California Fires and Electrical Reliability Around The World

[artis]

PS. I guess bureaucracy with lot's of rights for individuals and strong advocacy groups are good for liberal democracy but bad for real engineering because in situations where something needs to be done and done cheaply nothing can be done instead and all have to suffer as a consequence.

 

[BWV]

CA is unique in that any fire damage resulting from their equipment is treated as eminent domain - full compensation is due to the homeowner regardless of cause. Other states have a negligence threshold before they are liable for damages. The blackouts are simple liability management - PG&E is already in bankruptcy and trying to settle damages from previous fires it does not want to risk another, never mind the potential deaths and economic cost of the blackouts.https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ia-rule-that-doomed-pg-e-inverse-condemnation

 

[artis]

So, are there any updates, what is happening in California now ?

 

[anorlunda]

So, are there any updates, what is happening in California now ?

More of the same; wind, low humidity, deliberate blackouts, fires. The utility PG&E said in the news that the deliberate blackouts during high fire risk day can be expected for the next 10 years.

When the fire season is over, then we may expect some more thoughtful writing about the many issues. Right now, people's focus is on emergency actions.

 

[artis]

Yes I hear in the news that Cali is burning more or less constantly for some time now , right?

I suppose the fire risk is mostly from the low voltage suburban distribution lines and not from the HV large metal structure ones?

 

[anorlunda]

Yes I hear in the news that Cali is burning more or less constantly for some time now , right?

Ouch! The people of Cali, Columbia won't like you using that abbreviation for California.

I suppose the fire risk is mostly from the low voltage suburban distribution lines and not from the HV large metal structure ones?

Maybe, true. But given the high winds blowing branches and debris around, I think all the lines at all voltages constitute a fire hazard. Any kind of line-to-ground fault provides sparks. Even line-to-line faults high above ground may drop sparks to ground level.

 

[phyzguy]

Yes I hear in the news that Cali is burning more or less constantly for some time now , right?

Let's put it in perspective. Calfire lists 8 active fires totaling about 44,000 acres. The land area of California is about 400,000 square miles or about 250,000,000 acres. So about 0.02% of the land area has active fires. A major problem if your home or business is near one of the active fires, but not exactly "California is burning".

 

[Tom.G]

I'm writing this from Southern California Coastal area.

A headline on Google News as I write this.
California Fires: 2 million without power, 180000 evacuated, 93 mph winds

The big fire(s), at the moment, are in Northern California. We've had, for us, fair sized fires in S. CA. At least the ones that make the News seem to be sparked by high voltage transmission lines out in the wilds, and/or in the moutains. Occassionally human error like a barbecue or a hot vehicle parked on the roadside grass.

The high winds are caused by Low Pressure along the coast and a High Pressure area a few hundred miles East of us, in the high desert and on the other side of a mountain range. That High is venting, and being funneled thru, the mountain valleys.

The air starts out rather dry and hot. As it comes down toward sea level it warms further from compression. The temperature here a couple days ago was 98F at 6 blocks from the Pacific Ocean (about 34°N). This also results in extremely low humidity, one report mentioned 3%RH.

Fires from local distribution in urban areas don't seem to grow much, probably because the heavily populated areas are also heavily populated with municipal Fire Stations. Also not much dry kindling in the city.

Being about 70 miles from the nearest big fire, we can run to the beach and go for a swim if needed.

 

[anorlunda]

Thanks for sharing for the benefit of our members from other places in the world. Stay safe @Tom.G

Fires from local distribution in urban areas don't seem to grow much, probably because the heavily populated areas are also heavily populated with municipal Fire Stations.

How about fuel laying on the ground, like dried grass? I would expect more of that in unpopulated areas. And the least in downtown areas where almost everything is paved.

 

[mfb]

Let's put it in perspective. Calfire lists 8 active fires totaling about 44,000 acres. The land area of California is about 400,000 square miles or about 250,000,000 acres. So about 0.02% of the land area has active fires. A major problem if your home or business is near one of the active fires, but not exactly "California is burning".

4000 serial killers in California would occupy ~4000 m² or 1 acre.
Not just the area currently burning is relevant, but also the area that had a fire recently and the area threatened by one.

 

[BWV]

And the incidence of fires in the uninhabited SE desert, the agricultural central valley or the northern rain-forests is nil

 

[phyzguy]

4000 serial killers in California would occupy ~4000 m² or 1 acre.
Not just the area currently burning is relevant, but also the area that had a fire recently and the area threatened by one.

You've lost me with your analogy. I wasn't trying to minimize the damage, just to put it in perspective that "California is burning" is a bit of an overstatement. Also, it's interesting to look at the year-year statistics. Altough the number of acres burned each year appears to be increasing (see graph below from National Geographic), this year is actually way down from last year and well below the recent average(see table from CalFire).

 

[WWGD]

Ouch! The people of Cali, Columbia won't like you using that abbreviation for California.
Maybe, true. But given the high winds blowing branches and debris around, I think all the lines at all voltages constitute a fire hazard. Any kind of line-to-ground fault provides sparks. Even line-to-line faults high above ground may drop sparks to ground level.

The people of Cali _Colombia_ won't like to be called Columbians ;).

 

[WWGD]

Let's put it in perspective. Calfire lists 8 active fires totaling about 44,000 acres. The land area of California is about 400,000 square miles or about 250,000,000 acres. So about 0.02% of the land area has active fires. A major problem if your home or business is near one of the active fires, but not exactly "California is burning".

Actually, the land area of California is around 410000 square kilometers, (some 158000 square miles, around 100 million acres) not 400000 square miles.

 

[artis]

Well to be honest , even though I don't have the information about the history of California stretching back thousands of years I would assume that those years ago when there were no people the land still burned from time to time and probably without supervision it was even worse.
This is also the reason I don't understand people living right next or close to active volcanoes and then complaining that their houses got buried under ash and lava.

People often get too attached to comfort and forget that living on this world is not a privilege that can be taken as lightly.

All in all I would probably build some walls of concrete or other material around neighborhoods that are in direct contact with wilderness that has grass or trees from which fire can jump over, then bury the damn cables or at least secure the land directly below so that in case a spark jumps it can't ignite anything because sand doesn't burn, and these sparks also don't fly for long distances they only survive and can ignite something that is directly below or very close.
In many cases I see in TV scenes were the burned houses are located in remote areas in clusters and are right next to or very close to vegetation and trees in open areas, I think it is time to rethink the zones that can be used for settlement over there.
Anyway given that there are roughly 40 million people living in such a volatile land I think any solution to anything will be either slow and expensive or impossible, it is easy to set high tech standards for areas with very little population but it is much more complicated to do so for an area that is itself complicated and has a large population with existing infrastructure etc.

One question , do most of the 40 million of California live in the largest cities like San Francisco and LA? I see that LA alone has roughly 13 million, so this makes me wonder.

 

[phyzguy]

Actually, the land area of California is around 410000 square kilometers, (some 158000 square miles, around 100 million acres) not 400000 square miles.

You're right. My bad. So it is 0.04% of the land area, not 0.02%.

 

[WWGD]

You're right. My bad. So it is 0.04% of the land area, not 0.02%.

Yes, your point still stands ( modulo 2.59x ;)).

 

[Tom.G]

A new fire this morning in L.A., the Getty fire. Named that because it is near the J. Paul Getty Museum, in the hills between L.A. proper and the San Fernando Valley. The Valley is mainly residential with commutes into L.A. proper for jobs. The 405 Freeway was closed for several hours, that is the main route out of the city to the North-West, 4 lanes each direction and often stop-and-go during rush hour.

That makes the closest fire at 34 miles from here, half yesterdays distance, but with 30 miles of city between us.

Cheers,
Tom

 

[Tom.G]

Found a 17 minute video from a news helicopter showing the Getty fire.
Has a nice aerial shot of the Getty Museum too.