Can Legislation Prevent Leaders from Misleading Congress into War?

[LowlyPion]

Not on my part, I can assure you. I am very conservative, and I usually vote split-tickets. My revulsion with the Bush administration lies entirely with their actions, and not with their putative party affiliation.

Nor on my part either, being as reserved as I am already in expressing my opinion.

 

[Alfi]

Good bye and my only wish is I never have to listen to you mangle the English language any further.

Unless, after an investigation, you get asked to the Hague to defend yourself against war crime charges.

 

[NeoDevin]

No, I didn't, Ivan, you did: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/apathy

I can't help but notice that you neglected to include the second definition, the one that Ivan was clearly using in his post.

2. lack of interest in or concern for things that others find moving or exciting.

 

[Cyrus]

It's funny that I think 99.99% of you are wrong. In fact, dead wrong. I think these remarks that 'he has no regard for human life', etc are WAYYY off the mark.

I honestly think this is a case of ignorance. He thought he could do a lot of honest to goodness GOOD in the middle east by spreading democracy, even if that meant covering his ears to what he didn't want to hear by nay-sayers in the government. It was his lack of of willingness to listen and think things through *before* setting out on them (with good intentions) that got him into the mess. And not putting his VP in check, letting Chenney have TOO much clout in DC and doing far too much behind the scenes with Haliburton in Iraq - a total disgrace.

I would argue its CHENNEY NOT BUSH that is the real evil guy in the WH.

 

[turbo]

It's funny that I think 99.99% of you are wrong. In fact, dead wrong. I think these remarks that 'he has no regard for human life', etc are WAYYY off the mark.

W has no regard for human life, unless it happens to be a fetus - then he is "on the job". Once you are born, it's OK by him if you are subjected to cluster bombs, land mines, depleted uranium munitions, etc, especially if you are not a Christian.

I honestly think this is a case of ignorance. He thought he could do a lot of honest to goodness GOOD in the middle east by spreading democracy, even if that meant covering his ears to what he didn't want to hear by nay-sayers in the government. It was his lack of of willingness to listen and think things through *before* setting out on them (with good intentions) that got him into the mess. And not putting his VP in check, letting Chenney have TOO much clout in DC and doing far too much behind the scenes with Haliburton in Iraq - a total disgrace.

Bush is NOT spreading democracy in the ME. He is spreading death and destruction in the ME. The US is not in the business of promoting democracy around the world, as you would know if you followed the election of Hamas in Palestine. Democratically elected governments are attacked and toppled if they don't hew to the business interests running the US government. You are too young to remember the Contras, but I urge you to research how another US president claimed to be spreading "democracy" by stealing arms from the US military, funneling them through Israel and private arms dealers, selling them to Iran, and using the "returns" (they certainly were not profits) to finance an illegal war.

I would argue its CHENNEY NOT BUSH that is the real evil guy in the WH.

So this is how Bush is not evil? He is a good guy compared to Cheney? I'm a pretty nice guy compared to Jeffrey Dahmer, don't you think? Haven't killed any innocent kids for weeks, and rarely even snack on their remains. Come on. This kind of revisionism is sick. Evil is evil, no matter under what pretenses it is practiced, and no matter how many US flags are ranked in back of the perpetrators when they claim to be in the right.

 

[Chi Meson]

Since I opened this bag or worms, I thought I'd make myself clear that I do not personally think that W is "evil." I think that he is made of lower stuff. Not lower than me, but lower than the stuff of a president. HE did not get himself into Yale. He did not get himself into the Texas Nat'l guard. He did not get himself a dismal oil company, nor a baseball team, and he certainly did not put himself where he is now.

The stupid things he has said have embarrassed the hell out our nation. I don't just mean his voluminous "mistakes" in speaking either, I mean things like referring to the actions in the ME as a "Crusade." Like saying "Bring it on." Like "Good bye from the world's greatest polluter." These things that he has said, on behalf of representing our country, already fill several books.

THis is not about politics, it's about the person. A person who thinks it's proper to give the German head of state an impromptu and unwelcome shoulder massage. This person was an embarrassment.

In his good-bye speech, when he talked of "good and evil" in the world, I did not get angry because I thought he was the evil one, I got incensed by his belief that he considered himself able to determine between the two.

His constant "brain-freezes" during speeches and press conferences are good comedy, but they indicate an inability to think on the fly. If it is actually true that he was making the big decisions on a daily basis, then I do not believe that he was capable of ever holding "all the facts" in his head long enough to perform the proper analysis.

I'm sure that W always thought he had the best interests of the country in mind. It's the quality of that mind I am sick of.

 

[Cyrus]

W has no regard for human life, unless it happens to be a fetus - then he is "on the job". Once you are born, it's OK by him if you are subjected to cluster bombs, land mines, depleted uranium munitions, etc, especially if you are not a Christian.

Sorry turbo, but this doesn't fly. You are simply stating your opinion on what you think he thinks - it's pure speculation.

Bush is NOT spreading democracy in the ME. He is spreading death and destruction in the ME. The US is not in the business of promoting democracy around the world, as you would know if you followed the election of Hamas in Palestine. Democratically elected governments are attacked and toppled if they don't hew to the business interests running the US government. You are too young to remember the Contras, but I urge you to research how another US president claimed to be spreading "democracy" by stealing arms from the US military, funneling them through Israel and private arms dealers, selling them to Iran, and using the "returns" (they certainly were not profits) to finance an illegal war.

Again, this doesn't not have to do with what I said. I said he *Thinks* he is doing good.

So this is how Bush is not evil? He is a good guy compared to Cheney? I'm a pretty nice guy compared to Jeffrey Dahmer, don't you think? Haven't killed any innocent kids for weeks, and rarely even snack on their remains. Come on. This kind of revisionism is sick. Evil is evil, no matter under what pretenses it is practiced, and no matter how many US flags are ranked in back of the perpetrators when they claim to be in the right.

Bad things out of ignorance isn't "evil" -it's ignorance. Bad things with intention are evil. I argue Chenney had the intention to push for war more than Bush because Chenney had (and did) make a lot of money for halliburton.

 

[LowlyPion]

I do not personally think that W is "evil." I think that he is made of lower stuff.

I think that's pretty much the case. It's in his nature. And he has proven himself unqualified for the job. His career only seems to demonstrate that he is perfectly willing to use his daddy and deceit as shortcuts.

He wanted to be President, and his focus has sadly been on grasping and keeping power by whatever means, rather than doing the job of a President. Of being a leader of all the people at least some of the time, instead of a partner to special interests and ignorant ideology all of the time.

 

[OmCheeto]

I wasn't sure if I should start my own thread or just throw this tidbit in here as it is directly related to both G.W. and today.

3 days after the start of gulf war II, March 23rd, 2003, I stood back and noticed that the nation was a bit divided over what we had just started. I decided to write a pair of simple stories that were the best case and worst case scenarios possible. Little did I know that almost everything in both stories would come true.

I'd never meant to publish such a silly little pair of stories, but today it seems somewhat appropriate.

"[URL dual time line story.
A case study in future history.[/URL]

If anyone wants to take the stories seriously and criticize my naivety, don't bother, it's already been done.

http://home.europa.com/~garry/fh_response.html"

And yes, I didn't get the inauguration day right. Perhaps I was predicting this goodbye W thread.

 

[Chi Meson]

It's funny that I think 99.99% of you are wrong. In fact, dead wrong. I think these remarks that 'he has no regard for human life', etc are WAYYY off the mark.

Cyrus, did you not notice that you countered hyperbole with hyperbole? This statement above is saying that only one of 10,000 people in this thread has an opinion that is better than, say, "somewhat mistaken."

I honestly think this is a case of ignorance. He thought he could do a lot of honest to goodness GOOD in the middle east by spreading democracy, even if that meant covering his ears to what he didn't want to hear by nay-sayers in the government. It was his lack of of willingness to listen and think things through *before* setting out on them (with good intentions) that got him into the mess. And not putting his VP in check, letting Chenney have TOO much clout in DC and doing far too much behind the scenes with Haliburton in Iraq - a total disgrace.

I would argue its CHENNEY NOT BUSH that is the real evil guy in the WH.

Otherwise, I agree with you. Cheney, along with Addington, his Chief of staff, engineered the method by which they could not only get their minion into the WH, but managed to get themselves in the WH. On top of that, they found a loophole that allows the VP to be NOT answerable to the president. The proof was in the paycheck, Cheney was paid his salary by the Senate. The so-called liberal media just shrugged and let this one go.

 

[The Dagda]

Good riddance is all I can say.

 

[LennoxLewis]

Don't slam the door on your way out...
Certainly one of the worst presidents in recent times. Attacking Iraq was a huge mistake and a proven lie - no WMD ever was found. As for "spreading democracy", who does he think he is that he has the right to invade a country, kill 50.000 civilians to "spread democracy" ? How would he like it if his country was invaded to spread communism?

He's made enemies all over the world and i don't think there's a single country, or even non-American person that thinks higher of the USA now than he/she did during Clinton.

And if there's anything that spawns terrorism, then it's having people hate you. "The Bush doctrine" has done just that. As for Iraq, that country is simply too primitive to live quietly under democracy. So, all the bad stuff, and there will be plenty for the years to come, will be seen as America's fault, or Bush' fault. USA has a big valley to climb out of, though electing Obama is a good start.

 

[humanino]

Sorry turbo, but this doesn't fly. You are simply stating your opinion on what you think he thinks - it's pure speculation.

The speculation is that this body has a thinking brain. As Albert would have said, W merely needs a spinal cord.

 

[Red Rum]

The man himself admits that his biggest achievement in 8 years was getting reelected. Some patriot!

 

[The Dagda]

The man himself admits that his biggest achievement in 8 years was getting reelected. Some patriot!

His greatest achievement was nothing. And I mean literally nothing, his greatest achievement was convincing idiots to vote for an idiot, I can do that, I can't explain how or why but given the money the family and business connections I can wreck any country in the world.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Less than 24 hours left!

 

[Math Is Hard]

He's still getting a little work done. Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean just got their sentences commuted:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j6mH44rWD9yyZf_AZ7YxQDVFL7WwD95QC1FO0

 

[Ivan Seeking]

He's still getting a little work done. Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean just got their sentences commuted:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j6mH44rWD9yyZf_AZ7YxQDVFL7WwD95QC1FO0

Lou Dobbs will be dancing a jig this afternoon.

 

[wildman]

W has no regard for human life, unless it happens to be a fetus - then he is "on the job".

And what did he do for fetuses?? OK, the late term abortion bill, but even Biden voted for that... Actually, he probably increased abortion even taking the late term abortion bill in account since he cut family planning support to the Third World. It has been shown that when women are denied birth control they use abortion as the birth control of last resort.

So he really wasn't even interested in the life of the fetus.

 

[markyze]

http://users.telenet.be/yitian/goodbye-600.jpg

 

[LowlyPion]

What I want to know is where is the media coverage of Bush's welcome home party in Midland Texas?

Oh wait. Here it is:

Meanwhile, in Midland: Bush's homecoming
Hundreds of people have begun streaming into Centennial Plaza in downtown Midland for a welcome-home rally for ex-President Bush. Eight years ago, Bush held a final good-by rally in the place before heading to Washington for his inauguration. On Tuesday, after attending Barack Obama's swearing-in in Washington, the former president and first lady headed back to Texas for a 5:20 p.m. event. Thousands are expected. Bush loyalists -- some festooned with Bush-friendly buttons -- were given large red and blue W signs and Texas flags. On each side of a large outdoor stage are huge screens with the Texas flag and and words "Welcome Home President and Mrs. Bush."

Midland bling-bling for George W. Bush's Homecoming

Supporters dismissed the problems, praised the man. "We're very proud of him," said Kenneth Reynolds of Midland. "In my opinion he's done an outstanding job. He's done a good job for our economy out here in West Texas. I don't think had anything to do with the economy problem -- it was other people. "

http://trailblazersblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2009/01/meanwhile-in-midland-bushs-hom.html

I see it wasn't his fault.

 

[BobG]

He's still getting a little work done. Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean just got their sentences commuted:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j6mH44rWD9yyZf_AZ7YxQDVFL7WwD95QC1FO0

Only two.

Randall "Duke" Cunningham, Edwin Edwards, George Ryan, Michael Milken, Bob Ney, Ted Stevens, Jack Abramoff, all left off the list (as was John Walker Lindh, but, seriously).

No pre-emptive pardons for anyone in the Bush administration.

 

[Chi Meson]

I see it wasn't his fault.

Can't be his fault, because he really didn't do anything.

 

[LowlyPion]

Bush held in high esteem in Mexico:
http://uk.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=97371&videoChannel=2603

The sling shot looks suitable for water-balloons.

 

[OmCheeto]

OMG.

I have just found out that W was a virtual management twin of one of my old bosses.

Whilst perusing the web I ran across some controversy about how Obama had changed the dress code in the white house:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/29/us/politics/29whitehouse.html?_r=1"
New York Times
By SHERYL GAY STOLBERG
Published: January 28, 2009

Thus did an ironclad rule of the George W. Bush administration — coat and tie in the Oval Office at all times — fall by the wayside ...

My experience:

Your socks are too short. Yes. It's a clause in the dress code. I'm afraid I'm going to have to put it in your personnel file. Consider this your first warning. 3 more warnings and you will be terminated. Do you understand?

(Abbreviated sport socks are not allowed. Abbreviated sport socks are those that are defined as those socks that do not extend at least 2" above the ankle.)

For years following, this was known as the "Sock Wars". I was also rudely referred henceforth to as "Mr. Sissy Socks" by my fellow coworkers.

I should have filed a lawsuit for harassment...

From the above mentioned New York Times story:

Under Mr. Bush, punctuality was a virtue. Meetings started early — the former president once locked Secretary of State Colin L. Powell out of the Cabinet Room when Mr. Powell showed up a few minutes late — and ended on time.

Guess what...

I've written you another reprimand. This time for not showing up on time for work. I had the administrative assistant go over your timesheets for the last year, and you have been late 120 times out of the 210 working days. This is highly inappropriate. You have 2 more warnings left, and then you will be terminated.

hmmmm... what did the analysis, which consumed 4 hours of the AA's time, look like you might ask?

Late! 1 minute on 60 separate occasions.
Late! 2 minutes on 30 separate occasions.

....

Sorry to bring this up and remind you all of him, but when I saw how, as our president, he dwelled on pedantic petty trivialities, it brought up old bad memories, and I just had to vent.

 

[Loren Booda]

What of G. W. Bush's personality now? Although I am not qualified to make a professional diagnosis and have never met the man, I suspect that he may experience one or more of Napoleonic complex, depression, addictive and avoidant personality, and pathological lying.

We all have negative personality traits, and he is no exception. I am pretty sure he is loved by his family and close friends, but such relationships you can't elect. He seems to me more concerned with his inner circle than the rest of the world. I guess he was nominated more for his ability as a figurehead to endure and deflect confrontation, and project his good-old-boy image, than for any true talent or ability.

It is uncanny how his face resembles various masks (e. g., Ancient Greek theater). Have you seen monkey face comparisons to his?

 

[The Dagda]

As regards methods of ejection I was going to go with a trebuchet, but settled on this, I'm sure you have a few lying about if you want to fire him into the sun or another star somewhere?

http://ocw.mit.edu/NR/rdonlyres/4D9CB8F4-AA0E-4FCD-92C2-275836C4862C/0/chp_rocket.jpg

 

[Chi Meson]

I guess he was nominated more for his ability as a figurehead to endure and deflect confrontation, and project his good-old-boy image, than for any true talent or ability.

He was nominated because the "machine" picked him as their usable puppet. He was never truly in control. McCain should have been our leader for the past 8 years, but he was not answerable to the machine. A large group of non-politicized people can see through the chatter, and when McCain talked on the trail in 1999, we heard a person who could actually think and perform according to his own set of convictions.

But he was derailed by the Rove-Cheney-Addington bulldozer. Exactly where? South Carolina. A bait was laid, McCain took it, and it was over.

This time around, McCain was clearly compromised by the machine, and it was very sad t see.

Similarly, on the other side, the Dems had their own machine behind Clinton. Obama took over the clearly predecided favorite with ingenuity and his own version of the "straight talk express." When his position finally became clear, the infiltration of that machine also came clear, hence the nominations of certain people who seemed to lack the moral shimmer we were promised.

I am still optimistic, but less so than two weeks ago. I'm glad to hear the admission from O that the defense of Daschle was wrong, I truly wish that it had been sooner, and before Daschle pulled himself out. He should have said "Sorry man, stick around, but you don't get the job; you blew it." That would have been fabulous. A terribly-missed opportunity to win over a million people with borderline opinions about Obama. That opportunity is gone.

 

[russ_watters]

He was nominated because the "machine" picked him as their usable puppet. He was never truly in control. McCain should have been our leader for the past 8 years, but he was not answerable to the machine. A large group of non-politicized people can see through the chatter, and when McCain talked on the trail in 1999, we heard a person who could actually think and perform according to his own set of convictions.

But he was derailed by the Rove-Cheney-Addington bulldozer. Exactly where? South Carolina. A bait was laid, McCain took it, and it was over.

Agreed. I was very bitter about that.

This time around, McCain was clearly compromised by the machine, and it was very sad t see.

I'm not sure if I would word it that way. McCain still had the same issues in the primary as he did 8 years ago, which was why he started off a big underdog. But once he won the primary, he was the candidate, which by default means he ended up with the support of "the machine" and they shaped his campaign. But a lot of that was despiration anyway and with what happened to the economy in September and October, his odds of winning were never that good. With where he stood in August, I thought he was going to win: he was an underdog, and gaining, which is exactly where he likes to be.

Similarly, on the other side, the Dems had their own machine behind Clinton. Obama took over the clearly predecided favorite with ingenuity and his own version of the "straight talk express."

Yes, Obama was in a similar position to the one McCain was in in 2000 - but Obama beat the machine and McCain didn't. I wonder if Obama gave Hillary that cabinet position as thanks for Bill helping him win the primary!

When his position finally became clear, the infiltration of that machine also came clear, hence the nominations of certain people who seemed to lack the moral shimmer we were promised.

I don't think I'd say that. I think Obama wants to be different, it's just that he and his constituents are naive about whether or not it is possible to truly be different. The goals of getting experienced and, shall we say, "uncompromised" advisors are mutually exclusive and Obama went with experience and it bit him in the rear.

I am still optimistic, but less so than two weeks ago. I'm glad to hear the admission from O that the defense of Daschle was wrong, I truly wish that it had been sooner, and before Daschle pulled himself out. He should have said "Sorry man, stick around, but you don't get the job; you blew it." That would have been fabulous. A terribly-missed opportunity to win over a million people with borderline opinions about Obama. That opportunity is gone.

I agree. Obama admitted he was wrong, which was nice but that doesn't change the fact that he didn't do the right thing in the first test of his leadership character that he faced (actually, it was the third, wasn't it...?).

The question I have is why didn't he do the right thing and pull Daschle's (and the others?) nomination? My perception: it's intestinal fortitude. And that's something that always worries me about democrats. Sooner or later, he's going to have a real test (this was minor) and he's going to need guts.

 

[OmCheeto]

Yes, but does anyone think Obama will lock Clinton out of a cabinet meeting because she spent too much time putting on her lipstick?

Though I think it might be a funny joke to play on her one day. Does anyone have Barack's number?

 

[russ_watters]

Yes, but does anyone think Obama will lock Clinton out of a cabinet meeting because she spent too much time putting on her lipstick?

If she's late for that reason, he damn well should!

 

[Chi Meson]

This is the first I heard that Bush locked out his Sec. of State from a cabinet meeting. Since Colin Powell was one of the few, if not the only senior cabinet member that was NOT already singing the same song, I have no doubt that the lockout was a convenience to them who wanted an opportunity to push through the agenda without any counterpoint.

 

[LowlyPion]

Bush is gone and good riddance I say.

Locking out Powell and lecturing on dress code is about the level of pettiness I think that he operated on. Forget unfettering polluters, and reducing budgets of regulation agencies, and using Federal Attorneys for partisan ends, and embarking on an agenda of foreign aggression. No Powell was late ... lock him out. Coat and tie or you won't be seated. So petty. Hurricane in New Orleans? No sport coats allowed.

To hear Cheney talking freely and proudly about trampling the Bill of Rights and casting his ominous prediction of renewed terrorism because their way of enhanced interrogation was the only way is just the most ridiculous self-serving nonsense.

He and Bush I suppose will spend the remainder of their years trying to convince anyone who may listen how they should be grateful for the disservice they have done to the economy, the Constitution and our standing in the world. I rather think the only thing they will really be doing is trying to convince themselves that they did a good job.

 

[OmCheeto]

And let there be no more:

http://www.military.com/veterans-report/bill-seeks-to-punish-those-who-mislead-into-war?ESRC=vr.nl"

Week of February 16, 2009
U.S. Rep. Walter Jones, R-N.C., introduced legislation that would impose fines or prison time on presidents or executive-branch officials who "knowingly and willfully" mislead Congress to gain authorization to use U.S. military forces. The Executive Accountability Act was introduced last week and is co-sponsored by Rep. Neil Abercrombie, D-HI. If passed, the act would apply only to current and future presidential administrations and executive branches. The act calls for fines or up to 10 years in prison for leaders found guilty of misleading Congress in order to get authorization to go to war.