Is pushing yourself to the point of injury really worth it in weightlifting?

[WarPhalange]

so, how much you bench, WP?

Why don't we just skip the formalities and compare penis sizes right now?

it's not as if guys try to get injured, that would just set back their training. but it happens all the time. maybe it's just a small tear in a muscle that shows up as a bruise, but it's common. actually pulling a tendon off a bone happens less frequently, but still more often than you might think.

Sure, but that just means they pushed themselves too hard. Congrats! You now cannot work that part of your body for a significant amount of time. How strong will that make you?

now, you may not be getting injured, but i suspect you haven't made much progress, either, noob.

Holy crap you're right! I'll go try and deadlift 700lbs so I can tear my hamstrings and dislocate a disk in my spine. That will make me stronger, right?


If you get injured in training, you are doing it wrong or there was an accident. Period. Not to mention, muscle doesn't even regenerate fast enough for it to make sense to go balls to the wall every single time. If you train to failure ever session you're not making much progress.

 

[Proton Soup]

Why don't we just skip the formalities and compare penis sizes right now?
Sure, but that just means they pushed themselves too hard. Congrats! You now cannot work that part of your body for a significant amount of time. How strong will that make you?
Holy crap you're right! I'll go try and deadlift 700lbs so I can tear my hamstrings and dislocate a disk in my spine. That will make me stronger, right?If you get injured in training, you are doing it wrong or there was an accident. Period. Not to mention, muscle doesn't even regenerate fast enough for it to make sense to go balls to the wall every single time. If you train to failure ever session you're not making much progress.

you really just don't know what you're talking about. sure, if you never strain yourself, you're less likely to get injured. but people get injuries in different sports all the time, even when they're not pushing themselves to the limit.

if your sport happens to be powerlifting, the only way you're going to make progress is by adding weight to the bar over time. you may deload for a time, but before you get too detrained, you go right back to heavy loading. it's called progressive overload.

for what it's worth, i really don't care how much you lift. i don't even think you do.

 

[WarPhalange]

you really just don't know what you're talking about. sure, if you never strain yourself, you're less likely to get injured. but people get injuries in different sports all the time, even when they're not pushing themselves to the limit.

Yes, those fall under the category of "accident". Nobody intends to go on the basketball court so they can get their arm broken.

if your sport happens to be powerlifting, the only way you're going to make progress is by adding weight to the bar over time.

Yup. Our disagreement comes down to how often you add that weight and what your offset is.

Funny thing is that I haven't been able to find a single source that says power lifters should train to failure all the time and work out with a significant risk of injury, so they can improve.

Yeah yeah, it's only the internet. I bet all the real power lifters simply have fingers so large that they can't type on a keyboard so they just stay off the internet, right?

you may deload for a time, but before you get too detrained, you go right back to heavy loading. it's called progressive overload.

Them be some fancy words. Where did you get edjumacated like that?

for what it's worth, i really don't care how much you lift. i don't even think you do.

And I don't believe you have any idea what you are talking about. Does that make us even?

 

[Proton Soup]

Yes, those fall under the category of "accident". Nobody intends to go on the basketball court so they can get their arm broken.

Yup. Our disagreement comes down to how often you add that weight and what your offset is.

what do you mean by offset?

Funny thing is that I haven't been able to find a single source that says power lifters should train to failure all the time and work out with a significant risk of injury, so they can improve.

i never said anything about training to failure all the time. i even mentioned deloading, which you seem to brush off as a fancy concept.

Yeah yeah, it's only the internet. I bet all the real power lifters simply have fingers so large that they can't type on a keyboard so they just stay off the internet, right?

Them be some fancy words. Where did you get edjumacated like that?

And I don't believe you have any idea what you are talking about. Does that make us even?

i'm still waiting. do you have any experience lifting at all?

 

[WarPhalange]

what do you mean by offset?

How much weight you start with when you begin training.

i never said anything about training to failure all the time. i even mentioned deloading, which you seem to brush off as a fancy concept.

Which is completely different than what I am saying. "Deloading" means going back down after you have reached some weight X, right?

Training to failure means training until you cannot complete another rep. You have to do that every now and then, but if you do that every workout, you won't make gains and can possibly hurt yourself.

This is similar to the guy at the gym who goes "I come here to bench press every day! How come I'm not making any gains? :( "

i'm still waiting. do you have any experience lifting at all?

Still waiting for what? Find me a source that says what you are saying (that you should train to your max all the time and injuries are to be proud of) and I'll give you some number, and then you'll say you don't believe me, and then I'll say I don't care, and you'll say I don't really train, and I'll say you have no idea what you are talking about.

Sound about right to you?

 

[Proton Soup]

How much weight you start with when you begin training.

that's pretty individual, and about all you can do to choose a beginning weight is test your strength, then work at some percentage of that.

Which is completely different than what I am saying. "Deloading" means going back down after you have reached some weight X, right?

yes, it is backing down. for instance, maybe you would start at a weight and rep-range that is 80-85% of what you're capable of. then you plan over the course of say 3 weeks to progressively increase the weight lifted until you're at 100-105%. this is a plan, of course, you may actually fail at the end of that 3 weeks, but you're still approaching a limit. then on the 4th week you deload to a much lighter weight, say 70%, and maybe even increase reps.

Training to failure means training until you cannot complete another rep. You have to do that every now and then, but if you do that every workout, you won't make gains and can possibly hurt yourself.

that depends. i had a lot more injury when i worked in a low rep range often. but when i switched to a rest-pause scheme that uses a light weight range, but higher reps, i didn't stay injured and started making gains again. and by the way, on that rest-pause scheme, you go to failure every single set, with short rests between sets. the key for me seemed to be that the weight is just heavy enough to promote hypertrophy, yet not so heavy that it causes injury.

This is similar to the guy at the gym who goes "I come here to bench press every day! How come I'm not making any gains? :( "

yeah, every day doesn't allow for recovery. that's a recipe for failure. i found i did well with a frequency of once every 5 days. at most, you shouldn't train one exercise hard more than 3X/week.

Still waiting for what? Find me a source that says what you are saying (that you should train to your max all the time and injuries are to be proud of) and I'll give you some number, and then you'll say you don't believe me, and then I'll say I don't care, and you'll say I don't really train, and I'll say you have no idea what you are talking about.

Sound about right to you?

whatever. why don't you go find a forum where people who train competitively hang out, and do a poll. ask them if they've never been injured. i suppose you could train and never get injured, but i don't think you would be competitive, either.

 

[WarPhalange]

that depends. i had a lot more injury when i worked in a low rep range often. but when i switched to a rest-pause scheme that uses a light weight range, but higher reps, i didn't stay injured and started making gains again. and by the way, on that rest-pause scheme, you go to failure every single set, with short rests between sets. the key for me seemed to be that the weight is just heavy enough to promote hypertrophy, yet not so heavy that it causes injury.

I thought we were talking about strength/power gain and not muscle mass gain?

Yes, lower weight, higher rep is better suited for bodybuilding and will be inherently safer since you're using a smaller weight.

yeah, every day doesn't allow for recovery. that's a recipe for failure. i found i did well with a frequency of once every 5 days. at most, you shouldn't train one exercise hard more than 3X/week.

How often you train depends on how hard you train. Rule of thumb is minimum 48 hours in between workouts of the same muscle group. The harder you train, the more time out you need. But training harder doesn't always give you more gains. If you train only once a week really hard, you're not going to improve as well as if you trained twice or even 3 times a week, but with less intensity.

whatever. why don't you go find a forum where people who train competitively hang out, and do a poll. ask them if they've never been injured. i suppose you could train and never get injured, but i don't think you would be competitive, either.

You're confusing "not wanting to get injured, but it happening anyway" with "training without regard for injury"

You said powerlifters lift sooooo hard that they rip the meat off their bones and that injuries are like a badge of honor for them. That's not the same as saying "People get injured sometimes."

Make up your mind. Nobody wants to get injured and everybody who does wishes they didn't. Nobody walks around with a smile on his face after he tears a muscle. If you are training with a reasonable routine, then you shouldn't get injured unless there is an accident. If you go too high on your weight, then yeah, you're asking for trouble.

 

[binzing]

Wheres the opening dialogue from? I don't see anyone on here using "noob" other than jokingly.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

This discussion had drifted off-topic and was moved from another thread.
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=86471

 

[binzing]

Ah, I figured as much after reading what's here so far. Don't think its too far off from a banning, I suppose.

 

[Proton Soup]

I thought we were talking about strength/power gain and not muscle mass gain?

Yes, lower weight, higher rep is better suited for bodybuilding and will be inherently safer since you're using a smaller weight.

if you want to keep getting stronger, you have to gain muscle mass. you can only go so far with neural gains.

How often you train depends on how hard you train. Rule of thumb is minimum 48 hours in between workouts of the same muscle group. The harder you train, the more time out you need. But training harder doesn't always give you more gains. If you train only once a week really hard, you're not going to improve as well as if you trained twice or even 3 times a week, but with less intensity.

like i said, i found that every 5 days was close to ideal for the intensity i was training at. if i wanted to train 3X/wk i'd have to back down quite a bit. a lot of this is individual and varies by how long you've been training.

You're confusing "not wanting to get injured, but it happening anyway" with "training without regard for injury"

no, I'm not. I've conversed with enough people over time to realize that getting injured is common, even among people that have formal athletic training.

You said powerlifters lift sooooo hard that they rip the meat off their bones and that injuries are like a badge of honor for them. That's not the same as saying "People get injured sometimes."

someone else said it was a badge of honor, i never said that. I'm just saying that it happens more often than you might think. i believe what i did say is that muscle tears are pretty common. maybe that is what you're confused about. not every tear is a complete rupture. usually, they're pretty benign. you see a little bruising and that's it, as i mentioned.

Make up your mind. Nobody wants to get injured and everybody who does wishes they didn't. Nobody walks around with a smile on his face after he tears a muscle. If you are training with a reasonable routine, then you shouldn't get injured unless there is an accident. If you go too high on your weight, then yeah, you're asking for trouble.

i see now that you're confused. it's not even always painful, even if somebody forgets to lock their elbows on a deadlift and pulls the muscle off the bone (a bone-headed mistake, mind you, but it does happen, if somewhat rarely).

besides, you're talking about powerlifting here, which is a competitive sport, and naturally involves lifting weight that is "too high". that is the whole point of powerlifting.

 

[WarPhalange]

if you want to keep getting stronger, you have to gain muscle mass. you can only go so far with neural gains.

Mass doesn't always = strength. Most of those power lifters also have a nice layer of fat around them, simply because they'd rather make sure to get enough calories and protein than to count calories or risk being undernourished.

Look at Lamar Grant, he was 130 something and dead lifted 661lbs. I couldn't find how tall he was at the time, but 130 is still pretty skinny.

http://www.usaplnationals.com/2003MoState/images/lewisSQ_large.jpg/img][/URL]

You can't tell me that's all muscle.

[quote]like i said, i found that every 5 days was close to ideal for the intensity i was training at. if i wanted to train 3X/wk i'd have to back down quite a bit. a lot of this is individual and varies by how long you've been training.[/quote]

No argument there.

[quote]no, I'm not. I've conversed with enough people over time to realize that getting injured is common, even among people that have formal athletic training.[/quote]

Yes, but you made it sound like they were training so hard because they didn't care about getting injured, when in reality the injuries happen as accidents.

A bonehead move is to put on 50lbs more than you did last time because you think you're not getting gains fast enough.

But if you're training smart, the risk of injury goes down substantially. And as far as I know, everybody with half a brain tries to avoid injuries.


[quote]someone else said it was a badge of honor, i never said that.[/quote]

Someone else is very stupid, then. Sorry that I attributed it to you.

[quote] I'm just saying that it happens more often than you might think. i believe what i did say is that muscle tears are pretty common. maybe that is what you're confused about. not every tear is a complete rupture. usually, they're pretty benign. you see a little bruising and that's it, as i mentioned.[/quote]

I know it can happen often. You're lifting heavy objects. I'm just saying nobody is going to substantially increase their risk of getting injured by going as hard as they can every single time.



[quote]i see now that you're confused. it's not even always painful, even if somebody forgets to lock their elbows on a deadlift and pulls the muscle off the bone (a bone-headed mistake, mind you, but it does happen, if somewhat rarely).[/quote]

Oh yeah. Forgetting to relax your biceps on a dead lift is always fun.

[quote]besides, you're talking about powerlifting here, which is a competitive sport, and naturally involves lifting weight that is "too high". that is the whole point of powerlifting.[/QUOTE]

You compete balls to the wall, sure, but you train just hard enough that you avoid injury. Look at all these MMA fighters. They get injured all the time, since that's the point of the sport. But if you see them train, they use pads, they don't go 100%, and they make sure not to exceed their limits, because an injury can really set you back.

 

[Proton Soup]

Mass doesn't always = strength. Most of those power lifters also have a nice layer of fat around them, simply because they'd rather make sure to get enough calories and protein than to count calories or risk being undernourished.

no, it doesn't always equal strength, but it is the potential for strength. that's why i mentioned CNS gains. at some point, you're going to hit your strength limit for a set amount of muscle mass and will have to add more mass to gain strength.

Look at Lamar Grant, he was 130 something and dead lifted 661lbs. I couldn't find how tall he was at the time, but 130 is still pretty skinny.

Lamar also has maybe the longest arms of any deadlifter, ever. a deadlift for him is like a rack lift for normal people. he is strong, but he also was gifted with mechanical leverages that most people do not have.

http://www.usaplnationals.com/2003MoState/images/lewisSQ_large.jpg

You can't tell me that's all muscle.

nope, but i can tell you that the fat guys carry more muscle than the skinny guys. that's one of the reasons they eat so much. the real trick is trying to hold onto that muscle as you diet down. the http://www.ironmagazine.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=356", you'll see that he actually looks like a bodybuilder under all that blubber.

No argument there.
Yes, but you made it sound like they were training so hard because they didn't care about getting injured, when in reality the injuries happen as accidents.

i think we may just have to disagree here. it's kind of hard to know where your limits are until you've crossed them.

A bonehead move is to put on 50lbs more than you did last time because you think you're not getting gains fast enough.

yeah, depending on what you're doing, that could be pretty foolish.

But if you're training smart, the risk of injury goes down substantially. And as far as I know, everybody with half a brain tries to avoid injuries.

no argument there.

Someone else is very stupid, then. Sorry that I attributed it to you.

I know it can happen often. You're lifting heavy objects. I'm just saying nobody is going to substantially increase their risk of getting injured by going as hard as they can every single time.

Oh yeah. Forgetting to relax your biceps on a dead lift is always fun.

better yet, just concentrate on activating your triceps, especially if you're using a mixed grip. i don't think I've ever tried to row it up with double overhand.

You compete balls to the wall, sure, but you train just hard enough that you avoid injury. Look at all these MMA fighters. They get injured all the time, since that's the point of the sport. But if you see them train, they use pads, they don't go 100%, and they make sure not to exceed their limits, because an injury can really set you back.

MMA is not a 100% strength sport, so they don't need to go 100% on weights. skill and conditioning are more important.

 

[WarPhalange]

I meant 100% in the ring when they are practicing. They still don't pound on each other.

My deadlift grip is/was kind of weird. At first I could only do it double overhand. Nothing else felt right. I had to take a break for a while, and when I came back to it, only mixed grip felt right and it's been like that ever since. I don't get why.

 

[gravenewworld]

When I dead lift how come I don't feel any burn in my hammys? I try to do them as correct as possible, but my hamstrings never feel the work out. What am I doing wrong? The next day my lower back is never sore, so I know I am not putting stress on my lower back. I always try to maintain a neutral spine.

 

[Hootenanny]

When I dead lift how come I don't feel any burn in my hammys? I try to do them as correct as possible, but my hamstrings never feel the work out. What am I doing wrong? The next day my lower back is never sore, so I know I am not putting stress on my lower back. I always try to maintain a neutral spine.

Have you tried Romanian Dead-lifts? You won't need as much weight as you would for standard dead-lifts and you should feel it more in your hamstrings. However, you need to be careful that you don't try to go outside your range and keep strict form.

 

[gravenewworld]

Have you tried Romanian Dead-lifts? You won't need as much weight as you would for standard dead-lifts and you should feel it more in your hamstrings. However, you need to be careful that you don't try to go outside your range and keep strict form.

How do you do those?

 

[Hootenanny]

How do you do those?

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/issa63.htm" and scroll down to the section "How To Perform The RDL (Romanian Deadlift)".

 

[gravenewworld]

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/issa63.htm" and scroll down to the section "How To Perform The RDL (Romanian Deadlift)".

I'll have to give 'em a try. Thanks.

 

[JasonRox]

What was the argument all about?

I do have to say that the biggest mistakes in the gym is bad form, and the inability to do more weight. Those are the two biggest faults.

 

[Proton Soup]

When I dead lift how come I don't feel any burn in my hammys? I try to do them as correct as possible, but my hamstrings never feel the work out. What am I doing wrong? The next day my lower back is never sore, so I know I am not putting stress on my lower back. I always try to maintain a neutral spine.

soreness or burn isn't always a good indicator. lack of soreness often simply means that you are well-adapted to that exercise. many exercises do not make me sore at all unless I've been on a layoff for a while.

i'm not even sure i'd be trying to get soreness in the lower back. that's the sort of thing that tends to put me out of commission for a while. mostly, deadlift hits my hams, glutes, and traps, but if you add some weight, you may notice you feel it everywhere, even places like deltoids.

another thing, if you've got your feet pointing straight ahead, you may want to angle them out a few degrees.

 

[OAQfirst]

another thing, if you've got your feet pointing straight ahead, you may want to angle them out a few degrees.

Why?

 

[Proton Soup]

Why?

i can't remember if it's supposed to increase glute or hamstring activation, but it should make for a stronger pull.

 

[Moonbear]

i can't remember if it's supposed to increase glute or hamstring activation, but it should make for a stronger pull.

I'd suggest that rather than attempting to hand out generic advice here, instead one recommend that people seek out the advice of a certified trainer or someone with an exercise physiology or related degree. Individual anatomical differences can necessitate adjustments to one's form to accomplish the same task, or even disqualify certain exercises as unsafe for some people. There is no way to determine this without actually looking at a person and identifying their physical structure.

 

[Proton Soup]

I'd suggest that rather than attempting to hand out generic advice here, instead one recommend that people seek out the advice of a certified trainer or someone with an exercise physiology or related degree. Individual anatomical differences can necessitate adjustments to one's form to accomplish the same task, or even disqualify certain exercises as unsafe for some people. There is no way to determine this without actually looking at a person and identifying their physical structure.

it's not a terribly technical lift like some of the olympic lifts, but here's some stuff from an expert:

basic setup for a conventional deadlift stance:

and some more technical discussion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vue17RjRhwM&feature=related

 

[Hootenanny]

soreness or burn isn't always a good indicator. lack of soreness often simply means that you are well-adapted to that exercise. many exercises do not make me sore at all unless I've been on a layoff for a while.

Soreness and burn and two totally different phenomena. Burn is the 'burning sensation' that you feel whilst or immediately after completing an exercise. Muscle 'burn' indicates muscle fatigue, which is what you should be aiming for if your doing weight-lifting.

Soreness, particularly delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS), is the ache you feel after you have completed your work-out; or in the case of DOMS between one and four days later. This soreness indicates that you have significantly broken down the muscle fibres during your workout and that the fibres are beginning to repair themselves during the process of muscle hypertrophy. DOMS is a common symtopom if you are following an intensive training regime. However, if the muscle soreness persists for more than a few days, it can indicate over-training and is one of the early indicators of 'burn-out'.

i'm not even sure i'd be trying to get soreness in the lower back. that's the sort of thing that tends to put me out of commission for a while. mostly, deadlift hits my hams, glutes, and traps, but if you add some weight, you may notice you feel it everywhere, even places like deltoids.

The OP didn't say that they wanted to feel stress in their lower back, they simply stated that they weren't. That said, that I agree that the dead-lift is an excellent exercise and recruits many different muscle groups, particularly the core stability muscles if one keeps strict form.

another thing, if you've got your feet pointing straight ahead, you may want to angle them out a few degrees.

I have to agree with Moonbear here, what works best for you may not work for everyone else. Foot placement in particular, is highly individualised and depends not only on your skeletal structure, but also your musculature. If you find that you perform many of your exercises or walk with your feet slightly abducted it can be a sign of weakness in your external hip rotators (gluteus medius).

 

[Moonbear]

it's not a terribly technical lift like some of the olympic lifts, but here's some stuff from an expert:

basic setup for a conventional deadlift stance:

and some more technical discussion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vue17RjRhwM&feature=related

You've completely missed my point that generic advice does NOT work for everyone. There is a range of normal anatomical variation that needs to be taken into account, and a properly certified trainer or person with an appropriate degree can understand that and suggest safe adaptations to exercises. And, they can also watch to make sure you do it right. The biggest mistakes in gyms are from people who never use a trainer and just assume they can do what they see other people doing.

For example, my knees are not aligned quite right. All those years of gym teachers instructing to do exercises with my toes pointed straight up have probably taken several years off the lifespan of my knees before I'm going to need a knee replacement. Any exercises I do for my thigh or leg muscles NEEDS to take this into account. If I were to just follow the instructions on a video, I'd be causing major harm to my knees. I have the anatomical knowledge to make the needed adjustments, but most people don't. And, I still ask one of the exercise physiologists to watch my form to make sure I'm doing what I think I'm doing and help me make minor adjustments.

 

[Proton Soup]

Soreness and burn and two totally different phenomena. Burn is the 'burning sensation' that you feel whilst or immediately after completing an exercise. Muscle 'burn' indicates muscle fatigue, which is what you should be aiming for if your doing weight-lifting.

not everyone trains to get the "burn". lactic acid accumulation something that tends to happen with higher rep schemes. if you're training for strength, you may not "feel the burn". and for something like deadlift, where you're lifting heavy, i think it's a very bad idea to suggest. fatigue and maintaining a rigid spine do not go together very well. save that type of training for running or cycling.

Soreness, particularly delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS), is the ache you feel after you have completed your work-out; or in the case of DOMS between one and four days later. This soreness indicates that you have significantly broken down the muscle fibres during your workout and that the fibres are beginning to repair themselves during the process of muscle hypertrophy. DOMS is a common symtopom if you are following an intensive training regime. However, if the muscle soreness persists for more than a few days, it can indicate over-training and is one of the early indicators of 'burn-out'.

The OP didn't say that they wanted to feel stress in their lower back, they simply stated that they weren't. That said, that I agree that the dead-lift is an excellent exercise and recruits many different muscle groups, particularly the core stability muscles if one keeps strict form.

I have to agree with Moonbear here, what works best for you may not work for everyone else. Foot placement in particular, is highly individualised and depends not only on your skeletal structure, but also your musculature. If you find that you perform many of your exercises or walk with your feet slightly abducted it can be a sign of weakness in your external hip rotators (gluteus medius).

it could mean that one has tight piriformis muscles if you walk that way normally. that's really got not much to do with having a slight angle out when you deadlift and squat, tho.

 

[Hootenanny]

not everyone trains to get the "burn". lactic acid accumulation something that tends to happen with higher rep schemes. if you're training for strength, you may not "feel the burn". and for something like deadlift, where you're lifting heavy, i think it's a very bad idea to suggest. fatigue and maintaining a rigid spine do not go together very well. save that type of training for running or cycling.

True, at lower repetitions one may not feel the burn, but I have to disagree that when lifting heavy you should not fatigue your muscles. The whole idea of weight-training is to fatigue your muscles - if you don't break down the muscle fibres, they will never hypertrophy. There are only a few exercise where it is dangerous to go to complete failure, back-squats being one of them. Fatiguing your muscles doesn't mean that you have to loose your form, it is perfectly possible to go to complete failure whilst keeping strict form and in the case of dead-lift there is no reason why you can't go to complete failure, provided that you do keep strict form. Once you've reached failure, all you need do is drop the bar.

it could mean that one has tight piriformis muscles if you walk that way normally. that's really got not much to do with having a slight angle out when you deadlift and squat, tho.

Erm... the piriformis is one of the hip rotators? But that's beside the point, my point was exactly the same as Moonbears - suggesting that someone modify their form based solely on your own experiences is a bad idea.

 

[Proton Soup]

You've completely missed my point that generic advice does NOT work for everyone. There is a range of normal anatomical variation that needs to be taken into account, and a properly certified trainer or person with an appropriate degree can understand that and suggest safe adaptations to exercises. And, they can also watch to make sure you do it right. The biggest mistakes in gyms are from people who never use a trainer and just assume they can do what they see other people doing.

For example, my knees are not aligned quite right. All those years of gym teachers instructing to do exercises with my toes pointed straight up have probably taken several years off the lifespan of my knees before I'm going to need a knee replacement. Any exercises I do for my thigh or leg muscles NEEDS to take this into account. If I were to just follow the instructions on a video, I'd be causing major harm to my knees. I have the anatomical knowledge to make the needed adjustments, but most people don't. And, I still ask one of the exercise physiologists to watch my form to make sure I'm doing what I think I'm doing and help me make minor adjustments.

OK, so you're broken, i get that. the suggestion was simply to try it without the toes pointing straight up. he'll either get more hamstring activation or not, it's simply an experiment. your knee problems may also have nothing at all to do with this. you've got an injury and you're working around it.

and the instructions by rippetoe are taking variation into account. some people with longer legs simply won't be able to get their butt down as far before the shins touch the bar, and this will limit how much they can lift in a conventional style.

 

[Proton Soup]

True, at lower repetitions one may not feel the burn, but I have to disagree that when lifting heavy you should not fatigue your muscles. The whole idea of weight-training is to fatigue your muscles - if you don't break down the muscle fibres, they will never hypertrophy. There are only a few exercise where it is dangerous to go to complete failure, back-squats being one of them. Fatiguing your muscles doesn't mean that you have to loose your form, it is perfectly possible to go to complete failure whilst keeping strict form and in the case of dead-lift there is no reason why you can't go to complete failure, provided that you do keep strict form. Once you've reached failure, all you need do is drop the bar.

no, this is completely wrong. it's not simply lactic acid buildup that causes or indicates break down of muscle fibers. that burn is indicating fuel usage, not microtrauma to the muscle fiber.

 

[Hootenanny]

no, this is completely wrong. it's not simply lactic acid buildup that causes or indicates break down of muscle fibers. that burn is indicating fuel usage, not microtrauma to the muscle fiber.

I never said that the burn was related to muscle breakdown (see my earlier posts). The comment regarding muscle fibre breakdown and failure was in reference to your comment regarding fatigue heavy weight. Perhaps I should have used a full stop rather than a comma.

 

[Moonbear]

OK, so you're broken, i get that. the suggestion was simply to try it without the toes pointing straight up. he'll either get more hamstring activation or not, it's simply an experiment. your knee problems may also have nothing at all to do with this. you've got an injury and you're working around it.

No, I'm not "broken." This is the natural way my body has formed...since birth. And, you DON'T want to experiment with form. You want to get a proper evaluation and do it right from the start. Experimentation is how one ends up with injuries! Please don't recommend irresponsible activities here!

You're also incorrect to just lump together actions of the "glutes" as you put it. There are THREE gluteal muscles, the gluteus maximus, gluteus medius, and gluteus minimus. They do NOT all have the same functions...in fact, the fibers of those muscles run in completely different directions. The gluteus maximums extends the thigh and laterally rotates it. By contrast, the gluteus medius and minimus muscles medially rotate the thigh. These are OPPOSING functions of those muscles.

The piriformis is a lateral rotator and only functions in abduction if the thigh is already flexed at the hip, along with the gemelli and obturator internus muscles. However, the gluteus medius is the stronger abductor.

And to lump all the hamstring muscles together is also inaccurate. Turning one's leg either medially or laterally would work different ones of the hamstring muscles, preferentially, since they insert on either side of the leg below the knee. I would not recommend over-exerting one preferentially to the others, because they do have their greatest strength as a group.

Consider this official caution not to continue recommending specific exercises and techniques in lieu of a proper trainer present, because that is more likely to get someone injured than to help.

 

[Proton Soup]

very well, but i am curious. are you a runner?

 

[Moonbear]

very well, but i am curious. are you a runner?

No. I'm an anatomy professor. I teach the exercise physiologists, occupational therapists, physical therapists, med student and nursing students who will patch back together the weight lifters who think they can do it on their own without any advice or help. Even knowing what I know, I still know I need a pair of eyes on me when weight lifting to ensure my form is correct when doing something new...and even to spot check on something old just in case.