An Impressive Rescue: Chilean Miners

[Ivan Seeking]

The last rescue worker has emerged and no one is left down below. What a fantastic success story!

 

[turbo]

The last rescue worker has emerged and no one is left down below. What a fantastic success story!

Yay! This is a wonderful result. Let's hope that none of the miners ever feels the need to return to that occupation. It might be hard to go back down, even if one's family relied on that money.

 

[russ_watters]

- Can the cost of saving those miners be justified
Are you really going to put a price on these peoples lives? I'd like to see you say that if your father was down there. Have a bit of heart.
But no, I'm sure that an economic analysis would show it unjustifiable to save them.

You were on the 'the firefighters should have put out the fire even though the guy didn't pay is $75 fee' side too, weren't you? Similar issue: like it or not, there is a cost associated with these things and *someone* has to pay it. It's a legitimate question and the answer is not as simple as you are making it out to be. You can't just throw the analysis out the window and do what your heart tells you in all life and death situations. Heck, in a lot of cases, that'll end up causing more deaths than it prevents!

 

[russ_watters]

IIRC from the last month, the company went bankrupt and families were well compensated.

Does that mean the Chilean government paid the miners and paid for the rescues? Was NASA's involvement donated by the US govt?

 

[Borek]

You were on the 'the firefighters should have put out the fire even though the guy didn't pay is $75 fee' side too, weren't you? Similar issue: like it or not, there is a cost associated with these things and *someone* has to pay it. It's a legitimate question and the answer is not as simple as you are making it out to be. You can't just throw the analysis out the window and do what your heart tells you in all life and death situations. Heck, in a lot of cases, that'll end up causing more deaths than it prevents!

That reminded me of this post of mine:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=1793347

 

[russ_watters]

You were on the 'the firefighters should have put out the fire even though the guy didn't pay is $75 fee' side too, weren't you? Similar issue: like it or not, there is a cost associated with these things and *someone* has to pay it. It's a legitimate question and the answer is not as simple as you are making it out to be. You can't just throw the analysis out the window and do what your heart tells you in all life and death situations. Heck, in a lot of cases, that'll end up causing more deaths than it prevents!

Late edit, new post: More to the point, you certainly don't in your own life - no mentally healthy person does. I can virtually guarantee you that you make the wrong decision on a dozen situations a day where you risk death with that decision, whether money is associated or not. In many cases, you don't do simple things to help preserve your own life, even if it is free or costs you less than doing the wrong thing!

I watched and felt compelled by the drama and emotion and I hate myself for it. How many starving children in Africa died because the Chilean government chose to do this rescue instead of using the money to save them? Did I hear about this mine collapse when it happened? I think I did, but I can't be sure - how can I be so callous as to not have cared enough about their deaths to even remember, but now I'm excited that they lived? Doesn't that just make their life and death situation a made-for-tv event packaged for my personal amusement (and, of course, the advertising money)? It angers me that I fall for such things and that I place such little value on human life when it isn't a compelling drama.

 

[arildno]

I had been thinking of few things:

- Can the cost of saving those miners be justified

Interesting question.

In my view, "free market" does not mean that participants on every sub-market/branch can equally irresponsibly seek their fortunes on that particular sub-market.

There might well be branches where a particular degree of integrity can be required of those wishing to establish a company.

For example, very few branches of our economy necessitate a high-hazard work environment for their employees.

I don't see why it would be wrong to implement a licensing system for minimg companies where they only can get a license if they accept the obligation to do their utmost (also financially) to save the lives of their employers if an accident occurs.

So, if you don't want to be financially responsible for the lives of your employees, you shouldn't be running a mining company; find something else to do.

 

[Borek]

I don't see why it would be wrong to implement a licensing system for minimg companies where they only can get a license if they accept the obligation to do their utmost (also financially) to save the lives of their employers if an accident occurs.

This is interesting.

I guess this would kill some high risk industries. Mining being one of them.

But basically that puts us back on square 1 - how much is life worth?

 

[arildno]

This is interesting.

I guess this would kill some high risk industries. Mining being one of them.

But basically that puts us back on square 1 - how much is life worth?

Why would it "kill" mining?

Rather, the rest of us would be required to pay a higher price for many of those products mining produces.

And, I see nothing wrong with that.

If, for example, the price of a gold watch quadruples as the result, then don't buy one.

The mining companies left will do just fine.

 

[DanP]

I watched and felt compelled by the drama and emotion and I hate myself for it. How many starving children in Africa died because the Chilean government chose to do this rescue instead of using the money to save them? Did I hear about this mine collapse when it happened? I think I did, but I can't be sure - how can I be so callous as to not have cared enough about their deaths to even remember, but now I'm excited that they lived? Doesn't that just make their life and death situation a made-for-tv event packaged for my personal amusement (and, of course, the advertising money)? It angers me that I fall for such things and that I place such little value on human life when it isn't a compelling drama.

What does have in common the death of kids in Africa with this Chilean rescue operation ? Nothing. Those kind of questions are purely rhetoric and IMO is just splitting the hair in 4. The fact that unfortunately ppl still starve to death in some places of this Earth do not make the rescue of those men any less impressive. So it is with the dramatization in media with such events. It is unrelated to the fact that men and women worked around the clock in rescue teams to save those persons. Media will take advantage of many such situations, but who cares ? They'll use it in their advantage, but again, I don't care. We can't save everyone on this planet, but saving some of those lives is still better than nothing.

 

[arildno]

It should be noted this suggestion of mine is already implemented on a number of employer markets:
Only certified doctors and lawyers can practice their profession, others are prohibited by law to do so.

But, the employer market is still free among qualified sellers.

We should remember what "free market" was a reaction against:
The guild system; i.e, that, for example, the goldsmiths in a particular town had the juridical power to deny another goldsmith to settle in their town and practice their craft.

I.e, the guild system regulated the number of competitors, where the jurors themselves were the ones who would lose by the competition.

No such self-centered competitor regulation is present in a licensing system, nor is it a centralized state-directed system, for that matter.

 

[JaredJames]

Surely the mine owners could just take out insurance to cover an eventuality such as this?

I do agree, the cost is the responsibility of the mine owners ultimately, but it doesn't mean we should sit back and do nothing.

 

[Borek]

If, for example, the price of a gold watch quadruples as the result, then don't buy one.

From what I read this was a copper mine. In the case of copper price going up four times it is not a matter of 'don't buy', effects on the world economy will be disastrous.

<cynicism>
Not that I care much - good crisis that will kill half a population will just give some relief to the nature, whether it will start after implementing new laws to save several lives in a mining industry doesn't matter much.

</cynicism>

To get back to your idea - miners in most countries are already paid much better than many other groups of workers. That's the compensation for the risk. You want to move the risk to owners - if you don't want to go bankrupt to save your workers, don't go into mining. But one can as well say - if you don't want to risk your life for a higher wage, don't work in a mine.

But as I said earlier - it is all about the value of life. Please read the post I linked to earlier.

 

[arildno]

There is no such thing as "financially disastrous".

Economy adapts, and reinvents itself.

 

[Borek]

Surely the mine owners could just take out insurance to cover an eventuality such as this?

I guess they are insured. I am also more than sure that insurance companies will pay costs of the rescue operation up to some predefined limit. That's just another hidden way of putting a price tag on the human life.

 

[arildno]

To get back to your idea - miners in most countries are already paid much better than many other groups of workers. That's the compensation for the risk. You want to move the risk to owners - if you don't want to go bankrupt to save your workers, don't go into mining. r.

Why not allow contracts to sell oneself into legal slavery, then?

We have ample documentation for the early middle ages, for example, of family fathers selling themselves into slavery in order to provide a more secure footing for themselves and their children..

Or, another variey:
Why shouldn't it be the consumer of the lawyer product who should bear the consequences of the bad pseudo-lawyer he chose as his defence?

 

[dlgoff]

From what I read this was a copper mine. In the case of copper price going up four times it is not a matter of 'don't buy', effects on the world economy will be disastrous.

So would now be the time to invest in copper?

 

[Astronuc]

Chile's textbook mine rescue brings global respect
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101014/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_chile_mine_collapse

President Sebastian Pinera posed with the miners, most of whom were wearing bathrobes and slippers, for a group photo, and then celebrated the rescue as an achievement that will bring Chile a new level of respect around the world.

The miners and the country will never be the same, Pinera said.

"They have experienced a new life, a rebirth," he said, and so has Chile: "We aren't the same that we were before the collapse on Aug. 5. Today Chile is a country much more unified, stronger and much more respected and loved in the entire world."

The billionaire businessman-turned-politician also promised "radical" changes and tougher safety laws to improve how businesses treat their workers.

Well - we'll see how far that goes.

As for the miners -

Honors and offers of jobs and even vacations poured in from around the world for men who walked into a mine on Aug. 5 as workers doing a dirty job to support their children or buy a house. They were lifted out weeks later to find themselves international symbols of perseverance — as well as icons of patriotism at home.

Spain's Real Madrid football team invited the 33 to attend a game in their stadium. Chile's football federation said it would offer a job with its youth teams to Franklin Lobos, a former national team player who had later found himself driving a taxi to make ends meet before he was caught in the mine collapse.
. . . .
And a Greek mining company offered to fly each one, with a companion, for a week's vacation in the Mediterranean.

As for who pays -

The rescue will end up costing "somewhere between $10 (million) and $20 million," a third covered by private donations with the rest coming from state-owned miner Codelco — the country's largest company_ and the government itself, Pinera said.

 

[Astronuc]

Five touching moments from the Chilean miner rescue

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_upshot/20101014/pl_yblog_upshot/five-touching-moments-from-the-miner-rescue

 

[Quinzio]

I am really astonished at how the human mind is defective and incapable of clear thinking.

Ok, I watched the rescue and got emotional, and I was happy to see them free and with their families again, I imagined how you can survive 2 month buried alive, and all the rest

Let's estimate how many people dies every day of work related accidents ? Let's stay conservative.
100 ? 200 ?
It makes about 5 people each hour.

So even the rate of saving of the miner (roughly about 1 every hour) doesn't beat the ratio of people diyng elsewhere.

While 1 chilean miner was saved, maybe 2 chinese, 1 african, 1 pakisatan workers died in their work place.
It makes a net of 4 deads.
Now that the rescue is over, the net ratio is bak to 5 dead evey hour.

Is it a reason to be happy ? To think that 5 dies and 1 survive ?

Excuse my english but it is not my language (I'm italian).

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I am really astonished at how the human mind is defective and incapable of clear thinking.

Ok, I watched the rescue and got emotional, and I was happy to see them free and with their families again, I imagined how you can survive 2 month buried alive, and all the rest

Let's estimate how many people dies every day of work related accidents ? Let's stay conservative.
100 ? 200 ?
It makes about 5 people each hour.

So even the rate of saving of the miner (roughly about 1 every hour) doesn't beat the ratio of people diyng elsewhere.

While 1 chilean miner was saved, maybe 2 chinese, 1 african, 1 pakisatan workers died in their work place.
It makes a net of 4 deads.
Now that the rescue is over, the net ratio is bak to 5 dead evey hour.

Is it a reason to be happy ? To think that 5 dies and 1 survive ?

Excuse my english but it is not my language (I'm italian).

What makes this unique is that they beat the odds. It is a story of highly unlikely survival, unimaginable endurance, an improbable and unprecedented rescue, and one where the human spirit is victorious on all fronts. We all know that we could die tomorrow while crossing the street, or driving a car, or by slipping in the bathtub. But what gives us hope, what allows us carry on each day, is the belief that we can beat the odds. Stories like this speak to our will to live.

 

[Quinzio]

Your words don't make mauch sense to me.
But it's ok, I'd be surprised we all agree.

Let me comment:

What makes this unique is that they beat the odds.

What were the odds ?
Once provided food and air you can spend your life 600m below ground.

It is a story of highly unlikely survival

Those who survive cancer are stories of unlikely survival, not this one.

unimaginable endurance,

The millions of people who lasted for month before diyng in a concetration camp during World War II, had a much worse experience.

an improbable and unprecedented rescue,

To dig an half meter diameter hole ?
We can split in two atoms, and go to the moon.
That was an ordinary drilling operation.

and one where the human spirit is victorious on all fronts.

No we are all losing in Chile.
Because it shows that TV has the power on our minds. What TV shows is real, what it doesn't show doesn't exist.
It was like a reality show. Really sad.
Our brain can't elaborate news, but passively accept whatever is fed to it.

We all know that we could die tomorrow while crossing the street, or driving a car, or by slipping in the bathtub.

Ok, I'll watch my steps.

But what gives us hope, what allows us carry on each day, is the belief that we can beat the odds. Stories like this speak to our will to live.

What gives me hope is that 50.000 years ago we were all cavemen, today we talk via computers.

 

[Office_Shredder]

What were the odds ?
Once provided food and air you can spend your life 600m below ground.

So the first 17 days when they were underground don't count?

 

[Al68]

What were the odds ?
Once provided food and air you can spend your life 600m below ground.

You think that was the goal here?

 

[arildno]

It is a totalitarian, and deeply immoral misunderstanding that if we can't save everyone then we are in no position to feel relief that SOME were saved.

Furthermore, if we have limited resources, and one group cannot be saved unless we choose not to save another, we are STILL entitled to feel relieved at those we DID save.

 

[alt]

It is a totalitarian, and deeply immoral misunderstanding that if we can't save everyone then we are in no position to feel relief that SOME were saved.

Furthermore, if we have limited resources, and one group cannot be saved unless we choose not to save another, we are STILL entitled to feel relieved at those we DID save.

I agree entirely.

Someone commented earlier in this thread 'why didn't the government give the money to starving children in Africa' or something like that. What a peculiar attitude !

By that measure, all expenditure, other than for basic existence, should be given to the poorest. What a world that would be !

 

[arildno]

Or, since all children have equal worth, it is immoral of parents to spend a dime more on their own children than those of their neighbour.

Perhaps parents should be required to set up funds for the children that, 500 years into the future, would starve if they didn't get the benefit of that fund?

 

[jobyts]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-wives-clash-over-trapped-Chilean-miners.html

 

[waht]

It gets even better

COPIAPO, Chile (Reuters) – Most of Chile's 33 rescued miners are honoring a pact of silence about the worst of their ordeal, but one indicated on Sunday he would talk if paid and another set the record straight about what didn't happen.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20101018/wl_nm/us_chile_miners_pact

 

[rootX]

I expected so and thus found it very distasteful. I do not like how people/companies/nations are willing to put big bucks on things that are close to what they see in movies (explosives, environment, drama ).

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Nova - PBS

Emergency Mine Rescue
Engineers and NASA scientists aid an all-out effort to save 33 Chilean miners trapped nearly half a mile underground. Premiering October 26, 2010 on PBS.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/tech/emergency-mine-rescue.html

You should be able to watch the streaming version shortly after it aires for the first time, which will be in a few minutes.

 

[dlgoff]

The Science Channel is showing "Rescued: The Chilean Mine Story" now. Here at 8:00pm CDT.

 

[nismaratwork]

I have to say, and maybe this is a reflection of some deeply negative personal quality, but once they're out of the ground and deemed safe and healthy and I understand the mechanics of their rescue and survival I lose all interest.

rootX: This is a bit like the "no man left behind" policy of most militaries, which range from the general assurance that you won't be abandoned, lost, or left dead in hostile territory. There are benefits to these ideas, the first and most obvious being: Who would be so insane as to go mine coal if they knew that there would be a monetary weigh-in about whether or not to rescue. Modern coal minding is dirty and miserable, but it's still skilled labor requiring mental and physical fortitude. You can't even have convicts mine coal unless you're comfy with them playing around with huge amounts of explosives.

Many similar issues exist with an armed force... you CAN force people to fight, but history shows it's just doesn't end well. With a volunteer force you want present as many incentives to join a very risky business, and remove as many disincentives. "No man left behind" covers a lot of fears of being used as a cog and abandoned. Does it happen? yeah... a lot, and coal miners die a lot from less attractive causes such as a pneumosilicosis, but when the chance to put on a big show and demonstrate that in that particular hazard: trapped in a coal mine..., they'll move heaven and Earth to get you out.

It's not about logic, it's about marketing an image, retaining workers and that kind of thing. I find it no more tasteful or distasteful than a multibillion dollar marketing or PR campaign. The ones that annoy me are the PR jobs that serve no purpose at all except ego-stroking...