Charge electric car from dryer plug?

[mheslep]

Hang on a bit. Just changing the Law isn't suddenly going to magic a power distribution network that can handle everyone's extra vehicle charging loads. (Looking at the future, when 'everyone' is electric.)
Just think of the huge energy distribution system represented by the supplies to petrol stations and replacing a significant proportion of that with power via electrical cables. It's do-able, of course, but it will require a huge capital investment

The energy distribution system is already in place.

ScienceDaily (Dec. 14, 2006) — If all the cars and light trucks in the nation switched from oil to electrons, idle capacity in the existing electric power system could generate most of the electricity consumed by plug-in hybrid electric vehicles. A new study for the Department of Energy finds that "off-peak" electricity production and transmission capacity could fuel 84 percent of the country's 220 million vehicles if they were plug-in hybrid electrics...

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1211221149.htm

and needs some serious planning to handle peak loads. This will be particularly true when these new fast charging batteries start to come on stream and everyone demands a 2 minute top-up, whether at home or at the station down the road.

Yes that is about power and at that level I agree not only is it not available now, it is never going to happen. Ubiquitous 2 minute top ups would mean a small 50MW power plant that runs only in bursts, placed on every corner, useable by every driver.

 

[sophiecentaur]

It is true that the main problem I foresee is that of Power, rather than Energy distribution.
I wonder whether a 'small', 50MW electrical power generating unit is efficient enough to cause less pollution than the original petrol powered vehicles. I thought the whole point of going electrical was to locate the energy conversion (generators) in suitable plces and to make them very efficient.
In any case, my point about needing enhanced domestic supplies is relevant and the problem is not soluble by just changing the Law.

 

[dr dodge]

A new study for the Department of Energy finds that "off-peak" electricity production

so as long as we are not charging during business hours it would handle it.
so you could charge easily at the mall. just have to do it at 2:00 in the morning...lol

dr

 

[gmax137]

...

I wonder whether a 'small', 50MW electrical power generating unit is efficient enough to cause less pollution than the original petrol powered vehicles. ...

I think this is a very interesting question - has this been discussed here or elsewhere? (trying not to hijack this thread...

edit - I recall mheslep (?) having a lot to say on this (?) maybe somewhere in the 20 pages of 'fuel saving thread' or was it somewhere else? There was a lot about practical comparisons of miles per gallon and kW-hr.

 

[sophiecentaur]

It would be interesting to know.
Certainly, the Great British Public (and other groups) seem to think that Electricity is, somehow, both cost-free and pollution-free.
Any new form of transport is bound to have environmental costs, one way or another.

 

[mgb_phys]

Certainly, the Great British Public (and other groups) seem to think that Electricity is, somehow, both cost-free and pollution-free.

That's not true.
Yes they want to shut down the large coal fired stations that supply a lot of the power but produce CO2
And obviously you don't want nuclear, cos nuclear is bad m'kay.
And gas is fine as long as you don't need want to transport LPG in tankers or build pipelines

Of course hydro would be good, as long as it doesn't involve flooding any farmland or wilderness.
Wind would be ideal, as long as the turbines aren't visible anywhere pretty, or anywhere that could affect birds, or offshore. And it's a pity that solar isn't really practical.

So as long as the power doesn't produce CO2 and doesn't affect the view, or farmers or birds or involve buying fuel from foreigners - then they are right behind electricity generation

 

[russ_watters]

I sure haven't seen any washing machines that run on anything except 120V. The code requires a dedicated 20 amp circuit for it. Most of the time standard outlets in the U.S. are 15 amp. Seldom any 120V circuits in a residence are greater than this excpet the laundry, one (maybe 2) in the kitchen, and I believe one for the bathroom. Electric clothes dryers have a four prong 240/120 volt plug. The heating element runs on 240V and the motor runs on 120V. I would imagine a gas dryer would run on 120V but could require a dedicated circuit.

Dang, you're right - just checked and most of my circuits are 15A. I have one that says "washer" and it is 20A/120V - That may be both the washer and dryer because I don't see one for the dryer. The heat is from propane, though. My kitchen general power circuit is 20A.

Too used to commercial where the minimum is 20A.

 

[russ_watters]

Hang on a bit. Just changing the Law isn't suddenly going to magic a power distribution network that can handle everyone's extra vehicle charging loads. (Looking at the future, when 'everyone' is electric.)

No, but it will force the cost and responsibility onto the power company instead of the consumer. The power company will just end up back-charging us through our electric bills, but the rates are regulated too...

 

[russ_watters]

That's not true.
Yes they want to shut down the large coal fired stations that supply a lot of the power but produce CO2
And obviously you don't want nuclear, cos nuclear is bad m'kay.
And gas is fine as long as you don't need want to transport LPG in tankers or build pipelines

It is true (in the US and I'd wage in the UK too), otherwise electric cars would never be getting all the press and environmentalist attention they are. In that other thread, the linked study showed an average 27% improvement in emissions by going from an average car to a full electric in the US. With the advent of hybrids as an alternative, there would be a net increase in pollution due to driving an electric car!

It is fine that they are in development because it will take decades for them to become ubiquitous, but coal power is a much bigger and not to mention much easier problem. And it is one that is pretty rarely talked about in the media and not real high on the list for environmentalists. And I bet this is true almost everywhere - heck, Germany decided a few years ago that they would get rid of all their nuclear plants and the result is an increase in coal power. They take credit for a reduction in CO2, though, because of the integration of East Germany.

 

[mgb_phys]

They take credit for a reduction in CO2, though, because of the integration of East Germany.

Germany have a new technique, they are reducing their CO2 emission to Kyoto levels by shipping their nasty lignite coal to Poland, burning it in Polish power stations and shipping the power back.

Most of their new domestic power generation is coming from a gas pipeline form Russia.

ps. I need to put irony warning in bold.

 

[Averagesupernova]

Dang, you're right - just checked and most of my circuits are 15A. I have one that says "washer" and it is 20A/120V - That may be both the washer and dryer because I don't see one for the dryer. The heat is from propane, though. My kitchen general power circuit is 20A.

Too used to commercial where the minimum is 20A.

Your post brought up something I had forgotten. A furnace such as gas or propane would require a dedicated 120V 20A circuit also. Your heat is from propane, I assume you mean the heat for the dryer right?

 

[mheslep]

It would be interesting to know.
Certainly, the Great British Public (and other groups) seem to think that Electricity is, somehow, both cost-free and pollution-free.
Any new form of transport is bound to have environmental costs, one way or another.

The point is that some have much less impact than others.

 

[OmCheeto]

Wow. How far do some of you have to drive to get to the mall?

Here are some calculations of my daily commute to and from work:

gas powered
Total distance: 26 miles (ref: odometer)
mpg: 26 mpg (ref: my log)
actual motive energy: 4 kwh (ref: chargecar)
energy consumed: 34.7 kwh (ref: http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/pseudosc/200mpgcar.htm" = 34.7 kwh(conversion widget))
efficiency: 0.116 (ref: 4/34.7)
total cost of trip: $2.60 (ref: sign at gas station)
current annual cost: $1000 (ref: pocketbook)

now, switching to electric
Total distance: 26 miles
actual motive energy: 4 kwh
energy consumed: 5 kwh(ref: http://www.evalbum.com/1137")
efficiency: 0.8
cost of a kwh: $0.11/kwh(ref: my electric bill)
total cost of trip: $0.55
potential annual cost: $210

annual savings: $790
which should be enough to cover the cost of installing a charging station in your garage.

charge time at each end: 20 minutes.(240v 32a = dryer plug)
or 40 minutes at home each night.

And I really think that those of you that routinely drive more than 200 miles per day might want to avoid electric cars. For the time being anyways.

http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-12.htm"
The charge time of most chargers is about 3 hours.

Or are there batteries out there that can accept a full charge faster than that, that I am not aware of?

 

[mheslep]

...
Or are there batteries out there that can accept a full charge faster than that, that I am not aware of?

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2009/battery-material-0311.html", though the point of this thread has been that fast charge batteries won't do you much good as the charging infrastructure required is impractical.

 

[Borek]

the point of this thread has been that fast charge batteries won't do you much good as the charging infrastructure required is impractical.

Which just made me thinking - what if the charging station has its own battery of batteries, which are charged all the time with more or less constant current? Sure, that means lower efficiency, at the same time it means almost constant load.

 

[OmCheeto]

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2009/battery-material-0311.html", though the point of this thread has been that fast charge batteries won't do you much good as the charging infrastructure required is impractical.

Using their new processing technique, the two went on to make a small battery that could be fully charged or discharged in 10 to 20 seconds...

Holy Mary mother of Merry Chistmas everyone that's fast!

hmmmm... being that I used to personally lug around http://www.brighthub.com/engineering/marine/articles/23761.aspx", I don't see that an 8 minute charge time every 200 miles is much of a problem anymore.

With a second charging plug in the vehicle for low power needs or course. I mean really, who goes home or to work and stays less than 8 minutes?

 

[mheslep]

Which just made me thinking - what if the charging station has its own battery of batteries, which are charged all the time with more or less constant current? Sure, that means lower efficiency, at the same time it means almost constant load.

Possible, but there's some still some serious drawbacks. A battery backed charging point becomes expensive and thus it can't be distributed every few meters as can be simple 4kW charging points using only the grid. Second, handling 200-500KW electric cables is problematic - probably can't be left to the vehicle operator. Third the charging circuitry and mechanical interface on the vehicle side also has to become capable of handling that charge rate and thus it becomes more expensive.

Edit: One solution to this problem was worked out a hundred years ago, at least on small scales for a commercial fleet: NY taxis used a battery exchange system, originated by the electric trolley operators - on your way in two minutes.

 

[OmCheeto]

Second, handling 200-500KW electric cables is problematic - probably can't be left to the vehicle operator.

That's why they still won't let us http://www.capitalistchicks.com/?q=node/223", like everyone else.

But I guess that means we're a bit further ahead in infrastructure than the rest of the nation.

Trainer: Do not touch those shiny metal bits there. Got it?
Tron pumper trainee: Yes boss.
Trainer: And don't pull this trigger till its latched. Got it?
Tron pumper trainee: Yes boss.
Trainer: Ok. You're ready. Go pump some trons.
Trained tron pumper: Yes boss.

 

[mheslep]

energy consumed: 5 kwh(ref: http://www.evalbum.com/1137")

That's about 0.2 kWh/mile, a bit optimistic.

Here's some EV efficiencies by vehicle type:
Vehicle Class [kWh/mile]
Compact sedan 0.26
Mid-size sedan 0.30
Mid-size SUV 0.38
Full-size SUV 0.46
from Table 1, Page 9 here
http://energytech.pnl.gov/publications/pdf/PHEV_Feasibility_Analysis_Part1.pdf

 

[OmCheeto]

That's about 0.2 kWh/mile, a bit optimistic.

Here's some EV efficiencies by vehicle type:
Vehicle Class [kWh/mile]
Compact sedan 0.26
Mid-size sedan 0.30
Mid-size SUV 0.38
Full-size SUV 0.46
from Table 1, Page 9 here
http://energytech.pnl.gov/publications/pdf/PHEV_Feasibility_Analysis_Part1.pdf

For most people maybe.

my daily commute to and from work

I average 23.4 mph.

I'm afraid the dryer plug will be perfect for my needs. The rest of you will have to fend for yourselves.

And although they used the word "regeneration" once, the authors of your sited paper didn't really expand on it.

I probably should have not been so coy in hiding the fact that chargecar.org thinks I'll be able to recoup 32% of my energy with their dumb system. Hence my optimistic number.


Vehicle Class_____kWh/mile_______kWh/m with 32% regen
Compact sedan______0.26__________0.18
Mid-size sedan_____0.30__________0.20
Mid-size SUV_______0.38__________0.26
Full-size SUV______0.46__________0.31

The unfortunate economic and technologically limited facts of the past are fortunately slipping away faster than I can keep up. Which of course, makes me very happy.

 

[russ_watters]

Your post brought up something I had forgotten. A furnace such as gas or propane would require a dedicated 120V 20A circuit also. Your heat is from propane, I assume you mean the heat for the dryer right?

Well everything that makes heat is except the dishwasher - dryer, water heater, range/oven and furnace. My furnace is actually 120/15, which is all it needs for a >1hp fan for the air circulation and a much smaller one for the combustion air. My only 240V circuit is my condensing unit, which is 40A.

 

[LURCH]

Which just made me thinking - what if the charging station has its own battery of batteries, which are charged all the time with more or less constant current? Sure, that means lower efficiency, at the same time it means almost constant load.

This is exactly the infrastructure I envisioned ever since reading about the work being done at MIT on a so-called "synthetic battery," which is actually a capacitor capable of storing as much electricity as a lithium ion battery of the same size. Fueling stations would have a large capacitor underground, analogous to the storage tanks they currently use to hold petroleum fuel. These storage capacitors would continually "sip" from the utility lines, and discharge rapidly into vehicles. Of course, this rapid discharge would require some fairly substantial cables, but I don't think they would need to be any larger than the hoses currently used to pump gasoline.

Of course, these capacitors are not yet available, and storing a large battery underground does bring up some environmental concerns. However, I don't think these concerns are any greater than those associated with storing petroleum fuels the ground.

 

[mgb_phys]

Of course, these capacitors are not yet available, and storing a large battery underground does bring up some environmental concerns.

Today for multi-MW short term storage, especially if you can bury them underground you would probably look at flywheels.
You can buy 5MW flywheel backup systems off the shelf, they are used for data centers because they have higher power density than batteries and can supply very high peak power levels.

 

[LURCH]

Today for multi-MW short term storage, especially if you can bury them underground you would probably look at flywheels.
You can buy 5MW flywheel backup systems off the shelf, they are used for data centers because they have higher power density than batteries and can supply very high peak power levels.

Now there is an option I had never considered.

 

[rbj]

That's why they still won't let us http://www.capitalistchicks.com/?q=node/223", like everyone else.

everyone but NuJoiseyans. no self-serve in NJ.

 

[dr dodge]

what can we infer about people from oregon and jersy?

hhmmmm...

dr

 

[mgb_phys]

what can we infer about people from oregon and jersy?

They have elected representatives who are both concerned for their welfare and aware of the dangers of volatile hydrocarbons?

 

[Borek]

They have elected representatives

I think it would be wise to stop here.

 

[dr dodge]

elected officials with concern?
isn't that like military intellegence?

lol (and no offence ment to anyone)

dr

 

[OmCheeto]

They have elected representatives who are both concerned for their welfare and aware of the dangers of volatile hydrocarbons?

Actually, it was our idea.

In 1982, Oregon voters rejected a ballot measure sponsored by the service station owners, which would have legalized self-service gas.

It never stops raining here you know.

Plus, it keeps our 18 year olds busy.

 

[sophiecentaur]

Having used self service only for decades in the UK, it was refreshing to be served at the pumps by someone in the 'backwoods' of New Hampshire, recently. Where would the movies have been without all those scenes where the couple drive into the gas station and we wonder whether the attendant will spot that they're escaped villains as he cleans their windshield - then he gets shot and they drive off leaving the hose spraying petrol all over the forecourt. I bet the 'officials' didn't think of that scenario in their zeal for safety! That wouldn't happen in self service.
I also got to use a non-automatic pump for the first time in 45 years of driving. I stood like a lemon until I realized you have to move the lever over durrr.