The Twins Paradox and the Experience of Time

[Les Sleeth]

In Lifegazer’s thread on relativity, he raised the issue of the experience of relativity, then Fliption gave what I thought was a solid interpretation of that idea, and I raised the matter again in my thread on potential. So far no one has offered any suggestions on what to expect and so I remain very curious to hear opinions on this. I’ve framed the question in GR’s twins paradox.

The question is, would each twin's experience of time be the same? Say the traveling twin were gone five years according to shipboard clocks, and when he came back to Earth saw that 40 years had passed according to Earth clocks.

Although only five years had passed would the traveling twin feel like it had been the longest five years he'd ever experienced? That is, though his physical situation had been subject to time constriction, did it also make his consciousness fully relative to the physical circumstances?

 

[wuliheron]

You try spending five years cooped up on a rocketship and tell me it isn't the longest five years of your life. (sorry, just had to get that in.)

 

[Les Sleeth]

Originally posted by wuliheron
You try spending five years cooped up on a rocketship and tell me it isn't the longest five years of your life. (sorry, just had to get that in.)

That's funny Wuli, but not a bad point either. For the sake of proper control in this experiement, I suppose we'd have to make the spaceship a Galactica-type, so it was big enough to keep someone from going nuts.

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by LW Sleeth
That's funny Wuli, but not a bad point either. For the sake of proper control in this experiement, I suppose we'd have to make the spaceship a Galactica-type, so it was big enough to keep someone from going nuts.

You just answered your question, if in fact your'e allowed to provide for everyone's comfort and "well being."

 

[Les Sleeth]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
You just answered your question, if in fact your'e allowed to provide for everyone's comfort and "well being."

Not really. The idea is simply to not have excessive discomfort be the cause of judging "time" as longer than usual.

What we are after is if all other factors are constant, will the experiences of those in significantly different frames of GR reference be noticable?

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by LW Sleeth
Not really. The idea is simply to not have excessive discomfort be the cause of judging "time" as longer than usual.

What we are after is if all other factors are constant, will the experiences of those in significantly different frames of GR reference be noticable?

If I feel comfortable and I feel fine, then I doubt if I'm going experience anything other than "what's normal." Including time.

Otherwise we'll need to address those "ill-effects," lest we get sick and die.

 

[ahrkron]

Originally posted by LW Sleeth
What we are after is if all other factors are constant, will the experiences of those in significantly different frames of GR reference be noticable? [/B]

Not at all. They would experience time in exactly the same way.

Think of it this way: up to the moment one of them turns around (breaking the symmetry of the system), there is no way of telling who will be the youngest brother when they get back together.

Another way of undestanding it is this: relativistic time dilation affects all processes that you can use as measures of time. This not only includes quartz chrystals and radioactive decays, but also all those electrochemical processes that happen while you experience what you call "thinking".

The heart of the issue is that you cannot say that one twin has the "real" time, while the other is "delayed". This would be the same as assuming the existence of a preferred frame (plus the indefensible assumption that one of the twins is at, or closer to, the "right" time).

 

[Les Sleeth]

Originally posted by ahrkron
Think of it this way: up to the moment one of them turns around (breaking the symmetry of the system), there is no way of telling who will be the youngest brother when they get back together. . . . The heart of the issue is that you cannot say that one twin has the "real" time, while the other is "delayed". This would be the same as assuming the existence of a preferred frame (plus the indefensible assumption that one of the twins is at, or closer to, the "right" time).

I probalby should have made it more clear that I've assumed the twins grew up together, and so when the space trip happens, the traveling twin will have an experience of time that is different from that in which he grew up. I do NOT mean one frame of reference is preferred; I mean one frame of reference conditions the traveling twin to expect a certain pace of time.

Originally posted by ahrkron
Another way of undestanding it is this: relativistic time dilation affects all processes that you can use as measures of time. This not only includes quartz chrystals and radioactive decays, but also all those electrochemical processes that happen while you experience what you call "thinking".

True for purely material processes, which it seems you are assuming that consciousness is fully a product of. But even "thinking," on this issue at least, is preceded by the traveling twin's experience. I am asking if the traveling twin's consciousness will notice the difference in the rate of time.

 

[Janus]

Originally posted by LW Sleeth
I am asking if the traveling twin's consciousness will notice the difference in the rate of time.

There is no "difference in time rate" to notice (at least not in the way you are thinking of it). Instead, for the "traveling twin", the distance "traveled" is shorter than that measured by the "stay at home" twin, and thus takes less time to traverse.

 

[Les Sleeth]

Originally posted by Janus
There is no "difference in time rate" to notice (at least not in the way you are thinking of it). Instead, for the "traveling twin", the distance "traveled" is shorter than that measured by the "stay at home" twin, and thus takes less time to traverse.

I am going to question you further, not because I necessarily disagree, but because I do not yet believe what I am asking you answered.

First, let me be certain I understand your interpretation. When you say there is no difference in time rate to notice, are you saying that time has not been constricted for the traveling twin during the journey? It is "space-time" is it not that has been altered?

If time is not an issue, then how can it be the traveling twin finds his brother 35 years more aged than himself?

 

[CJames]

Spacetime isn't truly "altered" at all, it is just perceived in different ways. In any case, both twins' clocks, brains, rulers, bodily functions, lightbulbs, control pannels, anything, seem completely normal. The twin who comes home to find himself younger than everybody else will be very surprised, because his clock said it only took a little while, at no time did he feel as though time was being slowed down, at no time did anything seem unusual, unless he had decided to take a look at his surroundings closely.

And, as archaron has said, it's not as though the twin on the rocket is in motion and the other is at rest. Halfway through the whole cherade, while the rocket twin is still on his way off, niether twin can be said to be older. From the perspective of the earth-twin, the rocket twin should be younger. From the perspective of the rocket twin, the earth-twin should be younger. It is when the rocket-twin turns his ship around and starts heading back that he has altered things to the point that he, is for sure, the one that will have aged less. He passed through 2 different realms of time (with respect to the earth-twin.)

 

[Lifegazer]

Originally posted by CJames
Spacetime isn't truly "altered" at all, it is just perceived in different ways. In any case, both twins' clocks, brains, rulers, bodily functions, lightbulbs, control pannels, anything, seem completely normal. The twin who comes home to find himself younger than everybody else will be very surprised, because his clock said it only took a little while, at no time did he feel as though time was being slowed down, at no time did anything seem unusual, unless he had decided to take a look at his surroundings closely.

And, as archaron has said, it's not as though the twin on the rocket is in motion and the other is at rest. Halfway through the whole cherade, while the rocket twin is still on his way off, niether twin can be said to be older. From the perspective of the earth-twin, the rocket twin should be younger. From the perspective of the rocket twin, the earth-twin should be younger. It is when the rocket-twin turns his ship around and starts heading back that he has altered things to the point that he, is for sure, the one that will have aged less. He passed through 2 different realms of time (with respect to the earth-twin.)

This statement is so full of inconsistencies. The major one being between your first sentence, and your final sentence.

LWS... What you should realize about Relativity, is that it states all observers experience a different/unique universe. They literally experience a different universe. In the case of the twins, one might see his whole universe age 5 years, and the other twin 40 years.
Let's imagine if we sent 2 brothers to watch a game of football from different positions in the stand (this analogy loosely mirrors the spacetwin scenario, whereby the universe can be equated to ~the game~). If we sit next to the person who experiences the whole game (representing the earth-twin), we can know via the Lorentz-transformation, that the other observer (the spacetwin) has yet to see the second-quarter start.
Paradoxically; what would now happen if the guy who had already seen the game was now to go and 'sit with the observer' (have motion and position like the spacetwin) who has not yet seen the whole game? [Let's imagine that this observer (earthtwin) has the capacity to catch-up with the other observer in a matter of seconds - which wouldn't be difficult if they shared the same radial-of-orbit, as in my thread's example.]. Would he see the second-quarter (or catch the end of the game) again as he met up with his brother? Of course not. This would require time to actually reverse.

 

[Les Sleeth]

Originally posted by CJames
Spacetime isn't truly "altered" at all, it is just perceived in different ways. In any case, both twins' clocks, brains, rulers, bodily functions, lightbulbs, control pannels, anything, seem completely normal. The twin who comes home to find himself younger than everybody else will be very surprised, because his clock said it only took a little while, at no time did he feel as though time was being slowed down, at no time did anything seem unusual, unless he had decided to take a look at his surroundings closely.

I can almost agree that "both twins' clocks, brains, rulers, bodily functions, lightbulbs, control pannels, anything, seem completely normal." What you assume is that every element of a human being will be subjected to relativity; I am wondering if experientially he will be made to fully accommodate relativity.

Because relativity is only a physical principle, the question becomes one of the nature of consciousness. If it is purely mechanistic and purely matter generated, then we'd expect consciousness to be fully subject to relativity. But if there is an immaterial aspect to consciousness (and I don't necessarily mean "divine," just "non-material"), then we might expect it to notice that its physical environment is aging slower than it had gotten used to on Earth despite the fact that clocks, rulers, and all other measuring devices registered "normally."

 

[Les Sleeth]

Originally posted by Lifegazer
LWS... What you should realize about Relativity, is that it states all observers experience a different/unique universe. They literally experience a different universe. In the case of the twins, one might see his whole universe age 5 years, and the other twin 40 years.

Yes, but isn't it that the traveling twin's one year equals the Earth twin's eight years? Isn't it that the universe itself ages at a rate independent of the observers, and that it is measurement that is affected?

I freely admit that relativity paradoxes can make my brain ache, and I am open to learning all I can from anyone who understands relativity better than I. Yet in this thread at least I am not so interested in the details of relativity as I am in understanding how consciousness would be affected. In my example the traveling twin was already used to Earth's rate of time. Since relativity is a physical effect, and I don't believe consciousness is 100% physical, then it seems to me that the traveling twin will have some sense that his shipboard five years was the longest five years he'd ever experienced.

 

[Lifegazer]

Originally posted by LW Sleeth
Yes, but isn't it that the traveling twin's one year equals the Earth twin's eight years? Isn't it that the universe itself ages at a rate independent of the observers, and that it is measurement that is affected?

Yes. That's my point also.

 

[Janus]

Originally posted by LW Sleeth
I am going to question you further, not because I necessarily disagree, but because I do not yet believe what I am asking you answered.

First, let me be certain I understand your interpretation. When you say there is no difference in time rate to notice, are you saying that time has not been constricted for the traveling twin during the journey? It is "space-time" is it not that has been altered?

If time is not an issue, then how can it be the traveling twin finds his brother 35 years more aged than himself?

Let's break it down into what is measured from each frame.

Earth twin:

He sees his brother accelerate up to some large fraction of c Relative to himself and then coast. As a result, he sees his brother's time rate as running slower than his own. After coasting for some distance(Let's say to Alpha Centauri), his brother decelerates, and comes to a stop relative to him (the Earth twin). The space twin then accelerates back towards Earth, Coasts again, and then decelerates to a stop again next to him again.

According to the Earth twin, his brother's clock should show less elapsed time and his brother should have aged less than him, because of the large relative velocity difference between them during the majority of the trip.

Space twin:

His sees the Earth accelerate away from himself, while Alpha Centauri accelerates towards him. He also notes that there is a g-force acting on everything in the ship, acting in the same direction as the Earth and Alpha Centauri are Accelerating, and with a force that equals the rate of that acceleration.

This can be explain in two ways, that he is accelerating towards Alpha C, Or, He is standing still in a uniform Gravitational Field, and Earth and Alpha C are falling in it. Either assumption will give the same result because of the Equivalence Principle (equating Accleration and Gravitation), So we will use the second interpretation, as it allows us to treat the space twin as "fixed" frame of reference".

Therfore the Space twin sees the Earth fall away from him and Alpha Centauri fall towards him. As a result, he wil see the combination of two effects on his brother's time rate; one due to the Earth's increasing relative velocity, and one due to the Earth's position in the gravity field. Since Clocks lower in a gravity field will appear to run slower as measured form a frame higher in that field, he will see his Earth twin's brother's time rate as running slower. This is compounded by the fact that the Earth has an increasing Relative velocity, which will also decrease its time rate.

The g field leaves ( This corresponds with what the Earth twin sees as the "coasting" period.) Earth and Alpha C. now maintain a constant relative velocity with respect to him. He will see the time rate on Earth as running slower than his. He also will see length contraction in both the Earth, Alpha C and the distance between them (Earth and Alpha C are just two points in the same frame that is moving relative to him.) It will take some time (t) for this frame to go from The Earth being near to Alpha C being Near. This time will be shorter than that measured by his Earth Brother during this same period. (His Earth brother see him (travel 4.3 ly at a given speed taking a certain time. He sees Earth and Alpha C Fly by him at the Same speed, measures the Distance between them as less than 4.3 ly, thus the transit takes less time.

The g field returns, but this time it points the other direction. (Earth is now Higher in the Field.) But not only is Earth now higher in the Field, it is much higher than it was lower earlier.(He is close to Alpha C and Far from Earth) The Earth's time rate will now be measured as running faster than his own (much faster than it was running slower before.) Fast enough, that by the time the g field leaves again and the Earth and Alpha C are once again at rest relative to him, all the time he saw it losing during the other periods are made up, plus some. This "plus some" will be exactly the amount that the Earth twin will have seen as due to the Space twin's time rate moving slower.

The second half (That where the Earth returns to being next to him) will be just a mirror image of the first.

Meaning that when the twins are re-united they agree as to which twin has aged the least(or most) and by how much, but not as to why. By each twin's frame the time difference is due to the combinations of length contractions and time dilations his brother went through.

 

[Janus]

Originally posted by LW Sleeth
Yet in this thread at least I am not so interested in the details of relativity as I am in understanding how consciousness would be affected.

And herein lies a problem. The devil is in the details. If you don't have a grasp on them, you'll never be able to relate them to your question.

 

[Les Sleeth]

Originally posted by Janus
The second half (That where the Earth returns to being next to him) will be just a mirror image of the first. Meaning that when the twins are re-united they agree as to which twin has aged the least(or most) and by how much, but not as to why. By each twin's frame the time difference is due to the combinations of length contractions and time dilations his brother went through.

Thank you Janus for such a thorough explanation; it was one of the best I've seen here and cleared up a couple of points for me about the physical side of relativity.

Originally posted by LW Sleeth
Yet in this thread at least I am not so interested in the details of relativity as I am in understanding how consciousness would be affected.]

Originally posted by Janus
And herein lies a problem. The devil is in the details. If you don't have a grasp on them, you'll never be able to relate them to your question.

I am not sure you understand where I am coming from. That the details are crucial for sound understanding of relativity I do not doubt. But it seems you automatically assume a consciousness raised in Earth's frame of reference will "follow" physical relativity on the spaceship journey because, I suspect, you see no difference between the consciousness and physical reality.

That really is what my point addresses. Since consciousness and brain are equated, I think the materialist position will be that the traveling twin will not notice any difference (even though he grew up on Earth) because his entire frame of reference, including his brain, adjusted to the rates of change during his journey. As for me, I am not convinced I wouldn't notice that my rate of change had slowed (relative to my prior experience on Earth) because I don't think consciousness is 100% determined by physical factors.

 

[Janus]

Originally posted by Lifegazer
This statement is so full of inconsistencies. The major one being between your first sentence, and your final sentence.

LWS... What you should realize about Relativity, is that it states all observers experience a different/unique universe. They literally experience a different universe. In the case of the twins, one might see his whole universe age 5 years, and the other twin 40 years.
Let's imagine if we sent 2 brothers to watch a game of football from different positions in the stand (this analogy loosely mirrors the spacetwin scenario, whereby the universe can be equated to ~the game~). If we sit next to the person who experiences the whole game (representing the earth-twin), we can know via the Lorentz-transformation, that the other observer (the spacetwin) has yet to see the second-quarter start.

Here you go again, spouting off about Relativity, when you don't know what you're talking about.

Both twins would see the exact same proportion of the "game" played. One will just say that it took longer to play out. While One twin will say the first half took 1 1/2 hrs, the other will say it took 3. If the twins compared notes at any point of the "game" they would agree exactly as to which play just transpired, But wouldn't agree to how much time has expired(By their clock) since the Game started. Either one Twin will see the game progress in slow-motion or the other will see it progress in fast motion. (Or one will see it in fast motion while the other sees it in slow motion.) Also, if either twin took his field glasses of the field to scan the stands to find his brother, he will see him (and those sitting around him), as either moving in fast or slow motion.

Who sees what depends on each twin's "position" (relative velocity and Gravitational potential) Relative to the the "field" and each other.

 

[Janus]

Originally posted by LW Sleeth


I know you can't answer my overall question about conscious experience (because there is no way to test it). Since consciousness and brain are equated, I think the materialist position will be that the traveling twin will not notice any difference (even though he grew up on Earth) because his entire frame of reference, including his brain, adjusted to the rates of change during his journey. As for me, I am not convinced I wouldn't notice that my rate of change had slowed.

I think you missed the point of this statement:

By each twin's frame the time difference is due to the combinations of length contractions and time dilations his brother went through.

Put simply: "Relativistic effects always happen to the other frame.

You never have to worry about how your "consciousness" reacts to Relativistic effects, because you or nothing else in your frame experiences them. It is always the other frame in which the effects are measured (by you or anything in your frame).

This is what "no preferred frame of reference means".

 

[Les Sleeth]

Originally posted by Janus
I think you missed the point of this statement:

By each twin's frame the time difference is due to the combinations of length contractions and time dilations his brother went through.

Put simply: "Relativistic effects always happen to the other frame.

You never have to worry about how your "consciousness" reacts to Relativistic effects, because you or nothing else in your frame experiences them. It is always the other frame in which the effects are measured (by you or anything in your frame).

This is what "no preferred frame of reference means".

Good point, and it mirrors how we all live even in the same frame of reference.

However, I am not talking about comparing myself to my twin when I get back, but rather, comparing my experience of 5 years on Earth to my experience of five years while traveling.

 

[CJames]

This statement is so full of inconsistencies. The major one being between your first sentence, and your final sentence.

LOL, thanks LG, that's what happens when you write late at night. You don't explain things thoroughly enought.

Yes, the first sentence does seem to contradict the final sentence. However, notice that I said "with respect to the earth-twin." That doesn't completely clear things up, but it does a little bit to alleviate that. Anyway, I was digging myself into a hole saying that "Spacetime isn't truly 'altered' at all." That's confusing. I was just trying to get across the point that a meter is still a meter, no matter what reference frame you use.

The rest of the post, however, is correct. There aren't any other inconsistencies, unless you can point one out to me. It is true that the twin who turns himself around is the one that ends up with the slower clock, due to the explanation Janus just gave. The entire post is worded horribly though, I'll definitely give you that much.

Take care. --Carter

 

[CJames]

LW Sleeth, it doesn't come down to whether the mind is material or not. It comes down to the basic premises of relativity. The idea of relativity is that no reference frame can be said to be better than another, and that all things within that reference frame are entirely consistent. If they weren't, everything would break down. The point is, the observer is always at rest in his reference frame. He therefore shouldn't be able to feel anything as being different, no matter what kind of mind it is he is using to feel it.

 

[CJames]

However, I am not talking about comparing myself to my twin when I get back, but rather, comparing my experience of 5 years on Earth to my experience of five years while traveling.

You see that's just it, for those five years, you aren't travelling, it's always the other twin that is doing the travelling, because your frame of reference is always said to be at rest.

 

[Les Sleeth]

Originally posted by CJames
LW Sleeth, it doesn't come down to whether the mind is material or not. It comes down to the basic premises of relativity. The idea of relativity is that no reference frame can be said to be better than another, and that all things within that reference frame are entirely consistent. If they weren't, everything would break down. The point is, the observer is always at rest in his reference frame. He therefore shouldn't be able to feel anything as being different, no matter what kind of mind it is he is using to feel it.

Hmmmmmm . . . let me see if I can explain the exception I see to this. And please, I hope you, or Janus, or anyone else wanting to make sure relativity is properly explained and understood do not think I have any interest in challenging relativity. Consciousness, however, I see as not necessarily physical (or only physical), and because of that I cannot yet accept an assumption you are making about it in relativity.

Let's contrast two types of awareness.

Say a computer is able to generate awareness intelligent as humans are right now. The computer lives in an entirely electronic world where every device it interacts with is powered by the same source; the computer shares the same power source too. On hot days when air conditioners around the county are straining generators, the power level of computer's shared power supply drops. Now it and everything connected to the power supply slows proportionately; plus, the computer's awarenes slows too, and so notices absolutely nothing is different.

A neighbor intelligently-aware computer also lives entirely in an electronic world with lots of other electronic devices. All the devices share a common power source. However, this computer runs on its own generator, and so when air conditioners around the county slow down all the appliances around it, it notices the difference.

Similarly, if consciousness is purely a product of materiality, then when all materials slow or speed up, it should "follow" that and not notice any difference. But if some aspect of consciousness remains constant despite physical rates of change, then we might expect one to notice.

Does that make sense?

 

[Les Sleeth]

Originally posted by CJames
You see that's just it, for those five years, you aren't travelling, it's always the other twin that is doing the travelling, because your frame of reference is always said to be at rest.

True. But I am really talking about noticing a difference in the rate of change in my frame of reference compared to the rate of change in my prior frame of reference.

 

[Lifegazer]

Originally posted by Janus
Here you go again, spouting off about Relativity, when you don't know what you're talking about.

In this post, I'm going to show you a flaw in your reasoning. I'd like you to address this please.

Both twins would see the exact same proportion of the "game" played. One will just say that it took longer to play out. While One twin will say the first half took 1 1/2 hrs, the other will say it took 3. If the twins compared notes at any point of the "game" they would agree exactly as to which play just transpired, But wouldn't agree to how much time has expired(By their clock) since the Game started. Either one Twin will see the game progress in slow-motion or the other will see it progress in fast motion. (Or one will see it in fast motion while the other sees it in slow motion.) Also, if either twin took his field glasses of the field to scan the stands to find his brother, he will see him (and those sitting around him), as either moving in fast or slow motion.

Who sees what depends on each twin's "position" (relative velocity and Gravitational potential) Relative to the the "field" and each other.

I'm aware of the part in red. The point I was making is that when the twins suddenly meet-up, there is a distinct time-difference apparent in their appearances, too. One looks older than the other. For in what sense can we say that the twins have had a different experience of time, if their bodies are not different? Indeed, if the spacetwin returned after sufficient time, his brother would have aged into dust (being so old himself, he's dead). The Lorentz-transformations aren't just clever-math. They point to real experiences for each observer.
Therefore, we must assume that if the twins meet 'in the stadium', that they will have had real experiences in-line with the Lorentz-transformation (the math of relativity).
Therefore, we must assume that one twin has actually seen less of the same 'game' that his brother has been observing. Correct?

You can't have it both ways. You cannot say that the Lorentz-transformations point to each observer experiencing different times for the same event, unless you acknowledge that this is actually the reality of the situation, and that the spacetwin has actually experienced less of that 'game' than his brother.
And in that sense, you are wrong to state that the brothers can have different experiences of time, when if when they meet-up, they've both seen that game in its entirety.
A game lasts 80 minutes (or is it 40?). That's not important. What is important, is that 2 observers cannot watch the same game and say that they've both watched the same number of 'quarters'. For if this is the case, then in what sense can we say that they've had different experiences of the same game, concerning time?

 

[Janus]

Originally posted by LW Sleeth
True. But I am really talking about noticing a difference in the rate of change in my frame of reference compared to the rate of change in my prior frame of reference.

But you don't change frames of reference. In the Twin paradox for instance, for the space twin, it is the Earth that changes frames. There is no "prior" frame of reference to compare your rate to.

 

[Janus]

Originally posted by Lifegazer
In this post, I'm going to show you a flaw in your reasoning. I'd like you to address this please.

I'm aware of the part in red. The point I was making is that when the twins suddenly meet-up, there is a distinct time-difference apparent in their appearances, too. One looks older than the other. For in what sense can we say that the twins have had a different experience of time, if their bodies are not different? Indeed, if the spacetwin returned after sufficient time, his brother would have aged into dust (being so old himself, he's dead). The Lorentz-transformations aren't just clever-math. They point to real experiences for each observer.
Therefore, we must assume that if the twins meet 'in the stadium', that they will have had real experiences in-line with the Lorentz-transformation (the math of relativity).
Therefore, we must assume that one twin has actually seen less of the same 'game' that his brother has been observing. Correct?

No, not correct. The "game" is just another frame of reference, which each twin is observing from his own frame of reference. They just see the time in this frame and each other's as progressing at different rates.

You can't have it both ways. You cannot say that the Lorentz-transformations point to each observer experiencing different times for the same event, unless you acknowledge that this is actually the reality of the situation, and that the spacetwin has actually experienced less of that 'game' than his brother.
And in that sense, you are wrong to state that the brothers can have different experiences of time, when if when they meet-up, they've both seen that game in its entirety.
A game lasts 80 minutes (or is it 40?). That's not important. What is important, is that 2 observers cannot watch the same game and say that they've both watched the same number of 'quarters'. For if this is the case, then in what sense can we say that they've had different experiences of the same game, concerning time?

Since each frame will have its own time rate (as measured form any other frame), How long the game lasts depends upon which frame you measure it from. It could last 80 min from the frame of the field itself, 160 mins for one twin, and 40 mins for the other. At the end of the game bring both twins onto the field (Within the same frame) both twins will agree that they saw the whole game from their seats, and the officials on the field will say the game is over. But if they compare clocks.(sychronized before the start of the game. they will show different times, and twins and officials will each have aged the amount as shown on their respective clocks.

This is what Relativity and the Lorentz contractions say. Not what you are trying to pass off as what they say.

 

[CJames]

Similarly, if consciousness is purely a product of materiality, then when all materials slow or speed up, it should "follow" that and not notice any difference. But if some aspect of consciousness remains constant despite physical rates of change, then we might expect one to notice.

Does that make sense?

Yes, it does make sense, but again, it comes from a misunderstanding of relativity. I can't blame you for that, it is indeed pretty counterintuitive. It comes from this idea you have in your head that it has to do with all the materials in that frame of reference slowing down or speeding up. There aren't any "physical rates of change" caused by relativity. What you have to understand is that in a particular reference frame, nothing is running slow etc. It's not that everything in there is slowed down proportionally to everything else so it seems normal. It's that everything is normal.

Think of it like this. Right now, we are moving away from some parts of the universe at almost the speed of light. But we consider ourselves to be at rest. There is no way to decide who is at rest. There is no absolute frame of reference that decides whether you are moving or not. It therefore makes no sense to think that time should feel different for any particular mind based on its "motion." The only way that could happen is if all our minds somehow communicate with each other and decide who is at rest, which is ridiculous.

 

[CJames]

Therefore, we must assume that one twin has actually seen less of the same 'game' that his brother has been observing. Correct?

This seems to be your fundamental misunderstanding of SR, lifegazer. He will have seen the entire game (if he's watching it), it will just have taken a different amount of time to finish. The players will appear to be moving faster, or slower, the clock on the scoreboard will be moving at a different rate in comparison to each observer's clock.

 

[Les Sleeth]

Originally posted by Janus
But you don't change frames of reference. In the Twin paradox for instance, for the space twin, it is the Earth that changes frames. There is no "prior" frame of reference to compare your rate to.

True, one is always in his own frame of reference. I said something I didn't mean. I will explain what I meant in my next post to CJames.

 

[Les Sleeth]

Originally posted by CJames
Yes, it does make sense, but again, it comes from a misunderstanding of relativity. I can't blame you for that, it is indeed pretty counterintuitive. It comes from this idea you have in your head that it has to do with all the materials in that frame of reference slowing down or speeding up. There aren't any "physical rates of change" caused by relativity. What you have to understand is that in a particular reference frame, nothing is running slow etc. It's not that everything in there is slowed down proportionally to everything else so it seems normal. It's that everything is normal.

Think of it like this. Right now, we are moving away from some parts of the universe at almost the speed of light. But we consider ourselves to be at rest. There is no way to decide who is at rest. There is no absolute frame of reference that decides whether you are moving or not. It therefore makes no sense to think that time should feel different for any particular mind based on its "motion." The only way that could happen is if all our minds somehow communicate with each other and decide who is at rest, which is ridiculous.

Thank you CJames for bearing with me (thanks to Janus too). I will tell you why I believe some part of your explanation isn't just counterintuitive to me, but it appears to contradict physical facts.

You say that "nothing is running slow etc. It's not that everything in there is slowed down proportionally to everything else so it seems normal. It's that everything is normal."

Let's compare the circumstances of the twins paradox at a couple of stages. While traveling, that twin sees all measurements of time as normal, as does the Earthbound twin.

When the traveling twin returns home however, 35 more years have passed there than on his ship. I am not saying that either frame of reference is the "true" one, but something different has occurred in each situation because the traveling twin and his spaceship have aged at 1/8th the rate that Earth and its inhabitants have. I mean, each twin is going to notice that!

If it weren't for that difference in aging, then I would agree with you. But that aging is a physical fact, and it is a fact of change. What is the nature of aging-type change? Overall it is entropic, and so it appears that the rate of entropy was affected by acceleration. If time is the rate of entropy, the accelerating spaceship slowed "time" by increasing its mass/gravity during acceleration, which we might expect would alter the rate of entropy.

Before getting back to "experience" of relativity, let's see if you agree that actual, physical differences result between someone accelerating and someone zooming along at a (relatively) constant rate.

 

[Lifegazer]

Originally posted by CJames
This seems to be your fundamental misunderstanding of SR, lifegazer. He will have seen the entire game (if he's watching it), it will just have taken a different amount of time to finish. The players will appear to be moving faster, or slower, the clock on the scoreboard will be moving at a different rate in comparison to each observer's clock.

This is just totally wrong. Your (and Janus') position, is that both observers see an 80 minute game at the same rate (literally). One brother flies-off into space, then experiences time to slow-down (relatively) to his brother on Earth. So; would you please explain how this spacetwin has had this tangible-experience of time-distortion if he has seen as much of 'the game' as his brother, when they meet-up?
I promise you that your argument will not stand-up to logic. If the spacetwin has experienced a 'normal 8o minutes' of the game at the same rate as his brother, then it is impossible for them to have experienced time & space differently. I promise you. If you argue against this fact, then you are exhibiting a total ineptitude to logic.

 

[Lifegazer]

Originally posted by Janus
No, not correct. The "game" is just another frame of reference

It's an identical game of reference, as observed by both twins. It is 'absolute', in this sense. What the game might observe of itself is irrelevant. If the quarterback scores in the first quarter, then he scores in the first quarter for both twins. Fact. What the game might observe of itself is irrelevant. The same game is observed by all.
The question here, is whether the spacetwin has seen less 'quarters' than his brother on Earth. If you read my last post, to CJames, then you'll see that I say that he does - and he must - for the lorentz-transformations to have any tangible meaning. If they don't have tangible/experienced meaning, then what do the Lorentz transformations mean to each observer? Nothing.

which each twin is observing from his own frame of reference. They just see the time in this frame and each other's as progressing at different rates.

And yet, when they meet-up (as I did stipulate), you are advocating that both twins shall have seen as much of 'the game'. What happens if we bring-them together at the final-whistle? - Both twins have just had a supposedly-normal experience of an 80-minute game, at the same rate (according to you). So where does the experience of a time-distortion come into it?

Since each frame will have its own time rate (as measured form any other frame), How long the game lasts depends upon which frame you measure it from. It could last 80 min from the frame of the field itself, 160 mins for one twin, and 40 mins for the other.

That's what the math tell us. That's what I'm working on (though I argue that 'the field' does not have its own given frame-of-reference. Its frame-of-reference is the observer who sees that field like it is). It just-so happens that all observers shall see the 'same game', eventually.
All observers will see 'a field'. Some will say that the field is longer or shorter than what you think it is. Similarly, some observers will tell you that less events (of experienced time) have happened upon that field. That is exactly what space-time distortion of 'the field' does. It changes your experience of time & space.
Hence, you must acknowledge that the spacetwin will not only measure a different length of the field (assuming he had the technology to do so, from his position); he will also experience less events happening upon that field. This is the only way to make the Lorentz-transformations become 'real' (as experienced) for each observer.

At the end of the game bring both twins onto the field

Better-still; imagine we can bring the spacetwin back to the earth-twin's extra-wide seat at the almost-exact moment of the final-whistle. Now let's scrutinise what you say next...

(Within the same frame) both twins will agree that they saw the whole game from their seats, and the officials on the field will say the game is over.

As confirmed earlier, you are advocating that the 2 twins can see the same 'game' at the same rate. And next, you say this...

But if they compare clocks.(sychronized before the start of the game. they will show different times, and twins and officials will each have aged the amount as shown on their respective clocks.

This is literally nonsensical. Sincerely. How can their clocks move differently if the players on the pitch have not? Can the spacetwin see a 'normal' game in 13 experienced-minutes, for example? How? How can the spacetwin have a 'normal experience' of 13 minutes, and see a full game of football?
Let's face it, if this was the case, then the spacetwin's experience of time is far from 'normal'.

This is what Relativity and the Lorentz contractions say. Not what you are trying to pass off as what they say.

With all due respect, I don't think logic/reason supports your imagined reality of Einstein's work. There is no logical-way that your explanation mirrors any sense of the Lorentz-transformation.
I apologise for being direct. But this is important. Please address it.