Born rule: time running forwards and backwards?

In summary: And the same thing holds for the Born rule; it's unitarity that's essential and not time-reversal invariance.
  • #1
jcap
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Can the Born rule be understood as time running both forwards and backwards simultaneously?

The probability ##P_{i \rightarrow f}## that an initial quantum state ##\psi_i## is measured to be in final quantum state ##\psi_f##, after evolving according to the unitary time-evolution operator ##U_{i \rightarrow f}##, is given by an application of the Born rule:
\begin{eqnarray*}
P_{i \rightarrow f} &=& |\langle\psi_f|U_{i \rightarrow f}|\psi_i\rangle|^2 \\
&=& \langle\psi_f|U_{i \rightarrow f}|\psi_i\rangle^*\langle\psi_f|U_{i \rightarrow f}|\psi_i\rangle \\
&=& \langle\psi_i|U^\dagger_{i \rightarrow f}|\psi_f\rangle\langle\psi_f|U_{i \rightarrow f}|\psi_i\rangle \\
&=& \langle\psi_i|U_{f \rightarrow i}|\psi_f\rangle\langle\psi_f|U_{i \rightarrow f}|\psi_i\rangle\tag{1}
\end{eqnarray*}
where ##U^\dagger_{i \rightarrow f}=U_{f \rightarrow i}##.

Thus the probability ##P_{i \rightarrow f}## can be understood as the product of the amplitudes for the system to evolve both forwards from the initial state to the final state and backwards from the final state to the initial state.

Addition

More accurately after applying the forwards and backwards time operators in equation line ##(1)## we have:
$$P_{i \rightarrow f} =\langle\psi_i(t_i)|\psi_f(t_i)\rangle\langle\psi_f(t_f)|\psi_i(t_f)\rangle$$
Thus the probability ##P_{i \rightarrow f}## can be understood as the product of the overlap of the forwards-evolved initial state and the final state at time ##t_f## and the overlap of the backwards-evolved final state and the initial state at time ##t_i##.
 
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  • #2
jcap said:
Can the Born rule be understood as time running both forwards and backwards simultaneously?

No. The Born rule tells you probabilities for getting particular results from a measurement. But a measurement is not a reversible process, at least not according to basic QM (certain interpretations, such as the MWI, may differ, but those are precisely the interpretations that have problems accounting for the Born Rule).

jcap said:
The probability ##P_{i \rightarrow f}## that an initial quantum state ##\psi_i## is measured to be in final quantum state ##\psi_f##, after evolving according to the unitary time-evolution operator ##U_{i \rightarrow f}##, is given by the Born rule

No. Unitary time evolution is a separate process from measurement. You don't apply the Born rule before unitary time evolution; you apply the Born rule after unitary time evolution. And you don't use the Born rule to tell you the probability for some initial state to evolve unitarily into some final state (which wouldn't make sense anyway since unitary evolution is deterministic); you use the Born rule to tell you the probability for getting some particular measurement result, given a quantum system in some particular state at the time of measurement.

jcap said:
the probability ##P_{i \rightarrow f}## can be understood as the product of the amplitudes for the system to evolve both forwards from the initial state to the final state and backwards from the final state to the initial state.

No. All your "reversal" computation is really telling you is that unitary time evolution is time reversible, which is of course true. It is not telling you anything about the Born rule or measurement.
 
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  • #3
PeterDonis said:
No. Unitary time evolution is a separate process from measurement. You don't apply the Born rule before unitary time evolution; you apply the Born rule after unitary time evolution. And you don't use the Born rule to tell you the probability for some initial state to evolve unitarily into some final state (which wouldn't make sense anyway since unitary evolution is deterministic); you use the Born rule to tell you the probability for getting some particular measurement result, given a quantum system in some particular state at the time of measurement.

Ok, more accurately after applying the forwards and backwards time operators we have:
$$P_{i \rightarrow f} =\langle\psi_i(t_i)|\psi_f(t_i)\rangle\langle\psi_f(t_f)|\psi_i(t_f)\rangle$$
Thus the probability ##P_{i \rightarrow f}## can be understood as the product of the overlap of the forwards-evolved initial state and the final state at time ##t_f## and the overlap of the backwards-evolved final state and the initial state at time ##t_i##.

Does this make more sense?
 
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  • #4
jcap said:
Does this make more sense?

You're still just restating "unitary evolution is time reversible" in different words. Nothing you say in this post has anything to do with the Born rule or measurement.
 
  • #5
PeterDonis said:
You're still just restating "unitary evolution is time reversible" in different words.

Here's another way of putting it that might help: what you are showing is that unitary evolution preserves the overlap between states. Which is true, but, again, has nothing to do with the Born rule or measurement.
 
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  • #6
And, importantly, it's true whether or not the interactions are time-reversal symmetric. It's because of unitarity and has nothing to do with time-reversal invariance or its violation. Unitarity alone implies the (weak) principle of detailed balance. You don't need time-reversal invariance for it to hold true, as errorneously claimed in some textbooks in connection with the Boltzmann equation and the H theorem, which is valid no matter whether the interactions obey or don't obey time-reversal invariance. That's important, because indeed time-reversal invariance is broken by the weak interaction.
 

FAQ: Born rule: time running forwards and backwards?

What is the Born rule?

The Born rule is a fundamental principle in quantum mechanics that relates the probability of a particular outcome of a measurement to the quantum state of the system before the measurement is made.

How does the Born rule apply to time running forwards and backwards?

The Born rule applies to time running forwards and backwards by stating that the probability of a particular outcome of a measurement remains the same regardless of the direction of time. This is known as the time symmetry of the Born rule.

Why is the Born rule important in understanding time?

The Born rule is important in understanding time because it provides a mathematical framework for predicting the behavior of quantum systems, which can have counterintuitive properties such as time symmetry. It also helps reconcile the apparent irreversibility of time with the time symmetry of fundamental physical laws.

Can the Born rule be tested experimentally?

Yes, the Born rule has been tested experimentally in various quantum systems and has been found to accurately predict the outcomes of measurements. However, some interpretations of quantum mechanics, such as the many-worlds interpretation, do not rely on the Born rule and cannot be tested experimentally.

Are there any exceptions to the Born rule?

The Born rule has been found to accurately describe the behavior of quantum systems in all known cases. However, there are ongoing debates and research in the field of quantum mechanics about the possibility of exceptions to the Born rule, particularly in extreme conditions such as black holes or the early universe.

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