Am I setting my salary requirement too low?

[BradP]

I have a B.S. in mechanical engineering and internship experience. I have been setting my minimum salary as $35,000 when employers push me for a number. I think this is low enough so that they would almost never choose a different candidate based on affordability. I do not really care about money that much at this point -- I am just trying to get experience. My only concern is that by setting a lower salary, I make myself appear less competent. Do you think I would be more likely to get a job if I stated a different number?

 

[Locrian]

How about leaving it blank or putting "negotiable" or "open to reasonable offers"?

 

[TMFKAN64]

I'm not a mechanical engineer, but that sounds *way* too low to me. As in "what's wrong with him?" low.

A quick search shows that a starting mechanical engineer should be asking for about $60K. I'd ask for that, and don't be surprised if you are offered less.

 

[Ryker]

I think it's good to come up with a number. Research a bit and see what the market price for what you offer or what people in a similar position get paid. If you think you're better than average, maybe increase the number slightly, if you think you're worse, leave it at average. "Naming a price" shouldn't hurt your chances, but does make an impression you're assertive and confident in regards to what you offer. So in that regard, it could actually increase them, as no one really wants or at least values a push-around or someone who isn't sure of his abilities.

I know it's hard when looking for that first job, and you want to do everything you can just to get it, but the concern you voiced is on point, I'd say. You don't want to just low-ball and hope you're going to get in because of that. The chances of that are namely quite slim and even then, the only employer who is going to make such a bad choice is a bad one, not in terms of personality, but in terms of his competence. Let's face it, making business decisions based on what other people tell you the price should be isn't a sign of a successful business operator, is it?

Plus, you say you don't care about money, but the fact is that if you do get in and see everyone else making twice the amount for the same job, you're going to feel bad, really bad. You're going to hate yourself for not giving out a realistic price, because, well, it's going to be hard for you to later negotiate and demand a higher wage. And that could then also have a negative influence on your work and how you feel in that working environment. You need to be assertive, but realistic. Don't name a ridiculous amount, but also don't shoot yourself in the foot by underestimating your worth. That kind of thing, at least in my experience, is also bad in principle, because people start competing for places with lower and lower wages, but working more and more. You just work yourself to death that way.

 

[fizziks]

How about leaving it blank or putting "negotiable" or "open to reasonable offers"?

Some employers would specify it as a requirement otherwise your application is tossed away. I've known some that do.

$35000 is very low. My dad never finished high school and gets about 26-27k a year in an unskilled job. Also, it's sometimes not very good to offer a low salary requirement. It comes off more as a desperate cry for "please hire me, I need experience and will work for next to nothing".

You are selling yourself to the employer. Give them a decent price so they'll know you are quality work. If salary requirements are literally required, you need to give them a quantity value.

 

[fss]

$35,000 USD as a starting salary for a mechanical engineer? You are selling yourself for a bargain-basement rate. $50,000 minimum. $60,000 is still in the low/mid range.

 

[Andy Resnick]

I'm not sure why nobody has pointed out that average salaries depend on location- good luck getting $50-$60k starting salary as a fresh-out in Detroit, for example.

 

[lisab]

I don't think you should disclose what your rock-bottom requirement is. Like Locrian said, just leave it blank or say "Negotiable".

 

[fss]

I'm not sure why nobody has pointed out that average salaries depend on location- good luck getting $50-$60k starting salary as a fresh-out in Detroit, for example.

$50k is a fairly standard salary for an entry-level MechE even in Detroit.

 

[xxChrisxx]

Never make the first move in salary negotiations. It can only end badly for you.

Average starting salary for an engineer in the uk is about 24ish k. So that's about 40k usd. I'm surprised that it's that much higher in the us. I mean starting on 60k?

 

[Ryker]

Never make the first move in salary negotiations. It can only end badly for you.

If I understand correctly, he didnt suggest making the first move, but rather answering when questioned.

 

[fizziks]

When an employer asks for a specifi salary you give them a number to work with. Otherwise it's negotiable.

Average starting in the US is about 50-70k depending on location and level of degree. I started out at 58k with a Masters and a few months of internship experience.

 

[xxChrisxx]

If I understand correctly, he didnt suggest making the first move, but rather answering when questioned.

Just as bad. The correct answer is "what do you think I am worth", well more subtle than that, but you get the idea. You make them say a ballpark figure first, unless they are hyper insistant. Then I'd always say a high figure expecting to be knocked down.

Op you've also got to e remember that pay increases are typically a % increase. setting your starting figure low will mean a lower increase, meaning you'll always lag behind.

I'm actually a bit green with envy that I started on 2/3 that of a us graduate. The uk sucks nads. : (

 

[Ryker]

Just as bad. The correct answer is "what do you think I am worth", well more subtle than that, but you get the idea. You make them say a ballpark figure first, unless they are hyper insistant. Then I'd always say a high figure expecting to be knocked down.

Imagine how silly you'd come across if one asks you for a figure, you decline naming one, they in turn do name one and then you decide to object to it, because you think it's too low. Not to mention the fact that by returning the ball and declining an answer to a straight-forward question you're basically trying to make yourself the master of the interview. Unless you're really sure they want you badly, I'd steer away from that. In any case, you lose a lot of negotiating power, whereas you can gain only if the employer is really naive and offering salaries that you wouldn't get anywhere else, or if you value yourself so low that this skews you perception of reality and makes you throw out a figure that is nowhere near the going rate of someone in a position, comparable to the one being offered.

Op you've also got to e remember that pay increases are typically a % increase. setting your starting figure low will mean a lower increase, meaning you'll always lag behind.

That's a good point, though, and by going too low you really are shooting yourself in the foot.

 

[Mathnomalous]

I'd say research what the median salary for mechanical engineers with your level of experience and skills is in your geographical location. If you can get your eyes on the salaries of mechanical engineers employed by your prospective employer, even better.

Most employers probably have an accurate idea of the market value for the positions they hire (and the specific market value for specific individuals they hire). If you have a close estimate of what the employer offers people with your background, you are closer to an "even" play field with that employer. You can then haggle within that smaller interval, rather than a bigger one. Employer shoots for the lowest end, you shoot for the biggest end, and both meet somewhere near the middle (but preferably closer to your end). In theory.

In some case, just say fruck it. A friend of mine went from $50k/yr in 2008 to $105k this year just because he told the employer he "wouldn't take less than that."

 

[Mathnomalous]

Something I don't understand is the psychology behind salary negotiations. If I shoot low, the employer might think I'm desperate for a job, have low self-esteem, and/or have mediocre skills; if I shoot high, the employer thinks I have an inflated ego, arrogance, delusions, etc. Ok, whatever.

But the employer has a budget and knows how much it can spend on a new hire. I also know the employer has some kind of budget and will try to get me for as cheap as possible. But one still gets asked "how much would you like to get paid?" Too much BS, imo.

I prefer employers who list a salary range, according to experience/qualifications, and negotiate from there.

 

[twofish-quant]

If I understand correctly, he didnt suggest making the first move, but rather answering when questioned.

Even that's a bad idea. If someone asks you what your salary requirements are, always say "negotiable" or "I'm flexible." The only time you should give a number is if it is clear that you will lose the job otherwise, and I know of only one employer that does that.

The reason for doing this is that your employer has a better view of the market than you, and if you come up with a number, it's going to be less accurate as a market value than what the employer gives you. You should have some idea of what the market rate is so that you don't get lowballed. But the employer should always make the first move.

 

[twofish-quant]

Just for reference. I've been a hiring manager, so I can tell you what things look like from the other end of the interview table.

Imagine how silly you'd come across if one asks you for a figure, you decline naming one, they in turn do name one and then you decide to object to it, because you think it's too low.

This happens all of the time. It's standard business practice in negotiations. Also if someone does give you a number, then you have to think about whether to take it or counter.

Not to mention the fact that by returning the ball and declining an answer to a straight-forward question you're basically trying to make yourself the master of the interview.

Yes, and you have good reasons for doing it, which the manager should understand.

Let's get one thing straight. Entry level employees have *NO* negotiating power. When talking with an employer about salaries, it's really not a negotiation. There is a market rate for entry level employees, and your goal is to hit that number.

 

[twofish-quant]

You can then haggle within that smaller interval, rather than a bigger one. Employer shoots for the lowest end, you shoot for the biggest end, and both meet somewhere near the middle (but preferably closer to your end). In theory.

There's really no haggling involved. For entry level employees, the market is liquid enough so that if you get something that you expect, you just take it. Also ideally, you will have more than one pending offer so that you can get into a bidding war.

 

[twofish-quant]

Something I don't understand is the psychology behind salary negotiations. If I shoot low, the employer might think I'm desperate for a job, have low self-esteem, and/or have mediocre skills; if I shoot high, the employer thinks I have an inflated ego, arrogance, delusions, etc. Ok, whatever.

It's more of an issue of information asymmetry than psychology. The employer has a stack of resumes. They know how much they are already paying. They know the market rates.

One reason not to care about psychology is that to the manager, you are just one of twenty or so candidates, so they employer is not going to care too much about your psychology or think too much about you.

But the employer has a budget and knows how much it can spend on a new hire. I also know the employer has some kind of budget and will try to get me for as cheap as possible.

In fact, with big companies, newbie hires tend to get paid a standard rate. Also if the employer saves money with lower salaries from one hire, they often can't transfer the money to other things. Also, don't think of the employer as one person. In all but the smallest of companies, the employer consists of a dozen different people with different goals.

I prefer employers who list a salary range, according to experience/qualifications, and negotiate from there.

No one is going to give out that information in public, but if you force them for a number, you'll get one which is within those ranges.

Also, one reason employers ask you for a number is because market research may be wrong. Things can change very quickly, and if you ask for numbers and they suddenly increase or decrease, this means that something is happening.

 

[Andy Resnick]

$50k is a fairly standard salary for an entry-level MechE even in Detroit.

That appears to be the case:

http://www.doe.mtu.edu/news/degree_worth.html

 

[Andy Resnick]

Something I don't understand is the psychology behind salary negotiations.

I'll echo twofish-quant's post; most salaries are 'standardized' to some degree. Partly it's due to EEOC (Equal Opportunity) laws- companies can get in big trouble if there are major persistent salary disparities between two people with similar job descriptions and experience levels.

 

[xxChrisxx]

Imagine how silly you'd come across if one asks you for a figure, you decline naming one, they in turn do name one and then you decide to object to it, because you think it's too low. Not to mention the fact that by returning the ball and declining an answer to a straight-forward question you're basically trying to make yourself the master of the interview. Unless you're really sure they want you badly, I'd steer away from that.

flip the coin. They ask you for a figure, you say an average market figure, not realising they were willing to pay more became you didn't realize you had a skill they needed.

Now what? They aren't going to offer you more, they will just say ok. You can't revise your figure, because you really do look stupid then.

Its happened to me before, so unless I was damn sure of the range they were willing to pay I'd never ever mention a figure first. Got stung once, never will again.

 

[kote]

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos027.htm#earnings

 

[Locrian]

When an employer asks for a specifi salary you give them a number to work with. Otherwise it's negotiable.

It's still negotiable if you give them a number. It's always negotiable, though the interviewee may have little weight in the ring.

Let's get one thing straight. Entry level employees have *NO* negotiating power.

Exactly. Entry level employees should try not to put a number out there, and the OP is a perfect example why - almost any number will be wrong, either too high or too low. If someone tosses the application because it isn't there, they don't know what they're doing.

I will say I've seen examples of where an entry level candidates managed to negotiate small concessions. It almost never hurts to ask for little things. Just don't be surprised if you're essentially taking what they give you.

 

[Locrian]

That appears to be the case:

http://www.doe.mtu.edu/news/degree_worth.html

Are you sure those aren't national numbers? The post you quoted was talking about Detroit, specifically.

 

[Dembadon]

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos027.htm#earnings

More specifically:

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_19804.htm

Do note: I believe those figures include all levels of experience, so I don't know how helpful the data is for the OP. I'd go with the voices of experience on this one (twofish, Andy, etc.).

 

[Andy Resnick]

Are you sure those aren't national numbers? The post you quoted was talking about Detroit, specifically.

More specifically:

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_19804.htm

Do note: I believe those figures include all levels of experience, so I don't know how helpful the data is for the OP. I'd go with the voices of experience on this one (twofish, Andy, etc.).

One thing is clear; it's difficult to get an accurate number. Two lifetimes ago, when the annual figures would come out we (a mixed-bag of engineers & scientists) would wonder where these jobs are; jobs that paid substantially more than we were getting since the *average* figure was well above our salaries.

FWIW, most advice regarding salary negotiations is meaningless at best. There's nothing wrong with replying "I expect a salary commensurate with my level of experience and job responsibilities". Americans, in particular, regard their salary information to be as private as say, doctor-patient confidentiality.

 

[fss]

Are you sure those aren't national numbers? The post you quoted was talking about Detroit, specifically.

http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/detroit-mechanical-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,7_IM236_KO8,27.htm

Check that one. MechEs usually do not (and certainly should not) settle for less than $50,000 almost regardless of what geographic area they are in. If someone is offering up less than $50k/year it becomes worth it in almost every respect to move to a better-paying area.

 

[kote]

More specifically:

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_19804.htm

Do note: I believe those figures include all levels of experience, so I don't know how helpful the data is for the OP. I'd go with the voices of experience on this one (twofish, Andy, etc.).

The engineering specific page includes entry level salaries. My company pays a flat rate very near the national average for entry level engineers. Starting salaries are set company-wide, regardless of location. I'm pretty sure this is standard practice for large companies, which means salaries won't vary much by location for the same position.

 

[twofish-quant]

Starting salaries are set company-wide, regardless of location. I'm pretty sure this is standard practice for large companies, which means salaries won't vary much by location for the same position.

I work for a multi-national, which means that you have wildly different salaries for different countries. An entry level position in India will pay a lot less than one in California. However, the tendency is to close offices in places with high salaries and then open offices in places with low salaries, which means that there are ten times as many entry level programming positions in Bangalore than in the US.

Within a company, there may be relatively small differences in salary, but the really big differences come in where companies choose their offices.

I should point out that this deeply worries me since I'm a US citizen, but one interesting thing about working for a multinational is that a lot of the people that you work with aren't US citizens and so have no particular concern for the United States. You aren't going to be able to appeal to US patriotism, if they person that makes the decision to move 1000 jobs from the US to India happens to be German.

 

[twofish-quant]

One thing is clear; it's difficult to get an accurate number.

Yup. One site that I highly recommend is www.glassdoor.com since that gives a pretty good number.

Also, big companies have people in HR that do nothing but try to figure out what market rates are. The main reason they ask you for a number isn't for your benefit but for their's since it helps them do market research.

That's also a weird difference between industry and academia. In academia, at least with public universities, professor salaries are public records that are in the budget, which you can get in the library.

 

[D H]

Also, big companies have people in HR that do nothing but try to figure out what market rates are.

They also subscribe to services whose sole purpose is to gauge salaries. So do medium and even small companies.

 

[BradP]

Thanks everyone; I guess it is time to stop shooting myself in the foot. I am glad I asked.