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Can Complexity in Life Really Arise by Chance?

In summary, the article explores the idea that complexity in life may not solely arise by chance, challenging the notion of random processes as adequate explanations for the intricate structures observed in living organisms. It discusses the roles of natural selection, environmental factors, and the inherent properties of biological systems that may contribute to the emergence of complexity, suggesting that a combination of chance and deterministic processes could be responsible for the marvels of life.
  • #1
lbooda
The article under the above name, by John Rennie in the July 2002 Scientific American, has 14 other reasons than the one I wish to illustrate:[Creationist] "8. Mathematically, it is inconceivable that anything as complex as a protein, let alone a living cell or a human, could spring up by chance."[Rennie, condensed] "As an analogy, consider the 13-letter sequence "TOBEORNOTTOBE." Those hypothetical million monkeys, each pecking out one phrase a second, could take as long as 78,800 years to find it among the 2613sequences of that length. But in the 1980s Richard Hardison of Glendale College wrote a computer program that generated phrases randomlywhile preserving the positions of individual letters that happened to be correctly placed(in effect, selecting for phrases more like Hamlet's). On average, the program re-created the phrase in just 336 iterations, less than 90 seconds. Even more amazing, it could reconstruct Shakespeare's entire play in just four and a half days."This seems most logical and parsimonious to me. See SciAm to post your favorite "answer."A wake to imagination! {^,^}
 
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  • #2
Hmmmm.......... Interesting that the only time evolution works is when there's some kind of intelligence behind it.
 
  • #3
quote:Originally posted by Rex:Hmmmm.......... Interesting that the only time evolution works is when there's some kind of intelligence behind it.Really? That is completely counter to my understanding of evolution. What is your exposure to evolutionary theory? What have you read or been told in regard to it? I think you have some misconceptions that need to be addressed.________________Beware the man of one book - St Thomas Aquinas
 
  • #4
quote:Originally posted by Rex:Hmmmm.......... Interesting that the only time evolution works is when there's some kind of intelligence behind it.Of course anything thatwedo is going to have some kind of intelligence behind it. That does not mean that life's creation had intelligence behind it. The computer program shows that random occurences can create complex sequences.-----------------------------------------------------You explain through explanations that avoid explanation.
 
  • #5
I created a program just like the one mentioned about 6 months ago. My aim ultimately was to create a genetic algorithm, but until I can get a deeper understanding of c or c++ programming, I have to resort to simple programming.The program does indeed work a hell of a lot quicker than if the process relied solely on random processes. This is due to the restriction of the solution space. Initially the program makes rapid progress, as the solution space quickly shrinks. However this progress appears to me to be very much logarithmic, (I guess I could easily test this hypothesis with my program).Rex-This kind of program is indeed created for a purpose, and its only aim is to show that random processes can produce order. My area of interest is in complex systems, particularly those relating to evolution. There have been many programs that have come out of research in this area, most of which have no intelligence built into them, yet complexity still emerges, as does order, spontaneously. It is this emergent behaviour which complex systems researches study.
 
  • #6
G'day,quote:...while preserving the positions of individual letters that happened to be correctly placed.Doesn't this phrase mean that the program isn't truely random, for instance, trulely random would be ,IMO,- run random .. get resultant phrase .. does it match .. no, run random .. yes, bingo - maybe it would take longer, maybe not, the point being to run the entire phrase if it doesn't match what is sought instead of keeping the partial matches until the total is achieved.The good are innocent and create justice. The bad are guilty, which is why they invent mercy.-Terry Pratchet
 
  • #7
Well, chemistry isn't exactly random eithe5r, is it? I think the point is that while atoms might bump into each other randomly, only some of them wil stick together, which is symbolized by the "preserved letters". The laws of chemistry will only allow certain combinations to work, while "rejecting" all the rest."I contend that we are both atheists, I just believe in one less god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all other possible gods, then you will know why I dismiss yours." (Stephen F. Roberts)
 
  • #8
The whole poont to evolutionism is that the are small gains with each step. There is no ultimate goals but each good thing generates a minor reward, helping preserve the successfully evolved component, so of the 'characters are preserved' as in the experiement.-Avoid life. It'll kill you in the end.-
 
  • #9
quote:Originally posted by Amp:Doesn't this phrase mean that the program isn't truely random, for instance, trulely random would be ,IMO,- run random .. get resultant phrase .. does it match .. no, run random .. yes, bingo - maybe it would take longer, maybe not, the point being to run the entire phrase if it doesn't match what is sought instead of keeping the partial matches until the total is achieved.Exactly the misconception the programmer was trying to illuminate.Creationists claim evolution is random.As FZ indicated, scientists show that Natural Selection is a big part of evolution and that Natural Selection is non-random. It specifically sorts through seemingly random changes (e.g., DNA mutations) and keeps what works and discards what doesn't.--------------------------The Universe...is an unsettlingly big place, a fact which for the sake of a quiet life most people tend to ignore. (Douglas Adams)
 
  • #10
quote:Originally posted by Rex:Hmmmm.......... Interesting that the only time evolution works is when there's some kind of intelligence behind it.That wasn't biological evolution, silly, that was a computer simulation of an idea pertaining to evolution.Also, are you saying the computer is intelligent? It was just running a program (i.e., following a set of rules). Nature follows a set of rules too which allows it to proceed seemingly without guidance. Now the question is whether the rules of nature were established by an intelligence. And that's a question for another forum because science cannot say one way or the other.--------------------------The Universe...is an unsettlingly big place, a fact which for the sake of a quiet life most people tend to ignore. (Douglas Adams)
 
  • #11
Mutations are random. Natural Selection is very very picky.As full and bright as I am, this light is not my ownA million light reflections pass over me-Maynard James Keenan
 
  • #12
Hey ya'll,OK, Phobos I see. I agree.In the beginning, there was nothing, which exploded..-Terry Pratchet
 
  • #13
quote:"As an analogy, consider the 13-letter sequence "TOBEORNOTTOBE." Those hypothetical million monkeys, each pecking out one phrase a second, could take as long as 78,800 years to find it among the 2613 sequences of that length. But in the 1980s Richard Hardison of Glendale College wrote a computer program that generated phrases randomly while preserving the positions of individual letters that happened to be correctly placed (in effect, selecting for phrases more like Hamlet's). On average, the program re-created the phrase in just 336 iterations, less than 90 seconds. Even more amazing, it could reconstruct Shakespeare's entire play in just four and a half days."This could be used to support Intelligent Design Theory. It shows that intelligence (computer program) is required to produce information (one specific phrase).
 
  • #14
quote:This could be used to support Intelligent Design Theory. It shows that intelligence (computer program) is required to produce information (one specific phrase).I think it is a real streach to call a computer program "intellegence" Granted much intellegence is required to create the program, but once it is created and running it is a simple set of rules applied with out varition. Intellegence would be the abiliy to vary the rules, on the fly and for reasons motivated by the data being processed. To my knowledge there is no computer program capable of doing this.Near the end of April I lost effective use of my left eye. Proof reading has been a real pain, that combined with my erratic typing makes for iteresting errors. Please bear with me. By the end of July I should be back to normal.
 
  • #15
quote:Originally posted by Integral:Intellegence would be the abiliy to vary the rules, on the fly and for reasons motivated by the data being processed. To my knowledge there is no computer program capable of doing this.That could be programmed too. Isn't that what AI is all about ?- Sivakami.***************************************************************' Knowledge is the only instrument of production that is not subject to diminishing returns. ' -- J. M. Clark
 
  • #16
quote:Originally posted by Rex:This could be used to support Intelligent Design Theory. It shows that intelligence (computer program) is required to produce information (one specific phrase)."Information" can be any phrase (or even a non-phrase). Perhaps a guiding hand is needed to achieve a particular result (such as the sample phrase). The current theory of evolution notes no end-phrase (i.e., no scientific evidence that humans were predestined). But there are many theistic evolutionists who would say that God used evolution in his creation (a question for the Religion forum).--------------------------The Universe...is an unsettlingly big place, a fact which for the sake of a quiet life most people tend to ignore. (Douglas Adams)
 
  • #17
quote:Originally posted by Integral:I think it is a real streach to call a computer program "intellegence" Granted much intellegence is required to create the program, but once it is created and running it is a simple set of rules applied with out varition. Intellegence would be the abiliy to vary the rules, on the fly and for reasons motivated by the data being processed. To my knowledge there is no computer program capable of doing this.I submit to you the following random string of 0's and 1's:11001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100What's the matter? You don't believe these numbers were randomly generated? Why not?Because they appear to be created by a "simple set of rules without variation".Artificially created. Non-random. Intelligence.
 
  • #18
And if you stare at the ones and zeros long enough, you will see the face of God...or maybe Lemmy from Motorhead, take your pick!Anyways, the series of numbers posted are exactly as likely as any other series of numbers. Evolution doesn't claim to be random anyways, so beating a strawman to death doesn't advance the Evil Creationist Conspiracy's goals one bit... so maybe we should just move on?"I contend that we are both atheists, I just believe in one less god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all other possible gods, then you will know why I dismiss yours." (Stephen F. Roberts)
 
  • #19
G' day, (whats a troll)Rex, I guess U noticed they are all they same # or numbers.In the beginning, there was nothing, which exploded..-Terry Pratchet
 

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