Physics after Electrical Engineering

[maverick280857]

Hello all

This topic has probably been debated before, but I have some specific queries and I would like your answers to them in addition to your views.

I have the option of pursuing a BTech (equivalent of BS) in Electrical Engineering, an integrated BTech-MTech dual degree in Electrical Engineering or an Integrated MSc degree in Physics from IIT Kanpur.

As I am extremely interested in purusing physics in a research career eventually, I wanted to take up the integrated degree in Physics but I have been advised to take up Electrical Engineering and pursue Physics after completing my BTech. My primary interest in Physics is Particle Physics. Of late, I have been teaching myself Quantum Mechanics through Griffiths, Eisberg, Schiff and now I have begun to like the subject more than ever.

My queries are

1. Considering my interest in purusing Physics at the graduate level, should I go in for a BTech (4 year) program in EE or an integrated (5 year) BTech-MTech dual degree program? In the latter case, I will graduate with a BTech and an MTech in EE.

2. To pursue Physics after EE, what courses must I take from the Physics dept during my study as an engineering student? Also what exams do I have to take after BTech? Please also advise about books I should use during my engineering training so that I can adapt to Physics later.

3. To pursue Physics after EE, is it sufficient to do a PhD in physics later or is it necessary to do both a masters (MS) and a PhD in physics? In the latter case, is it advisable to consider a four year program in EE and pursue MS in Physics (related to question 1)?

4. Is it advisable at all to go in for EE at this stage and forego a 5 year program in Physics (this question has meaning only if your answers to the first 3 state that Physics cannot be pursued after EE)?

I am eagerly awaiting replies...

Thanks for your time...

Cheers
Vivek

 

[Gokul43201]

Preliminary suggestion : Do not do the Int MTech. Graduate with a BTech or go for the Int MSc.

I have no idea how things work any longer. You haven't been through the counseling session yet, I'm guessing. Why have you decided on Kanpur? K makes sense if you know you're going to do Physics. Does K offer a Minor stream with the BTech program?

 

[maverick280857]

Thanks for the response Gokul

Preliminary suggestion : Do not do the Int MTech. GRadute with a BTech or go for the Int MSc.

Okay, but can you elaborate on the reasons please?

I have no idea how things work any longer. You haven't been through the counseling session yet, I'm guessing. Why have you decided on Kanpur?

I have lived on the campus here all my life, studied in Kanpur and I absolutely love this place Also, I am familiar with the programs here.

K makes sense if you know you're going to do Physics. Does K offer a Minor stream with the BTech program?

No, I am not aware of any IIT which offers a Minor stream with BTech.

 

[Gokul43201]

Okay, but can you elaborate on the reasons please?

Seeing that you are keen to eventually do physics, it seems like you'd only be hurting that by spending the extra year specializing in EE. As for your prospects with applying to grad school (I imagine you'd want to be doing that), I don't think the MTech really helps in terms of making you more qualified. I don't personally know anyone that did the Int MTech, but my gut feeling is that the IIT MTech (Int) student has lower "brand recognition" than the IIT BTech (and the IIT-K MSc Physics) student. In the rare case that you want to go to grad school in EE, and you do the Int MTech, you still will likely have to repeat a bunch of the same courses during grad school.

No, I am not aware of any IIT which offers a Minor stream with BTech.

They were planning to implement that some 5 years ago. I guess they're not done planning yet (or they canned the idea).

And by the way, congrats on getting into IIT.

 

[Gokul43201]

As an extra bit of advice that you can factor into your selection algorithm, getting a BTech degree does not make it harder to get into a very good physics grad program, especially if you've planned for the switch well in advance.

I imagine people around you are advising strongly against the Int MSc!

 

[maverick280857]

They were planning to implement that some 5 years ago. I guess they're not done planning yet (or they canned the idea).

No, I don't they will implement it wef 2006. I don't think they plan to implement it at all in the near future actually.

And by the way, congrats on getting into IIT.

Thanks

 

[maverick280857]

As an extra bit of advice that you can factor into your selection algorithm, getting a BTech degree does not make it harder to get into a very good physics grad program, especially if you've planned for the switch well in advance.

So how does one plan for the switch well in advance?

I imagine people around you are advising strongly against the Int MSc!

Yes they are

 

[Gokul43201]

So how does one plan for the switch well in advance?

1. If you have any freedom at all with course selection, you should get in as many Physics courses as you can. Start with the basic courses in Class. Mech, QM, E&M and Stat. Mech. If you can't actually credit many (or worse, any) Physics courses, try and schedule some room to audit them.

2. Work on summer projects with the people in the Physics dept. Develop your computational skills - the easiest projects to land at the early stages are computational ones. I take it you are not particularly interested in going into experimental physics.

3. Be aware of the Physics GRE syllabus and make sure you cover all parts of it reasonably well in advance of actually taking the test. If you do this, you have a good chance of cracking the test. My memory is quite foggy here, but I think only about 30% or so of the material is beyond the scope of the JEE.

4. Impress the physics profs. You want them to write you strong reference letters.

5. And finally, the tough one. Do your BTech project with the Physics Dept. If your dept is as stuck up as mine was, they won't allow this. The next best alternative is an interdisciplinary project straddling physics and EE. Whether this is possible with the EE dept at Kanpur, I have no idea. It might be worth finding out about this during your counseling session.

Yes they are

I've been there too.

 

[maverick280857]

1. If you have any freedom at all with course selection, you should get in as many Physics courses as you can. Start with the basic courses in Class. Mech, QM, E&M and Stat. Mech. If you can't actually credit many (or worse, any) Physics courses, try and schedule some room to audit them.

I am not sure about CM, EM and SM but I think I can take a QM course through Open Elective.

2. Work on summer projects with the people in the Physics dept. Develop your computational skills - the easiest projects to land at the early stages are computational ones. I take it you are not particularly interested in going into experimental physics.

No that's not true...I am interested in going into experimental physics (mainly) but I have academic interests in theoretical physics too. As for EE, my father specializes in DSP and circuits...that interests me somewhat but I think the current overlapping field is optics...thats interesting too but after reading so much about particles and atoms, I find that more enticing.

3. Be aware of the Physics GRE syllabus and make sure you cover all parts of it reasonably well in advance of actually taking the test. If you do this, you have a good chance of cracking the test. My memory is quite foggy here, but I think only about 30% or so of the material is beyond the scope of the JEE.

Yes I did see some old test questions...apart from the undergraduate hardcore course stuff, quite a lot is JEE level or in a delta neighbourhood of it.

5. And finally, the tough one. Do your BTech project with the Physics Dept. If your dept is as stuck up as mine was, they won't allow this. The next best alternative is an interdisciplinary project straddling physics and EE. Whether this is possible with the EE dept at Kanpur, I have no idea. It might be worth finding out about this during your counseling session.

Oh I thought the earlier ones could be tough. I think that overlapping could be in optics...as for other fields, maybe something related to accelerator electronics or something (nuclear physics related). I think this is possible at IITK...but I will find out.

By the way what books would you recommend for all those physics courses for an engineering student (I have absolutely no problem with the math...I can cope with it...so suggest anything you feel like) so that GRE prep is possible despite the EE courseload?

 

[maverick280857]

Someone please reply...

 

[siddharth]

No, I am not aware of any IIT which offers a Minor stream with BTech.

I know that IIT Madras offers a minor stream with BTech.

Your first year covers a common syllabus for all courses, right? In IIT-M, you'll be taught an introduction to QM in your first semester, and EM pretty thoroughly in your second semester.

 

[Gokul43201]

I am not sure about CM, EM and SM but I think I can take a QM course through Open Elective.

You have only ONE elective? Even I had more than that, and I thought they were making the system more flexible. Siddharth, how many electives can you take ?

No that's not true...I am interested in going into experimental physics (mainly) but I have academic interests in theoretical physics too. As for EE, my father specializes in DSP and circuits...that interests me somewhat but I think the current overlapping field is optics...thats interesting too but after reading so much about particles and atoms, I find that more enticing.

Yes, the likely areas of overlap are in optics/photonics and semiconductor/device physics.

Oh I thought the earlier ones could be tough. I think that overlapping could be in optics...as for other fields, maybe something related to accelerator electronics or something (nuclear physics related). I think this is possible at IITK...but I will find out.

I meant "tough" in the sense that this is heavily dependent on bureaucracy.

By the way what books would you recommend for all those physics courses for an engineering student (I have absolutely no problem with the math...I can cope with it...so suggest anything you feel like) so that GRE prep is possible despite the EE courseload?

I have little or no recollection of the GRE syllabus any longer, but for over two-thirds of it, there's nothing to beat good old Resnick and Halliday.

 

[siddharth]

I can take one free elective each semester, starting from my 3rd year(ie, 5th semester).

 

[maverick280857]

You have only ONE elective? Even I had more than that, and I thought they were making the system more flexible.

No, I meant I am not aware if the other courses are offered to non-physics students...I have to find out. As most of the 4th sem courses are compulsory in EE, one has to chose electives wisely

I meant "tough" in the sense that this is heavily dependent on bureaucracy.

I hope not...

Does anyone here have an idea of the switch requirements as of now? Books, courses, etc?

 

[Gokul43201]

Does anyone here have an idea of the switch requirements as of now? Books, courses, etc?

What exactly do you mean by "switch requirements"?

 

[maverick280857]

What exactly do you mean by "switch requirements"?

Books I must read from during my engg education so that I am adept at handling physics (theory) later...esp if I am studying myself (without courses)...

You answered my queries about the courses and I did some independent research. I turns out that the following courses are necessary:

1. Classical Mechanics
2. Statistical Mechanics
3. Quantum Mechanics
4. Electromagnetic Theory
(5. Maybe Quantum Field Theory later..)

As for mathematics,

1. Basic stuff, misc mathematical tools
2. Linear algebra
3. Group Theory
4. Differential Equations

seem okay for a start?

 

[Gokul43201]

I looked at the IIT-K Physics course list. These are the ones I'd give a highest priority to :

PHY - 401, 412, 421, 431, 432 and 553;

http://www.iitk.ac.in/phy/New01/phy_msc5.html

As for books, you'll find the standard texts listed in several threads here. Here's a few :

1. QM : Griffiths Or Resnick & Eisberg followed by Schiff, Shankar or Sakurai
2. E&M : Griffiths (which will likely be your text for you first year Physics course) followed by Jackson
3. CM : Goldstein (or Greenwood, if that is already an assigned text for some course)
4. SM : Reif or Pathria or Hwang or Greiner
5. Math : assigned textbook for MTH 203 (likely Arfken or Kreyszig or some equivalent)

What is an SE ? (I see you can take 4 OEs, 3 DEs and 2 SEs)

 

[maverick280857]

Thanks for looking at the list Gokul and for all the help so far

PHY 552 is a prerequisite for 553.

I do not have Shankar, Sakurai and three of the SM books. I'll try and get hold of them.

SE = Science Elective. I still haven't found out the exact rules for taking physics electives if you're an EE student. Also, EE seems to have the least number of electives...

 

[leright]

Books I must read from during my engg education so that I am adept at handling physics (theory) later...esp if I am studying myself (without courses)...

You answered my queries about the courses and I did some independent research. I turns out that the following courses are necessary:

1. Classical Mechanics
2. Statistical Mechanics
3. Quantum Mechanics
4. Electromagnetic Theory
(5. Maybe Quantum Field Theory later..)

As for mathematics,

1. Basic stuff, misc mathematical tools
2. Linear algebra
3. Group Theory
4. Differential Equations

seem okay for a start?

A course on thermal physics and condensed matter are also quite necessary, especially if you want to get into solid state electronics or physics.

 

[leright]

Also, have you considered a double major in EE and physics? It is easier than you might think since there is considerable overlap and often they will allow certain tech electives to be applied toward physics courses.

I am doing this and I am able to apply one EE tech elective toward a physics course and one concentration elective toward physics.

In addition to the EE requirements, I am required to take thermal physics (3 credits), condensed matter physics (3), quantum mechanics (4), optics, lasers, and microscopy (3), contemporary physics + contemp lab (4). The E&M class EEs take is identical to the E&M physics majors take. Also, the university physics 1 and 2 classes (with labs) are the same for both EE and physics (basic mechanics, and basic optics/emag). I am also going to take the analytical mechanics class (4 credits) and hope that the mechanical systems requirement is waived. For some reason, they don't make engineering/physics dual majors take the analytical mech. class. I am also hoping that the thermal systems req. is waived (which is like EE thermodynamics) due to the thermal physics class I am taking.

 

[Gokul43201]

leright : the school that maverick will go to (in India) does not offer a double major.

maverick : You certainly don't want to get yourself all the books I've suggested. Any one among the alternatives (for one subject) should do.

Also, somewhere between 30 to 60% of PHY552 will be covered in your BTech physics course (PHY102 perhaps?)

 

[siddharth]

Also, somewhere between 30 to 60% of PHY552 will be covered in your BTech physics course (PHY102 perhaps?)

Yeah, that's true, in the PHY102 course.

 

[maverick280857]

In our case that would be PHY103...it covers the following topics:

Vector Calculus; Electrostatics; Gauss law and applications, electrostatic potential and Curl of E; Work and energy in electrostatics, Laplace’s Equation and (first) uniqueness theorem, method of images, multipoles (introduction), force and torque on dipoles; Polarization, bound charges, Electric displacement and boundary conditions, Linear dielectrics, force on dielectrics. Motion of charges in electric & magnetic fields; Magneto-statics: Current Density, Curl and divergence of B, Ampere’s law and applications, magnetization, bound currents and bound pole densities, Magnetic field H, Magnetic susceptibility, Ferro, para and diamagnetism, Boundary conditions on, B and H Faraday’s law, Energy in magnetic field, Displacement current, Maxwell’s equations in Media, Poyntings Theorem, E.M. Waves: Wave equation, plane waves, polarization and types of polarization, Energy and momentum of plane E.M. waves. Propagation through linear media and conductors. Reflection and transmission at normal incidence from dielectric and metal interfaces. Magnetism as a relativistic phenomenon. Relativistic transformations of E B fields (simple illustrations only), Diffraction, Quantum Mechanics,* Photons, Uncertainty Principle, Electron diffraction experiments, De Broglie Hypothesis, Born interpretation, Schrodinger-Equation and application to 1-D box problem.

And this course is compulsory...for all students in the undegraduate program (including Physics students). Still, PHY552 is listed as a prerequisite for PHY553 (http://www.iitk.ac.in/doaa/coursesofstudy2005/physics-c-1.pdf) . (The first year courses are common to all branches.)

 

[Gokul43201]

This is quite different from what I had. Why have they stuck a tiny, and almost useless bit of QM into it?

I'm highlightling the parts that I think are of highest importance.

In our case that would be PHY103...it covers the following topics:

Vector Calculus; Electrostatics; Gauss law and applications, electrostatic potential and Curl of E; Work and energy in electrostatics,

Most of this (except for the vector theorems) are probably familiar from JEE material. You'll just have to get a little used to a different formalism.

Laplace’s Equation and (first) uniqueness theorem, method of images, multipoles (introduction), force and torque on dipoles; Polarization, bound charges, Electric displacement and boundary conditions, Linear dielectrics, force on dielectrics.

Much of this will be new and is important to understand.

Motion of charges in electric & magnetic fields; Magneto-statics: Current Density, Curl and divergence of B, Ampere’s law and applications, magnetization, bound currents and bound pole densities,

This is mostly stuff you already know, but will be understanding in a new language.

Magnetic field H, Magnetic susceptibility, Ferro, para and diamagnetism,

There's no good way to teach this in one class (as it most likely will be). It will involve a lot of hand-waving. Ignore the lack of rigor, but retain the definitions.

Boundary conditions on, B and H Faraday’s law, Energy in magnetic field, Displacement current, Maxwell’s equations in Media, Poyntings Theorem, E.M. Waves: Wave equation, plane waves, polarization and types of polarization, Energy and momentum of plane E.M. waves.

This part, like the second portion above, is very important and forms the basis of any grad level E&M course.

Propagation through linear media and conductors. Reflection and transmission at normal incidence from dielectric and metal interfaces.

Again, there will be liberal hand-waving here, and this may take a bunch of additional reading to understand well.

Magnetism as a relativistic phenomenon. Relativistic transformations of E B fields (simple illustrations only),

A great opportunity to get a little familiar with the transformations of fields and get aquainted with some very nice problem solving tricks.

Diffraction, Quantum Mechanics,* Photons, Uncertainty Principle, Electron diffraction experiments, De Broglie Hypothesis, Born interpretation, Schrodinger-Equation and application to 1-D box problem.

Unless you have an exceptional teacher and significant time (much more than I imagine can be spent on this) to cover this portion, I feel most of this will be quite useless. If you get past the first few chapters of Griffiths, you've already done better.

And this course is compulsory...for all students in the undegraduate program (including Physics students). Still, PHY552 is listed as a prerequisite for PHY553 (http://www.iitk.ac.in/doaa/coursesofstudy2005/physics-c-1.pdf) . (The first year courses are common to all branches.)

Some pre-requisites may be waived if the Prof teaching the course is convinved that you have the required expertise. Given the limited opportunity to take outside courses, I'd be careful to avoid those that are significantly redundant to those you've already taken.

PS : The link you attached doesn't work for me. And why the * after QM?

 

[leright]

My emag class covered everything except the following:

Magnetism as a relativistic phenomenon. Relativistic transformations of E B fields (simple illustrations only),

My class also didn't cover QM. Is this typical or did I get screwed?

 

[Gokul43201]

It's not typical to cover QM in an E&M course.

 

[leright]

It's not typical to cover QM in an E&M course.

what about relativistic E&M? MY class covered everything except the QM and the relativistic stuff. I don't see how any more can be covered. It seemed like a ton without it. Cramming too much in can at times be a bad thing. You want a chance to think really deeply about things.

 

[maverick280857]

Hi (wow I didn't notice more replies...thanks guys )

The 1st year physics courses at IITK are introductory physics courses. The formalism isn't new for some of us who have read Griffiths' electrodynamics but there might be some new ideas thrown in. As for EM, I don't think there's anything absolutely new...but new ideas or old ones in a new presentation. The course does not have a name (its a core course) so even if they throw in a bit of QM, its not nonstandard. Perhaps this is not the practice in other places. Special relativity is introduced in PHY102 so its application to EM in PHY103 only seems natural as for many people who do not take EE/PHY or an electromagnetics course later, covariance and transformations will be new things.

I don't know why there is a star after QM

 

[siddharth]

One more thing Vivek, usually the departement may not complete all the topics due to a lack of time. For example, in IIT-M, the PHY intro course covered only till "Energy and momentum of plane E.M. waves". Something similar happened in the first sem as well. I don't know how it is in IITK, but you might want to ask around to make sure.

And congrats for getting in

 

[maverick280857]

One more thing Vivek, usually the departement may not complete all the topics due to a lack of time. For example, in IIT-M, the PHY intro course covered only till "Energy and momentum of plane E.M. waves". Something similar happened in the first sem as well. I don't know how it is in IITK, but you might want to ask around to make sure.

Aah that's not a problem at all...you have to read yourself eventually...can't depend completely on someone to teach you. Good books exist and we can always sort things out with teachers here

And congrats for getting in

Thanks mate

 

[maverick280857]

Hi everyone

Thanks for your comments. And if anyone else on this forum is in the same eigenstate as I am, then please feel free to use this thread to discuss..

Should you have anything to add to what has been discussed here, write back.

Cheers
Vivek

 

[eng.phy]

Hi everyone

I am about to enter college & face a similar dilemma. I've enjoyed phy & maths as a student & was hoping to do bsc+msc in physics but was not very passionate. I was strongly advised against it & told that engineering physics would be a good option as it would keep avenues open in both pure & applied physics. However i failed to get into iits & could not find any other reputed colleges offering EP. I now have an option of going into a low reputed EP course or to pursue electronics &comm. eng. in iiit H. I was told that I could pursue studies in pure as well as applied physics after B.Tech in ECE , though the curriculum seems to offer hardly any physics courses there. Will careers in physics still be open after ECE in iiitH(which seems to be more specialised than other colleges), or should I join EP in a low rank college?
please help

 

[Goldbeetle]

I would start with physics immediately. With that background you can later specialize in EE.