ATF disrupts skinhead plot to assassinate Obama

[Evo]

Yes, I thought a US citizen given birth to a person in another country would automatically make that person a US citizen. But some interpreters of the US constitution claim that you have to be born to two parents who are US citizens in order to be consider a US citizen.

Then they need to read what the law says, it is very clear. I thought this was a very interesting subject to research since I am myself a dual national, one American and one French parent. I found that US law on this is quite clear. The US Government doesn't even recognize my French citizenship, although I carry a French Passport. France does consider me a French citizen. Some countries, though, have requirements for you to have lived there a certain number of years at a certain age, or they no longer consider you to have citizenship, even if your parent had their citizenship at the time of your birth.

So, Obama is considered a 100% natural born American citizen by the US Government and there really is no other way of interpreting it.

 

[LowlyPion]

Yes, I thought a US citizen given birth to a person in another country would automatically make that person a US citizen. But some interpreters of the US constitution claim that you have to be born to two parents who are US citizens in order to be consider a US citizen.

That is not correct.

It need only be one parent, either father or mother, who lived for more than a year in the US.

See: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/8/1401.html

 

[mgb_phys]

'Natural born' has been discussed lots of times on here.
What the constituion means hasn't been tested in court although the general opinion is that since the intention was to stop the British sticking a recently naturalised puppet ruler in the Whitehouse it means an American citizen from birth.
Ironically of course the first 7 US presidents weren't born in the USA - they were born in a British colony.

Both the candidates had at least one US citizen parent at birth so where they where born is irrelevant.

The US claims you as a citizen if you are born on US soil - even if your parents have no right to be there, eg. if your plane was diverted. US overseas bases, embassies and the canal zone have never counted as US soil for the purpose of being born in the US. The US is not about to give citizenship to a family on Guam because the mother stepped over the perimeter fence to give birth.

 

[Proton Soup]

what is so unspecial about Guam?

 

[mgb_phys]

It's a US military base in a 3rd world country that's easy to spell !
I didn't realize that people of Guam were US citizens.

I was actually thinking of "Diego Garcia", the little island that the Brits threw the natives off so they could build an airbase then refused to allow the refugees into the UK.


If you prefer, the child of a janitor at an an Bagram airbase doesn't get US citizenship even if they are born in the vbase hospital.

 

[Proton Soup]

i was wondering, since Guam is a US territory.

also, that little thing about selectively allowing citizenship to some, but not all, persons born on the "US territory" of a military base is all a lawyer needs to show it really isn't US territory. law must afford equal protection. and laws passed by the Congress that don't actually amend the Constitution won't stand up to scrutiny here.

this is all moot of course, unless McCain wins by a nose and we get a repeat of Bush/Gore.

 

[mgb_phys]

that little thing about selectively allowing citizenship to some, but not all, persons born on the "US territory"

It's not selective. You get citizenship by being born of a US citizen (it doesn't matter if it's on US soil / territory or not) or by being born to anyone on US territory (which has never included overseas military bases). McCain's parents were US citizens so it doesn't matter if he was born in a US state, overseas military base or territory.

The confusion was an interpretation of 'natural born' bit of the constution to mean you had to be a born on US soil and a US citizen, sort of citizenship²

 

[Proton Soup]

It's not selective. You get citizenship by being born of a US citizen (it doesn't matter if it's on US soil / territory or not) or by being born to anyone on US territory (which has never included overseas military bases). McCain's parents were US citizens so it doesn't matter if he was born in a US state, overseas military base or territory.

The confusion was an interpretation of 'natural born' bit of the constution to mean you had to be a born on US soil and a US citizen, sort of citizenship²

yes, i guess that would be the confusion. if not, it wouldn't matter whether McCain was born on a US military base, or whether Obama was born in Kenya.

 

[Benzoate]

OK, one more time, Benzoate. You are floating claims that have been thoroughly debunked by the press and have been abandoned by the GOP because they are untrue. Next, as Evo pointed out, it doesn't matter where Obama was born as long as his mother was a US citizen. He still has US citizenship. Thirdly, you are suggesting that somehow Obama's mother (in some prescient action - "my half-black son could run for president") gave birth to him in Kenya, and raced back home to Hawaii to defraud the Hawaiian authorities into believing that he was born in Honolulu. This is a conspiracy theory that is so outlandish that I can't believe that you might believe it. Some right-wing loon who hates black people? Maybe. A college student who hangs out on PF? Color me puzzled.

I am black , so how can I hate my own race? Thats just crazy talk! I am so sick of people labeling people who question obama's background as racists and conspiracy theorists. And I am not some right wing loon conspiracy if the person who is making these claims and filling these lawsuits is a democrat! I stated many times PF that I don't like either of the presidential candidates because the only thing they really disagree on is how are taxes should be spent. They are both socialists. I was wrong about how a child can become a US citizen if born to a US citizen outside the US .

According to http://cambodia.usembassy.gov/birth_abroad.html The child can become a US citizen if they were born outside the US and one of there parents were US citizen. However, the law says the parent(s) must have been present in the United States for long periods of time. So if Obama's mother did not stay in the US for a long time, then obama would not become a US citizen . ARe you going to completely disregard the sources that say Obama's paternal Grandmother witnessed Barack's birth in the delivery room in Kenya. I don't trust what the press tells me. I want a real journalist to go out and actually talk to people who are related to obama or who grew up with obama. How can I trust what the press says is true when 90 % of the reporters are registered democrats? I want journalists who has done some field work. Someone like Jerome Corsi, who visited Kenya and actually got to talk to Obama's brother and has learned some facts about the Obama clan.

I really don't care if obama is a citizen or not. I wouldn't vote for him either way.

 

[LowlyPion]

However, the law says the parent(s) must have been present in the United States for long periods of time.

The long period of time is 1 continuous year prior to the birth. Given that adolescence is the lower bound for procreation, that's not exactly a difficult threshold to attain.

 

[wildman]

.

I really don't care if obama is a citizen or not. I wouldn't vote for him either way.

That is ok. There are plenty of reasons to vote for McCain. Just don't spread crazy conspiracy theories.

 

[Benzoate]

That is ok. There are plenty of reasons to vote for McCain. Just don't spread crazy conspiracy theories.

I am NOT voting for Mccain or Obama. Democrats and Republicans are both destroying this country! And If we are voting for either of these candidates, just expect to see the same mess. And I never said obama was born in Kenya! But have you talked to any of obama family members who witness his birth? So you are in no position to conclude whether obama is a citizen or not . Until someone can debunked the statement obama's paternal grandmother made about the place of obama, birth, I will remain skeptical. Obama is making claims that he was born in Hawaii. Obama family members(at least on his dad side) claims that he was born in kenya. Someone is lying.

 

[OrbitalPower]

How far on the extreme right do you have to be to believe John McCain is a socialist? Socialism means worker control of factories, and nobody in the race is advocating this, except maybe a socialist party.

Do these extreme right-wing libertarians want the corporations running EVERYTHING?

You are advocating extreme, unlogical Ron Paul like conspiracy theories about the world that are ridiculous to students of politics.

 

[LightbulbSun]

I am black , so how can I hate my own race? Thats just crazy talk!

*Facepalm* You can be a racist against your own race.

 

[Benzoate]

How far on the extreme right do you have to be to believe John McCain is a socialist? Socialism means worker control of factories, and nobody in the race is advocating this, except maybe a socialist party.

Do these extreme right-wing libertarians want the corporations running EVERYTHING?

You are advocating extreme, unlogical Ron Paul like conspiracy theories about the world that are ridiculous to students of politics.

We don't lived under a true capitalist economy. Countries that have economies closed to an ideal free market would be places like Hong Kong and Switzerland. Nor is are healthcare system completely private. For the past 70 years, Even though politicians in the past have said they would eradicated wasteful government programs , the size of government has grown under every adminstration and are national debt grown exponentially.

Social Security is a program maintained and regulated by our government. Now the US government owns two major banks know for lending out housing loans. What do you called that if that is not a form of socialism. When I mean socialism, I mean we are heading towards the direction of socialism. We need to be heading in a direction where the size of government is small, meaning we pay mainly the US military,not of course to finance a war where we were never attack, not subsidize every person or groups needs, whether they be idaho farmers, or research scientists or any other special interest group

 

[Benzoate]

*Facepalm* You can be a racist against your own race.

Well not in this case. The only racists are those who are OBSESS with race, whether they be the neo-nazis or the black panthers . Collectivists are racists by nature. Not voting for Obama doesn't make you a racist.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I am NOT voting for Mccain or Obama. Democrats and Republicans are both destroying this country! And If we are voting for either of these candidates, just expect to see the same mess. And I never said obama was born in Kenya! But have you talked to any of obama family members who witness his birth? So you are in no position to conclude whether obama is a citizen or not . Until someone can debunked the statement obama's paternal grandmother made about the place of obama, birth, I will remain skeptical. Obama is making claims that he was born in Hawaii. Obama family members(at least on his dad side) claims that he was born in kenya. Someone is lying.

First of all, you have no evidence to support this silly claim, and Obama has made his birth certificate available. You are engaging in blatant crackpottery, which completely discredits anything that you have to say. What's more, factcheck has a photo of Obama's birth announcement in the local paper.

In fact, the conspiracy would need to be even deeper than our colleagues realized. In late July, a researcher looking to dig up dirt on Obama instead found a birth announcement that had been published in the Honolulu Advertiser on Sunday, Aug. 13, 1961

[see photo]

The announcement was posted by a pro-Hillary Clinton blogger who grudgingly concluded that Obama "likely" was born Aug. 4, 1961 in Honolulu.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html

http://texasdarlin.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/close-up.jpg
http://texasdarlin.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/page-view.jpg

So let's stop the nonsense.

 

[turbo]

Social Security is a program maintained and regulated by our government. Now the US government owns two major banks know for lending out housing loans. What do you called that if that is not a form of socialism. When I mean socialism, I mean we are heading towards the direction of socialism. We need to be heading in a direction where the size of government is small, meaning we pay mainly the US military,not of course to finance a war where we were never attack, not subsidize every person or groups needs, whether they be idaho farmers, or research scientists or any other special interest group

Is socialism any use of public funds with which you disagree? If so, we might have some interesting (if not productive) talks.

 

[Benzoate]

First of all, you have no evidence to support this silly claim, and Obama has made his birth certificate available. You are engaging in blatant crackpottery, which completely discredits anything that you have to say. What's more, factcheck has a photo of Obama's birth announcement in the local paper.

websites can lie, just like any other media outlet. Berg claims he has an audiotape of Obama's paternal grandmother saying that she recalls Obama being born in some delivery room in Kenya. He says that the audiotape is in her native language and is waiting to be translated into english. I never said that Obama was not born in Hawaii. I said people would go insane and start riots in the street if they it really did turn out that Obama was not a US citizen because they will feel that there vote has been wasted. Yep, gullible people would not start riots in the street because are US constitution has been corroded and stamped upon. No , they would start riots in the streets because some politician turned out not to be a US citizen. Until Berg releases an audiotape where obama's grandmother supposedly claims that Obama was born in Kenya, then I will make my decision about obama's true birthplace. But my main concern is his birthplace or his religious background, or if he went to Harvard and became President of the Law Review , or if he will be the first black president, but the policies he(or Mccain) plans to implement once he(or mccain) becomes President. His policies(nor Mccain's policies) mesh with my political philosophies. Both candidates want bigger government, want to continue a foreign policy where the american government sticks there nose in every other country's business. The America I would like to see is the America that Thomas Paine envisioned for this country.


http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html

http://texasdarlin.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/close-up.jpg
http://texasdarlin.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/page-view.jpg

So let's stop the nonsense.[/QUOTE]

 

[Astronuc]

Now the US government owns two major banks know for lending out housing loans.

I'm not sure if this refers to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac (the two GSE's), or two of the several other financial institutions in which the government bought stock (took equity) or not.

The government stepped in because various financial institutions were negligent and in some cases fraudulent in handling the finances.

So what is the viable alternative - let the entire economy collapse?

Should we allow the economy to run by corporate oligarchs (like the Russian economy)?

Capitalism was given free rein in the US, and many of those who had the responsibility to make the free market work blew it big time. And now the rest of us bail them out.

Dishonesty and corruption undermined capitalism, just as it can undermine any socialist system.

 

[turbo]

websites can lie, just like any other media outlet. Berg claims he has an audiotape of Obama's paternal grandmother saying that she recalls Obama being born in some delivery room in Kenya.

You haven't been paying attention. It doesn't matter if Obama was born on Mars. He was born to a citizen of the US. She was a full citizen of the US and had not renounced that citizenship. You are beating a dead horse - for what reason I know not.

 

[Benzoate]

I'm not sure if this refers to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac (the two GSE's), or two of the several other financial institutions in which the government bought stock (took equity) or not.

The government stepped in because various financial institutions were negligent and in some cases fraudulent in handling the finances.

So what is the viable alternative - let the entire economy collapse?

Should we allow the economy to run by corporate oligarchs (like the Russian economy)?

Capitalism was given free rein in the US, and many of those who had the responsibility to make the free market work blew it big time. And now the rest of us bail them out.

Dishonesty and corruption undermined capitalism, just as it can undermine any socialist system.

We are not practicing true capitalism. We are practicing a mutant form of capitalism, where government lies in bed with corporations, receiving tax breaks, money grants, and other subsidies from the federal government. Certain businesses are being favored by the government over other businesses.

But there was already government oversight over Fannie Mae and Freddie MAc. Governmen.t told those institutions to lend to homeowners who did not have the proper credit score. Congress pressure financial institutions to lend money to recipients that were considered high risked homebuyers . Congressman Frank and Senator Dodd wrote legislation that would forced these institutions that would lend to buyers who were not able to afford a house. Up until recently, Our congress people were cheerleaders for these financial lending institutions.

If I had a small business that gave out loans to people, and my business failed, the government would not bail me out. Businesses fail all the time. New businesses would likely replaced the institutions that have failed.

 

[Astronuc]

Governmen.t told those institutions to lend to homeowners who did not have the proper credit score.

Please provide the evidence to support this claim, which I've heard frequently recently.

The CRA mandated that companies not discriminate. I don't see where it forced companies to make fraudulent mortgages/loans, or loans to 'unqualified buyers/lenders'. The objective was to stop discrimination. How the companies put that into practice was up to them.

 

[Benzoate]

Please provide the evidence to support this claim, which I've heard frequently recently.

The CRA mandated that companies not discriminate. I don't see where it forced companies to make fraudulent mortgages/loans, or loans to 'unqualified buyers/lenders'. The objective was to stop discrimination. How the companies put that into practice was up to them.

Watch John Stossel's special Politically Incorrect guide to politics. He interviews economists who've said that deregulations of the housing financial markets isn't the reason Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac have failed.

 

[turbo]

Please provide the evidence to support this claim, which I've heard frequently recently.

The CRA mandated that companies not discriminate. I don't see where it forced companies to make fraudulent mortgages/loans, or loans to 'unqualified buyers/lenders'. The objective was to stop discrimination. How the companies put that into practice was up to them.

The blame extends all the way down to the realtors. It's easy to point the finger at one group or another, but the housing bubble was a boon to a LOT of people all up and down the food-chain.

Let's say that a modest home sold for $100,000 at the standard (around here, anyway) realtor's commission of 7%. The agency gets half of the commission ($3500), the listing agent gets a quarter ($1750), and the selling agent gets a quarter ($1750). You've got agents helping buyers decide how much of a mortgage they can afford, and advising them about filling out credit applications... "The way housing prices are soaring, you'll be able to re-finance before the adjustable rate ever kicks in." "Just put down any income level that you think will allow you to make the payments. You'll be making more money in the future, anyway. They'll never check."

There is plenty of blame to go around, though the bubble probably couldn't have gotten so badly out-of-control if the speculators were not allowed to bundle the debt and resell it. Years ago, if you borrowed money from your bank to buy a house, they held the mortgage and they were on the hook if you defaulted. For this reason, they were quite diligent in their evaluation of your finances, the value of the home in question, the trends in the local real-estate market, etc, etc. That connection between borrower and lender is lost today, and lenders make deals, collect their closing costs and points, and pass on the note to a holding company who bundles and resells it.

 

[Astronuc]

Yesterday, I listened to a bank president being interviewed on NPR. He talked about how his bank didn't get into subprime loans, and in fact, rejected a number of applications during the review process. In one case, one of their agents questioned a couple who claimed they made $150K income. They mentioned that they earned about $90K. Asked why they had put $150 K, the couple informed the reviewer that they were told to put that in order to qualify for the loan!

Texas Banks Draw On Lessons From The S&L Crisis
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=96260663

"We'd ask the people, 'Do you make $150,000 a year?' And they'd say, 'Naw, I make $90,000 a year,' " Hickman recounts. "'Well, why does it say 150?' 'Well, the guy representing XYZ Mortgage Co. told me that's what I had to have on the application to qualify for the loan.' Well, we'd look at them and say, 'Sorry, we can't do that.' "

 

[mheslep]

Please provide the evidence to support this claim, which I've heard frequently recently.

The CRA mandated that companies not discriminate. I don't see where it forced companies to make fraudulent mortgages/loans, or loans to 'unqualified buyers/lenders'. The objective was to stop discrimination. How the companies put that into practice was up to them.

Here's the law:

SEC. 802. (a) The Congress finds that--
(1) regulated financial institutions are required by law to demonstrate that their deposit facilities serve the convenience and needs of the communities in which they are chartered to do business;
(2) the convenience and needs of communities include the need for credit services as well as deposit services; and
(3) regulated financial institutions have continuing and affirmative obligation to help meet the credit needs of the local communities in which they are chartered.
(b) It is the purpose of this title to require each appropriate Federal financial supervisory agency to use its authority when examining financial institutions, to encourage such institutions to help meet the credit needs of the local communities in which they are chartered consistent with the safe and sound operation of such institutions.
...
SEC. 807. WRITTEN EVALUATIONS.
...
(2) ASSIGNED RATING.--The institution's rating referred to in paragraph (1)(C) shall be 1 of the following:
(A) "Outstanding record of meeting community credit needs."
(B) "Satisfactory record of meeting community credit needs."
(C) "Needs to improve record of meeting community credit needs."
(D) "Substantial noncompliance in meeting community credit needs."

http://www.fdic.gov/regulations/laws/rules/6500-2515.html
It appears to me that the lendors are totally at the mercy of a given regulator to decide whether or not a lendor "serves the convenience and needs of the communities."

 

[mheslep]

...Let's say that a modest home sold for $100,000 at the standard (around here, anyway) realtor's commission of 7%. The agency gets half of the commission ($3500), the listing agent gets a quarter ($1750), and the selling agent gets a quarter ($1750). You've got agents helping buyers decide how much of a mortgage they can afford, and advising them about filling out credit applications... "The way housing prices are soaring, you'll be able to re-finance before the adjustable rate ever kicks in." "Just put down any income level that you think will allow you to make the payments. You'll be making more money in the future, anyway. They'll never check."

There is plenty of blame to go around, though the bubble probably couldn't have gotten so badly out-of-control if the speculators were not allowed to bundle the debt and resell it. Years ago, if you borrowed money from your bank to buy a house, they held the mortgage and they were on the hook if you defaulted. For this reason, they were quite diligent in their evaluation of your finances, the value of the home in question, the trends in the local real-estate market, etc, etc. That connection between borrower and lender is lost today, and lenders make deals, collect their closing costs and points, and pass on the note to a holding company who bundles and resells it.

Yes, exactly. I'll go further and say that the situation described in your first paragraph, someone attempting to bending the rules or otherwise acting irresponsibly, takes place not only in mortgages, but at the margins of every commercial endeavour of society. Usually that kind of behaviour stays at the margins because there are consequences, either legal or financial. The difference this time is your 2nd paragraph, the wholesale bundling of the risk by the bullet proof (for awhile) GSEs so that there were no consequences to the actions described in the first.

 

[Astronuc]

It appears to me that the lendors are totally at the mercy of a given regulator to decide whether or not a lendor "serves the convenience and needs of the communities."

All it means is that a bank provides banking services in the community in which they have an office, i.e. they can't take deposits in an area, and then refuse to provide banking services in that area. They are not forced to give mortgages at all, if the bank doesn't provide mortgages, and they are certainly not obliged or forced to give sub-prime mortgages. The point of the CRA was to prohibit discrimination, which was a big problem still in the early 70's.

 

[mheslep]

All it means is that a bank provides banking services in the community in which they have an office, i.e. they can't take deposits in an area, and then refuse to provide banking services in that area. They are not forced to give mortgages at all, if the bank doesn't provide mortgages, and they are certainly not obliged or forced to give sub-prime mortgages. ...

How do you know this given the letter of the law? All that is required is for a regulator to assess that a bank doing business in the area, in his/her mostly subjective opinion, is failing to meet the 'communities needs'. The bank might very well find that it continues to be cited for 'failing to meet needs' until it either a) gives up and stops doing business in the area, or b) agrees to make bad credit loans. I don't have evidence that this has been the case, but as I read the law it logically enables such actions.

 

[NeoDevin]

I don't have evidence that this has been the case

Then why are you claiming it is the cause of the current crisis?

 

[mheslep]

Then why are you claiming it is the cause of the current crisis?

Why are you attributing to me things I never said?

 

[NeoDevin]

Why are you attributing to me things I never said?

Sorry, I was thinking one of Benzoate's posts was yours. I retract my question.

 

[LowlyPion]

This thread has been sent so far afield that it should be shot as some rogue thread or renamed or something. I went back looking for where it was that anyone actually discussed the original post and I really think that after post 8 or so some variant strain of Forum Alzheimers or Chat Site Dementia has set in.

ATF - the government agency that in Palin's America is named for a shopping list?

Now that was funny and that's not even from this thread.

 

[Evo]

This thread has been sent so far afield that it should be shot as some rogue thread or renamed or something. I went back looking for where it was that anyone actually discussed the original post and I really think that after post 8 or so some variant strain of Forum Alzheimers or Chat Site Dementia has set in.

ATF - the government agency that in Palin's America is named for a shopping list?

Now that was funny and that's not even from this thread.

Yep, thread closed.