Beginning Physics Studies at Age 39: Is it Nuts?

[Andrew]

From a cursory glance, this seems to be a commonly posed question. While, I do apologize for what may be duplication, I hope people will keep in mind that as each individual's circumstances are unique, so may the opinions & answers they engender.

I am considering going back to university to study physics & astronomy for the fall '21 semester (as alumni, I have until mid June to apply '21). I will be 39 years of age at that point in time. My first undergrad. degree was in arts, so even with transfer of credits, I'm still looking at 3 to 3.5 years to complete the undergrad program. My intention is to go all the way; complete a PhD & build a career in the field. While a certain amount of age bias may exist, I've learned that desire, talent, work ethic, & interpersonal skills go a long way in mitigating any barriers, systemic or otherwise.

To outline my situation, I'm single, I have no dependents, I have minimal expenditures & few obligations. I don't have a brilliant career job that I would be giving up in order to pursue this. Other than financial freedom, I'm as free as a person my age could be. I'm well aware that no one enters the sciences for fortune, and my desire is driven purely by curiosity. For my entire life I have been fascinated by the grand questions. I want to be a part of the human endeavour to answer those questions from a scientific standpoint.

I know it will be a financial sacrifice for the next 5 years (give or take), which I'm willing to make. Beyond that, from what I understand, PhD's are usually fully funded & may also have income from teaching or other research work. Is it really the case that at the PhD level, one is able to cover all of their living costs, without loans etc.? Accruing major debt at age 47 isn't the most ideal scenario, & while financial security in middle & older age is always a consideration, I'm not looking to retire by age 60 either. If all went well with this, I would hope to continue working so long as the mind & body were in agreement.

I've underachieved. I've sold myself short, & starved my potential. I've always taken the path of lesser resistance because of fear. I've too often allowed my decisions to be dictated by all the reasons to 'not' do a thing, instead of the reasons 'to' do a thing.

I've been blessed with opportunity & ability, & I don't want to look back at 49, 59 & 69 with regret.

Is this rational & feasible, or I am totally nuts for even contemplating such an undertaking at this point in life? Any & all opinions & experiences are welcomed.

Thanks in advance.

 

[bob012345]

Given what you have described I think you would be nuts not to pursue your dream! Only consider that there may be some ways to potentially minimize the financial impact of going back to school you should explore. I wish you great success!

 

[MathematicalPhysicist]

If the chances of failure don't deter you then do pursue it.

If you don't try you'll never fail...

 

[Vanadium 50]

Comment #1: "Beginning Physics Studies at Age 39: Is it Nuts?: Does it matter what we think?

Comment #2: You're going to be 50 someday no matter what. Do you want to be 50 with or without a PhD in physics?

Comment #3: You need to seriously plan for retirement. You'll end your postdocs around age 55 or so. So you have a decade, maybe a little longer, to fund your retirement. And that's it. Don't completely count on social security either: its benefits are based on the top 35 years of income - assuming you started work at 18, that's 21 so far, plus 10 post-postdoc, or 31. The other four years are zero.

This career may be possible, but if you aren't careful, lucky or both, it may be a "work 'till ya' die" kind of career.

 

[PeroK]

For my entire life I have been fascinated by the grand questions. I want to be a part of the human endeavour to answer those questions from a scientific standpoint.

You asked for opinions, I think this is too idealistic. There must be alternatives to physics/cosmology that require fewer years study, and are less competitive (only the very best get onto PhD programs in the first place).

If you said you want to do a physics degree because you want to be a high school physics teacher, then that is a lot more realistic. If you consider ending up a high school physics teacher as a massive achievement to be proud of, then fine. But, if that sounds like failure, then your feet are so far off the ground that I'd worry about you.

The other question, of course, is what level is your mathematics and physics currently? What makes you think you're capable of getting a PhD in physics until you're seriously on top of undergraduate studies? You might get into a physics program and (like 99% of the population) find that undergraduate physics is the pinnacle of your academic capability.

 

[Vanadium 50]

For my entire life I have been fascinated by the grand questions. I want to be a part of the human endeavour to answer those questions from a scientific standpoint.

PeroK brings up a good point. Your PhD thesis will not be titled "Finally! We understand everything about how the universe works!" It will more likely be along the lines of "The spectrum of glopolium". If you want a career in science, that has to be good enough.

 

[DaveE]

Sometimes there's a big difference between wanting to do something and actually enjoying it when you are doing it. I don't see why you need to make grandiose plans for 5 years from now. Since you say you are primarily motivated by curiosity, why not start by trying it out.

If you have a good junior college available, that would be a great place to refresh your math and physics to start with. If you hate doing your 1st year physics homework, you'll really hate your 3rd year homework. Actually doing physics is a lot different than reading about someone else doing it. OTOH, if you really love your intro classes, that will provide motivation to continue and information to make a better plan.

Frankly, there are lots of people, like me, that start off thinking they will get a PhD in Math or Physics that end up choosing a different, related subject. The most important thing I learned in my Group Theory class was that I didn't really want to be a Mathematician, and my plans changed quickly.

 

[bob012345]

You asked for opinions, I think this is too idealistic. There must be alternatives to physics/cosmology that require fewer years study, and are less competitive (only the very best get onto PhD programs in the first place).

If you said you want to do a physics degree because you want to be a high school physics teacher, then that is a lot more realistic. If you consider ending up a high school physics teacher as a massive achievement to be proud of, then fine. But, if that sounds like failure, then your feet are so far off the ground that I'd worry about you.

The other question, of course, is what level is your mathematics and physics currently? What makes you think you're capable of getting a PhD in physics until you're seriously on top of undergraduate studies? You might get into a physics program and (like 99% of the population) find that undergraduate physics is the pinnacle of your academic capability.

One doesn't have to be Einstein to work on the grand questions. It may be just as satisfying to be a part of a team that accomplishes something toward that goal such as designing a space probe and its mission to another world.

 

[mpresic3]

I don't have a brilliant career job that I would be giving up in order to pursue this.

Maybe a leave of absence is available to you? With luck, if you leave on good terms, they may allow you to come back if things do not work out. (This happened to me the first time I tried it). Ironically, I returned to my old job, after I was unsuccessful in my program, and after going back the second time, and I was successful in my degree, my old job wasn't available to me, and I had to find a new one. (Failure helped me more than success did)
.
Physics grad students when I was in school in the 1980's used to joke, they were having smoked turkey loaf sandwichs for dinner. Twenty years later, I knew grad students living on Ramen noodles. I lived with three other students in a townhouse apartment in the 1980's, and even then, I went through a few savings, The bottom line is the physics pay of a grad student allows you to "survive" but not to "live". In your early 20's this is most likely more acceptable, than in your early 40's.

I find that many undergraduates go to school without any plan. On the other hand, some go in with a life-long plan like, going for a Ph.D in a particular field without looking at other available options. I think a happy medium is 4-5 years. Where will you be happy 5 years down the road. You can revise the plan after 4-5 years.

It is likely a bachelors will open opportunities, (e.g. with the federal government labs, which may provide further educational opportunities part time), in physics. Or you might find that a career in the lab is sufficient without going full tilt with the PhD. Most government lab positions in physics will support a master's degree, because these days, a bachelors is insufficient.

Bottom line, look hard into what opportunities are available in your current career.

Plan the near term. You are less likely to be disillusioned if you savor victories as you go along. Einstein's thesis was on Brownian motion, a creditable work, but quite far from the answer to grand questions. Probably no physicist gets to work on the grand questions right away if ever. The best physicists, like Feynman find exciting physics in even the most mundane phenomena, see his lectures in Physics.

 

[marcusl]

Actally, Einstein's work on Brownian motion finally settled the question of whether atoms and molecules exist (they do...). Even his "minor" contributions addressed grand questions.

To the OP, you might think about a 4-year plan to get a bachelor's degree after which you could get an industry job in, say, aerospace or telecommunications. Most large companies will pay you to proceed to a masters or even a PhD, if it's relevant to the company's work. It's not easy to earn an advanced degree while working full time, but you are single and the full-time pay (to say nothing of retirement accounts) would go a long way towards providing financial security in retirement.

 

[gleem]

I'm well aware that no one enters the sciences for fortune, and my desire is driven purely by curiosity. For my entire life I have been fascinated by the grand questions. I want to be a part of the human endeavour to answer those questions from a scientific standpoint.

So where was your curiosity when you entered university the first time? Why did you not pursue a science degree then? What was your goal then? I hope your desire to get a physics degree is not a grasses greener effect.

I've learned that desire, talent, work ethic, & interpersonal skills go a long way in mitigating any barriers, systemic or otherwise.

I assume you are referring to yourself in this statement. So where did the talent come from? Your work experience could demonstrate the other qualities to your satisfaction but talent is unique to an endeavor. How do you assess your talent? You are 17 or so years out of college with little science background if any. What was your experience in HS? Even if you had sufficient math and physics in HS it would seem you are still almost twenty years without much if any experience in these areas. You are probably beyond your intellectual prime. You will be competing with students with talent, desire, and good work ethics and backgrounds they have prepared for themselves to deal with the academic challenges.

So why do you think you can do this?

 

[berkeman]

To the OP, you might think about a 4-year plan to get a bachelor's degree after which you could get an industry job in, say, aerospace or telecommunications. Most large companies will pay you to proceed to a masters or even a PhD, if it's relevant to the company's work. It's not easy to earn an advanced degree while working full time, but you are single and the full-time pay (to say nothing of retirement accounts) would go a long way towards providing financial security in retirement.

I think this is very good advice and a good option for you. I know several engineers who have earned their advanced degrees with our employer's help, and it has worked out well for them and the employers in general. It's a slower path since you can only take 1-2 classes per term while working full time, but the classes are often more relevant since you tend to take classes that are in your field of work and interest. Also, universities tend to favor these arrangements, since they are solid sources of income with large companies behind them.

 

[gmax137]

don't give up your day job yet. Get a good freshman physics book and start working through it. you'll know soon enough if this is something you can do, or if it is just nuts.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

It is hard for me to give advice in this area without a quantitative assessment of how good you are at math.

 

[Locrian]

It's a pretty bad idea.

I've changed careers twice, and both of them were bad ideas. They worked out extremely well.

I hope your bad idea works out even better than my bad ideas.

Best of luck in your endeavor.

 

[Wizard]

Like most things in life it's dedication and hard work, regardless of how smart you are. What people call 'smart' is often just a measure of how much one enjoys challenging themselves to learn and think about difficult things. Then it looks easy to others when you're ahead of the curve just a bit. The more you do it, the easier it gets. I think people often conflate giftedness and talent. The former is innate; the latter is acquired.

Your realisation that you have put it off due to fear, that is familiar to me. There is nothing wrong with asking grand questions. Just don't expect to ever answer them. People putting you down as idealist are disillusioned, boring people. My personal opinion is that your kind of commitment and passion to do something meaningful, if maintained, is just what you need to study physics. But it is a really long journey to get a PhD... you're looking at 10 years, maybe a little less. And not an easy 10 years. If, like most committed students, you can live off passion and that motivates you more than money, then I believe you can do it. But you're looking at a long, long journey here and a difficult one. You should realize that.

My honest opinion is that you shouldn't expect to achieve tenure. You may not achieve a PhD. Keep expectations low, just do it for your own enjoyment and learning experience. If you're lucky you will also be successful. Personally I think it is a worthwhile thing to study physics for one's personal growth, but of course I would say that. There are also practical matters to consider. I am lucky; I knew what I wanted from before I finished high school and stuck with it without (much) deviation.

Your questions about funding and scholarship are unanswerable without further context. People talking about social security amounts or scholarships must think theirs is the only country on the planet or something? The situation is different everywhere.

I echo a previous commenter. Get a good freshman textbook on a subject that you are already interested in and have always wanted to understand better, and see if you can work through it. It will be hard. For example, the other day I spent 4 hours trying to understand a single page of a graduate book. If the author does not explain something in a way that is accessible to you, and you don't have peers studying the topic, it can be ery difficult. What matters is whether you enjoy it. Keep going until you acquire an understanding. If you experience the thrill of understanding and being apply what you learned, then you'll know you're onto something.

 

[StatGuy2000]

It's a pretty bad idea.

I've changed careers twice, and both of them were bad ideas. They worked out extremely well.

I hope your bad idea works out even better than my bad ideas.

Best of luck in your endeavor.

@Locrian, if both of your career change choices were bad ideas, but they have worked out extremely well, then would you say that they weren't bad ideas after all?

 

[bob012345]

@Locrian, if both of your career change choices were bad ideas, but they have worked out extremely well, then would you say that they weren't bad ideas after all?

I think that's exactly what he's implying. Almost by definition doing something big and bold is strictly speaking always a 'bad' idea. But if one has the courage to do it it can work out great.

 

[MathematicalPhysicist]

I think that's exactly what he's implying. Almost by definition doing something big and bold is strictly speaking always a 'bad' idea. But if one has the courage to do it it can work out great.

or fail miserably...

 

[CrysPhys]

@Locrian, if both of your career change choices were bad ideas, but they have worked out extremely well, then would you say that they weren't bad ideas after all?

Another way of phrasing it: Sometimes an idea is good or bad only in retrospect. If the outcome is positive, then it was a good idea. If the outcome is negative, then it was a bad idea. Regardless of whether the idea appeared to be good or bad at time of conception.

 

[Zexuo]

With about five months to the decision deadline I might suggest starting to work through a calculus textbook to filter this idea. If you can handle studying it, firming up the requisite math skills, seeking help as necessary, and find yourself hungry for more then you can take that as a sign to keep going. Otherwise, I'd pass on the idea.

 

[SuperMaser]

From a cursory glance, this seems to be a commonly posed question. While, I do apologize for what may be duplication, I hope people will keep in mind that as each individual's circumstances are unique, so may the opinions & answers they engender.

I am considering going back to university to study physics & astronomy for the fall '21 semester (as alumni, I have until mid June to apply '21). I will be 39 years of age at that point in time. My first undergrad. degree was in arts, so even with transfer of credits, I'm still looking at 3 to 3.5 years to complete the undergrad program. My intention is to go all the way; complete a PhD & build a career in the field. While a certain amount of age bias may exist, I've learned that desire, talent, work ethic, & interpersonal skills go a long way in mitigating any barriers, systemic or otherwise...

I did pretty much the same and was even older than you. However, I was completely financial independent after a rather successful careers before I enrolled to an undergrad program and then PhD.

IMO, it would be a very bad idea if you had not attained financial security. First, you need to spend 4 years to finish your undergrad degree. Then average PhD physics would take 6 years to complete. After that, under current academic environment, you would be lucky to find a tenure track assistant position after 2-3 years of postdoc. Therefore you are looking for 12-13 years of education before making yourself available in academic job market. By that time, you will be 50+ years old and your chance to build a career in Physics is very low. The risk of landing a tenure track position was simply too high if you have not already attained financial independence.

Another issue is indeed ageism. Age discrimination is illegal in the US but it would be very difficult to judge since the whole PhD admission or faculty hiring process were so competitive and subjective. My own experience was that not all schools would take your older age into consideration but I did feel that some schools did. Older age students enrolling in PhD Physics at top schools are very very rare which directly affect the chance of landing on your postdoc and first junior faculty appointment.

 

[Mondayman]

I am soon to be 29, and have completed a year of open studies and two years and a bit of a physics degree at a small university in Canada. I have been out of school for a two years now, but I intend to return at a later age at a more established institute - most likely when I am 38 - 45. I put off university to join the Canadian Forces. I have been looking up on what it's like to do a science degree later in life and become a researcher, and this is what I have gathered.

You have to be comfortable with math. Not necessarily a whiz, but you must be capable of learning single and multivarible calculus, linear algebra, and ordinary and partial differential equations, and then even more. Look through Mathematical Methods in the Physical Sciences by Mary Boas. Thats just the bare minimum for the undergraduate degree. So you must be 100% comfortable with high school mathematics: algebra, trigonometry, precalculus. From my experience, fluency in basic mathematics was a major downfall for many of my classmates; in fact, I would consider it the #1 reason people fail introductory calculus and physics. So spend time going over this, and don't skimp out on it. Taking courses might be a good idea if you haven't done math in a long time.

Next, you have to be open to a multitude of career options I think. Becoming a tenured professor and doing research in fundamental physics is like joining DEVGRU or becoming an astronaut - even if you do everything right, it's just not likely to happen. So be open, from teaching to consulting to working in R&D. Personally speaking, I am 100% okay with and thrilled at the idea of working on problems such as "The spectrum of Glopolium" as a career.

I recall reading a letter Richard Feynman wrote to one of his former students that failed his PhD, and Feynman said that he failed to give him an appropriate problem to solve, one that matched his capability. He went on to say that such problems aren't of lesser value, and there needs to be scientists that work on such problems. I think it was something like that. Anyway, it reminded me to humble myself. Just because you're working on some little known problem in optical engineering rather than high-energy astrophysics doesn't mean you're any less of a scientist.

Finally, you have to ask yourself why you want this. Do you really enjoy physics? Or do you like the idea of doing physics? Because, when you get into the nitty gritty of a physics degree, it is hard and frustrating. You'll be pushed to your intellectual limits. I know a lot of people who switched degrees because their inital expectations of what physics would be like was wrong. They thought it would be exciting to ponder big ideas in quantum physics and cosmology, but had their expectations shattered by calculating line integrals and emf.

But if you truly love the subject, can stomach being wrong at times and enjoy the learning process, and want nothing more than to be a scientist, then you'd be nuts to not go for it.

 

[D V Ahluwalia]

From a cursory glance, this seems to be a commonly posed question. While, I do apologize for what may be duplication, I hope people will keep in mind that as each individual's circumstances are unique, so may the opinions & answers they engender.

I am considering going back to university to study physics & astronomy for the fall '21 semester (as alumni, I have until mid June to apply '21). I will be 39 years of age at that point in time. My first undergrad. degree was in arts, so even with transfer of credits, I'm still looking at 3 to 3.5 years to complete the undergrad program. My intention is to go all the way; complete a PhD & build a career in the field. While a certain amount of age bias may exist, I've learned that desire, talent, work ethic, & interpersonal skills go a long way in mitigating any barriers, systemic or otherwise.

To outline my situation, I'm single, I have no dependents, I have minimal expenditures & few obligations. I don't have a brilliant career job that I would be giving up in order to pursue this. Other than financial freedom, I'm as free as a person my age could be. I'm well aware that no one enters the sciences for fortune, and my desire is driven purely by curiosity. For my entire life I have been fascinated by the grand questions. I want to be a part of the human endeavour to answer those questions from a scientific standpoint.

I know it will be a financial sacrifice for the next 5 years (give or take), which I'm willing to make. Beyond that, from what I understand, PhD's are usually fully funded & may also have income from teaching or other research work. Is it really the case that at the PhD level, one is able to cover all of their living costs, without loans etc.? Accruing major debt at age 47 isn't the most ideal scenario, & while financial security in middle & older age is always a consideration, I'm not looking to retire by age 60 either. If all went well with this, I would hope to continue working so long as the mind & body were in agreement.

I've underachieved. I've sold myself short, & starved my potential. I've always taken the path of lesser resistance because of fear. I've too often allowed my decisions to be dictated by all the reasons to 'not' do a thing, instead of the reasons 'to' do a thing.

I've been blessed with opportunity & ability, & I don't want to look back at 49, 59 & 69 with regret.

Is this rational & feasible, or I am totally nuts for even contemplating such an undertaking at this point in life? Any & all opinions & experiences are welcomed.

Thanks in advance.

No, not all. I obtained my Ph.D at a few months short of 39. Go for it, but seek faculty positions only in places like Mexico, Africa, and places that still appreciate good scholarship. Not that US, Canada etc. do not appreciate scholarship but they are very prone to following fashions. Now you have to have some familiarity with foundations of Physics and Mathematics, if not you may not be able to go directly into PhD(Physics) programs. Then the question is whether you do your PhD from US et al., or from UK, NZ, AU. In the latter countries PhD is a 3 to 4 years affair, while in US it can easily stretch to many years. Also, life is short and you may wish to keep that in mind. Make sure wherever you go, go for a good teacher.

 

[Lathropian]

No, not all. I obtained my Ph.D at a few months short of 39. Go for it, but seek faculty positions only in places like Mexico, Africa, and places that still appreciate good scholarship. Not that US, Canada etc. do not appreciate scholarship but they are very prone to following fashions. Now you have to have some familiarity with foundations of Physics and Mathematics, if not you may not be able to go directly into PhD(Physics) programs. Then the question is whether you do your PhD from US et al., or from UK, NZ, AU. In the latter countries PhD is a 3 to 4 years affair, while in US it can easily stretch to many years. Also, life is short and you may wish to keep that in mind. Make sure wherever you go, go for a good teacher.

That's such a massive undertaking, congratulations on doing that! May I ask, when did you start your PhD and what was your background? What was like financially speaking and did you have to balance that with having a family?