One of the more disturbing crimes

[russ_watters]

I'm surprised this doesn't have a thread yet, but this is one of the more disturbing crimes I've ever heard of:

AMSTETTEN, Austria (AP) — The children locked in the basement never saw the light of day.
A retired electrician has confessed to imprisoning his daughter for 24 years and fathering seven children with her in a windowless cell sealed by an electronic keyless-entry system, police said Monday...


His daughter Elisabeth, now 42, was 18 when she was imprisoned in the cell constructed deep beneath the family's apartment in the building, said Franz Polzer, head of the Lower Austrian Bureau of Criminal Affairs.

"He admitted that he locked his daughter ... in the cellar, that he repeatedly had sex with her, and that he is the father of her seven children," Polzer told The Associated Press.

According to police, Elisabeth said she gave birth to twins in 1996 but one died several days later.

Police said the surviving children are three boys and three girls, the youngest of whom is 5. The oldest child is 19. DNA tests were expected to determine whether Fritzl is the father of the children, as he claims.

Investigators said they were trying to determine how the victims could have been hidden away for so long from other families in the building and everyone else in the town of 23,000 people.

Fritzl "managed to deceive everyone," including his wife, Rosemarie, who apparently was unaware of the existence of the children in the cellar, Polzer said.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2008-04-28-austria-captive_N.htm

 

[binzing]

Wow that's pretty fu(ked up!

 

[Poop-Loops]

Reading this was like taking an entire stat mech course in 2 minutes, except you don't get anything out of it.

"Why can't I go down to the cellar? What's in there!?"
"Seven kids that have with our daughter. Oh sh**, I mean, not 7 kids."
"Oh. Ok."

The wife HAS TO be in on it.

 

[Greg Freeman]

Can't believe his wife didn't even know...wow.

 

[binzing]

So, like, where the kids in the cellar with her too?

 

[Moonbear]

I read this somewhere else earlier today. Pretty horrific! And I too found it REALLY hard to believe the wife knew nothing of it. How do you hide that there's someone living in your basement? It leaves me thinking the wife may have been abused as well and perhaps "beaten" into silence (literally or figuratively). How do you go 24 years without ever wandering into your own basement unless someone is threatening you not to go there?

 

[OmCheeto]

I read this somewhere else earlier today. Pretty horrific! And I too found it REALLY hard to believe the wife knew nothing of it. How do you hide that there's someone living in your basement? It leaves me thinking the wife may have been abused as well and perhaps "beaten" into silence (literally or figuratively). How do you go 24 years without ever wandering into your own basement unless someone is threatening you not to go there?

Icky spiders? And those creepy moaning groaning ghost noises all hours of the day.

Ahhhhhh!

I don't think I like this thread. What a nightmare.

 

[Werg22]

I've read it earlier. I had a very bad day and this story just made it worse. I'm just shocked someone could do that.

 

[Poop-Loops]

I read this somewhere else earlier today. Pretty horrific! And I too found it REALLY hard to believe the wife knew nothing of it. How do you hide that there's someone living in your basement? It leaves me thinking the wife may have been abused as well and perhaps "beaten" into silence (literally or figuratively). How do you go 24 years without ever wandering into your own basement unless someone is threatening you not to go there?

What's more, the daughter was 18 when she was locked in. Did he report her being kidnapped? Ran away? Just went off on her own?

 

[bassplayer142]

How do you explain needing and having food for 7 people in one house in a house that is supposed to be two. What about toilets flushing in the basement or other noises made by them. This is very disturbing and I can't see how she wouldn't be in on it!

 

[B. Elliott]

A lot of it still doesn't make sense to me. Like this part...

Three of the children lived with the grandparents. Fritzl and his wife registered those children with authorities, saying that they had found them outside their home in 1993, 1994 and 1997, at least one with a note from Elisabeth saying she could not care for the child.

And this...

Investigators said the area where she and three of the children were held included rooms whose height did not exceed 5 feet 6 inches. The area had a TV and small hot plates for cooking.

So, were the children being cared for by the grandparents, or were they locked in the room with Elizabeth? Either there's a few holes or there's something I didn't pick up on.

 

[Poop-Loops]

There were 7 kids. Both could have occurred.

 

[Danger]

I first heard of this this morning, and just watched an update on CTV National. The man reported that his daughter had run away, and then dropped off her children as she had them with notes that she couldn't care for them.
I have no doubt that the mother either knew or strongly suspected that something was amiss, but I also know that abused women eventually just quit asking questions. They either leave or die. This one seems to have been inadvertently rescued half-way through that process. I know what abusive husbands/fathers are capable of, so I can't fault the mother for not speaking up.

 

[B. Elliott]

There were 7 kids. Both could have occurred.

I gotcha. I thought there was only Elizabeth and her three kids. That would explain it.

 

[NeoDevin]

7 kids, 1 died, apparently 3 with the grandparents and 3 in the basement.

 

[cristo]

What's more, the daughter was 18 when she was locked in. Did he report her being kidnapped? Ran away? Just went off on her own?

From what I read yesterday, I think he forced her to write a "running away" letter, and then, I presume, gave this to the police.

 

[Moonbear]

What's more, the daughter was 18 when she was locked in. Did he report her being kidnapped? Ran away? Just went off on her own?

I missed that she was 18 at the time.

 

[Werg22]

Officials said Mr Fritzl faced up to 15 years in prison if eventually convicted on charges of rape and sequestration.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7373689.stm"

Up to 15 years? Am I the only one in shock? That SOB should be put in jail for life with no chance of parole.

 

[Beeza]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7373689.stm"

Up to 15 years? Am I the only one in shock? That SOB should be put in jail for life with no chance of parole.

No he should be killed by means of slow torture.

 

[jim mcnamara]

Up to 15 years? Am I the only one in shock? That SOB should be put in jail for life with no chance of parole.

He's 74 I think. He won't live that long - not due to age either. Even the bad guys in jail won't tolerate this monkey being around for long. Like Dahmer and others who commit over-the-top crimes like this, he will end up as a "suicide" in prison. A "suicide" reported the same sense that the guy's wife is reporting she knew nothing.


A criminal is frequently no equal to his deed: he makes it smaller and slanders it. (by his very existence - jmc)
- F Nietzsche

 

[Werg22]

He's 74 I think. He won't live that long - not due to age either. Even the bad guys in jail won't tolerate this monkey being around for long. Like Dahmer and others who commit over-the-top crimes like this, he will end up as a "suicide" in prison. A "suicide" reported the same sense that the guy's wife is reporting she knew nothing.


A criminal is frequently no equal to his deed: he makes it smaller and slanders it. (by his very existence - jmc)
- F Nietzsche

Maybe he won't live to see his release, but it's a matter of a fair sentence. They can't base the sentence on the culprit's age.

 

[g33kski11z]

That SOB should be put in jail for life with no chance of parole.

No he should be killed by means of slow torture.

.. he should be placed in a cold dark basement, repeatedly raped by a silverback gorilla and then beaten to within inches of life. Then taken to a hospital, healed, and placed back in the basement. Then burn his body once he dies.

 

[Poop-Loops]

Just off the guy. I don't care about torturing him, it won't help the situation. I just think he shouldn't live anymore, and ASAP at that.

 

[Evo]

I wonder how old the 3 children were at the time that the demented father and mother "found" them? They are the children's grandparents. If they were old enough to speak, surely the wife would have questioned them about her daughter and found it odd that they wouldn't speak of anything.

Also, it says that the 19 year old was found inside the apartment building unconscious and ill. I suppose the father removed the unconscious girl and dumped her in a hallway to be found?

The article has too many holes in it to make sense.

It's is really terrible.

 

[Danger]

There is a troubling trend here, of which I am a part. We are all assuming, based upon what we've read, that the guy is guilty. That's the antithesis of proper legal procedures.

 

[Moonbear]

There is a troubling trend here, of which I am a part. We are all assuming, based upon what we've read, that the guy is guilty. That's the antithesis of proper legal procedures.

There are cases where I'll hold off judgement until the jury makes a decision, but this is one of those where it's really hard to envision any other explanation in a "caught red-handed" sort of scenario where he wouldn't be guilty (other than not guilty by reason of mental defect or insanity). Of course, well-publicized cases like this do present a challenge in finding an unbiased jury.

For me, the question regarding guilt or innocence is really more about the wife...was she an accomplice, another victim, or really as clueless as the news stories say she was?

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

There is a troubling trend here, of which I am a part. We are all assuming, based upon what we've read, that the guy is guilty. That's the antithesis of proper legal procedures.

Nothing we could write on this forum would constitute proper legal procedures. I wonder what a scientist makes of the phrase "beyond the shadow of a doubt"? Anyway, this article is enough to convict the guy in the court of my mind.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24363811"

 

[Art]

There is a troubling trend here, of which I am a part. We are all assuming, based upon what we've read, that the guy is guilty. That's the antithesis of proper legal procedures.

He's admitted his guilt.

DNA 'backs Austrian incest claim'

DNA evidence supports an Austrian man's confession that he fathered six children by his daughter while keeping her prisoner for 24 years, police say.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7373689.stm

I would think the wife was in on it too and not necessarily against her will. Could be like the Moor's Murderers or another Rose West. Rose happily assisted in the rape and murder of her own daughter amongst her and her husband Fred's many victims. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosemary_West

You'd wonder how these freaks find each other.

 

[Danger]

He's admitted his guilt.

That was unpublicized in my neck of the woods at the time of my previous post.
Still, I've seen people confess to things that they didn't do to seek publicity or to protect others.
This is why I'm so opposed to the death penalty; there's just too damned much ambiguity in most situations.
I have no personal doubt that this guy did it and deserves some horrible punishment, but I am not in a position to judge.

 

[russ_watters]

That was unpublicized in my neck of the woods at the time of my previous post.

It's in the second sentence quoted in the OP.

Still, I've seen people confess to things that they didn't do to seek publicity or to protect others.

Certainly, but if you want to hold us to the standards of a court, his admission, not to mention the clarity of the evidence against him, satisfies my "reasonable doubt".

 

[Danger]

It's in the second sentence quoted in the OP.

Yeah, but the OP was you, and we know how much stock I put in your social opinions.

What I meant was that no credible news source had released that information in my area. You should know as well as anyone that I don't believe anything that I read on line or see on Fox. If I don't see it on CTV or CBC, it doesn't count.

 

[russ_watters]

Right, Canadians own truth. Sorry, I forgot.

I don't believe anything that I read on line

Well, what if you can read it on CTV?

...confessed...

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080429/police_austria_080429/20080429/

 

[Poop-Loops]

Right, Canadians own truth. Sorry, I forgot.

Well, not really. See, it's kind of like Jesus and God. God doesn't own Jesus, yet they are one and the same. That's more apt of an analogy. Canada IS truth and in turn truth IS Canada.

If you found a way to destroy Canada, by like telling them how to sharpen sticks and use weapons or something, you'd see truth as we know it fall apart and you'd see a bunch of Michael Moores running around.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I haven't read anything that describes much about the wife. I knew a girl who was repeatedly molested by her father and brother and her mother really was clueless. The woman had been in and out of mental hospitals for years and they always gave her shocks because they hadn't access to her medical history for some reason. So her brain wound up fried. When I met her she constantly seemed as though she was only barely aware of what was going on yet still she lived in a house on her own with her children, had a car and a drivers license, ect.

 

[Danger]

Right, Canadians own truth. Sorry, I forgot. Well, what if you can read it on CTV?

What I meant was that CTV news (and occasionally CBC) are the only news programmes that I ever see. While I have access to Yankee news via cable, it would make no sense for me to watch it. It has no relevance to my life here. Even your respectable networks like NBC have limited international coverage, and the domestic stuff is of no interest for the most part. Anything that is relevant gets replayed on our networks, so I get to see it anyhow.