter at a finer level than the base URL.

 

[Smurf]

Sophisticated censorship. Must be difficult for them to keep track of all the websites they've blocked.

Can you read this?
http://www.chiapaslink.ukgateway.net/ch1.html

 

[The Smoking Man]

Sophisticated censorship. Must be difficult for them to keep track of all the websites they've blocked.

No, noe they can block on the basis of keywords.

Can you read this?
http://www.chiapaslink.ukgateway.net/ch1.html

Okay ... so you pointed out that Chiapas had problems like many places in the world.

So did The Philippines and they revolted in 1986 forcing Marcos to resign.

Now they have had a stream of 'presidents' over half of whom have been implicated in a variety of scandles and they have even allowed Imelda back in as a government representative.

Now, can you tell me what this has to do with anarchy?

Definition:

an·ar·chy (nr-k) KEY

NOUN:
pl. an·ar·chies

1. Absence of any form of political authority.
2. Political disorder and confusion.
3. Absence of any cohesive principle, such as a common standard or purpose.

ETYMOLOGY:
New Latin anarchia, from Greek anarkhi, from anarkhos, without a ruler : an-, without ; see a- 1 + arkhos, ruler ; see -arch

 

[coffee na lang dear]

As long as we have a state, yes. The state can not be 'phased out' it must be overthrown. So until we do that it mine as well be taking care of people.
P.S. And the more inefficient it is (if you believe that) the quicker the state will be overthrown.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Past_and_present_anarchist_communities
My favourites are http://www.christiania.org/" .

Anarchy is a state of non-governance and lawlessness. What was happenning in Christiania and zapatismo are called consensus democracy therefore far from what anarchy means.

We Filipinos called what happened in 1986 as 'revolution' in transition to good governance from a 'not so good' government but it is never anarchy since laws were still imposed during those times.

 

[alexandra]

Just to clarify what we're talking about, I thought I'd contribute a brief definition of 'anarchism' as a political theory/belief [extract reproduced from the 'Oxford Concise Dictionary of Politics' by McLean, I. (1996)]:

The view that society can and should be organized without a coercive state. <snip> This specialized usage of the word differs markedly from common usage, which takes anarchism as a synonym for moral and political disorder. This pejorative usage is as old as the Greek origins of the word. <snip> There is no single positive anarchist doctrine, and apart from their rejection of the state, anarchist thinkers differ fundamentally, supporting a range of proposals from the most extreme individualism to complete collectivism.

While supporters of the state see it as necessary to solve problems of security and order... anarchists reverse the argument, and see such problems as a direct consequence of its existence whatever form it may take.

 

[Smurf]

Like Alexandra pointed out, Anarchism as a political theory is based around 2 principles

1. The absence of a state structure.
and
2. The absence of other destructive hierarchies.

Everything else varies from anarchist to anarchist, but any theory which involves these two principles is, at least in part, anarchist. And any theory which does not involve these two principles is not anarchist (such as the cop-out Anarcho-Capitalism or, even better, Anarcho-Fascism)

So..

Anarchy is a state of non-governance and lawlessness.

This is wrong since Anarchism is the absense of a "state" (joking! I know meant the other kind of state)

 

[The Smoking Man]

So what you are saying then is that the brief 5 minutes before the Comandante actually assumes office is Anarchy.

Prior to that, they are revolutionary fighters/ Terrorists (by the State Definition).

And after that, they are a coup?

 

[Smurf]

There is no 'office'.

Commandante and Subcommandante or mere words. Marcos has no (in the way you are perceiving it) power, he is a spokesperson. Esther too.

And they are not a coup, they are not trying to overthrow the mexican government.

And I'm sure they've always been 'terrorists' by the state's definition.

 

[The Smoking Man]

There is no 'office'.
Commandante and Subcommandante or mere words. Marcos has no (in the way you are perceiving it) power, he is a spokesperson. Esther too.
And they are not a coup, they are not trying to overthrow the mexican government.
And I'm sure they've always been 'terrorists' by the state's definition.

So what you are describing are 'terrorists' who threaten a government into compliance and are unreachable because they can remain under cover?

Like Iraq?

 

[The Smoking Man]

Oh, and the 'mere words' you talk about are designations of military rank.

Commander ... one who gives commands.

You know ... Klink said, "Hogan!"

And Schultz said, "I know NOTHING!"

Commandant.

 

[Smurf]

Comandanta doesn't mean commander actually. And I have no idea what the translation of subcomandante is, I can only seem to find it in relation to the zapatistas. It's possible they made it up.

Seriously, stop making assumptions.

Edit: Better yet, stop trying to villanize a group that's trying to fight back (and doing good) against a clearly oppressive government.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Comandanta doesn't mean commander actually. And I have no idea what the translation of subcomandante is, I can only seem to find it in relation to the zapatistas. It's possible they made it up.
Seriously, stop making assumptions.
Edit: Better yet, stop trying to villanize a group that's trying to fight back (and doing good) against a clearly oppressive government.

Dude, it's the spanish feminine form of Commander.

Who's making assumptions?

You're the one posting the links. I'm reading them and coming back here and quoting them.

I don't know ... whenever I see a bunch of people dressed in cammo with bandoleers, balaclavas and they refer to one as commander and another as sub commander, I see a military unit of the revolutionary type.

What I am trying to figure out is why you assume this is 'anarchy'.

So, the American revolutionaries were 'anarchists' when they hosted the 'boston tea party'?

The Russians when they 'offed' the Tsar and Tsarina?

China over the Emperor?

The list goes on ... now what makes what they are doing any different from the above list and any people the world over than the fact they have not been successful enough to topple the incumbent government due to lack of skill funds and backing?

Just tell me why they are unique and what makes them anarchists, please.

Try using your own words because the sites don't have your conviction that they are actually anarchists.

 

[coffee na lang dear]

This is wrong since Anarchism is the absense of a "state" (joking! I know meant the other kind of state)

i know you'll figure it out

 

[Smurf]

Dude, it's the spanish feminine form of Commander.

It also means a few other things. Like "flagship", or in this case, more literally "spokesperson" (or spokeswoman since it's feminine).
http://www.freetranslation.com/

Just tell me why they are unique and what makes them anarchists, please.

Try using your own words because the sites don't have your conviction that they are actually anarchists.

Because they're ideology is called "Zapatismo" which is very similar to many idealized forms of anarchism because all the communities are autonomous municipalities where decisions are made by consensus and leadership is non-hierarchial.

 

[The Smoking Man]

It also means a few other things. Like "flagship", or in this case, more literally "spokesperson" (or spokeswoman since it's feminine).
http://www.freetranslation.com/
Because they're ideology is called "Zapatismo" which is very similar to many idealized forms of anarchism because all the communities are autonomous municipalities where decisions are made by consensus and leadership is non-hierarchial.

Dude, deciding to give you the benefit of the doubt, I did a http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=slv5-&p=Zapatismo anarchy&ei=UTF-8 on the key words 'Zapatismo Anarchy' and found that my post above was the #1 link in Yahoo (And consquently Google). This you should find scarey.

Leaping down to #6, the first 'legitimate link', http://rds.yahoo.com/;_ylt=AhqNa.WC...ent/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=41&ItemID=4796", I find that Coffe na lang dear was correct ...

There are a host of other names: autonomism, anti-authoritarianism, horizontality, Zapatismo, direct democracy...

Somehow, I am starting to feel like an educated man who understands the meaning of words being told in the 1960's that 'gay' now means 'homosexual'.

In other words, some Spanish speaking people or worse, English speaking people of little education, have hung a meaning on a word they don't truly understand. They have 'coopted' the word and hung a meaning on it that does not appear in any dictionary.

Now as far as the 'translation' of 'Comandanta', basic knowledge of Spanish requires that you use common sense. Since she doesn't particularly look like a boat (Bad photograph notwithstanding), you convert the word to the 'masculine' ... which means you replace the 'a' with an 'e'.

Now go back to the translation site you chose and enter the word 'comandante' which will return the word commander.

What you are looking at is a revolutionary movement who, if given the amount of power to take on the armed forces of their country, would have no hesitation in overthrowing that government. Correct?

So why are these revolutionary cells any different than any other revolutionary cells that have appeared in history?

So they are local government ... presumably since they would have a bit of trouble if they left the jungle and went to Mexico City their cammo, bandoiers and ski masks might give them away?

They work independently ... by choice or necessity since the odd cell phone could be triangulated to their jungle hideouts if the province had the cash to actually set up 'cells'?

You still have not given me any differences between these people and the NPA I had working for me in the Phillipines who were Maoist in their leanings.

Living on Mindanao, I know they were not receiving updates from Luzon and they too were working independently... and they worked independently from the Moslems... who were associated with but not working together with the Moslems from Indonesia and utimately, Al Qieda.

I don't know ... maybe you are unaware that these organizations ALL work in cells who are unaware of the other members in the organization so they can't betray them if caught?

 

[Smurf]

Leaping down to #6, the first 'legitimate link', http://rds.yahoo.com/;_ylt=AhqNa.WC...ent/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=41&ItemID=4796", I find that Coffe na lang dear was correct ... .

In other words, some Spanish speaking people or worse, English speaking people of little education, have hung a meaning on a word they don't truly understand. They have 'coopted' the word and hung a meaning on it that does not appear in any dictionary.

Well firstly...

1. *Gasp!* The western world hangs a meaning on something they don't truly understand? Noooooo, never heard of that before! It can't be true! Communism! Feminism! Liberalism! Conservatism! Dualism! Atheism! Ah hell, CHRISTIANITY! TELL ME THEY'RE NOT ALL TRUE! GAHHHHHHHHHH

but...

2. What is on that page that's different than what I've always said and have never heard an anarchist disagree on? That being that anarchism is just democracy in it's truest form.

Aside from his slight misonception in the end of the first paragraph "the business of a revolutionary is to seize state power and then begin imposing one's vision at the point of a gun." I don't see anything I'd disagree with (I have only skimmed it, I'm actually asking you to point out what I should disagree with)

You still have not given me any differences between these people and the NPA I had working for me in the Phillipines who were Maoist in their leanings.

Living on Mindanao, I know they were not receiving updates from Luzon and they too were working independently... and they worked independently from the Moslems... who were associated with but not working together with the Moslems from Indonesia and utimately, Al Qieda.

I don't know ... maybe you are unaware that these organizations ALL work in cells who are unaware of the other members in the organization so they can't betray them if caught?

I'm unaware of anything about those organizations actually, so I can't give you a list of differences. Want me to give you a list of differences between Al Quaeda and Zapatismo? They work in "cells", since that's what you're marginalizing this down to. Heh, even easier for me to list the differences for Christiania... let's see, christiania's only goal is to keep the community a good place to live where decisions are made by consensus and minimalize imposed behaviour, they don't try to blow people up! ummmm They arn't based on religious fundamentalism. More?

 

[The Smoking Man]

Well firstly...
1. *Gasp!* The western world hangs a meaning on something they don't truly understand? Noooooo, never heard of that before! It can't be true! Communism! Feminism! Liberalism! Conservatism! Dualism! Atheism! Ah hell, CHRISTIANITY! TELL ME THEY'RE NOT ALL TRUE! GAHHHHHHHHHH
but...
2. What is on that page that's different than what I've always said and have never heard an anarchist disagree on? That being that anarchism is just democracy in it's truest form.

Riiiight. Sure it is. Youre not too far wrong there if you are prepared to accept hat the United States Militia groups are set up to do the same thing in the USA ... It says so in the US constitution.

Aside from his slight misonception in the end of the first paragraph "the business of a revolutionary is to seize state power and then begin imposing one's vision at the point of a gun." I don't see anything I'd disagree with (I have only skimmed it, I'm actually asking you to point out what I should disagree with)

It's the point of a gun thing that is actually the important bit.

I'm unaware of anything about those organizations actually, so I can't give you a list of differences. Want me to give you a list of differences between Al Quaeda and Zapatismo? They work in "cells", since that's what you're marginalizing this down to. Heh, even easier for me to list the differences for Christiania... let's see, christiania's only goal is to keep the community a good place to live where decisions are made by consensus and minimalize imposed behaviour, they don't try to blow people up! ummmm They arn't based on religious fundamentalism. More?

No, once you agreed that you were using the word Anarchist incorrectly, it pretty well worked its way out. autonomism, anti-authoritarianism, horizontality, Zapatismo, direct democracy... all work better for me.

 

[Smurf]

No, once you agreed that you were using the word Anarchist incorrectly, it pretty well worked its way out. autonomism, anti-authoritarianism, horizontality, Zapatismo, direct democracy... all work better for me.

How is that any different than any number of libertarian anarchist goals?

Seriously, anti-authoritarianism, autonomism and direct democracy... That IS social libertarian anarchism!

 

[The_Professional]

You still have not given me any differences between these people and the NPA I had working for me in the Phillipines who were Maoist in their leanings.

You had NPA's working for you? what kind of work is this?

 

[The Smoking Man]

You had NPA's working for you? what kind of work is this?

I had a chicken farm ... they have to eat too you know.

 

[Astronuc]

Something to mull over - How Does Somalia’s Private Sector Cope without Government?

http://rru.worldbank.org/Documents/PapersLinks/280-nenova-harford.pdf

Haven't read it, but it looked intriguing.