Throughout all the cultures in the world there is the concept of spirits

[Jim Kata]

Throughout all the cultures in the world there is the concept of spirits, angels, fairies, ghost, gnomes, totems etc. A dismissive view is that people who have seen these things are crazy, but a more accepting view is that people have actually seen such things. I myself have had sleep paralysis before and have seen an incubus, and have had the feeling of astral projection while lying in bed. I know these are figments of my imagination, but by seeing them they might as well be real since perception is a major part of reality. My question is do psychologist have an idea of what these things represent, and why they seem to be so universal across all cultures?

 

[lisab]

Joseph Campbell wrote a lot about common themes found in myths from cultures all over the world. I've only read one or two of his books, and that was a long time ago, so I don't remember much of it. But if you're interested in this topic, I recommend his books. He discusses the common human psychological reasons he believes explain why these themes are so widespread.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Campbell

 

[Dotini]

My question is do psychologist have an idea of what these things represent, and why they seem to be so universal across all cultures?

Joseph Campbell wrote a lot about common themes found in myths from cultures all over the world...
...He discusses the common human psychological reasons he believes explain why these themes are so widespread.

In keeping with the universal mythology theme, the noted psychologist Carl Jung wrote extensively on the subject of universal archetypes, even touching on the subject of UFO's.

"In his earlier work, Jung tried to link the archetypes to heredity and regarded them as instinctual. We are born with these patterns which structure our imagination and make it distinctly human. Archetypes are thus very closely linked to our bodies. In his later work, Jung was convinced that the archetypes are psychoid, that is, "they shape matter (nature) as well as mind (psyche)" (Houston Smith, Forgotten Truth, 40). In other words, archetypes are elemental forces which play a vital role in the creation of the world and of the human mind itself. The ancients called them elemental spirits."
http://www.iloveulove.com/psychology/jung/jungarchetypes.htm

For a very sympathetic discussion of "spirits, angels, fairies, ghost, gnomes, totems" across all times and cultures, please consult Jacques Vallee's cult classic, "Passport to Magonia", or Patrick Harpur's lesser known but very skillful, "Daimonic Reality - Understanding Otherworld Encounters".

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

 

[Jim Kata]

Thank you for the reading suggestions guys. I will definitely look into it.

 

[alt]

Throughout all the cultures in the world there is the concept of spirits, angels, fairies, ghost, gnomes, totems etc. A dismissive view is that people who have seen these things are crazy, but a more accepting view is that people have actually seen such things. I myself have had sleep paralysis before and have seen an incubus, and have had the feeling of astral projection while lying in bed. I know these are figments of my imagination, but by seeing them they might as well be real since perception is a major part of reality. My question is do psychologist have an idea of what these things represent, and why they seem to be so universal across all cultures?

but by seeing them they might as well be real since perception is a major part of reality

Would you apply the same measure though, to everything anyone can dream or hallucinate or imagine ? The UFO's of a ufology group ? Manifestations of the Virgin Mary at Fatima ? Flying pink elephants of a drug tripper ? Or the fairies at the bottom of the garden of a 17th century schoolgirl ?

That would broaden the concept of reality and then some !

 

[zoobyshoe]

but by seeing them they might as well be real since perception is a major part of reality

Would you apply the same measure though, to everything anyone can dream or hallucinate or imagine ? The UFO's of a ufology group ? Manifestations of the Virgin Mary at Fatima ? Flying pink elephants of a drug tripper ? Or the fairies at the bottom of the garden of a 17th century schoolgirl ?

That would broaden the concept of reality and then some !

I don't think he expressed it perfectly eloquently, but I think I know what he meant. I also had a terrifying hallucination during sleep paralysis once, and the fact is that, while it's happening there is no distinguishing it from reality. I didn't start to question it until the hallucination ended and I could move again.

 

[MarcoD]

I think some posts gave good enough references where you can find explanations of these phenomena.

Personally, I don't think you really need that elaborate reasoning to understand the need for people to project or explain the world in terms of familiar concepts.

Moreover, to call people crazy who see spirits is the same as calling people who believe in a deity crazy. It's irrational but human.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I don't think he expressed it perfectly eloquently, but I think I know what he meant. I also had a terrifying hallucination during sleep paralysis once, and the fact is that, while it's happening there is no distinguishing it from reality. I didn't start to question it until the hallucination ended and I could move again.

I've suffered from sleep paralysis and nightmares quite a bit to the extent where now if I "wake up" paralysed it doesn't bother me because I know it's not real and will end soon. Just the other week I "woke up" paralysed whilst dreaming that hands were reaching over from the sides of the bed and dragging me. I actually felt myself slide towards the edge of a bed with a hand round my neck. However being so used to this I simply relaxed and waited, I even found the idea of falling off the bed quite comical because if that didn't trick my body into movement nothing would. After a short time the hands disappeared and I could move again. No harm done, I just went back to sleep.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I've suffered from sleep paralysis and nightmares quite a bit to the extent where now if I "wake up" paralysed it doesn't bother me because I know it's not real and will end soon. Just the other week I "woke up" paralysed whilst dreaming that hands were reaching over from the sides of the bed and dragging me. I actually felt myself slide towards the edge of a bed with a hand round my neck. However being so used to this I simply relaxed and waited, I even found the idea of falling off the bed quite comical because if that didn't trick my body into movement nothing would. After a short time the hands disappeared and I could move again. No harm done, I just went back to sleep.

Wow, that's incredible! I suppose if anything like that happens often enough you'd learn to roll with it. I've only had sleep paralysis 4 times that I remember. Twice there was no accompanying hallucination. The third time the hallucination was neutral. The forth time was the terrifying one. I'll be very happy if I never have that experience again. I felt profoundly disturbed by it for about three days afterward.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Wow, that's incredible! I suppose if anything like that happens often enough you'd learn to roll with it. I've only had sleep paralysis 4 times that I remember. Twice there was no accompanying hallucination. The third time the hallucination was neutral. The forth time was the terrifying one. I'll be very happy if I never have that experience again. I felt profoundly disturbed by it for about three days afterward.

Yeah the first time I ever had it there was no hallucination. That made it worse because I was a teenager and was so disturbed by it I thought I had some sort of degenerative disease, thankfully I googled and found out that it's a fairly common thing.

I hope you never have get it again, nor ever have to get used to it!

 

[alt]

I don't think he expressed it perfectly eloquently, but I think I know what he meant. I also had a terrifying hallucination during sleep paralysis once, and the fact is that, while it's happening there is no distinguishing it from reality. I didn't start to question it until the hallucination ended and I could move again.

Yes, I understand what the OP meant.

But I took issue with his ..

but by seeing them they might as well be real since perception is a major part of reality


I think that's a bit of a stretch to say they might as well be real. If you accept that, you can also say that dreams and acid trips might as well be real. But they are not.

Also I note you said you eventually questioned your experience as stated above, and determined that it was a hallucination - last I heard, hallucinations are not real.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Yes, I understand what the OP meant.

But I took issue with his ..

but by seeing them they might as well be real since perception is a major part of reality


I think that's a bit of a stretch to say they might as well be real. If you accept that, you can also say that dreams and acid trips might as well be real. But they are not.

Also I note you said you eventually questioned your experience as stated above, and determined that it was a hallucination - last I heard, hallucinations are not real.

I'm not sure the OP is suggesting we should regard them as real when we're not hallucinating. The point is that they might as well be real during the episode.

When I had my terrifying one back in the 80's there was no google, and no one I told about them had ever heard of such a thing. I hoped it had just been some sort of perversely vivid nightmare, but I had no reassurance it was merely that. To the extent it psychologically disturbed me, it might as well have been real.

 

[Jim Kata]

Would you apply the same measure though, to everything anyone can dream or hallucinate or imagine ?

This is exactly my point. In my definition of reality there is room for things that can not be measured. I'm not saying these things are physical manifestations. I'm saying just because something is imagined or hallucinated does not mean it is of no value. If you were to have a spiritual experience while on ayahuasca that changed your perception of the world, would you trivialize it because it wan't "measurably real"? I don't know what value to place on dreams or hallucinations, but since we spend one third of our lives asleep and a good portion of that dreaming, I think we should place some value on these things. In the end, all we will have of our lives is our memories and other thoughts stored in our mind.

 

[alt]

This is exactly my point. In my definition of reality there is room for things that can not be measured. I'm not saying these things are physical manifestations. I'm saying just because something is imagined or hallucinated does not mean it is of no value.

Sure - I agree. A great idea for instance, has great value. Your characterisation of a dream or a hallucination as "might as well be real" however, is not the same as it having some degree of value. But I think we're getting semantic now, and I do undertand what you're saying.

If you were to have a spiritual experience while on ayahuasca that changed your perception of the world, would you trivialize it because it wan't "measurably real"?

No, I would certainly not trivialise it. I've had some very profound inward experiences, and profitable ideas (and some bummers, too).

I don't know what value to place on dreams or hallucinations, but since we spend one third of our lives asleep and a good portion of that dreaming, I think we should place some value on these things. In the end, all we will have of our lives is our memories and other thoughts stored in our mind.

Agian, I agree with all that, and place great value on positive, or at least, interesting, mental experiences.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

This is exactly my point. In my definition of reality there is room for things that can not be measured. I'm not saying these things are physical manifestations. I'm saying just because something is imagined or hallucinated does not mean it is of no value. If you were to have a spiritual experience while on ayahuasca that changed your perception of the world, would you trivialize it because it wan't "measurably real"? I don't know what value to place on dreams or hallucinations, but since we spend one third of our lives asleep and a good portion of that dreaming, I think we should place some value on these things. In the end, all we will have of our lives is our memories and other thoughts stored in our mind.

I'm not sure what you mean by "can not be measured" because everything you then go on to mention is clearly measurable to some extent

I want to say I agree with a lot of what you're saying here because it is true that hallucinations can drastically change people's lives. So long as people are intellectually honest about this then there is no problem (too many people judge the extent to which something changed their life to be equal to the extent of its content's validity i.e. "my vision of Jesus was so profound and changed my life completely, that's why I think Jesus is real"). What I disagree with is the definitions used here. Dreams are real experiences, as are any hallucination. They can be measured, analysed, discussed etc. The distinction is that they are not experiences of the real.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I'm not sure what you mean by "can not be measured" because everything you then go on to mention is clearly measurable to some extent

I want to say I agree with a lot of what you're saying here because it is true that hallucinations can drastically change people's lives. So long as people are intellectually honest about this then there is no problem (too many people judge the extent to which something changed their life to be equal to the extent of its content's validity i.e. "my vision of Jesus was so profound and changed my life completely, that's why I think Jesus is real"). What I disagree with is the definitions used here. Dreams are real experiences, as are any hallucination. They can be measured, analysed, discussed etc. The distinction is that they are not experiences of the real.

I agree with your point that dreams are real experiences without also being experiences of the real. However, I'm not sure what you mean in saying a dream or hallucination could be measured.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I agree with your point that dreams are real experiences without also being experiences of the real. However, I'm not sure what you mean in saying a dream or hallucination could be measured.

By measured I meant described and analysed from a variety of perspectives and fields.

 

[nitsuj]

Yes, I understand what the OP meant.

But I took issue with his ..

but by seeing them they might as well be real since perception is a major part of reality


I think that's a bit of a stretch to say they might as well be real. If you accept that, you can also say that dreams and acid trips might as well be real. But they are not.

Also I note you said you eventually questioned your experience as stated above, and determined that it was a hallucination - last I heard, hallucinations are not real.

I can tell how you're defining "real" here, but look at the comment's context this way. (not that I read the whole post, just your quoted part)

If Joe believes in spirits but his friends don't you can't say "it might as well be real". If Joe and all his friends believe in spirits I think you can say "it might as well be real.".

Said differently if Joe's culture believes in spirits, and it's in bedded in the social structure of "daily life" I think that it (spirits) might as well be real.

Physical currency (bills & coins) might as well be valuable. It that sense "it might as well be real".

Funny enough I feel it must be said, I don't believe in ghosts...anymore. as a kid with an impressionable imagination & seeing an "Unsolved Mysteries" episode with fantastic special effects had me convinced ghosts were REAL! But only where dark & in old cruise ships, castles & attics.

Another take on "it might as well be real"; From marketing class an example of poor marketing - product marketed as "Monster Spray" used to keep monsters away, sells poorly due to the obvious reason of it also makes the issue "more real".

 

[alt]

I can tell how you're defining "real" here, but look at the comment's context this way. (not that I read the whole post, just your quoted part)

If Joe believes in spirits but his friends don't you can't say "it might as well be real". If Joe and all his friends believe in spirits I think you can say "it might as well be real.".

Said differently if Joe's culture believes in spirits, and it's in bedded in the social structure of "daily life" I think that it (spirits) might as well be real.

Physical currency (bills & coins) might as well be valuable. It that sense "it might as well be real".

Funny enough I feel it must be said, I don't believe in ghosts...anymore. as a kid with an impressionable imagination & seeing an "Unsolved Mysteries" episode with fantastic special effects had me convinced ghosts were REAL! But only where dark & in old cruise ships, castles & attics.

Another take on "it might as well be real"; From marketing class an example of poor marketing - product marketed as "Monster Spray" used to keep monsters away, sells poorly due to the obvious reason of it also makes the issue "more real".

Sure, look, the ancient Greeks believed in 12 gods residing on Mt Olympus - worked for them, I suppose.

And we believe an inert substance such as gold has great value .. works for us !

I can't bring myself around however, to conclude that just because many people believe in, say ghosts in our society, that ghosts may as well be, or are, real.

 

[alt]

Sure, look, the ancient Greeks believed in 12 gods residing on Mt Olympus - worked for them, I suppose.

And we believe an inert substance such as gold has great value .. works for us !

I can't bring myself around however, to conclude that just because many people believe in, say ghosts in our society, that ghosts may as well be, or are, real.

So, again, and to touch on the OP's point more fully, just because (say) half the people even in our culture believe ghosts are real, doesn't make them real, nor does it make them just about real, nor can we say they may as well be real.

If you really believe this not to be the case, you have to explain why.

 

[nitsuj]

I hear you alt, and I agree with you that they are not actually real. But for some of those who do believe, "it might as well be real."

I am splitting hairs by being able to accept for some people "it might as well be real" has real life consiquences as if "it" were real. (an even more grey area -> length contraction "might as well be real")


(on a side note I'd argue that gold is valuable, while we only have "faith" in the value of paper bills/ cheap metal coins; of course gold is "over valued" in this context)

For sure you understand my point of "might as well be real" having real life consiquences.

You're right, that doesn't make the imagined real.

The comment "it might as well be real" is a terrible way to try and validate a belief in something that is not real, and I think that is how the author presented it.

 

[Jim Kata]

The comment "it might as well be real" is a terrible way to try and validate a belief in something that is not real, and I think that is how the author presented it.

I think Ryan said it best when he said something to the effect that spirits are real experiences if not experiences of the real. This is closer to what I was trying to convey by saying they might as well be real. I'm sorry that I am not better with words and that this statement was contentious, but the fact that it was contentious I think touches on the fact that sometimes it is hard to discern between the perception of the observer versus the reality of the observation.

 

[apeiron]

This is exactly my point. In my definition of reality there is room for things that can not be measured. I'm not saying these things are physical manifestations. I'm saying just because something is imagined or hallucinated does not mean it is of no value. If you were to have a spiritual experience while on ayahuasca that changed your perception of the world, would you trivialize it because it wan't "measurably real"? I don't know what value to place on dreams or hallucinations, but since we spend one third of our lives asleep and a good portion of that dreaming, I think we should place some value on these things. In the end, all we will have of our lives is our memories and other thoughts stored in our mind.

I think a less confused way to put it is to make a distinction between our ideas and impressions, or if you prefer, our long-term memories and current states of perception.

Everything we know about reality boils down to perception. And perception in turn is about an interaction between our general ideas about what should be "out there" and immediate impressions of what might be out there.

So given the same sensory input - like a light in the sky - we can have a very different impression of it, depending on the idea being used to frame it. UFO or sea gull catching the sun on its back, for instance.

Now ghosts and spirits would be a general idea. A way we could frame our experiences. And so would be a rational scientific outlook that says instead there are no such things, and any impression of such would be mistaken on closer examination.

Note that both versions of reality have a tendency to want to confirm their prejudices. So ghost-believers will look for evidence that ghosts are real. Rationalists will look for evidence they are fakes or illusions.

So as you say, we only have our mental models of reality. And they are real to us to the extent that they are some over-arching idea into which we attempt to integrate our impressions. If you have an animistic view of reality - where you think everything else is alive and mindful, just like yourself - then that is why "through out all cultures" there is a tendency to frame impressions in this manner.

Science comes along and offers its own better general model. But it is still just an idea. (But OK, a much better idea ).

Then what about vivid dreams and hallucinations? These are more impressions than ideas. That is, they are less about an organised projection of our beliefs on current sensory input - the kind of top-down interpretation that shapes up impressions of experiencing a ghost or UFO - and more about raw bottom-up sensory patterning that forces itself upon us in an uninterpreted feeling way.

The higher levels of functioning are switched off in some fashion, and so we get a shifting, unstable, play of confused imagery.

Afterwards, we may then take these unorganised experiences and try to assimilate them to our general ideas. So we may either believe that was a brief trip into the spiritual plane, or a brief trip into a disorganised brain state.

As a further point, most people cannot accurately introspect on their dream states because they have the "wrong idea" about what to expect. They try to impose a more story-like and flowing structure on dream imagery than actually exists.

It takes practice and knowing what to expect to experience dreams as the collection of meaningless instances - a disconnected succession of sensory frames - that they are, rather than to try to read them as the kind of continuous experience that a reality should present to our senses.

 

[alt]

I hear you alt, and I agree with you that they are not actually real. But for some of those who do believe, "it might as well be real."

I am splitting hairs by being able to accept for some people "it might as well be real" has real life consiquences as if "it" were real. (an even more grey area -> length contraction "might as well be real")


(on a side note I'd argue that gold is valuable, while we only have "faith" in the value of paper bills/ cheap metal coins; of course gold is "over valued" in this context)

For sure you understand my point of "might as well be real" having real life consiquences.

You're right, that doesn't make the imagined real.

The comment "it might as well be real" is a terrible way to try and validate a belief in something that is not real, and I think that is how the author presented it.

I think we're just about on the same, emmm .. wavelength now. One point about your gold / paper money comment though.

The value of gold is still not an intrinsic one.

A caveman would be better off with a wad of bankbills while trying to light a fire. Hmm, on second thoughts, he might actually be better off with a bar of gold - particularly if he wanted to wallop his neighbour over the head with something ..