The impossible lost city Mega .

[Andre]

the impossible lost city "Mega".

We have been there several times:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=6347
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=38797
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=86402

I have said on several occasions that something unexplanable like this tends to be forgotten as soon as possible. it only fuels crackpots with fantastic Atlantis stories. And if we cannot explain it, it should not exist. Evidence for that attitude is the failure to really exploit this site systematically. Only the discoverers were attempting to do so until their funding dried up.

But ever increasingly harder evidence doesn't go away. http://www.nwidi.org/TheMegaBlog/

What would this evidence mean for a certain pet idea?

 

[Tsu]

...And if we cannot explain it, it should not exist.

WHAT?

 

[Andre]

Well, I would say, that's an confirmed recurring observation. For instance for climatology and evidence *against* the explanation of the Pleistocene Ice Ages is the wide spread Northern Hemisphere mega fauna steppe with a dense population of horses, antilopes, lions up until way above the Artic circle in Siberia, oh yes, also mammoths, but weren't those just walking around in a constant blizzard? Ice age movies?

More here: page 4 second half

http://home.wanadoo.nl/bijkerk/refuting%20the%20Greenland%20paleo%20thermometer1.pdf


The disdaining of those animals for the explanation of the ice cores, caused it not to exist in the IPCC reports up until the last assessment report of the IPCC.

There is also something very wrong with the current ideas about isostacy tectonics if Wuchang Wei is right:

http://geology.geoscienceworld.org/cgi/content/abstract/30/4/379

Wuchang Wei, 2002, Beijing inundated by the sea within the past 80 k.y.: Nannofossil evidence; Geology; April 2002; v. 30; no. 4; p. 379-381

ABSTRACT

Examination of published data reveals that a marine bed in Beijing can be dated as 80 ka or younger on the basis of abundant nannofossils. This age is 30 times younger than that published previously on the basis of magnetostratigraphic and biostratigraphic interpretations. The abundant nannofossils and foraminifers suggest that Beijing was inundated by the sea within the past 80 k.y. The very recent nature of this marine transgression has profound societal and geological implications and thus calls for new studies and thorough evaluation of all relevant data sets.

So where are all those new studies, called for, 5 years after date? Anybody working on that? Where is the curiosity of science? Cognitive dissonance? If we have no idea what's going on and no clue what to look for and how to tackle it, then it should not exist?

But yesterday (after I wrote that) I received a new promising study about the last glacial termination with the gist: we don't understand a thing of it, falsifying my idea.

It's from http://www.pages.unibe.ch/:

GH Denton, WS Broecker, RB Alley,2006; The mystery interval 17.5 to 14.5 kyrs ago, Pages Volume 14 No 2 August 2006, pp14-17

Abstract
The time period between the beginning of Heinrich event #1 (H-1) and the onset of the Bølling/Allerød rivals the Younger Dryas in importance to our understanding of how the planet responds to abrupt mode switches. This interval also constitutes the onset of the most recent termination, arguably the most fundamental climate shift of the last 100-kyr glacial cycle. As some of the responses during this time appear to be mutually contradictory, we term it the “Mystery Interval”.

As usually drop me a PM for sending (>8MB)

Do we finally begin to understand that our interpretation of the proxies of the past is often wrong and that something completely different happened?

 

[matthyaouw]

Just a thought about sea level changes... I get the impression that there are a lot of problems with our understanding of vertical crustal movements. As far as I am aware, the jury is still out on how the Lizard ophiollite and SW U.K. batholith came to be uplifted to the height that they are. There is also evidence that mountain building can happen a lot faster than previously thought (link) so perhaps crustal movements rather than absolute sea level change could be responsible.

 

[Andre]

Just a thought about sea level changes... I get the impression that there are a lot of problems with our understanding of vertical crustal movements. As far as I am aware, the jury is still out on how the Lizard ophiollite and SW U.K. batholith came to be uplifted to the height that they are. There is also evidence that mountain building can happen a lot faster than previously thought (link) so perhaps crustal movements rather than absolute sea level change could be responsible.

Thanks, appreciate the link, I'm collecting anonalies. It appears that we may be closing in on scenarios like this:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=165114

 

[delta001]

And if we cannot explain it, it should not exist.

Wtf? So UFOs don't exist because we can't explain them when clearly they do? (and I don't mean aliens, I mean any airborne object that is not identified by scientists or the military. Remember those weird lights over that city somewhere that appeared in some year that haven't been explained at all).

So by your logic your statement that I quoted doesn't exist because I can't explain the logic behind it. THEREFORE YOU DO NOT EXIST!

 

[matthyaouw]

I think you two may have missed the point of that statement slightly...

 

[delta001]

What point did I miss?

 

[baywax]

There seems to be a lot of submerged megalithic, sophisticated and presumably prehistoric monumental structures. Here's one off the southern Japanese island of Okinawa.

http://www.lauralee.com/japan/japan2.htm

And India's getting in on the action!

Wednesday February 9, 1:50 PM

Scuba-dive and view Krishna's Dwarka

By Ashish Mehta, Indo-Asian News Service

Ahmedabad, Feb 9 (IANS) People can now catch a glimpse of Lord Krishna's fabled underwater Dwarka city off the Gujarat coast.

An adventure sports company is launching scuba diving facilities near the pilgrimage town of Dwarka, 457 km here, which will enable the divers to glimpse the underwater "Bet Dwarka".

"It will be the first time in India and probably in the world where people can dive and see an ancient submerged city," Adventures Sports Limited marketing executive S.K. Singh told IANS.

The city-based Adventure Sports will sign a memorandum of understanding (MoU) with the state government Thursday.

The MoU proposes two projects at an estimated cost of Rs. 130 million. Apart from Bet Dwarka, the firm will also offer scuba diving facilities at Marine National Park, near Jamnagar, 313 km from here.

"The feasibility study of the Jamnagar project is awaited," Singh said.

Lord Krishna's Bet Dwarka was long believed to exist only in the realm of mythology, before the Archeological Survey of India (ASI) conclusively proved its existence on the basis of underwater findings.

http://in.news.yahoo.com/050209/43/2jhw3.html

Apparently the straw found mixed with the ceramic building bricks at the site dates (C14) the city to approx. 9500 BP.

 

[Andre]

That's cool stuff, sunken cities a dozen or so fathoms deep are getting increasingly common. The problem with the Cuban site, Mega, is that it's about 2000 feet deep. That's the impossible part as sea levels were supposed not to have risen more than about ~400 feet after the last ice age, while the rise started 19000 years ago.

That's the puzzle.

 

[baywax]

That's cool stuff, sunken cities a dozen or so fathoms deep are getting increasingly common. The problem with the Cuban site, Mega, is that it's about 2000 feet deep. That's the impossible part as sea levels were supposed not to have risen more than about ~400 feet after the last ice age, while the rise started 19000 years ago.

That's the puzzle.

Have any geologists weighed in their opinion on this anomaly? I'm pretty sure they could point to an event that dropped the crust by that amount in that region. Pretty sure but I don't know.

 

[Andre]

Have any geologists weighed in their opinion on this anomaly? I'm pretty sure they could point to an event that dropped the crust by that amount in that region. Pretty sure but I don't know.

Not really, that's why I opened with:

I have said on several occasions that something unexplanable like this tends to be forgotten as soon as possible.

The only geologist who described the phenomonon is Manuel Itturalde Vinent, in a web page,

http://www.medioambiente.cu/museo/exmari.htm

No peer reviewed publication. Nothing.

 

[billiards]

maybe it slipped off the ocean shelf in some kind of mega landslide??

Disclaimer: note that i know about as much about this case study as i know about the stock market, i.e. nothing.

 

[Andre]

Problem is that you'd have to come up with a scenario that did not destroy it. So no caldera stuff or slides I'm afraid.

How about a pulsating equator?

 

[PRDan4th]

I know little to nothing about this subject, but it is very interesting. I suppose a civilization that built this city when the sea level was at its lowest level, the Gulf of Mexico could have been a closed in sea like the Black Sea. If that were so (the Strait of Florida being a land bridge to Cuba) then the Yucatan Channel would be like the Bosporus with two levels of water flow (dense sea water flowing in below less dense fresh water flowing out). As the sea level rose, before the Florida Strait overflowed, Sea water flow in would have become huge. This could have cut a channel under the city of Mega causing it to fall almost intact to its current level.

How does a pulsating equator cause this?

 

[Andre]

How does a pulsating equator cause this?

http://home.wanadoo.nl/bijkerk/Pulsating-ice-age.pdf

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=165114

Suppose that the geoide shape of the Earth was a little variable, but sea level is not, then a pulsating Earth causes tremendous sea level changes.

 

[billiards]

One major criticism I have of that diagram, is it says that the ocean volume increases. How in nature does that occur?

Edit: oh yeah, thermal expansion, doh!

 

[Andre]

Well, remember that a sphere has the most volume with the least surface area. If Earth changes it's shape towards more spherical with volume remaining constant, then the surface area reduces. So the same amount of water has to be spread out over less surface. Result higher sea levels.

 

[matthyaouw]

For the surface area to change, surely there would be some notable crustal extension and subsequent shortening. Where do you propose this occurs?

edit: also, at what rate do these fluctuations occur? We have techniques good enough to measure the movement of the tectonic plates, so why haven't they picked this up?

 

[Andre]

Haven't you ever wondered what the cause was of all those parallel East west ridges in the Atlantic perpendicular to the Mid Atlantic ridge? How about the deep N/S rifts in the pacific

 

[matthyaouw]

You mean the strike-slip faults? As far as I'm aware those don't represent any extension or compression- the volume and thickness of the crust is not altered by them.

 

[matthyaouw]

sea level is not a simple surface. Since the sea surface conforms to the Earth's gravitational field, [mean sea level] also has slight hills and valleys that are similar to the land surface but much smoother.

http://www.esri.com/news/arcuser/0703/geoid1of3.html

Wouldn't sea level therefore correct itself to the changing shape of the Earth if it was pulsating like you say? Or would this amplify the effect? I really am having a hard time getting my head round this one...

 

[Andre]

Think of the oceans as an independant fluid planet, shaping itself purely by it's own gravity and centrifugal forces. Now think of the Earth without water, basically having the same forces that makes up it's shape. But there are more forces acting on Earth, caused by the dynamics of the Earth Core and Mantle, which are only acting on the solid, not on the fluid. This would cause the Earth to make changes in it's shape, whereas the fluid part does not (in principle). of course there are complications like minute changes in gravity that make the oceans react to.

But remember it is all speculation of course. Just see if the idea fits to the empiric evidence.

 

[matthyaouw]

I don't know if you missed my question above: at what rate and magnitude do these fluctuations occur? We have techniques good enough to measure the movement of the tectonic plates, so have they picked this movement up?

 

[Andre]

It's supposed to explain the sudden transition to the unexplained non-Milankovitch 100,000 years isotope cycles in the ice cores and at the oceans floors, that started to occur about a million years ago.

 

[baywax]

Problem is that you'd have to come up with a scenario that did not destroy it. So no caldera stuff or slides I'm afraid.

How about a pulsating equator?

How about Hydro Isostacy? There'd have to be fractures that disallowed the landmass to rise after the isostacy so perhaps a combination, one-two sink and shake?

Did I miss a link to underwater photos of this site?

 

[matthyaouw]

Andre, you can find several years worth of data for a whole network of incredibly accurate GPSs, including height data here: http://sideshow.jpl.nasa.gov/mbh/series.html

If your theory has something to it, there should be a reasonably good correlation between latitude and height variation over the course of the last few years. Why not put it to the test?

 

[Mk]

I think you two may have missed the point of that statement slightly...

Haha, I know!

And for the ones that didn't get "the point of that statement" it had to do with sarcasm and poking fun at some people's ways of thinking

 

[Andre]

I don't have the impression that the movement is regular as in a harmonic cyclic, rather than being chaotic and more "catastrophic". Something like 5000-10.000 years of increased eccentricity of the geoide to get into the interglacials and then a much slower 20-30,000 retreat to a rounder situation, the glacial stadia and then silence again for ~50-60,000 years before a next cycle. This would reflect the pace of the typical cycles:

http://www.sierraclub.ca/national/programs/atmosphere-energy/climate-change/vostok-ice-core.jpg

Again, we are not looking at "temperature" here but isotope anomalies, which may have a completely different explanation in the pulsating Earth.

The last action took place between 19,000 yr and 9000 years. I have filled many threads here, mostly monologues, illustrating the weird things that happened. You will also find high tectonic activities and volcanims in that periods.

You might expect currently small pertubations around a stable situation.

Problem with testing this kind of ideas is the all-swans-are-white hypothesis, illustrated here.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=169202

So, the first step is falsifying the current hypothesis and I have a bunch of black swans, debunking the current beliefs about the Pleistocene ice age. You can't read my threads and not stumble upom links substantiating that. This cuban city is a beautiful white swan. So is Beijing under sea. So is the herd of 10 fossil Narwhals found in situ on October revolution islands in the Arctic sea on an elevation of 120 meters. Although the bones are beyond carbon dating, those are not mineralized yet, which would certainly limit the age to not more than 100,000 - 150,000 years but likely less.

Here is one of the vertebras:

http://home.wanadoo.nl/bijkerk/vertebra.JPG

Indeed we need a good prediction. I predict that Earth will gradually get rounder in the next 30,000 years. Hmm, testability?

So we keep collecting white swans, I have a dozen or so more, until we find that black one, then we move on to the next hypothesis.

 

[baywax]

I don't have the impression that the movement is regular as in a harmonic cyclic, rather than being chaotic and more "catastrophic". Something like 5000-10.000 years of increased eccentricity of the geoide to get into the interglacials and then a much slower 20-30,000 retreat to a rounder situation, the glacial stadia and then silence again for ~50-60,000 years before a next cycle. This would reflect the pace of the typical cycles:

http://www.sierraclub.ca/national/programs/atmosphere-energy/climate-change/vostok-ice-core.jpg

Again, we are not looking at "temperature" here but isotope anomalies, which may have a completely different explanation in the pulsating Earth.

The last action took place between 19,000 yr and 9000 years. I have filled many threads here, mostly monologues, illustrating the weird things that happened. You will also find high tectonic activities and volcanims in that periods.

You might expect currently small pertubations around a stable situation.

Problem with testing this kind of ideas is the all-swans-are-white hypothesis, illustrated here.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=169202

So, the first step is falsifying the current hypothesis and I have a bunch of black swans, debunking the current beliefs about the Pleistocene ice age. You can't read my threads and not stumble upom links substantiating that. This cuban city is a beautiful white swan. So is Beijing under sea. So is the herd of 10 fossil Narwhals found in situ on October revolution islands in the Arctic sea on an elevation of 120 meters. Although the bones are beyond carbon dating, those are not mineralized yet, which would certainly limit the age to not more than 100,000 - 150,000 years but likely less.

Here is one of the vertebras:

http://home.wanadoo.nl/bijkerk/vertebra.JPG

Indeed we need a good prediction. I predict that Earth will gradually get rounder in the next 30,000 years. Hmm, testability?

So we keep collecting white swans, I have a dozen or so more, until we find that black one, then we move on to the next hypothesis.

There are so many examples of fossils of seabottom dwelling creatures being found at such heights as 14,000 feet in the Rockies.

this unrelated article has a passage about fossils at that altitude.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/10/031031062625.htm

If this sort of dramatic change can happen with the crust (for many different reasons) then a city can sink to 2100 feet no problemo.

Please post a link to any photos of this MEGA site.

 

[Andre]

http://www.cuba.cu/ciencia/citma/ama/museo/exmari.htm

http://www.cuba.cu/ciencia/citma/ama/museo/exmar3i.htm
http://www.cuba.cu/ciencia/citma/ama/museo/exmar6i.htm
http://www.cuba.cu/ciencia/citma/ama/museo/exmar8i.htm

 

[matthyaouw]

I'll admit I'm getting quite caught up in this and want to discuss it more, but I have a sizeable essay to write for Thursday and exams the week after so I'm going to wait until later before I start properly reading up on this.

 

[billiards]

Problem is that you'd have to come up with a scenario that did not destroy it. So no caldera stuff or slides I'm afraid.

How about a pulsating equator?

Looking at the data it is not at all clear that the structures are manmade. How can you say that it has not been destroyed when it is not even clear if it ever existed? Assuming that it really is a lost city, how can you rule out some kind of catatrophic event that might have destroyed the finer details of the city but left the general features in tact?

 

[Andre]

The sonars shows complex regular temple like structures of several hunderd meters along straight "roads" Some firm earthquakes may indeed not have destroyed the general outline. But landslides is a different game of course, you would not end up with rectangular constructions.

This all may be clear if you check on the details in the older threads. I seem to remember that we have discussed the credibility at length.

 

[baywax]

The sonars shows complex regular temple like structures of several hunderd meters along straight "roads" Some firm earthquakes may indeed not have destroyed the general outline. But landslides is a different game of course, you would not end up with rectangular constructions.

This all may be clear if you check on the details in the older threads. I seem to remember that we have discussed the credibility at length.

Thanks Andre...

the UW landslides seem rampant in the area. The faults are suspiciously either side and south of the MEGA site. I see no reason to doubt that geological activity brought this down to its current (no pun ) level. Its a wonder its not buried as well.

I've seen the Bimini road in detail and that's definitely hand placed and hand crafted megalithic work. The photos look the same. Erosion from the ocean has a disintegrating and rounding effect on the stone. However, if you look at the Japanese ruins off S Okiniwa, the right angles are still well kept in this area. Perhaps less current to round them out. Or, perhaps the MEGA site is much older than the Japanese one.

What is the status of dating hand hewn rock faces?! There was talk of a method where the rock that had been exposed by hand in the last 20,000 years was datable when compared to the age of the parent stone?