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Sciencelad2798
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- If so how, and why?
I'm just confused on whether not all electrons are identical and if they are, how they are.
How is it possible theyre all identical though?Henryk said:Yes, they are
Same mass, same charge, same spin, same magnetic moment, all of their properties are the same.
BECAUSE THEY LIKE THAT!Good luck with the question. One images no progress will be made in the discussion. The physicists can check some properties; maybe they know all the possible properties, and maybe they as yet do not. For now, just accept that all electrons are identical.Sciencelad2798 said:Summary:: If so how, and why?
I'm just confused on whether not all electrons are identical and if they are, how they are.
Yes.Sciencelad2798 said:Are all electrons identical?
Because they are fundamental particles. They have no internal structure.Sciencelad2798 said:How is it possible theyre all identical though?
Put a dozen electrons in a dozen different boxes, each labeled 1 through 12. Then get a bigger box and empty all the smaller boxes into it. Now close the box and shake it around. Then open it, reach in, and grab an electron. You will not be able to tell which box the electron originally came from because there is no way to distinguish it from its brothers and sisters. It has the same mass, charge, spin, and other observable properties. That's what we mean when we say that they are identical.Sciencelad2798 said:How is it possible theyre all identical though?
I'm still kinda confused on why they're all indistinguishable. Like I still don't get how it's possible for all electrons to have the same exact massDrakkith said:Put a dozen electrons in a dozen different boxes, each labeled 1 through 12. Then get a bigger box and empty all the smaller boxes into it. Now close the box and shake it around. Then open it, reach in, and grab an electron. You will not be able to tell which box the electron originally came from because there is no way to distinguish it from its brothers and sisters. It has the same mass, charge, spin, and other observable properties. That's what we mean when we say that they are identical.
You still have not explained why you think the concept of electrons being the same is at all related to their possibility of existing. Why should being identical or being non-identical have anything to do with they possibility or impossibility of their existence.Sciencelad2798 said:Like I still don't get how it's possible for all electrons to have the same exact mass
I guess I think that the fact they're all identical, shows some fine tuning in the universeDale said:You still have not explained why you think the concept of electrons being the same is at all related to their possibility of existing. Why should being identical or being non-identical have anything to do with they possibility or impossibility of their existence.
They are completely independent concepts that have no bearing on each other as far as I can see. What connection do you see?
On a more fundamental level, there exists what we call an 'electron field' (really, it's a combination of 4 fields that are intimately related). What we observe as an electron is either an excitation of the field or just some interaction of this field that affects our measurement devices in some way.Sciencelad2798 said:I'm still kinda confused on why they're all indistinguishable. Like I still don't get how it's possible for all electrons to have the same exact mass
Ah that makes sense, thank youGaussian97 said:On a more fundamental level, there exists what we call an 'electron field' (really, it's a combination of 4 fields that are intimately related). What we observe as an electron is either an excitation of the field or just some interaction of this field that affects our measurement devices in some way.
Then the properties of these electrons can have two sources, is that property arising by the particular form of the excitation? Or is it arising due to fundamental properties of the field?
The first kind of properties are, of course, exclusive to each 'individual electron', such properties may be the position of the electron, the velocity of the electron or its energy.
The second kind of properties, because are properties of the field itself and doesn't depend on the details of the excitation, must be shared for any excitation, i.e must be exactly the same for all the electrons. Examples of such properties are spin, charge and, as you may guess, mass.
So, in short, all electrons have the same mass (and other properties like charge, etc) and we call them indistinguishable because they are just manifestations of the same fundamental object, the field.
That is an unjustified conclusion, but even if you think something required fine tuning what would be impossible with a fine tuned universe?Sciencelad2798 said:I guess I think that the fact they're all identical, shows some fine tuning in the universe
I think in classical mechanics the notion of identical particles is fraught. The question naturally arises "how much identical ?" The identity of a particle is in principle capable of ascertainment from careful historical tracing of that particle. In QM the answer is more clear cut.Dale said:This question makes no sense to me. Why would being the same be impossible? Why would being different be impossible? What does sameness have to do with possibility?
Indeed. And we already know electrons are not classical particles anyway, and the question of why all electrons are identical requires quantum mechanics to answer (more precisely, quantum field theory, per the answer @Gaussian97 gave in post #15) . Hence, I have moved this thread to the quantum physics forum.hutchphd said:I think in classical mechanics the notion of identical particles is fraught.
This is a different question from the OP's question. Saying that all electrons are identical is not the same as saying there is only one of them. The latter is a much stronger claim (and one which no physicist thinks is true--the one historical attempt at such a theory, based on a speculation by Wheeler, did not work out).Baluncore said:You see an electron in many different places, at many different times.
How do you know there is more than one electron ?
Mostly. Electrons can differ in parity, location, and momentum.Sciencelad2798 said:Summary:: If so how, and why?
I'm just confused on whether not all electrons are identical and if they are, how they are.
Because that's how things work out in the Standard Model of particle physics.Sciencelad2798 said:Why are the charges of protons and electrons even?
I know this is theoretical, but that's quite the coincidence, no?PeterDonis said:Because that's how things work out in the Standard Model of particle physics.
No.Sciencelad2798 said:I know this is theoretical, but that's quite the coincidence, no?
Yes, according to the Standard Model of particle physics, all electrons are identical in terms of their physical properties such as mass, charge, and spin. This means that any two electrons in the universe are indistinguishable from each other.
Scientists have conducted numerous experiments that consistently show that electrons have the same physical properties. Additionally, the theory of quantum mechanics, which has been extensively tested and proven, also predicts that all electrons are identical.
There are some theories that suggest the existence of particles called "sterile neutrinos" which could potentially have different properties from regular electrons. However, these theories have not been confirmed and the concept of identical electrons remains widely accepted in the scientific community.
No, due to the principle of quantum indistinguishability, it is impossible to observe the individual properties of an electron. This means that we can only measure the collective properties of a group of electrons, rather than the properties of individual electrons.
Understanding the identical nature of electrons is crucial in many areas of science, particularly in the fields of quantum mechanics and particle physics. It allows us to make accurate predictions and calculations, and has led to many advancements in technology such as transistors and computer chips.