Bin Laden is also bitterly opposed to the corrupt and repressive

[Nusc]

http://www.counterpunch.org/chomskyintv.html

Chomsky says, "Bin Laden is also bitterly opposed to the corrupt and repressive regimes of the region, which he regards as "un-Islamic," including the Saudi Arabian regime, the most extreme Islamic fundamentalist regime in the world, apart from the Taliban, and a close US ally since its origins. Bin Laden despises the US for its support of these regimes. Like others in the region, he is also outraged by long-standing US support for Israel's brutal military occupation, now in its 35th year: Washington's decisive diplomatic, military, and economic intervention in support of the killings, the harsh and destructive siege over many years, the daily humiliation to which Palestinians are subjected, the expanding settlements designed to break the occupied territories into Bantustan-like cantons and take control of the resources, the gross violation of the Geneva Conventions, and other actions that are recognized as crimes throughout most of the world, apart from the US, which has prime responsibility for them. And like others, he contrasts Washington's dedicated support for these crimes with the decade-long US-British assault against the civilian population of Iraq, which has devastated the society and caused hundreds of thousands of deaths while strengthening Saddam Hussein -- who was a favored friend and ally of the US and Britain right through his worst atrocities, including the gassing of the Kurds, as people of the region also remember well, even if Westerners prefer to forget the facts. These sentiments are very widely shared. The _Wall Street Journal_ (Sept. 14) published a survey of opinions of wealthy and privileged Muslims in the Gulf region (bankers, professionals, businessmen with close links to the U.S.). They expressed much the same views: resentment of the U.S. policies of supporting Israeli crimes and blocking the international consensus on a diplomatic settlement for many years while devastating Iraqi civilian society, supporting harsh and repressive anti-democratic regimes throughout the region, and imposing barriers against economic development by "propping up oppressive regimes." Among the great majority of people suffering deep poverty and oppression, similar sentiments are far more bitter, and are the source of the fury and despair that has led to suicide bombings, as commonly understood by those who are interested in the facts."

would you say that the motivation behind 9/11 is based on religious or economics means?

 

[drankin]

The motivation behind 9/11 is terrorism.

 

[kyleb]

Terrorism is form of action, not a motivation. As for the motivation behind al-Qaeda, http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/20/books/review/20Bamford.html?_r=1":

Speaking to the F.B.I. agents who investigated the attacks, Hamilton asked: “You’ve looked [at] and examined the lives of these people as closely as anybody. . . . What have you found out about why these men did what they did? What motivated them to do it?”

These questions fell to Supervisory Special Agent James Fitzgerald. “I believe they feel a sense of outrage against the United States,” he said. “They identify with the Palestinian problem, they identify with people who oppose repressive regimes and I believe they tend to focus their anger on the United States.”

Unfortunately, the 9/11 Commission glossed over this in their report, and our nation in general seems to have a rather head in the sand attitude towards the whole matter. That said, I find the theory that bin Laden was behind the attacks as nearly dubious as the notion that Saddam was behind them, as I've yet to see either reasonably substituted. Granted, I'm not in any position to propose an alternative theory, but I'm not one to take claims on faith either, and do hope that at some point we will get around to having a more thorough investigation at some point.

 

[russ_watters]

All: Please note, while discussion of Bin Laden's motivation is fine here, discussion of alternate theories of who carried out the attacks is considered conspiracy theory and is not allowed.

 

[Nusc]

Yes but to carry out these acts require religion, no?

There are those willing to blow themselves up thinking there's an afterlife with 72 virgins waiting for them.

A friend of mine thinks that the terrorist attacks on 9/11 was motivated purely on economic grounds.

 

[russ_watters]

What economic grounds, specifically? The religious beliefs do have significant economic implications that are relevant to what went on at the WTC...

 

[kyleb]

Yes but to carry out these acts require religion, no?
There are those willing to blow themselves up thinking there's an afterlife with 72 virgins waiting for them.

Hardly. For example sake, the Tamil Tigers are the ones who came up with the idea of the suicide belt, and they are a secular orignsation. Furthermore, as noted in the article I linked above:

In looking into the background of the hijackers, the staff found that religious orthodoxy was not a common denominator since some of the members “reportedly even consumed alcohol and abused drugs.” Others engaged in casual sex.

So the religion argument is rather weak.

A friend of mine thinks that the terrorist attacks on 9/11 was motivated purely on economic grounds.

While I do believe the concentration of wealth/power in the hands of the few at the expense of many in regard to the Israel/Palestine conflict and the propping up of oppressive regimes in the Middle East is the primary motivation behind Al-Qaeda, again I'm not rightly in a position to determine the motivation behind the 9/11 attacks specifically. Also, note that while I do my best to adhere to the forum rules, they have no relation to my ambiguity here. Rather, I'm simply lacking the evidence to reasonably speculate on the motivation behind the attacks, which is why I'd like to see a more thorough investigation than what we got out of the 9/11 Commission.

 

[BobG]

The motivation behind bin Laden's terrorist movement or the motivation of individual terrorists?

I think the root motivation is a potential loss of cultural identity. Oil money creates the ability to buy Western goods and Western companies move towards money in full force.

While there's a few exceptions where a company looked at the culture in their new market and came up with a product designed to serve it, most use the same methods that have worked in the West. Massive marketing efforts to change the behavior of potential buyers. Commercial advertising creates a culture where every woman needs make-up and an annual wardrobe makeover, etc. The new market just gets assimilated into Western culture.

You can't compete against that by telling people Revlon, Gucci, Calvin Klein, Coca-Cola, et al are evil and expect people to only buy products that conform to traditional Islamic customs. It would work as well as boycotts, rants against Walmart, etc work in the US.

You can compete against that by focusing on "evil" things that Western governments have done to Arabs and support for Israel is a big seller on that list. People won't take up arms against the company that just provided them with a new cell phone. They will take up arms against countries seen as anti-Arab - something probably more important to the average Arab than being anti-Islamic. In that sense, an Islamic group is gaining respect by standing up for Arabs - not for their Islamic values.

If the war against Western countries expands to everything Western (similar to French Fries being called Freedom Fries in the US), then the offending products eroding Islamic culture gets eliminated as a by-product.

Sounds good in theory, but fighting change has been a common hobby for eons and the fight never really succeeds. It takes a certain obsessiveness bordering on mental instability to put up the "good fight". Either the culture the zealot is "protecting" rejects him and changes anyway, or the zealot does succeed and the culture declines and disappears because of its inability to adapt to changing times.

It also takes putting up with the idea that many of the "warriors" fighting for you are motivated by things completely different than you and being willing to offer those "minor" things as a means to achieve a worthy goal. So, I think the motivation of individual terrorists can vary from the goals of al-Qaeda leadership by quite a bit. Many are buying into the perceived anti-Arab aspect of Western culture and reducing that anti-Arab perception would significantly reduce the number of recruits al-Qaeda could obtain, even if it would do nothing to appease al-Qaeda, itself.

 

[drankin]

Terrorism is form of action, not a motivation.

I disagree. The motivation was to terrorize the US.

 

[drizzle]

I disagree. The motivation was to terrorize the US.

I can’t really see it as the motive. Terrorize! Then what?! I think that’s pointless.

 

[lisab]

I disagree. The motivation was to terrorize the US.

According to U.S. Code Title 22, Ch.38, Para. 2656f(d)

...the term “terrorism” means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents...

Lots of references about that, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definition_of_terrorism" in this case, IMO.

Terrorism is a tactic, which is why I cringe a bit when I hear the phrase "War on Terrorism." How do we fight a tactic ?

 

[drankin]

Religion is definitely a factor. It was how the terrorists were able to both justify and carry out the act of suicide. They had to be convinced that their sacrifice was for a higher purpose and going to be rewarded in the afterlife. Pretty much requires a religious indoctrination.

 

[BobG]

Religion is definitely a factor. It was how the terrorists were able to both justify and carry out the act of suicide. They had to be convinced that their sacrifice was for a higher purpose and going to be rewarded in the afterlife. Pretty much requires a religious indoctrination.

I think that was true for many. I don't think it's required.

What's the motivation when one member of a platoon jumps on a grenade in a room full of his buddies? Have any atheist members ever done something like that?

What was the motivation of female rape victims to become suicide bombers? Religious reward or escape from the humiliation heaped on rape victims in some Middle East countries?

Not that religious indoctrination isn't a strong motivator. Just not a requirement.

 

[Nusc]

So when the US decides to invade Iraq, is it just for economic means (oil) couched in fringe issues such as WMD, removing Saddam from power and religion? About the later, watch the video:


Or in short: the last paragraph in http://www.celebatheists.com/index.php?title=Noam_Chomsky

 

[drizzle]

I disagree. The motivation was to terrorize the US.

Religion is definitely a factor...

terrorism has no religion

 

[BobG]

According to U.S. Code Title 22, Ch.38, Para. 2656f(d)



Lots of references about that, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definition_of_terrorism" in this case, IMO.

Terrorism is a tactic, which is why I cringe a bit when I hear the phrase "War on Terrorism." How do we fight a tactic ?

Declare a war on wars against non-people.

You fight wars against other humans. You can't fight a war against poverty, drugs, or terrorism.

You could declare a war against terrorists, or a war against drug dealers, or a war against poor people, but a well-defined enemy is always better if you hope to define what would constitute a victory, a loss, or a draw. It's better to fight a war against al-Qaeda, or a war against the Medellin drug cartel, or a war against the homeless folks camping out by Fountain Creek off of Nevada Ave.

 

[Evo]

This is from a PBS show "Frontline" and has interviews and edicts from Bin Laden.

Bin Laden issues an edict calling for attacks on all Americans, including civilians, and announces the creation of the International Islamic Front for Jihad Against the Jews and Crusaders, in association with extremist groups from Egypt, Pakistan and Bangladesh.
The following quotations are taken from the edict, as translated by the Federation of American Scientists. (FAS). The edict's full text is available on their web site. http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/980223-fatwa.htm

"For over seven years the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places, the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors, and turning its bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples."
"Despite the great devastation inflicted on the Iraqi people by the crusader-Zionist alliance, and despite the huge number of those killed, which has exceeded 1 million... despite all this, the Americans are once again trying to repeat the horrific massacres, as though they are not content with the protracted blockade imposed after the ferocious war or the fragmentation and devastation."

"We--with God's help--call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan's U.S. troops and the devil's supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson."

"The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim."

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/who/edicts.html

 

[drankin]

I think that was true for many. I don't think it's required.

What's the motivation when one member of a platoon jumps on a grenade in a room full of his buddies? Have any atheist members ever done something like that?

What was the motivation of female rape victims to become suicide bombers? Religious reward or escape from the humiliation heaped on rape victims in some Middle East countries?

Not that religious indoctrination isn't a strong motivator. Just not a requirement.

We are talking about 9/11 (title of the thread). It was a requirement for them to do what they did. Everyone of them was a religious suicidal nutcase that coordinated a devastatingly successful attack on thousands of innocent lives.

 

[mheslep]

On the subject of why Bin Laden and Al Qaeda committed the 911 attacks, Chomsky's contention about any motivation in connection to perceived wrongs of the Palestinian people, as opposed to reclaiming holy sites in Palestine is almost certainly wrong. I've seen no primary evidence of this, in fact there is a great deal of contrary evidence presented, at least in the two references I'm most familiar with, The 9/11 Report and Wright's The Looming Towers*.

Though Israel was created in 1947, Bin Laden voiced no violent intent against the US or Israel until US troops set foot in Saudi Arabia in 1990. One will find no mention of the Palestinian people in any of the Bin Laden communiques, but we do see references to liberating shrines created under the caliphates there centuries ago, and it is the caliphates Bin Laden wants recreate. Bin Laden hated secular characters like Yassar Arrafat, or secular anything for that matter. The only prominent Palestinian close to Bin Laden was the charismatic Palestinian scholar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_Yusuf_Azzam" , and Azzam and his two young sons were killed by a car bomb in 1989 across the border in Pakistan.

Bin Laden's general goals are as stated in the quote provided by Evo above. We also have testimony as to Bin Laden's specific, tactical motivations for the 911 attacks. They are, however, difficult to take seriously until one knows some more bin Laden history.

Osama bin Laden is the son of the famous http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_bin_Laden" , a man who enjoyed near rock star status in Saudi Arabia. Muhammed literally walked out of Yemen with nothing and created a construction empire from the sand, along the way completing enormously difficult road projects and becoming a close confidant of the King. When OBL was still a child, MBL not only divorced OBL's mother, one of his many wives, but gave her to one his construction lieutenants. As a wealthy adult OBL dabbled in the construction empire for a bit before organizing Arabs to go and hold a jihad against the Soviets in Afghanistan. After the Afghan war, Bin Laden enjoyed notoriety in Saudi Arabia, and though his Arabs were an insignificant, almost clownish military force in Afghanistan never exceeding a few thousand, Bin Laden literally came to believe he had been a major force in driving out the Soviets. When Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait, Bin Laden approached the Saudi intelligence head Prince Turki and told him he didn't need Western forces, that Bin Laden and his rag tags could drive the Iraqis out. When Turki asked Bin Laden what he would use against Iraqi armor, he answered "faith". Witnesses say Turki literally laughed in Bin Laden's face.

Knowing this background, Bin Laden's specific purpose in making the 911 attack makes a twisted sense: He actually believed he could get the United States to breakup by means of few 911 type attacks, thus eliminating barriers to the recreation of a world dominant Islamic state. Such a belief requires a cult like megalomania, but Bin Laden's prior history supports that view.

*References on the details provided on request.

 

[madness]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayyid_Qutb#Political_philosophy

Qutb basically set out the political philosophy that influenced the Islamic Jihad movement. The core is that servitude to other men (leaders) is un-Islamic and that liberal democracy is corrupting. He believed that democracy placed men above God and was blasphemous, and that rather we should all live under the rule of God.
The Islamist movement which proceeded took place almost entirely in the Arab world, with those involved in politics initially targeted, later extending to anyone who supported the system (ie everyone). By the time Bin Laden planned 9/11, the Islamist movement had pretty much ended and failed in the Middle East.
So the wiki link should go some way to explaining the motives behind Islamism in general, if not specifically the 9/11 attack.

 

[mheslep]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayyid_Qutb#Political_philosophy

Qutb basically set out the political philosophy that influenced the Islamic Jihad movement. The core is that servitude to other men (leaders) is un-Islamic and that liberal democracy is corrupting. He believed that democracy placed men above God and was blasphemous, and that rather we should all live under the rule of God.
...

I find Sayyid Qutb's 1948-1950 tour through American fascinating. It appears he was generally treated very well in the US, a few bad episodes aside, yet he was highly critical of his hosts. Qutb wrote that the American woman, of 1948 no less,

knows full well the beauties of her body, her face, her exciting eyes, her full lips, her bulging breasts, her full buttocks and her smooth legs. She wears bright colors that awaken the primitive sexual instincts, hiding nothing, but adding to that the thrilling laugh and the bold look.

http://books.google.com/books?id=AP...AzQTu76ygBA&cd=1#v=onepage&q=buttocks&f=false
Also:

Jazz is the American music, created by Negroes to satisfy their primitive instincts - their love of noise and their appetite for sexual arousal

http://books.google.com/books?id=AP...D6DAzQTu76ygBA&cd=1#v=snippet&q=music&f=false

This is the writing of the academic who gets the intellectual credit for the modern Islamic salafist movement. All the luminaries of Al Qaeda and Egyptian Islamic Brotherhood read him and discussed him. I've only read about Qutb, his US travels, and some of his excerpts, but none of his primary writings so maybe I get him wrong. As it is, he sounds like an adult version of a high school geek with raging insecurities. The insecurities are all the more inflamed because he knows he's intelligent but finds that doesn't automatically make him Big Man on Campus so he indulges in some fascist thought instead.

 

[madness]

That's a link to a bbc documentary about Islamism, going from Qutb to Bin Laden. It compares the views of Qutb and Strauss and how they influenced the Islamists and neoconservatives.

 

[mheslep]

That's a link to a bbc documentary about Islamism, going from Qutb to Bin Laden. It compares the views of Qutb and Strauss and how they influenced the Islamists and neoconservatives.

I suspect Strauss would have had a chuckle at the relativism he warned about displayed in the BBS flick: Bush/Rumsfeld about the same as Bin Laden et al, only differing in tactics. Qutb and Strauss about the same ...

 

[madness]

Yeah well it certainly was an interesting take on things. I don't think you can get a full idea of the situation from a short documentary designed primarily as entertainment.

 

[Muppetmaster]

Does anyone actually care what some Islamist nut thinks about anything. No offence to Muslims, but if Osama is Muslim then I am the Pope.

 

[Muppetmaster]

would you say that the motivation behind 9/11 is based on religious or economics means?

Neither it is politics. All wars revolve around that, religion is just an excuse.

 

[russ_watters]

Does anyone actually care what some Islamist nut thinks about anything. No offence to Muslims, but if Osama is Muslim then I am the Pope.

I think you may be missing the point: It isn't important to link their beliefs with "true" Islam (if there even is such a thing as the "true" form of any religion). What is needed is just to understand the beliefs they actually have, who has them, how widespread they are, etc. It is pretty important to understand your enemy if you want to be able to effectively deal with them (whether via diplomacy or war).

Bin Laden himself may be so far gone that there isn't much use in understanding his beliefs in order to decide what to do with him (kill him), but remember - the guy puts out videos and manifestos that other people read and act on. So we still need to understand his message to deal with them. For example, I'm not sure if you heard, but a gaggle of American Muslims were recently arrested in Pakistan trying to join al Qaeda. Another was arrested in connection with the Bali attack last year. We need to understand how bin Laden gets in their heads so we can find out out to keep him out - or failing that, identify them before they acct.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Neither it is politics. All wars revolve around that, religion is just an excuse.

I would say religion is more of a tool for recruiting and propaganda than an excuse.

 

[Muppetmaster]

I think you may be missing the point: It isn't important to link their beliefs with "true" Islam (if there even is such a thing as the "true" form of any religion). What is needed is just to understand the beliefs they actually have, who has them, how widespread they are, etc. It is pretty important to understand your enemy if you want to be able to effectively deal with them (whether via diplomacy or war).

Bin Laden himself may be so far gone that there isn't much use in understanding his beliefs in order to decide what to do with him (kill him), but remember - the guy puts out videos and manifestos that other people read and act on. So we still need to understand his message to deal with them. For example, I'm not sure if you heard, but a gaggle of American Muslims were recently arrested in Pakistan trying to join al Qaeda. Another was arrested in connection with the Bali attack last year. We need to understand how bin Laden gets in their heads so we can find out out to keep him out - or failing that, identify them before they acct.

Islam is not your enemy, a single Muslim is you seem confused as to the difference.

 

[russ_watters]

Islam is not your enemy, a single Muslim is you seem confused as to the difference.

You seem confused about what my post said...

 

[ThomasT]

... would you say that the motivation behind 9/11 is based on religious or economics means?

It's based on the fact that lots of people are angry at, or even hate, the US.

 

[wildman]

In my opinion, the motivation of 9/11 is simple. The US is the protector of the Saudi King. Bin Laden has been trying to overthrow the King for a long time. He attacks the King's protector. Makes perfect sense to me.

I agree that religion is just an excuse. On the other hand, to say that the motivation of 9/11 is terrorism is beyond silly.

 

[drankin]

In my opinion, the motivation of 9/11 is simple. The US is the protector of the Saudi King. Bin Laden has been trying to overthrow the King for a long time. He attacks the King's protector. Makes perfect sense to me.

I agree that religion is just an excuse. On the other hand, to say that the motivation of 9/11 is terrorism is beyond silly.

Those damn terrorists are just silly.

 

[wildman]

Those damn terrorists are just silly.

They wouldn't be dangerous if they were silly. They know what they are doing. Hey! 9/11 got rid of Saddam Hussein who Bin Laden hated. I would say 9/11 was quite effective.

 

[drankin]

They wouldn't be dangerous if they were silly. They know what they are doing. Hey! 9/11 got rid of Saddam Hussein who Bin Laden hated. I would say 9/11 was quite effective.

Your theory is that the motivation behind the attacks was because US protects the Saudi king.

Why not just run planes into the Saudi king? Or would that be silly?

Regardless of why Binboy wanted to strike at the US, he had to convince a bunch of chumps to sacrifice themselves in order to accomplish it. This is an important point because that is the tool that's being used. He didn't tell them to obliterate themselves because the US protects the Saudi king. These guys weren't complete idiots. They flew airliners.

The objective was to cause destruction against a society. Regardless of the role that the individuals targeted played. The West refers to this as "terrorism". If we didn't call it that, we could just call it "warfare". It would be more appropriate IMO. Hence, the war on "terror". Pretty vague thing to declare war on but if they didn't call it that they would have to call it a war on Islamic Extremeism (which is still pretty vague)... and very unpolitically correct.