Where does new space come from as the universe gets bigger?

[CosmicVoyager]

Greetings,

How is new space created?

There was no space before the big bang, correct? And the universe is still getting bigger? So the amount of space is increasing.

Where did and does it come from? Space is something not nothing correct? It can be stretched, compressed, and curved.

Is something being converted into space? I heard mention somewhere that gravity was being converted into space.

Thanks

 

[Mordred]

A common mistake is to apply a physical nature to space. Space is simply volume or distance. the volume is filled with other things such as energy and matter. google metric expansion.

 

[CosmicVoyager]

"google metric expansion."

I had read that.

So the countless illustrations of space being warped by mass are incorrect? And the idea that you could travel faster than light by contracting and expanding space? And wormholes shown and described as distorted space. Space is constantly referred to as a fabric. That all indicates space is something.

 

[Bandersnatch]

In your opening post, try and replace every instance of the word "space" with the word "distance". Read the altered text and ask yourself whether it seems sensible to you to ask such questions.

Space is of course not equivalent to distance, but it is a very similar concept.

 

[Matterwave]

"google metric expansion."

I had read that.

So the countless illustrations of space being warped by mass are incorrect? And the idea that you could travel faster than light by contracting and expanding space? And wormholes shown and described as distorted space. Space is constantly referred to as a fabric. That all indicates space is something.

The picture of space-time as a "fabric" is an analogy, not to be taken seriously. It has its uses, but must be abandoned when it's no longer useful. Space-time is made up of all the events that take place in it, it is not its own separate entity.

 

[CosmicVoyager]

In your opening post, try and replace every instance of the word "space" with the word "distance". Read the altered text and ask yourself whether it seems sensible to you to ask such questions.

Space is of course not equivalent to distance, but it is a very similar concept.

Well this is big news. As in my last post...scientists are constantly describing it as as a thing not distance. I mean every time cosmology and physics is talked about. I could spend forever citing scientists saying something incorrect about space then, assuming they continue to make the mistakes. I can probably search these forums and find experts doing it. They are then misinforming millions of people. Most science books are wrong. Space is not curved. Mass/gravity does not curve space. Wormholes are not as illustrated. You can't expand and compress space to bypass the speed of light. It is all wrong then.

I have been trying to understand universe for years based on these endless false statements. Darnit. This changes everything. No I need to reread everything on cosmology, relativity, and quantum physics *without* thinking of space like that. They really screwed up.

 

[Bandersnatch]

I did not write any of that. Why are you saying so?

Scientists are describing space as space. It's a mathematical concept with certain well-defined properties. It's not a "thing" any more than distance is.

 

[Matterwave]

It's not as bad as it seems. People have to use words to describe things to other people. We can't just say to the masses "hey, look at the Einstein field equations - That's spacetime - that's gravity!" because nobody would know what we were talking about. The use of analogies is appropriate where they are appropriate. You don't have to "reread" everything or relearn everything just because you found out a new piece of information. Incorporate this new information into what you know.

 

[CosmicVoyager]

Scientists are describing space as space. It's a mathematical concept with certain well-defined properties. It's not a "thing" any more than distance is.

I will begin compiling a list of examples of space described and illustrated as a thing with shape stretched, compressed, curved, twisted. Grids showing space itself as having shape.

 

[Mordred]

"I will begin compiling a list of examples of space described and illustrated as a thing with shape stretched, compressed, curved, twisted. Grids showing space itself as having shape."

no need we have all seen them numerous times lol. As mentioned they are a visual aid. To describe GR influences on the energy-mass filling space.

"According to the general theory of relativity, the geometrical properties of space are not
independent, but they are determined by matter. Thus we can draw conclusions about the
geometrical structure of the universe only if we base our considerations on the state of the
matter as being something that is known."

Part of the confusion derives from statements like the one I posted, coincidentally that one is from Einstein himself lol. Remember that space itself is simply volume filled with energy/mass. So in a way its more accurate to say that gravity affects the energy/mass contained within space rather than space itself. However cosmologist tend to gloss over that as they expect the public to already understand that. Even a total vacuum has energy. So once there is more volume, that volume will always contain some form of energy potential or matter. Terms such as space is created or stretched often are in cosmology literature. Its part of the limitations of lanquage. The mathematics itself shows that its simply an increase in volume or distance between two or more points.

This article shows the geometric aspects in terms of simple distance measures with the pressure relation influences of matter and the cosmological constant.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=4697773&postcount=30

the article is based largely on Barbera Ryden's "Introductory to cosmology"

 

[Chronos]

Space is merely the emptiness between objects in the universe. Emptiness has no metric, so it is unbounded.

 

[Mordred]

define emptiness, even a void has energy density implications in quantum mechanics as the lowest possible energy state.

 

[CosmicVoyager]

"According to the general theory of relativity, the geometrical properties of space are not independent, but they are determined by matter. Thus we can draw conclusions about the geometrical structure of the universe only if we base our considerations on the state of the
matter as being something that is known."

Part of the confusion derives from statements like the one I posted, coincidentally that one is from Einstein himself lol. Remember that space itself is simply volume filled with energy/mass. So in a way its more accurate to say that gravity affects the energy/mass contained within space rather than space itself. However cosmologist tend to gloss over that as they expect the public to already understand that.

That is completely the opposite of what the general public understands. I am far more scientifically literate and knowledgeable than the general public. That quote from Einstein clearly states the opposite. It says space has geometry. That space itself has shape.

In beginning to complie my list of examples I found further confirmation of physicists currently statng that space in actually a thing like a fabric and not just volume or distance. This raises the concern to me that the problem is that only one of the current views is being represented in the replies in this forum. A dangerous state of affairs. I will seek to determine whether or not this is the case with the following example.

Are you aware of the physicist, Brian Green, and his books and PBS series'? One of which is titled "The Fabric of the Cosmos" in which one of the questions he addresses is "Is space a human abstraction or a physical entity?". Are you claiming his view is that space is not an actual thing just as you have stated? It is essential that this be made clear. It is my understanding that his view is that space itself actually has shape. That is is something like a fabric. If I am mistaken about that, then my original question was based on false assumptions. If i am correct, it was not and there should be people here who can answer the question. If there are not, this forum is extrmely limited and lacking.

 

[bapowell]

CosmicVoyager -- are you sure you aren't just getting caught up in semantics?

When we talk about the curvature of space -- we are quite literally referring to its geometry: how points in this space relate to one another. This geometry can be probed empirically -- by measuring physical objects within the universe. For example, the global curvature of the observable universe is measured by looking at the cosmic microwave background: in effect, by drawing a giant triangle through space (the sides being the size of the horizon when the CMB was generated and the distance in space out to when this happened). We then measure the opening angle of this triangle and compare it with that expected from Euclidean trigonometry, given the length of the two sides. If the universe has appreciable curvature, we expect that the angle will not follow the Euclidean rule. In what sense then, is space not curved?

Note that this is different from saying that space is a material thing, like a "fabric". (Yes, shame on Brian Greene for putting this into people's heads.)

 

[Bandersnatch]

In beginning to complie my list of examples I found further confirmation of physicists currently statng that space in actually a thing like a fabric and not just volume or distance. This raises the concern to me that the problem is that only one of the current views is being represented in the replies in this forum. A dangerous state of affairs. I will seek to determine whether or not this is the case with the following example.

This objection is similar to saying that many scientists refer to the universe as an expanding balloon in their public outreach book and talks, and then complaining that they are misleading the public by not teaching the 'alternative theory' that the universe is not in fact a balloon, or that actual scientists dogmatically reject the 'balloonness' of the universe instead of giving it equal time in their work.

It's been said many times that using the word 'fabric' is an analogy. A convenient shorthand for visualising some properties of space, exactly because talking about space having geometry, being stretched and curved, flies over most people's heads.

Are you aware of the physicist, Brian Green, and his books and PBS series'? One of which is titled "The Fabric of the Cosmos" in which one of the questions he addresses is "Is space a human abstraction or a physical entity?". Are you claiming his view is that space is not an actual thing just as you have stated? It is essential that this be made clear. It is my understanding that his view is that space itself actually has shape. That is is something like a fabric. If I am mistaken about that, then my original question was based on false assumptions. If i am correct, it was not and there should be people here who can answer the question. If there are not, this forum is extrmely limited and lacking.

You're presenting a false dillema: either space is made of something(fabric, whatever), or it is not curved, stretched etc.
There is nothing contradictory in saying that something can have a shape and not be a 'thing'. An orbit has got a shape, a bullet's trajectory has got a shape, a galactic plane has got a shape. Borders between countries have got a shape.
These are all not made of anything either.

So, no, space is not made of fabric, dough nor rubber. Yes, it does curve, stretch etc.

 

[Chronos]

The concept of zero point energy implies empty space has intrinsic 'properties'. This has captured the imagination of the lay public, and inspired more than a few cranks to make a leap of faith off the bridge of reality into an ocean of ignorance. The thermos bottle is a wonderful demonstration of the 'properties' of empty space. It does not conduct heat, yet occupies volume. The vacuum, is however, very accommodating to fields as it neither impedes or amplifies their propagation in any meaningful sense. A magnet place inside a thermos will still attract iron filings external to the container. The magnetic field is unaffected by the vacuum layer, it is only attenuated by distance interposed between the field source. Would that inspire an argument that distance has intrinsic properties? Nothing is nothing, and the supply of nothing in the universe is mathematically unlimited.

 

[julcab12]

space is a dynamic thingy? It is modeled on 2 accounts GR and QM. If combined we have Curved Space Vacuum or something.. I hope it wouldn't end up in a hole argument.. Just my 2 cents.^^

 

[Mordred]

I'm sorry Chronos this time you lost me lol.

Your example shows that due to no impediment, there is in fact energy present in the vacuum region. The source may be your magnet but it is present in that region. In every unit of volume of space there is always a pressure value. Pressure has energy potential. Whether or not you describe that truism via quantum or classical means its no less true. I do however agree that far too much mysticism oft gets implied by that simple fact.

 

[Ogg Yggdryzzle]

after the big bang

"google metric expansion."

I had read that.

So the countless illustrations of space being warped by mass are incorrect? And the idea that you could travel faster than light by contracting and expanding space? And wormholes shown and described as distorted space. Space is constantly referred to as a fabric. That all indicates space is something.

according to standard inflation theory the universe began with about 25 kilograms of matter
before inflation. the inflation of space seems to have warped matter and it increased the mass of the universe exponentially. can somebody explain that? why EXPANSION OF SPACE TIME WOULD INCREASE THE AMOUNT OF MATTER IN THE UNIVERSE?

 

[Drakkith]

according to standard inflation theory the universe began with about 25 kilograms of matter before inflation.

Can you provide a link to this? I've never heard this before.

 

[Mordred]

Welcome to the forum, I'm almost afraid to ask where you heard that statement lol. Its certainly not what the hot big bang nor the $\Lambda$CDM model teaches.

The model tells us that the Observable universe started at a hot dense state, of undetermined size and origin. Here is some recommended reading materials.

http://arxiv.org/pdf/hep-ph/0004188v1.pdf :"ASTROPHYSICS AND COSMOLOGY"- A compilation of cosmology by Juan Garcıa-Bellido

http://arxiv.org/abs/1304.4446 :"What we have leaned from Observational Cosmology." -A handy write up on observational cosmology in accordance with the LambdaCDM model.

http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0310808 :"Expanding Confusion: common misconceptions of cosmological horizons and the superluminal expansion of the Universe" Lineweaver and Davies

the first article is rather lengthy but it shows the FLRW metrics in a textbook style

 

[Ogg Yggdryzzle]

I think Steven Weinberg said it in the first three minutes. The primordial vacuum fluctuation supposedly generated a 25 kg "primordial egg" that grew into the known universe.

If nature abhors a vacuum how did space get bigger instead of contracting around the "primordial egg?" The universe sucks and that made the egg grow bigger?

 

[Ogg Yggdryzzle]

A friend recommended David Lerner's book "the big bang never happened." I have never read it. Does anyone know what its about?

 

[phinds]

A friend recommended David Lerner's book "the big bang never happened." I have never read it. Does anyone know what its about?

Based on the title, my guess is it's about 5 beers short of a six-pack.

 

[craigi]

A friend recommended David Lerner's book "the big bang never happened." I have never read it. Does anyone know what its about?

Eric Lerner has a website with the same title, arguing that plasma cosmology contradicts the big bang theory and is better supported by the evidence. I won't link it because I think it falls short of the forum standards.

You can find an overview of his academic career on the wikipedia page about him along with a number of references from serious cosmologists who dismissed his book.

 

[Mordred]

I think Steven Weinberg said it in the first three minutes. The primordial vacuum fluctuation supposedly generated a 25 kg "primordial egg" that grew into the known universe.

If nature abhors a vacuum how did space get bigger instead of contracting around the "primordial egg?" The universe sucks and that made the egg grow bigger?

I had to look in my copy of the first 3 minutes, I couldn't find that line anywhere lol not that I expected to. I always enjoy reading the book even though a lot has changed since the time of its writing

 

[Nugatory]

Are you aware of the physicist, Brian Green...

Somewhere north of two thousand hits between the google queries for "Brian greene site:www.physicsforums.com" and "Brian green site:www.physicsforums.com" suggests that we are. Those are small numbers for the Internet as a whole , but not for a single specialist web site.

 

[Romulo Binuya]

space is a dynamic thingy? It is modeled on 2 accounts GR and QM. If combined we have Curved Space Vacuum or something.. I hope it wouldn't end up in a hole argument.. Just my 2 cents.^^

That's how I understood it too, the big bangis mathematically allowed by the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle and upheld by the General Theory of Relativity.

Our universe emerged from vibrant nothingness, nothing as is not even empty space where time could exist. Nevertheless, henceforth the big bang we have a dynamic universe because of gravity.

Learning Topology is not enough to comprehend the universe, though it could explain the expanding space.

Our universe consists of four dimensions, the three space dimensions and one that is not exactly time but is related to time it is in fact time multiplied by the square root of minus 1. Which means we are discussing the concepts behind the equations and our language is inadequate.

 

[timmdeeg]

according to standard inflation theory the universe began with about 25 kilograms of matter
before inflation. the inflation of space seems to have warped matter and it increased the mass of the universe exponentially. can somebody explain that? why EXPANSION OF SPACE TIME WOULD INCREASE THE AMOUNT OF MATTER IN THE UNIVERSE?

During inflation space expanded exponentially, not matter. Matter was created after the inflation stopped. The mass then didn't increase anymore due to the conservation of baryon and lepton number.

 

[CosmicVoyager]

CosmicVoyager -- are you sure you aren't just getting caught up in semantics?

When we talk about the curvature of space -- we are quite literally referring to its geometry: how points in this space relate to one another. This geometry can be probed empirically -- by measuring physical objects within the universe. For example, the global curvature of the observable universe is measured by looking at the cosmic microwave background: in effect, by drawing a giant triangle through space (the sides being the size of the horizon when the CMB was generated and the distance in space out to when this happened). We then measure the opening angle of this triangle and compare it with that expected from Euclidean trigonometry, given the length of the two sides. If the universe has positive curvature, we expect that the angle will not follow the Euclidean rule. In what sense then, is space not curved?

Note that this is different from saying that space is a material thing, like a "fabric". (Yes, shame on Brian Greene for putting this into people's heads.)

It is unclear to me if you are saying 1) Brian Greene is not saying what he means or if 2) you disagree with what he means?

By material, I do not mean has mass. I mean it is physical. It is something as real matter and energy.

Quoting Brian Greene referring to the frame dragging detected by Gravity Probe B, "Space is something real, a physical entity like a fabric. If space were nothing there would be nothing to twist."

It seems to me he is emphasizing over and over again that space is something more than what repliers are saying.

Bandersnatch, are you also saying that by "a physical entity" Brian Greene means the same thing you are saying? I do not see how much clearer he can say it.

I am asking those who think space is something, a physical entity, as the universe gets bigger and there is more of this something, where does it come from? Is it being converted from something? Some kind of dark energy?

 

[timmdeeg]

Einstein said: "Space-time does not claim existence in its own right, but only as a structural quality of the [gravitational] field".

Whoever claims that space itself has truly physical properties should suggest how this idea could be verified experimentally, at least in principle.

 

[Bill_K]

Quoting Brian Greene referring to the frame dragging detected by Gravity Probe B, "Space is something real, a physical entity like a fabric. If space were nothing there would be nothing to twist."

If that's accurate, it's another example of a Brian Greene statement that is patently false and misleading. Frame dragging, once again, is nothing more than an alteration of distances and directions. Nothing physical like a "fabric" is involved. Empty space does not have a coefficient of viscosity, or a Young's modulus.

 

[Nugatory]

Quoting Brian Greene...

Brian Greene is to physics as pentecostal snake handling is to herpetology... Interesting, but not a foundation upon which you can build any deep understanding of the subject.

 

[Mordred]

It is unclear to me if you are saying 1) Brian Greene is not saying what he means or if 2) you disagree with what he means?

By material, I do not mean has mass. I mean it is physical. It is something as real matter and energy.

Quoting Brian Greene referring to the frame dragging detected by Gravity Probe B, "Space is something real, a physical entity like a fabric. If space were nothing there would be nothing to twist."

It seems to me he is emphasizing over and over again that space is something more than what repliers are saying.

Bandersnatch, are you also saying that by "a physical entity" Brian Greene means the same thing you are saying? I do not see how much clearer he can say it.

I am asking those who think space is something, a physical entity, as the universe gets bigger and there is more of this something, where does it come from? Is it being converted from something? Some kind of dark energy?

Space is simply volume filled with matter and energy, we have tried explaining that to you numerous times. Space itself is not a material. It is simply volume filled with matter and energy. The geometry of space is a relationship of how gravity and the cosmological constant influences the matter and energy content occupying space. In terms of expansion its a relation of the universes actual energy-matter density compared to its critical density.

The critical density is a calculated value that would result in a static universe.

GR is essentially the same, its a description of how gravity influences observations via light paths occupying the volume of space-time due to the same geometric properties of the matter-energy distributions.

Gravity does not act upon space itself, it influences the matter content residing in its volume.

those lines you see in visual images showing twists and curls etc, is simply a visual representation describing the influences on the matter-energy content residing in the volume of space.

As mentioned numerous times if you have a unit of space in the universe it will have pressure, pressure has energy potential, according to QM there will be virtual particles occupying that same volume. In QFT there will be fields influencing the matter-energy content occupying the volume of space.

However space itself does not have a fabric and is not a form of energy or matter, it is simply volume filled with the matter and energy content of the universe.

 

[WannabeNewton]

Quoting Brian Greene referring to the frame dragging detected by Gravity Probe B, "Space is something real, a physical entity like a fabric. If space were nothing there would be nothing to twist."

Why are you quoting a popularizer instead of a textbook? Granted, many textbooks often make such inaccurate claims about frame dragging as well so that won't necessarily help you. Space is not twisting and neither is space-time. The space-time of an isolated spinning body itself possesses angular momentum but that doesn't imply some kind of material twisting. What's twisting are the world-lines of observers fixed with respect to the distant stars due to the spin of the source and this is where frame dragging comes from because this twisting is proportional to the precession of a gyroscope relative to the distant stars.