Was the 2004 US Presidential election rigged?

[russ_watters]

Question: Do you think the 2004 United States Presidential election was stolen via some (any) form of vote fraud?

Don't worry, guys, I'm not going to argue it here. I just want to know what people actually think. For some reason, I'm having a hard time getting some people to state explicitly what their actual opinion is.

 

[Pengwuino]

You just can't leave well enough alone can you people...

 

[Smurf]

I voted yes. Every election, every vote is stealing liberty from the people.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

No matter the explanation for the voting machines, disinformation in regards to national defense is certainly a form of election fraud, so I voted yes.

As for the rest, I find it more likely than not that various forms of fraud occurred including possibly rigged machines, and certainly intimidation, destruction or loss of voter registration forms, games played wrt the proper location to vote, and I think a few more things that occurred that I don't remember at the moment.

 

[Pengwuino]

As for the rest, I find it more likely than not that various forms of fraud occurred including possibly rigged machines, and certainly intimidation, destruction or loss of voter registration forms, games played wrt the proper location to vote, and I think a few more things that occurred that I don't remember at the moment.

Yes, we all know this happened quite frequently. The Republicans were also caught making a few mistakes here and there.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Funny how nearly every Bush supporters responds to examples of fraud the same way: they do it too! I think my little sister also used that excuse frequently; when she was still a child.

 

[Pengwuino]

Funny how nearly every Bush supporters responds to examples of fraud the same way: they do it too! I think my little sister also used that excuse frequently; when she was still a child.

Oh so is that how you excuse the massive voter fraud perpetrated by the Democratic Party? Name calling? I see...

Ideologs at their best

The thing that separates a liberal from a conservative is that a conservative accepts the fact that both sides screw around. We also don't put up threads of every fart in the wind that might help our ideology look better no matter how hypocritical it might be.

 

[ron damon]

No matter the explanation for the voting machines, disinformation in regards to national defense is certainly a form of election fraud, so I voted yes.

Sure, when the party you don't agree with wins it means the elections were stolen.

Do you realize that by this logic every election has been/will be stolen?

 

[Gokul43201]

Sure, when the party you don't agree with wins it means the elections were stolen.
Do you realize that by this logic every election has been/will be stolen?

Do you realize that "this logic" is something you just conjured up ?

 

[Townsend]

Funny how nearly every Bush supporters responds to examples of fraud the same way: they do it too!

What do you mean by 'nearly'? That is just BS that allows you to make absurd statements like you just did. I could use that trick to say:
Funny how nearly every DNC supporter is also a nazi...
And that statement is logically equivalent to your statement. They are both BS, the difference is that I only used mine as an example and you actually meant your's.

 

[russ_watters]

No matter the explanation for the voting machines, disinformation in regards to national defense is certainly a form of election fraud, so I voted yes.

For clarity, are you saying he lied to the public and that is a form of fraud? Fair enough, though not really what I was asking...

 

[russ_watters]

I voted yes. Every election, every vote is stealing liberty from the people.

Um... if you are unclear on what a "democracy" or "republic" is, I'd be happy to explain it to you in another thread.

 

[Gokul43201]

I went with "I don't know". Most of the evidence of fraud is, in my opinion, circumstantial.

 

[pattylou]

Maybe it's because I'm drunk, but . Russ, you naughty, naughty boy.

 

[Pengwuino]

Maybe it's because I'm drunk, but . Russ, you naughty, naughty boy.

ugh, you're always drunk

 

[Moonbear]

Maybe it's because I'm drunk, but . Russ, you naughty, naughty boy.

Oooh, I was right, it is Russ that Patty wants! Sounds like Patty is drunk and Russ is getting naughty, and Patty is liking it! Oh my!

Okay, back from my side track...that was just impossible to not comment on.

I voted "I don't know." There are accusations and claims and denials and refutations, but unless it did happen and you were in on it, none of us knows for certain one way or the other.

 

[ron damon]

Do you realize that "this logic" is something you just conjured up ?

Well, his point of view was that since he doesn't like Bush, the elections were a fraud.

 

[russ_watters]

Maybe it's because I'm drunk, but . Russ, you naughty, naughty boy.

Uh, pattylou, it's Wednesday.

Oooh, I was right, it is Russ that Patty wants!

As it turns out, I have a knack for attracting liberal women who hate me.

 

[Pengwuino]

Who is going ot get drunk with me :D

 

[pattylou]

ugh, you're always drunk

oooh. That hurts. But it's not true, so 'sokay.

Edit: Actually, why would you even say such a thing? I am rarely drunk, except for last November, and perhaps I made some comments about being incredibly hard hit by the election results.

?

Pengwuino? I'd like to nip this rumor in the bud. Why would you say "Patty's always drunk?"

 

[pattylou]

Uh, pattylou, it's Wednesday.

Yeah. Book club night.

^ (Edit) that was a silly off the cuff comment, meant humorously. I just sent 6 women home, and logged on to see if there were any interesting conversations about politics, before turning in. It's not even 10 pm here yet.

I was surprised to see that Russ had started a poll on this topic. Rather than "Patty wanting Russ" (as Moonbear joked) it looked to me like "Russ wanted Patty" and I found it odd (to see the poll) and made a joke about it.

But this is nuts - within about three minutes of my comment there were several comments in reply about how (1) I'm always drunk, (2) it's Wednesday and (3) I have the hots for Russ.

Frankly, that's kinda weird.

Good night.

 

[deckart]

Maybe it's because I'm drunk, but . Russ, you naughty, naughty boy.

Now, now, polly, don't be hitting on the enemy.
(let's get a few more drinks in her and see where this goes)

 

[Gokul43201]

Well, his point of view was that since he doesn't like Bush, the elections were a fraud.

Where on Earth did you get this from ? He clearly stated that he thought the fraud arose from what he perceived as "disinformation". Where in his post does he say that he doesn't like Bush ? Further, where does he say that this is the reason he thinks the election was a fraud ?

...disinformation in regards to national defense is certainly a form of election fraud...

 

[Smurf]

within about three minutes of my comment there were several comments in reply about how (1) I'm always drunk, (2) it's Wednesday and (3) I have the hots for Russ.
Frankly, that's kinda weird.
Good night.

Yeah, that is weird! Everyone knows it's me your after.

 

[Tide]

Question: Do you think the 2004 United States Presidential election was stolen via some (any) form of vote fraud?
Don't worry, guys, I'm not going to argue it here. I just want to know what people actually think. For some reason, I'm having a hard time getting some people to state explicitly what their actual opinion is.

Think? Surely, you jest. National politics has evolved into a hatefest so don't expect thought and civility when you ask such a loaded question.

It's like handing out matches in a gasoline filled room and that may be a hint as to why you're having a hard time getting some people to explicitly state their "actual position." :)

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

I voted no. That's not to say there was no fraud, but that I don't think the 2004 election was 'stolen' thanks to it. Now, the 2000 election...

 

[Smurf]

Isn't the existence of fraud pretty.. obvious? I mean, everyone was pulling strings to try to trip up the other party, it's just a matter of wether or not it was at a level that was illegal that's disputed, and wether or not someone did it better enough to affect the outcome.

 

[Astronuc]

I voted "I don't know", for the same reasons as Moonbear stated. I don't have all the evidence, but I am aware of irregularities in many states - and on behalf of both Democrats and Republicans.

I certainly think Democracy has been hijacked in the US.

However, I do think Kerry lost because either he turned off more people than Bush, or he failed to inspire more people than Bush, or both.

Kerry certainly didn't inspire any confidence in me, although I think he is preferable to Bush.

 

[loseyourname]

I voted no. That's not to say there was no fraud, but that I don't think the 2004 election was 'stolen' thanks to it. Now, the 2000 election...

My thoughts exactly. Instances of fraud almost certainly occured, at least at the county level, but given the available statistics, there is no way that either candidate received enough help in the battleground states to steal a victory he would not have otherwise won.

 

[SOS2008]

For clarity, are you saying he lied to the public and that is a form of fraud? Fair enough, though not really what I was asking...

Yes.

Really you have to look at the 2000 election first, because without that Bush would not have been elected, to then lie about inviading Iraq, to then call himself a "war president" to then tilt the 2004 election in his favor. As for the 2004 election, it was expected that the election would be close, mostly because Kerry was not as strong a candidate as preferred. However, Bush was so bad that the only way he had the margins he did was via smear tactics (which he has had a track record of doing) and being able to hide the facts about his own, far more pitiful background.

Based on the lack of paper trail for voting machines, and that there has been quite an effort to keep it that way, I have to ask the simple question: "Why?" Anything on the up-and-up would have a paper trail, verifiable code, etc.

Oh so is that how you excuse the massive voter fraud perpetrated by the Democratic Party? Name calling? I see...

Ideologs at their best

The thing that separates a liberal from a conservative is that a conservative accepts the fact that both sides screw around. We also don't put up threads of every fart in the wind that might help our ideology look better no matter how hypocritical it might be.

What separates the liberals from the conservatives is liberals will agree that it is bad for both sides to be bad (i.e., not be hypocritical).

 

[Pengwuino]

What separates the liberals from the conservatives is liberals will agree that it is bad for both sides to be bad (i.e., not be hypocritical).

But since liberals always claim they can do no wrong... that clause is never fully implimented

Come to think of it really... both sides probably did a lot of illegal acts but with the way people are, I wonder if ANY of it was actually planned and authorized from the party's main committees. Id say odds are 100:1 that most voter fraud was perpetrated by small, rogue groups of ideologs. Almost every report is of voter intimidation, misinformation, and other small things done at the localest of levels. Now what's more probable, the DNC or RNC leaders authorizing small, insignificant acts that screw with a handful of voters that would have a 1000 fold negative effect on them if they were caught authorizing it... or these extremist ideologs "doing their small part for America" with really no chance of being caught/prosecuted.

Look at the people out there. Look at that Sheenan woman. Her son died, she's in the middle of a divorce... and her main priority is going out and traveling across the country having a merry ol time protesting the Bush Administration. And there are people worse then this! If someones willing to do this... voter fraud that probably won't get punished because it wouldn't be easily proved would be nothing to them. I say its all local level. Small groups of republicans and democrats who are just more then willing to compromise US laws in order for their candidate to get elected (or probably, more likely, to piss off the other party)

Whoa, PF Just had a server fart

 

[SOS2008]

Look at the people out there. Look at that Sheenan woman. Her son died, she's in the middle of a divorce... and her main priority is going out and traveling across the country having a merry ol time protesting the Bush Administration.

You never cease to amaze me.

 

[Pengwuino]

You never cease to amaze me.

Oh ok... i guess mourning deaths and dealing with your own life's major problems is only top priority for republicans

 

[edward]

Was there election fraud involved in 2004, yes definitely.

From a Republican Senatorial web site:

Shortcut to: http://rpc.senate.gov/_files/Feb1504VoterFraudSD.pdf

Why would the Republicans still be pushing election reform unless they thought it was true?

 

[Townsend]

What separates the liberals from the conservatives is liberals will agree that it is bad for both sides to be bad (i.e., not be hypocritical).

Really? That's funny because the only thing I ever hear from you is anti-republican...

When I see a "fair and balanced" point of view that bad mouths liberals and their retarded mistakes just as much as they bad mouth republicans then and only then will I listen to a comment from them like the one you made. As it is I have yet to see you take a seriously anti-liberal point of view even once. And that is saying a lot because I have read a lot of your comments.