Are Math Majors Competitive in the Tech Job Market?

[Stress2Death]

Hi,
I'm really freaking out. I'm going to graduate soon with a BS in Applied Math and a minor in Computer Science. I wanted to go into programming but I am discovering that most of the software companies recruiting at my school will only accept applications from Computer Science majors. After doing a bit of research I started finding horror stories from unsuccessful Math majors. I really don't want to be an actuary but if it's my only option so be it. I should mention that my GPA is a 3.8 and I go to a good school. Is there hope? Would Applied Math be considered a "closely related field" to Computer Science? Any programmers out there with a similar background have any advice?

 

[Stress2Death]

OK based on the complete lack of responses I'm guessing I better start studying and taking actuarial exams fast. If you're reading this and you're an applied math major please take warning.

 

[jedishrfu]

Do some google searching on "jobs for math majors". There are many colleges who hire math majors for technical jobs. CS jobs are almost always focused on CS infrastructure work such as networks, databases and application software for business.

I found these two urls from the google search that may help:

http://www.math.duke.edu/major/whyMajor.html

and

http://www.toroidalsnark.net/mathcareers.html

 

[Dembadon]

Here's a couple more:

http://www.nsa.gov/careers/career_fields/mathematics.shtml

http://www.math.hope.edu/links/careers.htm

 

[bpatrick]

Please keep in mind the subgroup that I am talking about when I say the main part of this post:

Out of the limited number of people I know (basically facebook friends of mine who went to my undergrad institution and I took a few math classes with) who only have a B.A. / B.S. in an area of applied math (which I generally consider: stats, num analysis, diff equ, education, or discrete/computer math), only two of my acquaintances are working in the field. Zach was an Ed major and is now a high school math teacher in New York state. Becca was a statistics focus and is currently working as an actuary in Orlando, FL.

I'd say the sample size is around 10 or 11 (I was a musicology major in undergrad so I only knew a few of the math majors I actually had classes with). But 2/11 is a pretty crappy number. I can say that 3 of the others went to eventually work for banks starting as tellers and all of them have moved up quite a bit. It appears that one of the guys who did a CS focus (within the math major at my school) is working as a starbucks network developer ... so I guess he's kinda in field. The other 4-5 appear to be doing anything from selling cars to working in a candy factory (not sure what they're doing ... don't keep up with most of these people since they're merely acquaintances).

Like I said earlier, keep in mind, this may be completely normal, or it may be a strange outlier because of random circumstances in those people's lives / the fact that I was a music major and didn't know all the math majors / where we went to school (although it was a very good, relatively small, research university in the US).

For what it's worth: I feel that if I had a degree in math, it would help my job prospects. I have spent the last few years gaining all the knowledge of somebody with at least a B.S. in mathematics, plus I've taught myself the basics of EE, at least 4 semesters worth of java programming (in a typical US institution) and 2 semesters worth of c++, but considering my masters is in classical trumpet performance ... I can't even get past the HR gatekeeper most of the places I apply for technical jobs ... maybe that would change if I had a more technical degree listed on my resume, maybe not. Again this is just a random thought from somebody who isn't really a math major, but knows a decent number of them, and who also considers himself a mathematician trapped in a professional musician's CV, haha.

 

[Locrian]

OK based on the complete lack of responses I'm guessing I better start studying and taking actuarial exams fast.

Why? It isn't like you just pass a couple of exams and someone hands you a job. The entry level market for actuarial work is saturated. It can be hard getting that first job.

Don't get me wrong - a dedicated student who is excited about the prospect of becoming an actuary has a good shot at it. But given the attitude expressed earlier in your OP, you don't have those qualities and will probably get passed up for candidates that do. It'll be tough to lie your way in, and once you get here if you hate it you'll likely be bad at the job, which will make it worse.

Save us all the trouble and do something else.

 

[Locrian]

However, in response to the thread title, everyone in my department has a math degree except me. There might be an actuary with a comp sci degree elsewhere in the building, but I'm not certain of it.

 

[dprimedx]

I was always under the impression that an applied math major with some experience in other field (physics, programming, engineering, etc) wouldn't have too much trouble at all finding a decent job. As a third year applied math student, I really hope this holds true!

 

[Vanadium 50]

I would question the very premise of this thread. Nobody will hire math majors, in the sense that nobody will give you a job because you happened to major in math. People will give you a job because you have useful skills, skills you may have developed while earning a degree in math. There's a difference.

 

[gosper]

I would question the very premise of this thread. Nobody will hire math majors, in the sense that nobody will give you a job because you happened to major in math. People will give you a job because you have useful skills, skills you may have developed while earning a degree in math. There's a difference.

In the 21st century nobody gives a **** about your the "skills" you developed earning a degree in mathematics. If you don't have a little piece of paper with a title that matches what employers are looking for, chances are you're really screwed. Almost all of my friends who graduated with engineering degrees now work as middle managers in retail.

To the OP, if you minored in CS, or you took some programming classes, or are actually interested in working in the field, go ahead and apply to the CS jobs. Look specifically for the less software-focused fields, and towards the more technical fields as you'll have more success. To elaborate, look more toward companies that may specialize in simulation, analysis, or anything that will require higher-level math. A finance company, for example, will look favorably upon your degree. A networking company probably won't care.

If you have no idea how to program, I suggest you start learning now. Even if you only know the basics, you'll at least have some level of competence in the subject, and it will show that you are willing to put in the effort on your own time. Pick up a higher level language like Python or Basic (I've heard Ruby is becoming more popular, but I don't know much about it). Stay away from lower level languages like C or C++. Lower level languages are far more difficult to learn and are not advantageous to someone who is a mathematician. Also, companies really won't care what language you know, they are more concerned that you understand the principles of programming. A higher level language allows you to focus on these principles without getting bogged down with implementation (you don't need to know what a pointer is right now). If a company states in a job ad that they want experience or knowledge in a certain language, chances are they understand that not all job applicants will know that language, and they aren't going to turn down an otherwise good employee on that one point (and chances are, if they would, they probably aren't the type of company you want to work for).

As far as first languages, everyone likes to recommend Java, but I really think it is a crappy first language for more reasons than I could go into here. I would recommend working through this book: http://openbookproject.net/thinkcs/python/english2e/. It isn't exactly complete (If I remember correctly, it stops making sense around chapter 19), but it IS one of the better beginning programming books I've seen, and it will take you far enough that you'll have some idea of what you are doing and where to go from there.

 

[AsianSensationK]

I wouldn't study for the actuarial exams if I were you. I graduated with an applied math degree like you. I also focused on economics and took a little finance. I still struggled to break into that field even after passing the first 2 exams. The entry level market in that industry was crowded in 07 when I tried entering. I expect it would overburdened by now. Even if you have an exceptional GPA.

Anyway, with a math degree, I think you'd be okay as long as you have the CS core classes on your transcript. It really feels like programming I and II are the most important along with a course in data structures. I'm not sure why you would need much else in terms of formal coursework to apply to software jobs, other than HR hoops to jump through. The best thing to do about that is to try to find your way around HR directly to who may be hiring. But when you get to that point you should ask..

Did you have any internships in software? Any code that you can write to actually show people? I think working on developing these and having stuff to show people that you've worked on your own outside of the classroom matter a lot right now. I'm about to finish my masters in CS, recently completed a job search and wound up hearing this time and time again from many of the people I interviewed with. There's a million shops all over the US that you should be able to apply to with the right combination of technical skills like math and CS along with a portfolio of decent examples.

I will say that I didn't make it into software engineering unfortunately because I lacked any really solid programming projects outside of coursework. I did take a job as an ERP analyst though. I basically work with and install ERPs like SAP. Lots of database stuff in this line of work. A lot of boring database reporting stuff too unfortunately.

 

[Woopy]

why would u be an actuary if u hate it? your probably close to a CS major if you have a minor in it and a major in math, just take whatever your missing and dual major

 

[Locrian]

I'll second what Vanadium said. No one hires someone because they have a major in math. They hire them because they have skills that will make them a valuable employee.

I do think there's something gosper alludes to that is worth mentioning, which is that HR departments often don't know anything about skills, or even about what the job they're hiring for does. HR is often looking for a fairly dumb set of qualifications. However, ultimately it isn't HR who decides if you're hired, and they can be circumvented as needed. Networking solves a lot of problems that come from having degrees that differ from what is traditional for a particular job.

 

[gosper]

I'll second what Vanadium said. No one hires someone because they have a major in math. They hire them because they have skills that will make them a valuable employee.

I do think there's something gosper alludes to that is worth mentioning, which is that HR departments often don't know anything about skills, or even about what the job they're hiring for does. HR is often looking for a fairly dumb set of qualifications. However, ultimately it isn't HR who decides if you're hired, and they can be circumvented as needed. Networking solves a lot of problems that come from having degrees that differ from what is traditional for a particular job.

My point exactly. And while HR can be circumvented in most smaller companies, unfortunately, in technical fields today, most companies worth their weight in salt are rather large. To the original poster's issue, this is especially a concern as there aren't many small companies who are looking to employ/can employ/have any use for mathematicians. Outside of academia, he's going to have to search for a career in a large simulation company, a large financial software firm, a government agency, etc. Good luck bypassing the HR department in a company like Boeing. You'd have to have some damn good networking skills to nuzzle up to someone who actually has influence in a behemoth like that.

 

[Locrian]

I don't have your experience concerning larger companies. Networking appears to work well in large insurance companies. My contacts suggest it works well in large tech companies.

Those are small samples though, and I don't know about Boeing. Until someone has some convincing data we'll agree to disagree.

 

[gosper]

I don't have your experience concerning larger companies. Networking appears to work well in large insurance companies. My contacts suggest it works well in large tech companies.

Those are small samples though, and I don't know about Boeing. Until someone has some convincing data we'll agree to disagree.

Insurance companies place a heavy focus on networking, its kind of what they do.

To my knowledge, networking with larger tech companies is virtually impossible. I've never tried it myself, I just know a number of people who work in pretty high up positions in AT&T, Lockheed Martin, and a few other big names. They're always laughing at the kids who come around trying to suck up to them thinking that they might score an interview or something out of it. These people are mostly engineers, scientists, or the like. They don't have any influence over the hiring process, and their opinions on personnel don't matter much to anyone.

But I'll agree with you that my experience is limited. Personally, I think he'd be better off adhering to the shotgun theory and keeping his standards low. More than anything else, he needs actual work experience. A college degree doesn't mean much these days.

 

[Dembadon]

In the 21st century nobody gives a **** about your the "skills" you developed earning a degree in mathematics. If you don't have a little piece of paper with a title that matches what employers are looking for, chances are you're really screwed. Almost all of my friends who graduated with engineering degrees now work as middle managers in retail.

...

... A college degree doesn't mean much these days.

 

[JustAnotherGu]

Have you tried applying to any of those jobs? I don't think it'll hurt if you hand in your resume for consideration, just make sure you put nothing besides "math major" on your resume.

Make sure you emphasize the fact that you have programming knowledge and experience, and that you're good with numbers.

Best of luck in your job search!

 

[deckoff9]

In the 21st century nobody gives a **** about your the "skills" you developed earning a degree in mathematics. If you don't have a little piece of paper with a title that matches what employers are looking for, chances are you're really screwed. Almost all of my friends who graduated with engineering degrees now work as middle managers in retail.

Yeah this really is incredibly contradictory, unless you mean engineering somehow prepared them for middle management positions in retail.

 

[gosper]

Really? I stated that the "skills" that you "develop" in earning a degree aren't worth what people like to say they are, then later stated that degrees are worth much these days. I fail to see the confusion. Employers primarily look for:

Graduates with a degree in the specific field they are looking for
Actual experience, or proof of competence (i.e. code from a project you've worked on)

The plain fact that you have a degree doesn't say much. Really, these quotes are only confusing based on the fact that they are taken completely out of context of the rest of the thread.

Yeah this really is incredibly contradictory, unless you mean engineering somehow prepared them for middle management positions in retail.

Not in the least. My point being that they couldn't find work in their specific field of study, and no one outside that field cared about the fact that they had an engineering degree. Some people actually have to work their way through school, and that usually consists of retail or food services.

 

[Dembadon]

Really? I stated that the "skills" that you "develop" in earning a degree aren't worth what people like to say they are, then later stated that degrees are worth much these days. I fail to see the confusion. ...

The two arguments I quoted aren't congruent, unless you meant something other than "a college degree" by "...a little piece of paper with a title..."

Assuming you meant a college degree:

You said, essentially, without a college degree, "...chances are you're really screwed." Your other quote says, "A college degree doesn't mean much these days." Your argument suggests that a college degree is meaningful to reduce one's chances of being really screwed.

 

[Dembadon]

... Really, these quotes are only confusing based on the fact that they are taken completely out of context of the rest of the thread.

...

No, they're confusing because they contradict each other. In the context of this thread, a college degree is either helpful, unhelpful, or harmful. You didn't give separate situations for your contradicting statements, so we can only assume that you've applied them to similar situations, which is problematic for reasons already given.

 

[gosper]

The two arguments I quoted aren't congruent, unless you meant something other than "a college degree" by "...a little piece of paper with a title..."

Assuming you meant a college degree:

You said, essentially, without a college degree, "...chances are you're really screwed." Your other quote says, "A college degree doesn't mean much these days." Your argument suggests that a college degree is meaningful to reduce one's chances of being really screwed.

I'm going to put this as simply as I can:

1. another poster stated that a degree in a specific field was not as important to employers as the skills one gained in earning the degree

2. In reference to this poster's comment, I stated that skills one gained in earning a degree are not as important to employers as having a degree in a specific field. Now read carefully, I stated that the skills one gained in earning a degree were not as important to an employer as having a degree in a specific field, i.e. if you were applying for a job and had a college degree, but did not have the specific degree an employer was looking for, you were pretty screwed

3. I stated that college degrees weren't worth much these days

Part two does not contradict part three in any way, nor does part three contradict part two. I am not stating that college degrees worthless, but that degrees in and of themselves do not hold much worth. If you have a specific degree that an employer is looking for, yes it will prove helpful. But if you do not, my point was that most employers don't care whether you have a degree in another field.

Edit: I think the point you're really confused about is actually the second quote in which I stated that "college degrees aren't worth much these days". But, again, if you re-read my actual post, you'll see that I was making that comment in comparison to the worth of actual work experience. But nowhere have I stated that degrees are worthless, or that they only thing of worth. I have only stated that specific degrees have worth when one is applying to specific fields, and that overall they are not worth as much as they used to be worth.

 

[Dembadon]

2 ... if you were applying for a job and had a college degree, but did not have the specific degree an employer was looking for, you were pretty screwed

3 ... But if you do not, my point was that most employers don't care whether you have a degree in another field.

If employers don't care, why would anyone be screwed?

Edit: I think the point you're really confused about is actually the second quote in which I stated that "college degrees aren't worth much these days". But, again, if you reread my actual post, you'll see that I was making that comment in comparison to the worth of actual work experience.

Ah, I see. Then you probably should've left it out, because it does nothing for your point about work experience, which I agree with, by the way. College degrees aren't meant to be a substitute for work experience, so comparing the two doesn't really make sense, unless we're talking about fields that accept work experience in place of a degree.

 

[gosper]

If employers don't care, why would anyone be screwed?
Ah, I see. Then you probably should've left it out, because it does nothing for your point about work experience, which I agree with, by the way. College degrees aren't meant to be a substitute for work experience, so comparing the two doesn't really make sense, unless we're talking about fields that accept work experience in place of a degree.

This isn't meant as an insult, but either you didn't actually read through my posts, or your reading skills leave much to be desired. I mean that in the most dead-serious non-offensive way I can convey across the internet. It is not meant to be a shot at you as I know absolutely nothing about you other than the exchange of a few posts that we've had. I'm not continuing this, either way.

 

[Dembadon]

This isn't meant as an insult, but either you didn't actually read through my posts, or your reading skills leave much to be desired. I mean that in the most dead-serious non-offensive way I can convey across the internet. It is not meant to be a shot at you as I know absolutely nothing about you other than the exchange of a few posts that we've had. I'm not continuing this, either way.

I don't think asking for clarification of ambiguous statements is in any way unreasonable or indicative of poor reading ability. There are multiple ways for your arguments to be interpreted.

On the internet, as you alluded to, many facets of communication are absent, so being precise is extremely important. I appreciate your attempts to clarify yourself.

 

[sadsackmath]

StressToDeath - did you ever find a job after graduation? I was a math major 30 years ago. My experience is that you need to attend a very good school to get work in that field. My school was known as a drinking school. Needless to say I couldn't find work in math. I use it to take engineering and chemistry courses. My nephew went to an excellent school for math and got work right out of school.

 

[Stress2Death]

StressToDeath - did you ever find a job after graduation? I was a math major 30 years ago. My experience is that you need to attend a very good school to get work in that field. My school was known as a drinking school. Needless to say I couldn't find work in math. I use it to take engineering and chemistry courses. My nephew went to an excellent school for math and got work right out of school.

Yeah I got a great job doing exactly what I wanted! I think I was pretty lucky though.

 

[connorm333]

As a potential math major, may I ask what is your career now?

 

[Stress2Death]

I'm a programmer. It's hard to say if I would have been better off majoring in CS. A lot of potential employers seemed to think my math background was useless, but others seemed more interested because of my math degree. I think as a math major you'll have a more memorable resume but that can go either way. If you decide to major in math, I'd strongly encourage you to do a double major or a minor in a related field and get very involved in it. You need to do undergraduate research, T.A, and hopefully do an internship. That is the stuff they will look for. Also, be prepared to solve brain teasers in interviews.

 

[Aion]

I just stumbled upon this.

For all Math majors, it's a great degree. I majored in Applied Mathematics, concentrated in Electrical Engineering, and minored in Computer Science. I didn't go to a top-tier school. I went to a public university. Personally, I'm confident that HR decisions aren't always dependent on the school you've attended (although it does help). It's also about what you've done: Projects, internships, degrees, credentials, skills, leadership etc...

Just make sure that you have become highly experienced in a specific skill for the job you want. Majority of employers, or hiring managers, look for a candidates' potential to learn quickly, think analytically, be organized (i.e. time management), and have satisfactory verbal and written skills.

Now, I will admit, it's a little difficult to get past HR. You have to be very convincing on your resume. Some Recruiters will give you a shot.

I got an opportunity at Google, BCC, Microsoft, GE, Siemens...It's really just how you present your skills. That math degree is golden.

Now, depending on your goals, if you go ahead and grab an MS in Computer Science or Finance, or another field, learn a little CAD (design) and some Excel programming (finance), or obtain Android programming experience (since app development is still lucrative and new)...You'll be highly wanted and employers would pay you top dollar.

Overall, don't stress. Just understand that you have to learn a skill sometimes. You've trained your mind how to "think mathematically." That's beneficial for work and life.