Atomic Models: Overlapping N Levels & Possible Alternatives

In summary: Quantum theory is the most accurate theory we know and we have not found a single experiment that would quantitatively or qualitatively disagree with its predictions.
  • #1
jerryscan
10
1
Have atomic models been proposed that do not have overlapping N levels?
 
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  • #2
What is "overlapping N levels"?

Zz.
 
  • #3
For example orbital 4s2 fills before orbital 3d10. N level 4 overlaps with N level 3.
 
  • #4
The atomic models can be experimentally verified using photonic spectra. The only one we have right now, even though it was shaped up as far back as in the 1920s, is the only one meeting experimental confirmation.
 
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  • #5
jerryscan said:
For example orbital 4s2 fills before orbital 3d10. N level 4 overlaps with N level 3.

I've never heard of that being called "overlap". That a very poor description of it.

I'm not sure what the question means. Why would anyone propose a model that isn't supported by experiment?

Zz.
 
  • #6
I understand the current model predicts 24 Cr to fill [Ar] 3d4 4s2 but actually fills [Ar] 3d5 4s1. Doesn't that show there might be something wrong with the model?
 
  • #7
jerryscan said:
I understand the current model predicts 24 Cr to fill [Ar] 3d4 4s2 but actually fills [Ar] 3d5 4s1. Doesn't that show there might be something wrong with the model?

No.

Zz.
 
  • #8
How is the current model supported by experiment to explain electrons filling the orbitals of 24 Cr?
 
  • #9
What precisely do you mean with "current model"? Quantum theory or density functional (or other) approaches for the approximate calculation of term schemes?

Cheers,

Jazz
 
  • #10
Quantum theory.
 
  • #11
jerryscan said:
Quantum theory.

It is quantum theory that predicts and explain such orbital filling, ie why the 4s is filled ahead of the 3d.

This is puzzling. Unless you have a specific question to understand this phenomenon, then this thread has no specific purpose.

Zz.
 
  • #12
ZapperZ said:
This is puzzling. Unless you have a specific question to understand this phenomenon, then this thread has no specific purpose.

Well I think the purpose is the same as for the other theads jerryscan has created to promote his "new atomic model" that is so much better than quantum theory and will become the new standard, undoubtedly.

Cheers,

Jazz
 
  • #13
ZapperZ said:
It is quantum theory that predicts and explain such orbital filling, ie why the 4s is filled ahead of the 3d.

This is puzzling. Unless you have a specific question to understand this phenomenon, then this thread has no specific purpose.

Zz.

How exactly does quantum theory predict and explain why 24 Cr fills [Ar] 3d5 4s1 and not [Ar] 3d4 4s2?
 
  • #14
jerryscan said:
How exactly does quantum theory predict and explain why 24 Cr fills [Ar] 3d5 4s1 and not [Ar] 3d4 4s2?

Because it calculates the energy required to fill all of those! It predicts shielding effects, and it shows that since the symmetry of the 3d orbitals extends further from the nucleus, on average, than the 4s orbital, the 3d will NOT have a lower energy than the 4s in terms of filling up the orbitals!

There is no mystery here. This is a very standard topic in quantum chemistry topic, something you would have discovered had you try looking it up.

Zz.
 
  • #15
ZapperZ said:
Because it calculates the energy required to fill all of those! It predicts shielding effects, and it shows that since the symmetry of the 3d orbitals extends further from the nucleus, on average, than the 4s orbital, the 3d will NOT have a lower energy than the 4s in terms of filling up the orbitals!

There is no mystery here. This is a very standard topic in quantum chemistry topic, something you would have discovered had you try looking it up.

Zz.

Thanks ZapperZ Physics Forums values civility
• Positive and compassionate attitudes
• Patience and diplomacy while debating
 
  • #16
jerryscan said:
Quantum theory.

This is hilarious. You seem to be unaware that the energy levels of atoms are the result of approximate computations (like hartree-fock and more advanced methods) and of actual measurements. If the measurements disagree with the result of the computation, then the approximations and improved until all relevant aspects are included to the point of at least structural (and that includes the energy order) agreement.

Everything you said here and in other threads suggests to me that you are mistaking the term schemes and filling rules for actually constituting quantum theory, which couldn't be more wrong. You also ignore the fact that quantum theory is the most accurate theory we know and we have not found a single experiment that would quantitatively or qualitatively disagree with its predictions.

That all just in case you don't understand why you're not being taken serious.

Cheers,

Jazz
 

FAQ: Atomic Models: Overlapping N Levels & Possible Alternatives

What is an atomic model?

An atomic model is a representation of the structure and behavior of an atom. It is used to explain the properties and interactions of atoms, which are the basic building blocks of matter.

What is meant by "overlapping N levels" in atomic models?

Overlapping N levels in atomic models refer to the idea that electrons can exist in multiple energy levels simultaneously. This means that an electron can have characteristics of more than one energy level at the same time, leading to a more complex arrangement of electrons within an atom.

What are some possible alternatives to the traditional atomic model?

Some possible alternatives to the traditional atomic model include the Bohr model, which describes electrons as orbiting around the nucleus in specific energy levels, and the quantum mechanical model, which describes the location of electrons in terms of probabilities rather than fixed orbits.

How do overlapping N levels impact our understanding of atomic structure?

Overlapping N levels challenge the traditional idea that electrons exist in specific, discrete energy levels. This can lead to a more nuanced understanding of atomic structure, as well as new insights into the behavior and properties of atoms.

What are some practical applications of overlapping N levels in atomic models?

The concept of overlapping N levels has led to advancements in fields such as materials science, where understanding the behavior of electrons is crucial in developing new materials with specific properties. It has also contributed to the development of technologies such as lasers and transistors.

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