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nobahar
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Off-topic discussion from "Why talk about 1967 borders?"
I apologise to Hurkyl in advance for not answering your question! Instead I’d like to address some points made by Mege.
A couple of citations appear more than once, as I feel they demonstarte more than one point, and the same point reoccurs.
The invasion and occupation of all of Palestine, you mean? Whilst building illegal settlements (http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/131/1671.pdf). That hardly constitutes an act of defence. In fact, it’s the exact opposite, illegal settlement building is a direct act of aggression. Israel has already conquered Palestinian land, and so it does not require shelling to displace people, they can merely knock down Palestinian villages and build settlements on Palestinian land (http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/MDE15/033/2004 ;http://www.hrw.org/en/reports/2004/10/17/razing-rafah-0).
Firstly, returning Palestinian land to the Palestinians is not a ‘punishment’ to Israel, it is returning the land to whom it belongs. How can it possibly be a ‘punishment’ to Israel?, it’s not Israel’s land.
Let’s say Israel was a democracy, does that justify war crimes, the invasion of Palestine, the occupation of Palestine, the building of illegal settlements (http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/illegal-israeli-settlement-plans-threaten-palestinian-human-rights-2010-10-15; http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/131/1671.pdf) and the treatment of Palestinians as sub-human (http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/country,,UNCHR,,PSE,4562d8cf2,4267b5d14,0.html; http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/israel-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-2010)? Does Democracy justify such actions? If so, then the US/Britain/[insert Democratic country here] can do what it likes around the world; commit genocide if it likes, and the response would be: “Hey, it’s justified, we are a democracy!”.
Actually, there is systemic state discrimination and human rights abuses; it has been going on for a long time (http://www.hrw.org/node/95113). Including war crimes and attempts to inflict purposeful suffering on Palestinians. If Israel considered the Palestinians equal, would they really drop white phosphorous on Gaza, and use Palestinian children to carry out dangerous tasks, and use Palestinians, including children, as human shields? (http://www.amnesty.org/en/for-media/press-releases/israeloccupied-palestinian-territories-israel039s-use-white-phosphorus-a; http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/01/10/israel-stop-unlawful-use-white-phosphorus-gaza; http://www.hrw.org/en/node/81726/section/6; http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/specialsession/9/docs/UNFFMGC_Report.pdf; http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/israel-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-2010; http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/MDE15/033/2004 ).
Here I agree with you. A number of the oppressive Islamic states are allies to the West. Why would the west care that they are oppressive?
Freedoms? See above.
I’m glad you see it as an irrationality. I am going to refer to Judaism here purely because you seem to consider ‘Judeo-Christian culture’ as consistent with Western culture, I don’t understand this and I don’t think (and I hope it’s not) true. Culture is a fairly wide ranging term but can include perceptions of morality, equality, etc. For purposes of supporting my opinion, here is a tiny portion of aspects of Judaism which I believe to be incongruous with current perceptions of morality held by many people around the world (not just ‘the West’, as human rights organisations in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and so on demonstrate):
Attitudes towards homosexuality: “And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them” Leviticus 20:13. They really dislike homosexuality, so much so that a daughter is a nice offering instead: Judges 19: 16-30 A nice bit on slavery: Leviticus 25: 44-46; and slavery and murder: Deuteronomy 20:10-16. All whilst being thankful everyday for not being a woman (I’m referring to the morning blessings), unless you are a women, which is then unfortunate.
I apologise to Hurkyl in advance for not answering your question! Instead I’d like to address some points made by Mege.
A couple of citations appear more than once, as I feel they demonstarte more than one point, and the same point reoccurs.
mege said:Israel was attacked, retaliated, and expanded to a defensible position.
The invasion and occupation of all of Palestine, you mean? Whilst building illegal settlements (http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/131/1671.pdf). That hardly constitutes an act of defence. In fact, it’s the exact opposite, illegal settlement building is a direct act of aggression. Israel has already conquered Palestinian land, and so it does not require shelling to displace people, they can merely knock down Palestinian villages and build settlements on Palestinian land (http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/MDE15/033/2004 ;http://www.hrw.org/en/reports/2004/10/17/razing-rafah-0).
mege said:Even if Israel did break international law (ignoring the outcome of the law...), should the recourse really be to punish them or are there other meritous things to consider?
Firstly, returning Palestinian land to the Palestinians is not a ‘punishment’ to Israel, it is returning the land to whom it belongs. How can it possibly be a ‘punishment’ to Israel?, it’s not Israel’s land.
mege said:(like Israel being ranked higher in freedoms than the surrounding countries).
Let’s say Israel was a democracy, does that justify war crimes, the invasion of Palestine, the occupation of Palestine, the building of illegal settlements (http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/illegal-israeli-settlement-plans-threaten-palestinian-human-rights-2010-10-15; http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/131/1671.pdf) and the treatment of Palestinians as sub-human (http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/country,,UNCHR,,PSE,4562d8cf2,4267b5d14,0.html; http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/israel-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-2010)? Does Democracy justify such actions? If so, then the US/Britain/[insert Democratic country here] can do what it likes around the world; commit genocide if it likes, and the response would be: “Hey, it’s justified, we are a democracy!”.
mege said:On the beacon of light: I see most other Middle Eastern countries as being very oppressed where Israel has a significant amount of freedoms. They're not perfect by any stretch, but there is no systemic state discrimination against social groups like in Syria or Iran (where capital punishment isn't a big deal for say rejecting Islam).
Actually, there is systemic state discrimination and human rights abuses; it has been going on for a long time (http://www.hrw.org/node/95113). Including war crimes and attempts to inflict purposeful suffering on Palestinians. If Israel considered the Palestinians equal, would they really drop white phosphorous on Gaza, and use Palestinian children to carry out dangerous tasks, and use Palestinians, including children, as human shields? (http://www.amnesty.org/en/for-media/press-releases/israeloccupied-palestinian-territories-israel039s-use-white-phosphorus-a; http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/01/10/israel-stop-unlawful-use-white-phosphorus-gaza; http://www.hrw.org/en/node/81726/section/6; http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/specialsession/9/docs/UNFFMGC_Report.pdf; http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/israel-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-2010; http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/MDE15/033/2004 ).
mege said:I think it's a contradiction in policy that we're willing to threaten sanctions on China for 'human rights violations' but yet turn a blind eye to the lack of gender and religious equality in Islamic states.
Here I agree with you. A number of the oppressive Islamic states are allies to the West. Why would the west care that they are oppressive?
mege said:You can call me biased if you want, but I have zero personal stake in the matter except as a point of social pride in seeing another country with similar freedoms to our own be successful.
Freedoms? See above.
mege said:The only irrationality that I may present is exceptionalism of Judeo-Christian/Western culture (as opposed to Islamic/Arab culture in this case).
I’m glad you see it as an irrationality. I am going to refer to Judaism here purely because you seem to consider ‘Judeo-Christian culture’ as consistent with Western culture, I don’t understand this and I don’t think (and I hope it’s not) true. Culture is a fairly wide ranging term but can include perceptions of morality, equality, etc. For purposes of supporting my opinion, here is a tiny portion of aspects of Judaism which I believe to be incongruous with current perceptions of morality held by many people around the world (not just ‘the West’, as human rights organisations in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and so on demonstrate):
Attitudes towards homosexuality: “And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them” Leviticus 20:13. They really dislike homosexuality, so much so that a daughter is a nice offering instead: Judges 19: 16-30 A nice bit on slavery: Leviticus 25: 44-46; and slavery and murder: Deuteronomy 20:10-16. All whilst being thankful everyday for not being a woman (I’m referring to the morning blessings), unless you are a women, which is then unfortunate.
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