A Physics Forum Member in King Arthur's Court

[DaveC426913]

When watchiig historical shows, I often find myself musing about how I might survive in those times - from a time traveler point of view. ie. I appear with only my own current 21st century layperson's knowledge. Can I substantially improve the livelihood and survival rate of the community I find myself in (without getting burned as a witch)?

Helpful things might include mechanical labour-saving technology, healthcare habits and personal hygiene. It would remain to be seen if enough people would actually listen to me to make a difference, but that's just part of the "Mary Sue" trope that goes without saying.

The most common and obvious joumey is to, say, London in the 16th century or thereabouts. Do I know enough about Bubonic Plague to save my neighorbhood or village?

• I would urge the villagers to chase away or kill all the rats, as they carry fleas with the plague. I don't think I know enough to help them should they get sick.
• I would urge them to wash hands daily and bathe weekly.
• I would try very hard to make penicillin.
• I would urge the use of clean water.
• I would also try to make firebreaks between buildings so as to stave off massive wild fires.

What would you do? What improvements (if any) do you think would be highest priority?
Do you think you could do it without revealing how you know so much "I'm from the future. No wait. Put down those pitchforks." - or why they really need to listen to you even if it goes against their own experience?

Do you think it would be useful to explain to them about the tiny animalcules that get in their food and their water and their wounds?

OK, that's 500 years past. What about 5000? Very different priorities I imagine.

Discuss!

 

[Baluncore]

Everyone in a community has their place. The presence of a free person, an agent from somewhere unknown, would get you quickly arrested. You will need others to face the public, and take the fall. Keep your head down, below the parapet.

Seek out those who might do your work for you, show them the magic trick or ritual, and point out the surprising real benefits. Allow their greed to do your work for you. Tell them they are the only one, and will get all the credit for the discovery, and to see how far they can take it.

Now tell that secretly to three people to encourage competition, to prevent stagnation of the novelty. You will need to hide your activity, to explain why so often, several people will "independently" come up with the same idea at the same time. So explain the concept of "morphic resonance" to three people, to disguise your widespread activities.

 

[DaveC426913]

OK, that's the how. I was more interested in the what.

What would you try to improve?

 

[Baluncore]

When?

King Arthur is said to have ruled between about 500 AD and 550 AD. That is after the collapse of the Roman period in Britain. Arthur was followed by the Vikings, then by the Norman Conquest in AD 1066. That period from 500 AD to 1066 is referred to as the Dark Ages, mainly because records from the church and state of that period were lost.

Science and then Isaac Newton developed in the "Age of Reason and Enlightenment" following the Reformation of the Church of England in about 1530, which dispelled control by Catholicism and the Pope.

Are you setting the challenge;
1. In Arthurian times of the early Dark Ages, circa 550 AD, or;
2. In the Catholic times between 1066 through to 1530, or;
3. In the time of the Reformation, that is about 500 years ago, or;
4. Helping during the later scientific and industrial revolution ?

 

[DaveC426913]

I was rounding it to 500 years ago but I'm easy. Do you think there would be a lot of difference between 500AD, 1000AD and 1500AD?

 

[AlexB23]

When watchiig historical shows, I often find myself musing about how I might survive in those times - from a time traveler point of view. ie. I appear with only my own current 21st century layperson's knowledge. Can I substantially improve the livelihood and survival rate of the community I find myself in (without getting burned as a witch)?

Helpful things might include mechanical labour-saving technology, healthcare habits and personal hygiene. It would remain to be seen if enough people would actually listen to me to make a difference, but that's just part of the "Mary Sue" trope that goes without saying.

The most common and obvious joumey is to, say, London in the 16th century or thereabouts. Do I know enough about Bubonic Plague to save my neighorbhood or village?

• I would urge the villagers to chase away or kill all the rats, as they carry fleas with the plague. I don't think I know enough to help them should they get sick.
• I would urge them to wash hands daily and bathe weekly.
• I would try very hard to make penicillin.
• I would urge the use of clean water.
• I would also try to make firebreaks between buildings so as to stave off massive wild fires.

What would you do? What improvements (if any) do you think would be highest priority?
Do you think you could do it without revealing how you know so much "I'm from the future. No wait. Put down those pitchforks." - or why they really need to listen to you even if it goes against their own experience?

Do you think it would be useful to explain to them about the tiny animalcules that get in their food and their water and their wounds?

OK, that's 500 years past. What about 5000? Very different priorities I imagine.

Discuss!

If I ever found myself transported through time to 16th century London or ancient civilizations 5,000 years past, there would be have two main goals: survive without getting burned at the stake, and make a positive impact on my newfound community. Easier said than done. In 16th century London, my first order of business would be to tackle the Bubonic Plague and those pesky fires that seemed to ravage the city. Later, maybe try to convince the locals to ditch their flea-ridden rats, wash their hands daily (a novel concept, I'm sure), and drink clean water. And, of course, advocating for firebreaks between buildings – because who needs a medieval inferno?

But here's the thing: I would not exactly be able to whip out my Samsung Galaxy A54 and Google "plague prevention" or "fire safety tips" (cos there would be no cell service back then), I'd have to rely on my layperson's knowledge and hope that the locals wouldn't think I was a warlock (or worse, a know-it-all). So, I would attribute my bright ideas to "traveling scholars" or "wise men from afar" – because who wouldn't trust a mysterious stranger with a fancy beard? When explaining germs, I would use analogies like "tiny bad seeds" or "spoiled food" – no need to get too scientific. And if I found myself in ancient Mesopotamia or Egypt, I'd focus on more basic (but no less crucial) needs: water storage, food preservation, and tool making.

It is a delicate balance, but I think it is possible to make a real difference in the past without getting ostracized or, you know, killed. By being mindful of local customs, building relationships, and demonstrating tangible benefits, a time traveler might just earn the right to stick around. And who knows? Maybe even get to enjoy a pint of ale at the local tavern, plague-free and without worrying about the roof catching fire. Now that's what I call a successful time-traveling adventure.

 

[Baluncore]

Do you think there would be a lot of difference between 500AD, 1000AD and 1500AD?

Yes.
Health and community practices were regulated by the Church. Those religious practices actually protected the community and enabled it to survive in the environment, naturally selecting between religions. Touching a dog, or eating pork, can be risky in some places. You do not need to explain or know why, just follow the traditional rules that work in your re(li)gion.

The church and community must be receptive to the new concepts you will introduce. Those new concepts need to be propagated forwards to the next generation. Any attempt to introduce a new concept, ahead of its natural time, will result in ridicule, bullying, and then persecution of those deviant practices or ideas, by the conservative church community.

Science and technology advance at natural rates. The young are always pushing the community boundaries. When the time is ripe, for you to introduce a new practice, others will be doing the same, you are redundant. Your time would be better invested in observing, recording, and discussing, not in changing.

 

[DaveC426913]

I hadn't even thought of church interference.

 

[jedishrfu]

I look to related stories like the Time Machine by Wells what three books would you bring to the help the future mankind.

Or the Man from Earth story of someone who lived through 14000 years of history.

Or the Star Trek episode City on the Edge of Forever where you need to work with stone knives and Bear skins.

Or the Tyrone Power movie I’ll never forget you where he is an atomic scientist who travels back in time and recreates some of the science he knew but others feel is madness.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I'll_Never_Forget_You_(film)

For me if I traveled back in time, i might introduce some simple mathematical ideas or inventions like the sliderule or complex numbers or boolean algebra or maybe Trachtenberg multiplication. All may cause disruptions in the timeline though.

 

[pinball1970]

I hadn't even thought of church interference

It's a nice idea but that would be the drawback.

You bring some guy back using CPR say?
In league with satan, who else has control over death?

 

[snorkack]

Recall Green Children of Woolpit. Outlandish physical appearance, strange clothes, unknown laguage.
They were accepted, and the surviving girl, despite being "very wanton and impudent", managed to marry.
How would medieval England have accepted someone from Africa, or China?
Oh, and 16th century Britain did host several American Indians. As well as too many Africans for Queen Bess´ taste.

 

[pinball1970]

I would try very hard to make penicillin

One other thing to consider.

We are where we are in 2024 in terms of modern medicine and antibiotics.
Say you introduced them in the 6th century? How would you stop the proliferation of penicillin manufacturers?
Not following your strict instructions?
Physicians not adhering to all the careful practice you laid out?

Then you have people of the 6th century, they are dying then suddenly start to feel well and recover within 48 hours, it's a miracle! Why continue with the whole course?
I need to get back to the goats.

Within a few decades you have super bugs and broad spectrum no longer is as effective.

So this starts happening in the 6th Century rather than the 20th.

 

[Hornbein]

It's a good list. But damned if I know how to make penicillin. Shoot. I know it's mold, but which one?

It turns out that the life of John Dee was quite a bit like this. Twain might very well have known about it. Dee was one of the most influential people in all of history but not widely known. At the time Britain had no science or math. His parents were courtiers who had the money to send John to Europe, where he studied under Mercator. He translated Euclid's Elements to English and brought it back to Merry Old. Mapping the seas was so important he became a special consultant to the Queen. He was one of the wealthiest men in Merry Old, having the biggest library. Books were very expensive.

Dee founded the British Navy (!) and started the idea that the British should conquer an empire in a righteous way that would improve the lives of the subjugated.

He was widely believed to have defeated the Spanish Armada via sorcery. When the Queen passed on he lost his position. His house was trashed by those who thought him of the Devil. He went to the court of Poland in the company of a man he believed to have mystical powers.

We wouldn't have those valuable connections to start, but all sorts of con men found favor with the bored aristocracy, especially in France. Making gold out of base metals, that kind of thing. If you have that sort of charm and some real science, why not? I don't recall Connecticut Yankee in detail, but I think that's what he does. Works within the system, doesn't tell anyone he's from the future, does flashy tricks with gunpowder and such while pretending it is magic. Get in with the Queen or King and have them take care of the rats and the water.

 

[pinball1970]

I know it's mold, but which one?

The green one, probably.

If you dont get the antibiotic you might get Stilton.

 

[pinball1970]

I would urge the villagers to chase away or kill all the rats, as they carry fleas with the plague. I don't think I know enough to help them should they get sick.

I agree with this one. Avoiding disease via:

Explaining Germ theory, vectors (the legged kind)
Social distancing
Masks
Washing
Boiling water/salt for sterilizing
Burning biohazards including bodies, clothes, houses if necessary

 

[Baluncore]

TB and leprosy were endemic in the population. Wear a mask.
Drink tea, beer, or wine, never water.

Disease vectors travelled at the speed of a horse.
Please don't change that by inventing engines that burn fossil fuels.

 

[James Demers]

Make friends with the village priest. People will listen to him, not to you.
Public health would be the issue where you'd have the greatest impact, but you wouldn't have much in the way of technology to work with. (You're not about to chlorinate the water supply.) You might invent soap, if that's not yet a thing, and encourage hand washing, bathing, and doing laundry.
Next up, garbage/rodent control. (Same stuff your health department looks for.)

 

[Hornbein]

TB and leprosy were endemic in the population. Wear a mask.
Drink tea, beer, or wine, never water.

Disease vectors travelled at the speed of a horse.
Please don't change that by inventing engines that burn fossil fuels.

Van Beethoven went deaf from drinking wine sweetened with lead.

 

[DaveC426913]

Van Beethoven went deaf from drinking wine sweetened with lead.

That's one theory.

 

[erobz]

What would you do? What improvements (if any) do you think would be highest priority?

I would probably work on mass sterilization... I think its the only way whoever(whatever) is running this three ring circus sideshow is going to get theirs. Seriously though, at the very least I would go back and find one of my ancestors and snuff them out. Low effort, but I think it has the benefit of being 100% effective. Unless of course when you travel back in time you are in a parallel universe, not the one you currently exist in. How many of those are there?

 

[Flyboy]

A bit late to the party, but… yeah, a modified explanation of germ theory is at the top of my list of things to try and introduce. After that… hmmm. I kinda lean towards the printing press, tbh. Start with the church, use it to produce bibles for them that are uniform and standardized. Then start to introduce reading/writing for the local community, using a language other than the language used in the bible production. That should keep the church onboard with it, as it keeps them in a position of power. After that… scientific method? Crop rotation? Selective breeding for crops? Better metallurgy? Lots of options.

 

[pinball1970]

Sounds a little political but education, regarding female intelligence and capability.
Think of how many great scientists were missed because they did not have the chance to study and explore the world around them?
Just because they were girls?

 

[Flyboy]

Great idea, but that would be a multi-generational project just to get people to listen, let alone accept. It’s much harder to provide a concrete example the local population can understand to show the benefits.

 

[Baluncore]

Think of how many great scientists were missed because they did not have the chance to study and explore the world around them?
Just because they were girls?

King Arthur. (Circa 500 AD). A post-Roman leader in England and Wales.
Francis Bacon. (1561–1626). Advocated the scientific method.

The idea that you could teach science to girls, 1000 years before the scientific revolution, would be too far ahead of its time.

Surviving the Dark Ages, (500 AD to 1000 AD) was very hard, unless you were a Baron or higher in the social register. Those times are dark, because the little that was written, has not survived.

Illiterate men worked as labourers, or fought and died as soldiers. Educated men, who could read and write, became officers, or clerks.

Women have always done their best to care for their children, but often died in childbirth. Back in the Dark and Middle Ages, there was certainly no time, nor energy, for a misplaced investment in a scientific education for girls. Survival was too important.

The industrial revolution finally began to ease the labour of daily life, but it was only after the improvements in life expectancy, through scientific medical care, that upper class, childless women, could study and follow their interests employing the scientific method. Florence Nightingale and Ada Lovelace are early examples.

It is only during the last 120 years, that education in science of the masses, has been able to yield a return on investment.

 

[pinball1970]

a concrete example the local population can understand to show the benefits.

Take a smart girl with me, rules are a little fast and loose and we do have a time machine.
So, my gift to the community is education, very smart girl shows the village elders a thing or two.

 

[pinball1970]

King Arthur. (Circa 500 AD). A post-Roman leader in England and Wales.
Francis Bacon. (1561–1626). Advocated the scientific method.

The idea that you could teach science to girls, 1000 years before the scientific revolution, would be too far ahead of its time.

Surviving the Dark Ages, (500 AD to 1000 AD) was very hard, unless you were a Baron or higher in the social register. Those times are dark, because the little that was written, has not survived.

Illiterate men worked as labourers, or fought and died as soldiers. Educated men, who could read and write, became officers, or clerks.

Women have always done their best to care for their children, but often died in childbirth. Back in the Dark and Middle Ages, there was certainly no time, nor energy, for a misplaced investment in a scientific education for girls. Survival was too important.

The industrial revolution finally began to ease the labour of daily life, but it was only after the improvements in life expectancy, through scientific medical care, that upper class, childless women, could study and follow their interests employing the scientific method. Florence Nightingale and Ada Lovelace are early examples.

It is only during the last 120 years, that education in science of the masses, has been able to yield a return on investment.

Not wanting to disagree with you (I just cited you as intelligent!)

 

[snorkack]

King Arthur. (Circa 500 AD). A post-Roman leader in England and Wales.
Francis Bacon. (1561–1626). Advocated the scientific method.

The idea that you could teach science to girls, 1000 years before the scientific revolution, would be too far ahead of its time.

It wasn´t. For faiths, you had Hypatia and you had St. Scholastica (who was actual contemporary of Arthur, lived 480...543).

Surviving the Dark Ages, (500 AD to 1000 AD) was very hard, unless you were a Baron or higher in the social register. Those times are dark, because the little that was written, has not survived.

Illiterate men worked as labourers, or fought and died as soldiers. Educated men, who could read and write, became officers, or clerks.

Women have always done their best to care for their children, but often died in childbirth. Back in the Dark and Middle Ages, there was certainly no time, nor energy, for a misplaced investment in a scientific education for girls. Survival was too important.

The industrial revolution finally began to ease the labour of daily life, but it was only after the improvements in life expectancy, through scientific medical care, that upper class, childless women, could study and follow their interests employing the scientific method. Florence Nightingale and Ada Lovelace are early examples.

Middle Ages had lots of upper class, childless women. Most nuns were upper class (nobody except upper class could afford to support nuns, and they rarely sponsored lower class women into the status of choir nuns, rather than non-nun maidservants of nunneries) and most nuns were childless (upper class widows and upper class sinners with children might retire to nunneries, but most nuns were virgins). Nuns were as upper class as monks, and might be expected to have had as much leisure for intellectual pursuits. But the results...
Yeah, there was a scattering of high profile nun intellectuals. Heloise, Hildegard von Bingen... But when you count the high profile medieval scientists, what is the ratio of nuns to monks?

If you taught science to nuns or girls who were prospective nuns, what payoff would you expect?

 

[Baluncore]

If you taught science to nuns or girls who were prospective nuns, what payoff would you expect?

An inquisition from the church, as it upholds its dogma, with the backing of the Pope.

 

[pinball1970]

An inquisition from the church, as it upholds its dogma, with the backing of the Pope.

It is always the stumbling block.

Suggesting women, poor people, children, non religious, can be smart and contribute to the society without any outside agency would be impossible.

 

[snorkack]

Suggesting women, poor people, children, non religious, can be smart and contribute to the society without any outside agency would be impossible.

It was always pretty obvious that non-religious rich and powerful men might be smart and contribute to the society.

 

[pinball1970]

It was always pretty obvious that non-religious rich and powerful men might be smart and contribute to the society.

Or that they might be in league with satan, they were a suspicious lot.

 

[pinball1970]

It was always pretty obvious that non-religious rich and powerful men might be smart and contribute to the society.

1485 possible scenario

 

[pinball1970]

It probably was not as bad as this in Arthurian times....

 

[snorkack]

Or that they might be in league with satan, they were a suspicious lot.

Yeah, but if you suspected your King of being in league with Satan, what were you going to do? Who was more likely to be in league with Satan, a king or a pope?

 

[DaveC426913]

Take a smart girl with me, rules are a little fast and loose and we do have a time machine.
So, my gift to the community is education, very smart girl shows the village elders a thing or two.

I was assuming I would only arrive with the clothes on my back.

If the scenario involved having time to prepare, and bring things/people - that would be a VERY different scenario.