An idea to improve kidney function

[hagopbul]

TL;DR Summary

as i read in solid state physics asking about an idea came to me reading about crystal structure

Hello All :

as i read about solid state physics , reading about crystals and structures , is it possible to create PZE electrodes and put them on kidney to create some vibrations patterns to help in filtration of blood reducing the need to kidney dialyses , as kidney problem is filtration problem couldnt we use a method like heart pacemaker

Best
Hagop

 

[berkeman]

TL;DR Summary: as i read in solid state physics asking about an idea came to me reading about crystal structure

Hello All :

as i read about solid state physics , reading about crystals and structures , is it possible to create PZE electrodes and put them on kidney to create some vibrations patterns to help in filtration of blood reducing the need to kidney dialyses , as kidney problem is filtration problem couldnt we use a method like heart pacemaker

Best
Hagop

So you are effectively asking is it would help to do "CPR for the kidneys", where you provided some artificial rhythmic contraction of the kidneys to try to help the flow and filtration of the blood?

First, as opposed to CPR performed on the heart, there are no comparable one-way valves in the kidney that I'm aware of. So performing compressions (or micro compressions with your piezo idea) would not help the net flow of blood through the system.

Second, have you found any valid references for this idea? In a quick search I did not find any mention of artificial pumping of blood/urine through the kidneys as an option...

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/chronic-kidney-disease/symptoms-causes/syc-20354521

And third, from the link above, the issue of kidney failure seems centered on the damage to the filtration cells/system, not to an impediment of blood flow through the system.

 

[hagopbul]

no i didnt find any references , but wouldnt vibration patterns in the kidney effect the cell membrane filtration, it is not CPR but more like creating vibration interference in the kidney as more than one PZE element is attached to the kidney on different locations if we use three layer approximation upper layer , middle layer , and liquid(blood) lower layer to calculate how the wave travel in the kidney

vibrational modes for kidney cell protein is not know to me but should help with the study , diffusion between blood and other medium is also not known to me so it was just came few weeks or months ago

there is vibration pattern for the different parts of filtration barrier , which is may be effected by introducing ,vibration to the surface of the kidney , although i am not sure about the exact mathematical representation , also note that there is already vibration introduced to the kidney because of blood vascular pressure , thus any pattern we want to create in the kidney should interact with it

Note : the research concept , field and idea that is mentioned above , any scientist or engineer can use it to create some device if it is workable , with out asking permission from me , or asking me to work with him on the project or the grant

 

[DaveE]

but wouldnt vibration patterns in the kidney effect the cell membrane filtration

Kidneys don't work that way. They aren't mechanical filters, they work using the chemical processes at cell membranes. Things like osmosis, and ion pumping. There's plenty of vibration in body temperature chemistry anyway from things like brownian motion and blood pressure (flow).

If you want to make a better kidney you need to first learn about what a wild-type kidney is.

 

[DaveE]

Also, recognize that a healthy kidney doesn't need to be better. They work really well for many years as is. A kidney that is failing has some fundamental problem that isn't easily fixed by a simple solution like shaking it. It needs either a therapy to stop the degeneration or replacement. Cells are dying, that is the problem.

 

[hagopbul]

Also, recognize that a healthy kidney doesn't need to be better. They work really well for many years as is. A kidney that is failing has some fundamental problem that isn't easily fixed by a simple solution like shaking it. It needs either a therapy to stop the degeneration or replacement. Cells are dying, that is the problem.

i was talking about filtration assist by vibration phenomena , as you may notice i was talking about kidney dialysis , there is few papers about its application in the industry of water treatment , why not have similar concept for biological filtration like the kidney

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/342525977_Development_of_technology_for_water_purification_by_filtration_using_vibration

https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/kona/20/0/20_2002014/_pdf/-char/en

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/02786820600640541

https://www.deswater.com/DWT_abstracts/vol_99/99_2017_177.pdf

https://www.wur.nl/en/research-resu...y-trips/phd-trip-2009/abstracts/ai-nguyen.htm

 

[DaveE]

why not have similar concept for biological filtration like the kidney

Go for it. After all in your chemistry lab they have stirrers and shakers. Maybe you'll make a fortune. It looks like you'll have no competition since all of your links refer to mechanical filtration. I would suggest the following next steps:

1) Delete your paragraph about how anyone else can use your ideas for free. We'll pretend we never saw it, we promise!

2) Study a bit about what kidneys, or dialysis machines, do and how.

3) Familiarize yourself with the ongoing research that others are doing in the field.

4) Don't be discouraged by people like me that say it isn't useful. After all, my degrees are in EE, not nephrology. Be prepared for field experts that don't want to talk to you about this. Either they have no creativity, or they are tired of explaining to people why things like the flat earth theories are wrong. They're probably too busy with their own research to spend time with your ideas.

5) Avoid mentioning implanting things in humans for now. That scares people, especially if you haven't been to medical school.

6) Study kidneys.

7) Study kidneys, and maybe dialysis machines too.

 

[DaveE]

as you may notice i was talking about kidney dialysis

Which is also not really mechanical filtration. More similar to reverse osmosis.

Anyway, sorry, I might have misinterpreted this part of the OP. Most dialysis machines don't incorporate a working kidney. It is a novel idea.

is it possible to create PZE electrodes and put them on kidney to create some vibrations patterns to help in filtration of blood

 

[hagopbul]

Thanks for the input , I can assure you that I don't know how kidney work other than it is a filtration organ , I was reviewing some solid state physics and the idea came to me , so I post it on medical section of physics forum because they know more in the sphere of biophysics

Now for how to link the diffusion equation , diffusion coefficient to protein of the kidney cells and blood flow that also good research idea

And modification of diffusion equation do to vibrations pattern is some thing like science fiction I can agree , but who knows

For implanting on the surface of the kidney now is just not working idea , I know about the fact that you should research it on theory then test it on animals or artificial kidneys then human trials and after that the health authority can review the application for licensing the device

No , I won't delete the above post , even if the idea sounded like science fiction

 

[jim mcnamara]

All of this discussion is not really needful.

Dialysis machines duplicate kidney function both mechanically and (more recently) biochemically - since 1940.

https://www.dpcedcenter.org/news-events/news/a-brief-history-of-dialysis/

Diuretics -a class of medicines - improve kidney function biochemically. No machine involved.
Pharmacopoeia per Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diuretic There are MANY of these medicines.