Can anyone provide suggestions for a book on prose-writing?

[Eclair_de_XII]

I'm re-reading through my fiction piece right now, and I'm noticing numerous problems that I did not notice when I was typing it up. These problems include, but are not limited to:

• I worry about my grammar being incorrect at times * (see below for an example)
• The focus of a scene w.r.t. a given character being inconsistent (in the same chapter/scene: Mary saw ..., John felt his kid tug his hand... etc.)
• Telling, but rarely doing any showing (it seemed like a comfy place to sleep vs. the bed was fluffy and looked inviting, etc.)
• Trying to indicate the passage of time (finally, many [a few] moments passed before ..., then after a while ...)
• The pace of the prose making it seem like events are happening too fast or too slowly, which results in the scene happening more slowly or quickly than I want it to. ("John..." groaned Mary. Then she fainted.) vs. ("John..." groaned Mary, before fainting.)
• Word redundancy (falling to the ground vs. falling)
• Usage of commas where it is unnecessary, and omission of commas where they would be helpful. (Comma after `Then': "Then, she took out her watch." vs "Then she took out her watch.")
• Awkward and unnecessarily wordy phrasing. ("The patty somersaulted in mid-air, before the cook went to work maneuvering his spatula on its fellows." vs. "The cook fried patties.")

* Example of item one:

"She leered at her enemy with a cross between cold pity and annoyance; there was desperation in his eyes, as he struggled to force her back."

If I recall my English lessons from primary school correctly, the subject is the woman and the object is the bloke. I added in a semicolon, and switched the subject to the object in mid-sentence. I am not quoting this sentence from my piece for recommendations on how to better phrase it, but to illustrate a point: I'm using a semicolon in order to intentionally make the sentence awkward and possibly grammatically incorrect.

This is also an example of item number two on this list. I mean, the awkwardness of the sentence could be circumvented easily by putting the bit after the semicolon in a separate sentence. But I worry that the measure would detract from the dominant focus in the scene, which would be the woman.

I worry also about not including enough descriptions, which may contribute to the awkward pacing of any given scene I'm writing. My descriptions tend to be very purple and ambiguous, besides. And I have an unhealthy habit of using prose elements, that according to general concensus, should be used sparingly. These include semicolons and em-dashes. I also worry overmuch about using characters' names overoften.

Are there any books that provide pointers on how to steer away from these pitfalls I've listed? I fear I will not be able to succeed if I continue revising without guidance. As it is, I'm just writing by subconsciously using the works of fiction I've read as a mental template of sorts, without any formal rules or constructs to adhere to.

I apologize. I am well-aware that this is laziness on my part.

 

[Melbourne Guy]

The paid-for version of Grammarly picks up a lot of errors regarding the mechanics of writing, @Eclair_de_XII. Typically, there are four per page in my novels, and while I do not accept all the recommendations, it is very helpful to weed out the obvious errors.

For a 'how to' guide for prose writing, the best I've read was Orson Scott Card's, How to write science fiction & fantasy, which states the only way to learn is to actually write. But there is also John Braine's, How to write a novel paperback, which is old but has straightforward advice, and Stephen King's, On writing: a memoir of the craft, to consider.

 

[Eclair_de_XII]

Thanks. I'll look into those books when I am in the bookstore next time.

 

[Melbourne Guy]

Thanks. I'll look into those books when I am in the bookstore next time.

I expect you'll have to order online, or get lucky in a second hand bookstore, @Eclair_de_XII, as they may no longer be in print.

 

[Lren Zvsm]

Steven King's "On Writing" is excellent. It gives you much more than information about grammar. I urge any aspiring writer to read this book.

 

[DaveC426913]

Steven King's "On Writing" is excellent. It gives you much more than information about grammar. I urge any aspiring writer to read this book.

I was about to reply with this exact suggestion. I'm glad others have beat me to it. I learned a lot from it.

King is big on writing simply. Normal people don't read, talk or act in flowery adjectives and adverbs.

 

[DaveC426913]

Usage of commas where it is unnecessary, and omission of commas where they would be helpful. (Comma after `Then': "Then, she took out her watch." vs "Then she took out her watch.")

I am halfway through Rutherford's colossal tome "Princes of Ireland" and find it disconcerting that Rutherford seems to feel that the apostrophes in possessives are distracting, so he just ... leaves them out.

 

[Eclair_de_XII]

Normal people don't read, talk or act in flowery adjectives and adverbs.

This is advice that really figuratively speaks to me; I thank you for sharing it.

 

[Drakkith]

For a 'how to' guide for prose writing, the best I've read was Orson Scott Card's, How to write science fiction & fantasy, which states the only way to learn is to actually write.

I also have Card's book. It's fantastic in my opinion.

"She leered at her enemy with a cross between cold pity and annoyance; there was desperation in his eyes, as he struggled to force her back."

If I recall my English lessons from primary school correctly, the subject is the woman and the object is the bloke. I added in a semicolon, and switched the subject to the object in mid-sentence. I am not quoting this sentence from my piece for recommendations on how to better phrase it, but to illustrate a point: I'm using a semicolon in order to intentionally make the sentence awkward and possibly grammatically incorrect.

There is almost no reason to ever use a semicolon while writing. The reader is going to read through the sentence in seconds regardless of how you write it as long as it isn't awkward and weird. They certainly aren't keeping a book on correct grammar nearby for reference. If you find yourself using semicolons, just re-write your sentence without it. It will almost certainly be just as good if not better.

Also, there's nothing wrong with switching subjects between sentences as long as you aren't switching the point of view of the narrative. The bit after the semicolon in your example is mostly fine since you are describing someone or something from one character's point of view.

This is also an example of item number two on this list. I mean, the awkwardness of the sentence could be circumvented easily by putting the bit after the semicolon in a separate sentence. But I worry that the measure would detract from the dominant focus in the scene, which would be the woman.

It won't.
"She leered at her enemy with a cross between cold pity and annoyance. There was desperation in his eyes as he struggled to force her back."
This is just as focused as with the semicolon in my opinion.

I worry also about not including enough descriptions, which may contribute to the awkward pacing of any given scene I'm writing.

This is difficult to comment on since it's not about fairly hard and fast grammar rules and personal preference plays a big part too. You can write a great story with very simple descriptions. You can also write a very bad story with complex descriptions.

My descriptions tend to be very purple and ambiguous, besides.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. Could you provide an example?

And I have an unhealthy habit of using prose elements, that according to general concensus, should be used sparingly. These include semicolons and em-dashes.

I'll make it easy on you. You're allowed a single semicolon use and single em-dash use per chapter. Good luck.

 

[Drakkith]

Also, pick up Grammatically Correct, by Anne Stilman and give it a read. It's a good book on most of the generally accepted rules regarding spelling, grammar, and punctuation. It uses examples from a huge number of literary works, from Tennyson's The Charge of the Light Brigade to J.K. Rowling's Harry Potter series and more.

 

[Melbourne Guy]

There is almost no reason to ever use a semicolon while writing.

Hmmm. I disagree, @Drakkith. In fiction at least, it neatly separates two points that are similar in a sentence.

“Not the aliens. It’s James. Sympathisers have set him free; they’re marching on the bridge.”​

I could break that last sentence into two parts, but that would make the dialogue choppy in this instance. But they are not common, I'll give you that! There are a mere 63 from 120,000 words in my last novel.

I'll make it easy on you. You're allowed a single semicolon use and single em-dash use per chapter. Good luck.

That's terrific advice, especially with the em-dash. It's soooo easy to pepper your novel with them, and they are like a strong spice: best used sparingly!

Normal people don't read, talk or act in flowery adjectives and adverbs.

I've read that if you say the words aloud, it gives you a better idea of whether your dialogue sounds like how people speak. Seems to work, and definitely identifies overly flowery words.

 

[Drakkith]

Hmmm. I disagree, @Drakkith. In fiction at least, it neatly separates two points that are similar in a sentence.

I'm exaggerating a bit for sure. Semicolons have their uses of course.

 

[Choppy]

One book (or series of books) that many of my writer friends swear by is:
The Emotion Thesaurus

However, based on the description of the problems, it sounds more to me like what you need is an editor.

You can only learn so much from books on the craft of writing. Sure they can help, but often what you get is someone outlining a process that works for them. And even when you know the "rules," a novel is a tremendous undertaking. While writing you get tired, distracted, forget details, get so absorbed in a scene that you forget about the writing mechanics, etc. You make mistakes. And not even mistakes, but get the main idea down without too much forethought into how it might best be presented to a reader.

That's where editors and beta readers come in.

There are different types of editors/edits (and they do overlap). You typically stare with a developmental editor who will look at the story as a whole. They help you with character development, plot/story, generation of suspense, pacing, theme, tone, developing your unique voice, etc.

Line editors edit for writing style, clarity, showing/telling, point of view, etc.

Copy editors focus on the mechanics, grammar, word redundancy, word repetition, etc.

Beyond this, you can get beta-readers, who will review a polished copy of the manuscript before it is officially available to the public. Usually they aren't "experts" but fans of the genre who are willing to give feedback. They point out errors and can identify what works and what doesn't work for them to give you an idea of what your overall readership will think of your book.

You can also get people to perform a sensitivity read. For example if you have a character who is in a demographic or wrestling with social issues that you as a writer haven't wrestles with, getting someone who is or has to read the book can point out any errors or keep you from falling into any misconceptions.

Depending on your budget, editors can be costly. But they don't have to be. Lots of writers accomplish much of this through critique groups where they exchange works and trade feedback.

 

[DaveC426913]

Lots of writers accomplish much of this through critique groups where they exchange works and trade feedback.

Very good point.

Several of my friends are writers and we pass our works around for editing and proofing.

 

[PeroK]

Steven King's "On Writing" is excellent.

It's Stephen King.

 

[DaveC426913]

It's Stephen King.

No, he meant Steven King with four 'M's and a silent 'Q'.

 

[Eclair_de_XII]

Also, there's nothing wrong with switching subjects between sentences as long as you aren't switching the point of view of the narrative. The bit after the semicolon in your example is mostly fine since you are describing someone or something from one character's point of view.

Thank you. That is helpful.

This is difficult to comment on since it's not about fairly hard and fast grammar rules and personal preference plays a big part too. You can write a great story with very simple descriptions. You can also write a very bad story with complex descriptions.

I phrased my initial concern rather poorly, I think. I had meant to say that I included far more summaries of events rather than scenes describing how aforementioned events played out. For example, I have a lot of fight scenes in my piece, that I strongly feel would be better shown rather than told. I have two excerpts from my piece with this issue:

He readied his sword, as a horde of demons charged at him. He slashed and kicked at each one. Each strike and sword-swipe was delivered with the precision and deliberation of a dedicated martial artist.

She flashed her knives at the sound of demons approaching from her left. Their fangs were bared, eager to sink into her flesh. She could almost feel their bloodlust, as they lunged at her in unison. She danced around the fell creatures, and nimbly swiped at them with the aim of a skilled assassin.

I feel like I'm leaning too much on comparisons to different types of fighters in order to describe how these lot fought. In a way, I am letting these nouns describe the fight for me, instead of describing it explicitly myself. It's also an example of how vague I can be.

There does not seem to be any transition between being chased by these demons, and then fighting these demons, besides. Both scenes just spontaneously jump from being chased, immediately to the midst of the fight.

Moreover, in the second excerpt, I said that she `felt' the bloodlust, instead of describing any indicators of it.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. Could you provide an example?

In truth, I've no examples to present. I cannot recall off the top of my head any purple descriptions from my piece. I think I was just blindly bashing my own work because I was so thoroughly unsatisfied with the product I had written so many months ago, which I had prematurely declared to be complete.

Line editors edit for writing style, clarity, showing/telling, point of view, etc.

Copy editors focus on the mechanics, grammar, word redundancy, word repetition, etc.

To be honest, these sound like tasks I'd be much happier doing on my own.

Additionally, I am very shy and self-conscious about my work.

 

[Drakkith]

"He readied his sword, as a horde of demons charged at him. He slashed and kicked at each one. Each strike and sword-swipe was delivered with the precision and deliberation of a dedicated martial artist."

"She flashed her knives at the sound of demons approaching from her left. Their claws were bared, eager to sink into her flesh. She could almost feel their bloodlust, as they lunged at her in unison. She danced around their claws and fangs, and nimbly swiped at them with the aim of a skilled assassin."

I feel like I'm leaning too much on comparisons to different types of fighters in order to describe how these lot fought. In a way, I am letting these nouns describe the fight for me, instead of describing it explicitly myself. It's also an example of how vague I can be.

Yeah, those aren't very satisfying to read to be honest. What should be an action scene has been written like a montage. Here's a quick piece I wrote:

He readied his sword as the horde of demons charged. Two were quickly upon him. The first clumsily slashed at him with a foul, rusty piece of ragged metal that only vaguely resembled a sword. He let his shield take the blow as he thrust his sword through the demon's throat and then cut sideways, letting its nearly headless body collapse as his sword stroke caught the second demon on the side of the head before it could parry. He stepped forward and met the next three, slamming his shield into one as his sword danced through the bodies of the other two. The first demon had just recovered when his sword found whatever passed for guts in the beast. He shoved the body away as another group of demons charged.

"Next!" he roared.

Now that I've written a paragraph of action I can afford to give less detail and 'tell' more. Paragraph after paragraph of action can quickly become tiring to read.

They said he was like lightning. But they were wrong. Lightning is random. Un-aimed. Just as likely to strike your neighbor as it is you. He was precise. Deliberate. Striking and bashing and moving and striking again. He took the horde apart as if it were children dressed up as monsters and playing at war. And when he was finally done there was nothing left but corpses on the ground and a red mist in the air.

 

[Melbourne Guy]

Additionally, I am very shy and self-conscious about my work.

Being self-conscious about your work is an emotion that either results in you not writing...or is something you get over, @Eclair_de_XII, in the face of reader reviews

 

[Eclair_de_XII]

Being self-conscious about your work is an emotion that either results in you not writing...or is something you get over

I disagree. It just prevents my work from growing, because I actively shield it from peer review. I admit that my self-consciousness is detrimental to me, though. But it is not something I'm willing to get over, for the time being.

 

[Drakkith]

I disagree. It just prevents my work from growing, because I actively shield it from peer review. I admit that my self-consciousness is detrimental to me, though. But it is not something I'm willing to get over, for the time being.

It's not something you just get over. You just try to do a little better over time.

 

[Melbourne Guy]

But it is not something I'm willing to get over, for the time being.

It's not something you just get over. You just try to do a little better over time.

I may have injected too much levity in my observation. If you're an author, the review process is raw and unidirectional. That can be brutal, because you cannot control reader reactions or their comments about their reactions, but if you want to publish, it comes with the territory. Few reviews really assist with your work - and ratings are worse, there is zero feedback apart from a value - because they are not normally critiques, so you either ignore them (who does that?) or just power through.

But perhaps, @Eclair_de_XII, we can continue this discussion after your work is published, I would be interested in how you feel then. @Drakkith, I'm not sure if you're published already, but if so, how have you found the review process? How have they helped you do better over time?

 

[PeroK]

"She leered at her enemy with a cross between cold pity and annoyance; there was desperation in his eyes, as he struggled to force her back."

I have no pretensions to be a writer, but I would prefer:

"She leered at her enemy with a cross between cold pity and annoyance, and saw the desperation in his eyes, as he struggled to force her back."

 

[Choppy]

Additionally, I am very shy and self-conscious about my work.

Fair enough.

One thing about editors and critique groups that I've found is that you need to be ready for it. It really helps when you find people you can trust, and who are willing to provide you feedback in a way that you are comfortable with.

Some writers have encounters editors who are quite harsh and this gives rise to the notion that the only way to be a writer is to have a thick skin and that it's okay to totally trash someone else's work.

 

[Eclair_de_XII]

we can continue this discussion after your work is published

I do not have any actual intentions to publish my work. I am fiction-writing merely to pass the time.

"She leered at her enemy with a cross between cold pity and annoyance, and saw the desperation in his eyes, as he struggled to force her back."

I love this rephrase.

 

[Drakkith]

I do not have any actual intentions to publish my work. I am fiction-writing merely to pass the time.

Hey now, at least publish some super embarrassing fanfiction like myself.

 

[Melbourne Guy]

Some writers have encounters editors who are quite harsh and this gives rise to the notion that the only way to be a writer is to have a thick skin and that it's okay to totally trash someone else's work.

Yeah, that's the stereotypical view of editors, @Choppy, and they tend not to last long in the role because it's a two-way street. Authors have a say in who edits our work, we're not indentured slaves

But it is the readers who help you grow a thick skin, and sadly, you do need to. Consider publishing as a social media on steroids experience, because your investment is huge, you're emotionally attached to your work, and you expect others to 'get' what you've written. If they reject your premise in a negative fashion, it hurts. And they rarely say anything constructive. Then, after a while, you realize that letting such feedback affect your mental state is neither fair nor desirable, and you shift gears.

I consider it as being thicker skinned, and appreciate others may phrase it differently, but is certainly a changed perspective on essentially anonymous feedback via publishing sites.

 

[Melbourne Guy]

I do not have any actual intentions to publish my work. I am fiction-writing merely to pass the time.

I have been thinking about this, @Eclair_de_XII. Are you planning on sharing your stories, even if not publishing them? Because it is unlikely you'll significantly improve your craft without feedback.

 

[Eclair_de_XII]

super embarrassing fanfiction

That's actually where my excerpts are from, and the entire reason I made this topic.

I was dissatisfied with a television program's ending, arrogantly thought I could write a better one, then got to work for three weeks straight with little sleep, and an unnecessary amount of obsession over my writing. Then I uploaded it and shared it on a social media site.

Unfortunately, in all the excitement of having gotten the project done, I had overlooked countless typographical errors and grammatical blunders. I was too tired to go through a reread of my rough draft. I regret having let those whom I had shared it with look at an inferior version of the story I had wanted to present. It had gone through at least fifty revisions since the initial upload.

Several months later, I reread my work more carefully, with the intent of making more revisions. I made sure to mark those errors specific to certain chapters, and to record any errors that recurred throughout the piece. After I was done, I concluded that it would be much easier to start from scratch, using my base draft as a guide.

Are you planning on sharing your stories, even if not publishing them?

I have shared them, yes. But I am unwilling to share it again in the future, unless it is with a fellow fan of the program who also happens to writes fan-fiction, and who has explicitly consented to review my work. Just sharing it on social media is unlikely to garner any useful feedback. And as my initial draft was egregious to begin with, I do not find it surprising that nobody has tried.

 

[DaveC426913]

Yes. I would definitely suggest your feedback come from only trusted folk, and only one or two at most. And be sure to negotiate whay kind of feedback you're after.

 

[Eclair_de_XII]

All that I'm able to find online are various articles and books that claim to instruct the reader on how to write good prose, pitfalls to avoid during the writing process, and things of that nature. I find the wealth of resources of this nature extremely bothersome. All I'm looking for are basic rules and conventions to follow when writing fiction in prosaic format. I have no idea how to write fiction properly. The only things I have to go off of are my rather meager collection of books. If I chose to use those books as a reference, I would have to infer how novels are properly written. I'd very much prefer studying a handbook that explicitly details how prose is typically written, rather than analyzing and reverse-engineering the process from someone else's work.

 

[jedishrfu]

My son's friend pointed us to books by Blake Snyder called Saves the Cat. There are three books in the series but the first one and maybe the second would help with writing fiction.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1932907009/?tag=pfamazon01-20

Snyder was a successful Hollywood screenwriter who developed a kind of cookbook formula for creating movie scripts. He indexed a large collection of movies placing them into 10 genres and from there into subgenres based on certain differences in the story subtype.

https://slate.com/culture/2013/07/hollywood-and-blake-snyders-screenwriting-book-save-the-cat.html

Later a novelist, Jessica Brody took Blake's method and applied it to writing novels.

You can learn more here in this blog article:

https://www.dabblewriter.com/articles/plotting-your-novel-using-save-the-cat

One of the takeaways I got was that many movies follow the same plotline but changeup the characters and backstory while keeping similar beatsheets. One prominant example was how Monsters Inc was the same as the Matrix.

This next article compares Monsters Inc with Monsters University and how they folllow the beats of different genres:

https://savethecat.com/about-the-beats/two-monster-hits-two-different-genres

 

[Eclair_de_XII]

Thanks for sharing these links.

I have a working conceptual outline of a short-story already, though. The problem I have revolves around putting that outline into prose. I'm trying to look for a book that details the rules and conventions of prose-writing.

Such a book would tell the reader why it isn't typically acceptable to insert pieces of dialogues from two different characters into one paragraph, or why dialogue lines are typically at the beginning of a paragraph rather than at the end. I'm not looking for books on how to structure a story, but rather how to structure that story into prose format.

 

[jedishrfu]

Yes, I see. I know its common convention to place larger dialogue from a given character into its own paragraph. Readers know that a new paragraph with quotes means another character is speaking.

I've seen dialogue where there will be a string of paragraphs where only the first couple identify the characters and the remaining ones alternate between them without specifying which one is talking. However you need to identify the character speaking each if you have three or more characters talking because the reader will get confused.

For short speaking things like

"Watch out! Right full rudder!" said the captain. "Okay captain" replied the pilot.

I looked for other references and found these:

https://karenkrossing.com/for-writers/grammar-tips-for-fiction-writers/

prose style discussion:

https://jerichowriters.com/prose-style/

As a writer, its better to find some online resources and use tools like grammarly to check your writing. That's what I do. Some firends have suggested Scrivener as a good tool for organizing things. I have it but haven't really used it much. Right now, I use Obsidian, a markdown based note taking tool that allow you to construct a network of your notes into something resembling wikipedia. I've heard some people use it to create their backstory and character histories as they write.

There are a lot of good writer podcasts too but you'll need to search for them via google. I had a list in my notes but don't have access to them right now.

 

[hutchphd]

Strunk and White "Elements of Style"
And read E.B. White essays. Like: https://genius.com/E-b-white-once-more-to-the-lake-annotated